AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: TheChairGuy on 25 Feb 2009, 07:40 pm
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Dear Vinyl Newbies
We, the long-in-the-tooth vinyl fans understand and empathize with your frustration at dialing in your rig totally :(
We lose ourselves in our preferred medium and sometimes forget the beginnings of our (often) long journey into vinyl. It takes some level of knowledge to get the best from your rig...much moreso than line sources.
I/we want to invite you to enjoy your vinyl thoroughly, and invite you to pose any question in this topic that has been vexing you and that has not be answered adequately as yet (here or in any other forum). There is no question 'too stupid' to ask here, no ridicule will be pointed and no hazing ritual allowed :wink: If you don't have a question, just pop in and say 'hi'.
If you don't have a turntable, but are thinking about it...feel free to flesh out your many ideas here if they have not been fully flexed otherwise
Ask away here in this topic if you have not the inclination to make a topic of your own here...and you will get many helping hands here to guide you at the Vinyl Circle.
Thank you,
John / TheChairGuy
Larry / lcrim
Co-Facilitators / The Vinyl Circle @ AudioCircle
(btw, anybody can post here in response to newbies...it's just mostly for newbies to chime in and post)
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I'll go first! I have no turntable yet but would like to get into vinyl this year.
Given that my record collection is less than 10 albums, do you feel it is better to get a 'starter' table around $500 to get a feel for it, or jump in around the 2k mark?
My current issue is, if I buy cheaper and not sure I like it, then I may not be sure if it's because I don't have a good enough setup.
If I jump in with both feet then I will have sunk a lot of money and not have much to listen to (at least initially). Plus then if I don't like it I will probably be out of pocket even more with resale values how they are.
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This is a two part question;
- If a fella wanted to venture into the world of vinyl (and had a TT already), what's a good cheap inexpensive DIY phono preamp project to start with (Bottlehead Seduction???). Preferably tubed. Something that's reasonably respected in the vinyl community, and could be considered a "keeper" for a long period of time. Meaning something that sounds good enough and won't HAVE TO be upgraded anytime soon due to "less than desirable" sound quality. But, that being said, modability to something nicer down the road would be a definite advantage.
- Next; What with this moving coil/moving magnet thing and how do you know what you've got. I've asked this question before, and was given good answers, but it apparently didn't sink in since I didn't remember it. Apparently, preamp choice depends on the type of cartridge you have?? I think.
Good thread Larry and John. You vinyl guys have managed to drag me (kicking and screaming) into wanting vinyl a few times but so far you haven't succeeded. I've been able to resist your dangling carrots. :wink:
Although I am the proud owner of an AR-XA that sounded pretty impressive on a buddy's pair of Maggies.
Thanks guys!
Bob
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I'll go first! I have no turntable yet but would like to get into vinyl this year.
Given that my record collection is less than 10 albums, do you feel it is better to get a 'starter' table around $500 to get a feel for it, or jump in around the 2k mark?
My current issue is, if I buy cheaper and not sure I like it, then I may not be sure if it's because I don't have a good enough setup.
If I jump in with both feet then I will have sunk a lot of money and not have much to listen to (at least initially). Plus then if I don't like it I will probably be out of pocket even more with resale values how they are.
See if you can go listen to a decent analog system near you. Compare CD and Vinyl of the same recording if you can. Then you have to decide how much you are willing to spend and how much effort you are willing to exert on setting up an analog front end.
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Allright, I'll try to answer first here (edit - ohhh, our own Father Theresa/aka woodsyi beat me to the punch :))
mattyturner
Go buy a Technics SL-1200 Mk. II for $450+ and get started. I know of no cheaper (new) turntable that will bring you as much pleasure with as little pain. Start there and move upward as you feel comfortable (or stop there, whatever brings you pleasure).
Buy as many LP's, new or used, as you can afford from there. Down the line, budget in some kinda' cleaning system (many do well by hand washing with ultra-clean water and Dove dishwashing liquid) with good results.
Bob in St. Louis
Tubed DIY phono stage - Go for the Bottlehead or Hagerman's stuff or (my preferred) find a nice, used full function tubed preamp with built in phono stage. Part of getting the best from vinyl is keeping it simple.
Moving Magnet or Moving Coil - what's going on inside the cartridge means little to you...it's how much you like what it does. Without knowing what brand/color or seeing a pic of your cartridge it's impossible to guess what you have there. Nonetheless, in general MM (moving magnets) are cheaper and MC (moving coils) are more costly and tend to be more 'tweeky' (less for newbies and more for experienced types)
That said, there are of course exceptions to nearly any steadfast rule in audio or vinyl, specifically.
Keep 'em coming :thumb:
John
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- Next; What with this moving coil/moving magnet thing and how do you know what you've got. I've asked this question before, and was given good answers, but it apparently didn't sink in since I didn't remember it. Apparently, preamp choice depends on the type of cartridge you have?? I think.
That is my question as well.
Can all tables accept either type of cart?
I have an old Hitachi linear tracking table from the 80's. My preamp does not have a phono input. I guess I need a phono pre to hook it up correct???
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Moving Magnet or Moving Coil - what's going on inside the cartridge means little to you...it's how much you like what it does. Without knowing what brand/color or seeing a pic of your cartridge it's impossible to guess what you have there. Nonetheless, in general MM (moving magnets) are cheaper and MC (moving coils) are more costly and tend to be more 'tweeky' (less for newbies and more for experienced types)
Regarding the type I've got; Apparently the factory arm on a AR-XA is non-changable. So whatever normally comes in the gray plastic headshell O.E. is what's in there.
Thanks guys!
Bob
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MM or MC
The issue for a newcomer has more to do with output than whether its a Moving Magnet or Moving Coil. Cartridges put out a very tiny amount of current that must be amplified before going to a preamp or integrated amp. Moving magnet and high output Moving coils produce a high enough current output that a phono stage described as being for a MM cartridge can be used. Any magnetic cartridge (as opposed to a ceramic cartridge) produces a tiny current by moving a magnet through a stationary coil inducing a current. Moving coils as the name suggests, moves a coil through a magnetic field inducing a small current. There is a cantilever that has the stylus at one end and either the coil or magnet at the other end (Inside the cartridge body.) As the stylus tracks the groove, it moves side to side or up and down and inside the cartridge the coil or the magnet is sending out a small current. The Low output moving coil uses very few coils of wire and the stylus is very light so that a very tiny current is induced, but because of the small masses it is able to react very quickly. Thus more amplification is necessary to get this current up to a usable point. A CD player generally puts out a 2 volt signal. A very sturdy output from a MM cartridge is around 5 mV. so a great deal of amplification is necessary to get this signal up to a usable range. Unfortunately when this much gain is employed, noise can result.
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That is my question as well.
Can all tables accept either type of cart?
I have an old Hitachi linear tracking table from the 80's. My preamp does not have a phono input. I guess I need a phono pre to hook it up correct???
Adding to Larry's excellent answer....that cartridge 'acceptance' is primarily a factor of arm ( compliance matching) and phono-pre ( the lower the output of the cartridge the more gain required by the phono-pre, thus noise issues Larry mentioned)
John's thought relative MM or MC cartridges make sense as said along with the serviceability issue, one does not 'just replace stylus on an MC' (factory repairs are norm)
So max.....yes you will need a 'phono-pre' , and while I'm not familiar with your arm / table hopefully someone else is that can give you a good recomendation for cart / phono-pre match.
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Compliance
Another concept you should become familiar with is compliance. By design, that cantilever is like a leaf spring in an older car. A cartridge is designed to track the groove in the record and depending on the effective mass of the tonearm, and the vertical tracking force set according to the manufacturers spec, it is trying to keep the stylus in the correct position. There is a concept known as the Resonant Frequency which describes the frequency at which the cartridge, reacting to the forces it encounters will continue its up and or sidewise motions like a car with bad shocks. The idea is to adjust the parameters so that the Resonant Frequency is around 9 -10 HZ maybe a bit more each way, so that you get bass reproduction w/o normal household noise getting involved. Moving magnets tend to have relatively higher compliance and therefore work best w/ lighter mass tonearms. Low output moving coils are generally low compliance as well and hence work better w/ higher mass tone arms to absorb some of that resonance . Damping applied to the tone arm is a great help in this area.
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Moving Magnet or Moving Coil - what's going on inside the cartridge means little to you...it's how much you like what it does. Without knowing what brand/color or seeing a pic of your cartridge it's impossible to guess what you have there. Nonetheless, in general MM (moving magnets) are cheaper and MC (moving coils) are more costly and tend to be more 'tweeky' (less for newbies and more for experienced types)
Regarding the type I've got; Apparently the factory arm on a AR-XA is non-changable. So whatever normally comes in the gray plastic headshell O.E. is what's in there.
Thanks guys!
Bob
Bob, you can put any cartridge in your AR headshell, it just has to fit into the space of the headshell. You should have a collection of various screw lengths and washers to secure your cartridge. Don't bottom out the screws in the AR headshell or you'll crack off the plastic bushings. If you are unable to do this, send the headshell and cartridge to me and I will install it.
Wayner
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Thank you Larry for the explanation. Good Stuff!
And Thank You Wayner, not just for the advise, but for the headshell you sold me a while back. I did get it installed (without breaking it......well, actually, Scott F. installed it).
The table was set-up and adjusted, then tested on a pair of Maggies. Very good sound.
But alas, I still haven't had a preamp fall in my lap. Honestly, it'll be aways off before I (finally) get one.
But I am still (very) interested.
Thanks again for your words and time gentleman. I'll be a vinyl spinner eventually. :thumb:
Bob
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OK, I'm an old dude that just starting spinning vinyl again. Due to an indulging spouse (got it right the second time :wink:), I am now the proud owner of a Music Hall MMF 7.1 with a Goldring 2400 MM cartridge and a Jolida JD-9A phono pre. These were placed in my hands and system today and are currently running in. Since I am a tube roller, I pulled the EH 12AX7's and replaced them with a pair of Tungsol 12AX7's...had 'em in stock :dunno: so how could I resist.
Sounds a little closed in, but that should pass as things settle. I never did hear any pre sound as good as it can fresh out of the box.
No real questions at the moment, but I'll stop by to pick the "collective brain" when I'm on line.
Walt
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Ok, I'll try to answer a couple things not picked up by others:
MaxCastRich
A MM or MC cartridge may be used on any (well, nearly any) tonearm. The type of cartridge is only an operating principal...how it fits on your arm is the same.
You may be confusing the issue of compliance....moving coils tend to 'like' heavier arms and moving magnets tend to like lighter arms. See Larry Crim's excellent post regarding compliance (made only better if his 3rd grade teacher had taught him about paragraphs :lol:)
Your linear tracking arm might have an oddity of a mounting system called a 'P' mount. This was devised in the waning days when vinyl was king in the 80's to make fitting a cartridge easier. It's simply a plug-in and much easier to fit a cartridge to. What model is it....and if that's not enough for us to tell you, take a pic of the end of your arm and we'll be able to guide you thru it.
Bob in St. Louis & MaxCastRich
Indeed, one needs either a phono stage in your preamp or buy an external one. Two very inexpensive ones to recommend to get started are the ART DeeJay II (under $50) and the TCC TC-750 ($43.50). You'll likely have to spend 3x as much to get better phono preamps.
These are both moving magnet only models (meaning only moving magnets and high output moving coils can be used)...but for another $25-$60 you can get models from these or other makers that will also amplify tinier low output moving coil signals
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DeeJayPre/
http://www.phonopreamps.com/tc750pp.html
Walt/thebiker
Welcome back to vinyl...and kudo's for learning from prior mistakes :wink:
John
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Walt, welcome back and congrats on the new rig. I'll be interested to hear your listening impressions with your new set-up once you have some time with it, for I had a similar set-up with the mmf 9.1. I could not get the Goldring to work for me, but once I switched to a Benz Micro 'Ace' all was happy again.
Hope it works out better for you !
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I'm afraid that we disagree. Using a high compliance cartridge on a high mass arm, or conversely a low compliance cartridge on a low mass arm can move the Resonant Frequency into the audible range. This is the accepted wisdom. Damping, hydraulic or otherwise can blur this line.
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Damping, as my erstwhile co-conspirator :wink: has indicated...is a method of flattening resonant peaks that occur in the audio hearing range due to 'compliance' relative mis-match of cartridge & arm. It can be fluid (generally silicone), hydraulic, magnetic...and it can work on horizontal or vertical planes (or both at once).
It is also a great aid to warp-induced 'wow' from one's records and can also serve as a mechanical subsonic filter to lower overall noise being amplified thru the chain.
It is a handy thing to have indeed...and I employ it nearly 100% of the time (it's defeatable on my top two tables I own). However, moving coils as part of their design, tend to be well damped internally...so if one adds fluid/mechanical damping to it on the higher mass arms that they generally crave, the result may be dry/dark/overdamped/cramped sonics in the end.
Despite my erstwhile co-conspirators assertion, it is not universally loved or needed for turntables. Getting compliance match is not critical for newbies if you buy a relatively inexpensive MM cartridge to begin...and play on an average/inexpensive turntable, it should be good enough.
Some cartridges, like Grado's, run relatively underdamped internal to their design (that is, there is little or no rubber or other damping on the transmission like of 5-125' of wound wire within) and always benefit from fluid/hydraulic/magnetic damping on cartridges - no matter if the tonearm compliance matches the cartridge. I generally recommend to newbies to stay away from Grado's as they tend to be very tweeky even tho they have some very inexpensive models in their line.
Excess energy can never be truly absorbed by the concept of damping...it can only be deflected or changed into another form (like heat). So damping must be judiciously used and tuned a bit by ear...not something that is easy for a newbie to often set-up and do.
Did any of you newbies just leave us now? :lol: Don't sweat the issue of damping...it's usually a luxury or nuance to the overall sound. 'Compliance' is slightly more important in the pecking order of things, but not usually a deal breaker to enjoy vinyl sonics
Ciao, John
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Thanks guys.
I'm also getting an old Garrard table for free. We'll see what she has in her as well. And yes, John, I do remember the four prong connector. p mount on the Hitachi.
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How to gauge good vinyl? When looking a used records how does one "know" it will play alright? Is it a crap shoot? Obviously, perpendicular scratches are not good :)
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How to gauge good vinyl? When looking a used records how does one "know" it will play alright? Is it a crap shoot? Obviously, perpendicular scratches are not good :)
It is really mostly a crap shoot...unless you are going to Thrift shops with a 10x magnifying loupe to examine every crevice (you certainly will be looked at curiously over the record stacks if you do :roll:)
Here's are tip(s) to put the odds in your favor a bit:
1. Don't buy a STEREO made prior to the late 60's. You are nearly guaranteed to find a record that was used on an abusive record changer (an old stacker where many records sat on top of one another) and it will likely have had a cartridge that had a large spherical/conical tip at heavy tracking forces...nearly guaranteeing groove damage when you receive it in 2009 that is impossible to ignore.
Of course, that takes away lotsa' titles, so you may want to ignore this if there is something you want regardless...but be advised it'll sound very worn most times.
2. MONOPHONIC albums abound and sound best (least scratchy) with a cartridge designed to play them. The groove walls are cut differently and your stereo cartridge will pick up extraneous information that won't be pleasant to hear.
3. If you buy a <60's era album that was originally a MONOPHONIC album now adapted to play STEREOPHONIC...it generally sounds best if you have a 'mono' switch on your preamp (not found widely now, unfortunately)
4. Find a cleaning ritual that works for you and is in your budget. An album cleaned removes gunk that your delicate modern needle must otherwise pass thru. A lot of us vinyl-heads use a record cleaning machine (US$159 - $2500 or so) and chemicals (US$0.05 - $2.00 an ounce) and they all work (nuanced differences only). Many just wash their records in the sink with Dawn detergent or something....and are happy with that, too. No matter what you choose, the benefit of cleaning a record cannot be overlooked for enjoyment.
Less noise and better tracking are the by-products of cleaning.
5. Lotsa' perpendicular or swirling hairline scratches generally mean the record was not handled with care. Tho it's not 100% predictive of issues, it's usually a clue to pass on that record purchase.
6. If an album jacket is worn, the inner sleeve missing or badly torn, copious notes written on the jacket or it smells like marijuana...stay away from it :nono: Somehow in that mess of cues it's telling you the record has led an abused life :(
There's probably more 'tricks' others can tell that'll up the odds of getting good playback from used records....but those are what I have used successfully for 30+ years now.
P-mounts require a P-mount cartridge for your Hitachi. There are few P-mount cartridges today, so you're selection will be morelimited...but the fitting of your cartridge much easier as the mounting method, weight of the cartridge and even compliance was much more standardized to make for easier fitting of cartridge to your table. A fair tradeoff as a cartridge may be only 10% of the critical basis of enjoying vinyl. Here's a bunch to choose from:
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=T4P
John
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twitch54,
After a quick chat with Walter at Underwood HiFi, I found that there was an change that was missed by the literature...the cartridge is actually a MM not a MC. Damn but that makes a difference went setting the switches on a phono pre-amp. So, Walter gave me the correct settings. What a difference a day makes. The midrange opened up, the soundstage expanded and I suddenly remembered why I resisted digital as long as I did. So, with the setup done right, I'm smiling! :D
John/Chair Guy,
I always try not to make the same stupid mistake twice, and this one even has good ears and only likes to listen to her music through a tube system :singing:
Thanks,
Walt
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Thanks for the helpful info, John. I'll be warry of lps that smell like skunk :wink:
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twitch54,
After a quick chat with Walter at Underwood HiFi, I found that there was an change that was missed by the literature...the cartridge is actually a MM not a MC. Damn but that makes a difference went setting the switches on a phono pre-amp. So, Walter gave me the correct settings. What a difference a day makes. The midrange opened up, the soundstage expanded and I suddenly remembered why I resisted digital as long as I did. So, with the setup done right, I'm smiling! :D
Thanks,
Walt
Sweeeet ! ....BTW, I like your avatar...from one "ole' biker to another" ! ....my ride...FLHX
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okay i'll bite too. i sent this question to pro-ject (who routed it to "my regional contact" who i never heard from :duh:). i have a set up question. BTW before i start, might i add i purchased michael fremer's dvd on TT setup and it is excellent, i actually feel like i know what is going on somewhat! my TT is a debut III. my question is about setting up the antiskating weight. i am using a benz MC20E2L with a weight of 4 grams and tracking force of 2-2.5 g. the pro-ject manual states the antiskating force should be set for the mass of the cartridge, then goes on to list the something about the downforce? i'm sorry this isn't very clear to me. should i be basing the anti-skate on the cartridge weight (4 grams = 40mN) or the downforce (as stated by benz, set for 2 grams = 20mN)? also i am thinking about getting a speed box II for this TT, should i use the smaller pulley for this? i hope some of this made sense to anyone, thanx all for your help and valuable advice!
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ratso
Okay, here goes. The anti-skating is usually set at about the same range of the tracking force...the weight, or mass, of the cartridge does not determine this.
I have actually found that 60-80% of the tracking force is normally the right range for anti-skating.
If you're running your Benz at 2.5gram (usually, you run tracking force at the high end of the normal range a manufacturer gives you), you can set the anti-skating at about 1.5 to 2 grams and you should be enjoying hi quality tune-age :thumb:
Don't get caught up in getting the anti-skating perfectly...it's a nuance, not a must. Dialing in the tracking force correctly is MUCH more important, overall.
Your second question, about the Speedbox (or SE) is easy to answer. There is no need at all to change the pulley. You simply plug the AC cord into the Speedbox and the Speedbox into the wall. The Speedbox regulates the voltage so that you have better speed control and the 33/45 switching is now done with the Speedbox and not at the table level (more convenient this way)
It's all automatic, you need not do anything to enjoy the (relatively inexpensive) upgrade :)
Pro-ject is great about providing everything needed to understand their products on their site. For the Speedbox, see here: http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/en/manual/manual_speedbox.pdf
Regards, John 8)
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OK. Heres another one. When is the arm balanced properly? At first I use to balanace my arm to be perfectly perpendicular to the plith. But found that things sound better when I balanced the arm so that the stylus hovered just slightly above the album. Thoughts?
Ric
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Hey John,just want to say this is a great thread and you're doing a great job helping us vinylphools to better enjoy this medium.You're the man :thumb: keep the good work up and the information coming.derockster :D
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OK. Heres another one. When is the arm balanced properly? At first I use to balanace my arm to be perfectly perpendicular to the plith. But found that things sound better when I balanced the arm so that the stylus hovered just slightly above the album. Thoughts?
Ric
Ric
A tracking force scale will run $15 (the venerable Shure and Ortofons) to $60+ (fancy, but more accurate electronic ones). Once employed, you will be able to do away with the whole 'balancing act' and focus only on the right numbers for your particular cartridge, rather than where to balance the arm.
The balancing and turning the counterweight set-up is rife with potential errors and getting the tracking force right is in the higher echelon of important stuff with vinyl.
For $24, including $4 shipping, you can buy a simple tracking force gauge and bubble level: www.turntablebasics.com
It's worth the small investment if you're getting the love you need with vinyl :) (maybe your Pro-ject has a bubble level built in?)
derockster
It's amazingly pleasant, excited, vinyl-loving audiophools like you that make me want to take more valuable time (that is in short supply recently for me, I assure you) to help out. Thank YOU :thumb:
John
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I always float the arm first to establish the zero point. Twist the counterweight until the arm floats, The point that it floats at is where any more weight would cause it to start downwards. Set that as the zero point with the indicator.
I usually start with a reading that is in the higher part of the range suggested by the manufacturer. Then I try going down a few tenths and listen for changes. I just try different settings and listening. When I get sick of messing w/ it I stop.
I've tried using a force gauge. I tend to trust what my ears are telling me.
With regard to antiskate, I usually set it to coincide with the tracking force. I try a little less and a little more and listen. Again I let my ears make the choice.
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a (late) thank you, mr. chair guy! your insight was very helpful, as is this thread. i really appreciate you keeping the focus here simple (i really appreciate other people chiming in but with their advanced TT knowledge it sometimes tends to go way over us newbie's heads). :oops:
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Cool bro - you're welcome :thumb:
John
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so while we're at it, here's another question that i never figured out and i bet other noobs wonder this too. is there some down and dirty way to determine how to match your cartridge to your phonostage input impedance (i think that's what it's called)? my phonostage allows me to choose 47K, 1K, 100 or 10 ohms. i have kind of determined that 100 ohms is a good starting point for my MC cartridge (from poking around online) but i have no idea why. is it merely done by ear? is there any science to it? is there some complex math problem i could do to figure it out? (if MC = X, then...)
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ratso
Mr. Hagerman provides an online calculator for this kinda' thing :thumb:
There are several issues in this, tho. First off, precious few cartridge makers offer up inductance figures. Fewer still turntable makers offer up capacitance values for their tonearms and or turntable leads.
Then, assuming you can scrounge these values up and load into the calculator....the final numbers often are incorrect in real world listening. So, yes, you are left to use your own ears in the end 8)
100ohms has almost become the de facto standard for low output moving coils......but, many feel this is too low. Listen at 1K and see how you like it. There is even a small group of low output moving coil enthusiasts that like 47K loading. Unless your cartirdge is a real oddity (very low inductance values), the 10 ohm setting is rarely used.
Listen for yourself...like most things in audio, if you think it sounds good, it IS good :)
John
VPI HW-19 Mk. III turntable for sale: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65353.0
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On the topic of p-mount cartridges:
Kevin @ KABUSA.com helped me select a Ortofon OMP-20 (http://www.kabusa.com/ortofon.htm#t4p1) for my old Technics TT... I've been quite pleased with it. But then again, being a relative newbie I probably don't know what I don't know, if you know what I mean.
I saw this (http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ORX1MCP) the other day and was wondering what a moving coil cartridge might offer.
My real p-mount question is... It's such a no-brainer compared to installing a standard mount... what's the opportunity cost in terms of sound quality?
Perhaps the best option is to amass a stable of TTs to really figure this all out? :lol:
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In my mind, the MC is a black hole to poverty. You don't see too many $5K MM's. In my book, Over priced and Over rated. They should be called OO.
Wayner aa
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I saw this (http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ORX1MCP) the other day and was wondering what a moving coil cartridge might offer.
My real p-mount question is... It's such a no-brainer compared to installing a standard mount... what's the opportunity cost in terms of sound quality?
It's worth a shot to hear a moving coul for yourself. I own the (now) $400 Ortofon X5-MC (non-p mount) and it does a lot of things right. It does several things wrong, too, like tepid bass and soft dynamics, which keep it from my top 5.
Perhaps the best option is to amass a stable of TTs to really figure this all out? :lol:
Amass a stable of TT's and cartridges you might end up at (12 cartridges and 5 TT's now :oops:)
But, there is no substitute for trail & error, so I'm dang pleased with what I've learned along the way.
John 8)
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twitch54,
Glad you like my avatar....it is what I ride, FLHT. Ooops, the avatar is a Road King, my previous ride. Now I'm on a 2007 FLHT.
After a couple of minor adjustments and close to 20 hours of playing time things have settled in to the point that I can't believe I was away from vinyl for this long. Back when I was still spinning vinyl, I didn't pop for this good a table and I as using the on-board phono pre-amp of an Onkyo Integra Integrated Amp, don't remember the model #, but it was solid state.
This inexpensive Jolida tube pre with a couple of Tung-sol 12AX7's is better than it has any right to be at its price point :thumb:. The entire vinyl rig is quiet, dynamic and organic in its delivery :drool:, OK, I'll wipe my chin now. Even at MSRP, this rig would be a steal. At a bunch less than that it is killer!
I guess you can say I'm glad I have returned from the dark side!
Walt
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I saw this (http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ORX1MCP) the other day and was wondering what a moving coil cartridge might offer.
My real p-mount question is... It's such a no-brainer compared to installing a standard mount... what's the opportunity cost in terms of sound quality?
It's worth a shot to hear a moving coil for yourself. I own the (now) $400 Ortofon X5-MC (non-p mount) and it does a lot of things right. It does several things wrong, too, like tepid bass and soft dynamics, which keep it from my top 5.
Perhaps the best option is to amass a stable of TTs to really figure this all out? :lol:
Amass a stable of TT's and cartridges you might end up at (12 cartridges and 5 TT's now :oops:)
But, there is no substitute for trail & error, so I'm dang pleased with what I've learned along the way.
John 8)
A low output moving coil will require an additional investments in a pre-preamp, because the output is too low for a standard phono preamp. Even if you have a higher output moving coil, you will probably still want a pre-preamp because, you will hear noise (tube rush). So this an expense that you won't have with a moving magnet.
Another point to consider is the stylus shape. The most forgiving to issues like VTA and Azimuth is the elliptical stylus. When you have a line contact stylus, you will find that these adjustments are much more rigorous.
Starting off with a good moving magnet with an elliptical stylus is the least expensive and simplest approach. As The Chair Guy said, going with moving coil is significantly more expensive. So what do you get for your money and aggravation? Because the coil is much lighter than the magnet you get lower mass, which can provide for additional sound quality, but only after you through the additional expense and setup complexity. If you have a line contact stylus, you will hear a difference in sound quality between a 150gram and 200gram record, and this implies adjusting VTA. All of this can provide amazing sound quality, but you need to be an audio techno bigot to go through all of this rigor.
So starting off, I think that a good moving magnet with an elliptical stylus will be much simpler and less expensive. Then if you continue with this mania you can upgrade from a normal person to an Audio Techno Bigot!
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In my mind, the MC is a black hole to poverty. You don't see too many $5K MM's. In my book, Over priced and Over rated. They should be called OO.
Wayner aa
LOL. I guess that's one of the advantages of p-mounts... there aren't many choices. The $180 Ortofon I linked to above is the only p-mount MC I've ever seen. But standard mounts... apparently the $ky'$ the limit!
Amass a stable of TT's and cartridges you might end up at (12 cartridges and 5 TT's now :oops:)
But, there is no substitute for trail & error, so I'm dang pleased with what I've learned along the way.
John 8)
Oh yeah... spending time here is what's got me thinking... I've been eyeing up a certain VPI being sold in the Trading Post.. aa (I wish!)
A low output moving coil will require an additional investments in a pre-preamp, because the output is too low for a standard phono preamp. Even if you have a higher output moving coil, you will probably still want a pre-preamp because, you will hear noise (tube rush). So this an expense that you won't have with a moving magnet.
I'm on a slow and quiet upgrade path and am still leveraging the phono section of my Denon 3801 AV receiver. Next on the list may well be the Jolida JD-9 that Thebiker is enjoying soo much... seems this can handle about any cartridge on any table I might end up talking myself into. :drool:
Another point to consider is the stylus shape. The most forgiving to issues like VTA and Azimuth is the elliptical stylus. When you have a line contact stylus, you will find that these adjustments are much more rigorous.
All of this can provide amazing sound quality, but you need to be an audio techno bigot to go through all of this rigor.
So starting off, I think that a good moving magnet with an elliptical stylus will be much simpler and less expensive. Then if you continue with this mania you can upgrade from a normal person to an Audio Techno Bigot!
Thanks for the stylus info!
As for VTA and Azimuth, along with all the other rigors of vinyl... that's really what I was trying to ask, and worded so poorly. My TT's a complete no-brainer: fully automatic, no VTA / Azimuth adjustability, plug and play p-mount cartridge, can't swap arms, etc... but dayum, after stuffing it with clay as well as a few other inexpensive tweaks, as long as the LP is clean, it sound so great compared to redbook.
So what are the sonic advantags of the "real" tables, the ones I read about here that you guys know and love so well, and all the beauties I see on Agon etc, compared to my Technics?
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So starting off, I think that a good moving magnet with an elliptical stylus will be much simpler and less expensive. Then if you continue with this mania you can upgrade from a normal person to an Audio Techno Bigot!
Thanks for the stylus info!
As for VTA and Azimuth, along with all the other rigors of vinyl... that's really what I was trying to ask, and worded so poorly. My TT's a complete no-brainer: fully automatic, no VTA / Azimuth adjustability, plug and play p-mount cartridge, can't swap arms, etc... but dayum, after stuffing it with clay as well as a few other inexpensive tweaks, as long as the LP is clean, it sound so great compared to redbook.
So what are the sonic advantags of the "real" tables, the ones I read about here that you guys know and love so well, and all the beauties I see on Agon etc, compared to my Technics?
Thats a tough question. The advantages relate to amazing sound. When everything is working right, you can hear all of the details down to the Nat walking across a silent cymbal. When I go back to CD's, I often miss all of the low level detail. I say often, because there are exceptions. I find myself searching on Ebay to purchase copies of great recordings. So far my favorites are from Sheffield Labs. I set a reasonable limit, and often find great records are ~$10.
But when I can get my wife to listen, she says "so what." I ask her what she thinks about all of the low level detail, and she says "I don't care." So it depends upon you and the hobby. But if you love it like I do, then it's a lot of fun and worth it.
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A lot of relevant comments here for those new to vinyl ... but, as I read through all the posts (and, no, I'm not going to re-read them so I'll just hope I do remember what I wanted to remember! :lol: ), there were a couple of points which I felt weren't made clearly. So I'll put down my 2c worth:
* while, when I am "seriously listening", I listen to vinyl, say, 95% of the time - because I've been buying LPs for nearly 40 years and have quite a few (and am still buying them :D ) - I wonder if a "newbie" who has 10 LPs should, seriously, be recommended to plunge into a mainstream vinyl system?
Yes, you can quite easily buy (generally through the Internet, not so much bricks & mortar) second-hand LPs as well as new "audiophile" reissues of pop, jazz & classical ... and some new recording as well, they cost a lot - even used LPs. So buying 500 LPs will cost heaps more than buying the same music on 500 CDs.
And the sound of a $1,000 TT/arm/cartridge/phono stage combo will I suspect be beaten by a $1,000 CDP. :o But almost no CDP will sound better than a $20,000 vinyl setup (which is not super hi-end, by any means :o ).
But if you spend $20K on vinyl hardware ... you'd better have a heap of LPs to listen to, to justify the expenditure! :lol: Just think of the CDs you could buy for the same outlay, if you bought a top-class CDP for $10K!
* While I personally listen to a LOMC (Benz Ebony LP @ 0.28mV) because I believe they sound best, this typically means you need a step-up device as well as your phono stage. Just another layer of complication. :(
I suggest a top class MM - costing, say US$500-$1K - will outclass most MCs costing double that amount ... or more! And its 5mV output will be fine for any phono stage. Then again, the top MCs will cost many times the cost of that MM ... but will deliver the goods, providing you have the right step-up device. :D
* If you're serious about vinyl then you need an RCM - another $500! :) Plus every 3 years or so, you need a new stylus (retip, in the case of an MC ... which costs more than many MMs!) Compare that to a CD-only environment! :o
And it's a right royal PITA to have to clean LPs - but if you don't, you'll have a "Rice Bubbles" listening experience! :D But if you do, when you play some vinyl, unsuspecting vistors will think they're listening to a CD ... xept it sounds a whole lot better! :lol:
* CD playing is so simple by comparison - put the CD in the tray and press "play". In contrast, to get optimal vinyl reproduction, you need to have:
a) adjusted VTF, VTA, bias and azimuth correctly.
b) tracked the no. of hours your stylus has been used, so you haven't got to the stage where it has become a chisel.
c) clean the records with an RCM - in particular, removing all static.
d) perfectly flat LPs! :roll: , and
e) to store them correctly ... and LPs take up considerably more storage space than CDs.
* Of course, some say CDs are on their way out and there's certainly some truth in that. We should all be moving to PC-based music delivery and transfer all of our current CDs & LPs to hard drive. Trouble is, with a big vinyl collection this is a superhuman task! :cry:
Regards,
Andy
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Yes, you can quite easily buy (generally through the Internet, not so much bricks & mortar) second-hand LPs as well as new "audiophile" reissues of pop, jazz & classical ... and some new recording as well, they cost a lot - even used LPs. So buying 500 LPs will cost heaps more than buying the same music on 500 CDs.
And the sound of a $1,000 TT/arm/cartridge/phono stage combo will I suspect be beaten by a $1,000 CDP. :o But almost no CDP will sound better than a $20,000 vinyl setup (which is not super hi-end, by any means :o ).
But if you spend $20K on vinyl hardware ... you'd better have a heap of LPs to listen to, to justify the expenditure! :lol: Just think of the CDs you could buy for the same outlay, if you bought a top-class CDP for $10K!
* While I personally listen to a LOMC (Benz Ebony LP @ 0.28mV) because I believe they sound best, this typically means you need a step-up device as well as your phono stage. Just another layer of complication. :(
I suggest a top class MM - costing, say US$500-$1K - will outclass most MCs costing double that amount ... or more! And its 5mV output will be fine for any phono stage. Then again, the top MCs will cost many times the cost of that MM ... but will deliver the goods, providing you have the right step-up device. :D
* If you're serious about vinyl then you need an RCM - another $500! :) Plus every 3 years or so, you need a new stylus (retip, in the case of an MC ... which costs more than many MMs!) Compare that to a CD-only environment! :o
And it's a right royal PITA to have to clean LPs - but if you don't, you'll have a "Rice Bubbles" listening experience! :D But if you do, when you play some vinyl, unsuspecting visitors will think they're listening to a CD ... except it sounds a whole lot better! :lol:
* CD playing is so simple by comparison - put the CD in the tray and press "play". In contrast, to get optimal vinyl reproduction, you need to have:
a) adjusted VTF, VTA, bias and azimuth correctly.
b) tracked the no. of hours your stylus has been used, so you haven't got to the stage where it has become a chisel.
c) clean the records with an RCM - in particular, removing all static.
d) perfectly flat LPs! :roll: , and
e) to store them correctly ... and LPs take up considerably more storage space than CDs.
* Of course, some say CDs are on their way out and there's certainly some truth in that. We should all be moving to PC-based music delivery and transfer all of our current CDs & LPs to hard drive. Trouble is, with a big vinyl collection this is a superhuman task! :cry:
Regards,
Andy
I agree with most of what has been listed above, except for the cost. Yes it is true that a moving coil setup is more expensive, but how much more:
1. Pre-preamp (stepup) - It is true that you will need a stepup transformer, and while you can spend $1500, you can also find some that are very good for $300.
2. Cartridge - You can spend thousands ($5000 or more), or you can spend ~$500 and get a very good cartridge. Furthermore, most moving coils can be hotrodded by adding a contour line contact re-tipping for roughly $350. These re-tipping jobs can make a $500 cartridge sound like a $6000 dollar cartridge.
3. Turntable - Yes the $500 turntable might not be good enough, but spending $2000 for something like a VPI Scout is pretty acceptable.
4. Record cleaning machine - This really helps, and the price is $325 and up.
If you go with the above approach, you can have an outstanding moving coil vinyl setup for an additional $2200 to $2600, which will definitely be better than CD's. Is it worth it? It depends upon your passion for the hobby.
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As the topic has to do with newbies....some/most of what JCC & andyr have mentioned above doesn't have too much to do with your collective needs. Their comments well overshoot the mark in this topic...but are helpful to refer to in passing later when you are more invested in the vinyl experience.
I suspect the typical newbie to vinyl wants to get into it for <$1000 with everything....table, phono stage, & cartridge.
Today (new), that's pretty much...
Table choices: Technics Sl-1200, some current Thorens, Denon, Pro-ject, Music Hall or Rega's or vintage tables
Cartridge choices: Moving Magnets from Audio Technica, Ortofon, Grado, Nagoaka, Goldring, and others or vintage (preferably NOS with cartridges)
Phono stage: From Project, Cambridge, Rega, DIY and others or vintage (or move to full featured preamps, integrated's or receivers with MM phono stage)
Optional, but worthwhile: A record cleaning machine. The least expensive I know of it KAB's EV-1 for $169.00. if you have your own hi-suction vacuum cleaner already you can use it's motor and it becomes a very inexpensive option to buy a RCM :thumb:
The rest, if your budget has some shekels left....would be for the vinyl itself...which can cost as little as US$1.00 per at thrift shops or $30.00 for newly made.
Let's keep it very simple in this topic gents....this is for newbies who are either thinking of getting into vinyl or just gotten into it and are still quite tentative about it.
John
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Thanks John and sorry :oops: if I helped steer the dialog away from the intended direction.
Here's an an interesting article that seems to complement your last post... from Positive Feedback, entitled
$1000 Worth of Sound for $100 (or less): Refurbishing a Vintage Turntable (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/turntables.htm).
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No sorries needed, Paul/miney (from anyone for that matter)
Vinyl sounds great and folks are excited about it....not the worst thing to happen to an audiophile :wink:
I just wanted to steer the topic back specifically to the needs of the newbie. Many of us tend to talk esoteric stuff amongst ourselves, but we lose the potential newbie in doing so as there is just so much to take in with vinyl (relative to line sources)
This is a pretty busy circle now....and it would be great to see it busier with new, excited vinylista's out there :thumb:
John
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One other point, is that you can put together a system that beats CD's for a lot less than $20K. The fact is that an outstanding moving coil system can be implemented, but it will cost you ~$2600 more than a good moving magnet system. So start with moving magnet, and you can advance if you catch the fever.
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i (as a REAL noob) thinks this is a good time to mention that anyone that is getting scared off by this talk of $20K systems can get a very nice (and we're talking practically brand new sexy wow looking) setup in the huge vinyl used market. audiogon has all sorts of killer rega's, pro-jects, music halls, etc. get yourself a ferrari red TT and blow your friends minds, and CHEAP too. also many come already setup with like new cartridges (or you can get them cheap too, along with a phonostage preamp if you need one). my whole first system was about $700 but: #1 i bought everything brand new (because i wanted a blue debut III - my wife's favorite color, to get her to say yes of course) #2 i upgraded to a more expensive cartridge. i could have done it a lot cheaper.
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i (as a REAL noob) thinks this is a good time to mention that anyone that is getting scared off by this talk of $20K systems can get a very nice (and we're talking practically brand new sexy wow looking) setup in the huge vinyl used market. audiogon has all sorts of killer rega's, pro-jects, music halls, etc. get yourself a ferrari red TT and blow your friends minds, and CHEAP too. also many come already setup with like new cartridges (or you can get them cheap too, along with a phonostage preamp if you need one). my whole first system was about $700 but: #1 i bought everything brand new (because i wanted a blue debut III - my wife's favorite color, to get her to say yes of course) #2 i upgraded to a more expensive cartridge. i could have done it a lot cheaper.
Right on - With a little bit of common sense you can put together a very good system without spending a small fortune.
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I'll chime in to agree with ratso's comment above. You can easily spend less than $1k to get sound that is better than CD.
Based on lots of research and a little listening - and without any prior TT experience, a little over a year ago, I put together my first vinyl set up for just above the price of my DAC for the TT + cart + phono amp ($1600)... higher since I started out with a few tweeks and purchased new. Now I hear the beauty of vinyl. Now I can really appreciate those analog gurus who have amassed years of experience via lots of spins, tweeks, and modifications.
Vinyl is just fun.
And FWIW, I still don't know what cartridge "compliance" is.
ed
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i (as a REAL noob) thinks this is a good time to mention that anyone that is getting scared off by this talk of $20K systems can get a very nice (and we're talking practically brand new sexy wow looking) setup in the huge vinyl used market. audiogon has all sorts of killer rega's, pro-jects, music halls, etc. get yourself a ferrari red TT and blow your friends minds, and CHEAP too. also many come already setup with like new cartridges (or you can get them cheap too, along with a phonostage preamp if you need one). my whole first system was about $700 but: #1 i bought everything brand new (because i wanted a blue debut III - my wife's favorite color, to get her to say yes of course) #2 i upgraded to a more expensive cartridge. i could have done it a lot cheaper.
Right on - With a little bit of common sense you can put together a very good system without spending a small fortune.
I just wanted to add some reassurance that it dose not take a lot of money to get into vinyl. My first TT was a Pro-Ject Xpersion w/cart for $500.00. But I also had the forsight to purchase my preamp with a phone section. Now if only some one would but my RM9.1 so I can get that SME table :green:
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And FWIW, I still don't know what cartridge "compliance" is.
ed
Hi Ed,
Cartridge compliance is a measure of how stiff the suspension is - ie. how much the cantilever changes angle as the arm lowers itself and the full tracking weight comes into play.
There is a relationship between compliance, the weight of the cartridge and the "effective weight" of the arm ... hence, for good tracking, carts with low compliance are suitable for some arms, and carts with high compliance (ie. which I think means very "bendy" :D ) are suitable for others. Can't tell you which one is better with what, though ... hopefully someone else will chime in. :D
Regards,
Andy
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You can easily spend less than $1k to get sound that is better than CD.
While not trying to spoil everybodys party here I must point out that the above quote, on the surface, is not true !
As one of the 'old farts' here I love to see it when you young guys get excited about analog, but remember we do need to realize that there is plenty of good CD material and quality CDP's to play it on at and below 1k.
With respect to the quote above, it actually takes carefull thought and execution to put together a good sub 1k analog rig, whereas one can assemble an Oppo CDP along with an outboard DAC (benchmark, etc) and with good RBCD's (yes they are out there !) put forth a very good set-up.
So, lets keep the enthusiasm up and at the same time be realistic !
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In my mind, the MC is a black hole to poverty. You don't see too many $5K MM's. In my book, Over priced and Over rated. They should be called OO.
Wayner aa
Umm, is that OO like "ooohh..." or like "uh, oh"
Paul
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Umm, is that OO like "ooohh..." or like "uh, oh"
Paul
Hehe - the former, I suggest!! :thumb: Except it's more "oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh"! :lol:
It would seem wayner hasn't heard the cream of the LOMCs! :D
Regards,
Andy
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I'm reminded of the reason I went to CDs 20 years ago.
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I'm reminded of the reason I went to CDs 20 years ago.
And every night I get reminded of why I didn't ! :thumb:
Regards,
Andy
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I think some sort of record cleaning device is essential for new adopters. I know a couple of people who got disenchanted real fast because of noisy records that I was able to clean to very acceptable levels. You don't have to buy a vacuum machine. There are manual methods that I think equal or better results you gte from a vacuum machine. I use the G.E.M. Dandy system--$150, and it has improved LPs that were previously cleaned on a Nitty Gritty. There is also the Mapleshade steam cleaning system at $150.
http://www.gmanalog.com/gm.aspx
John K.
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Given the amount of "Technics" support on this forum me thinks this would be a pretty good deal !!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10050618
I can't imagine them being had much cheaper !
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Given the amount of "Technics" support on this forum me thinks this would be a pretty good deal !!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10050618
I can't imagine them being had much cheaper !
That's a good price - about $75 cheaper than what Kevin sells them for at kabusa.com... but personally, I'd probably order one from Kevin, :thumb: because he offers some value adds that I would not want to worry about or take on myself. :duh:
Per the kabusa.com (http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/1200bld.htm) website, he performs a "rigorous inspection and makes corrections as required to ensure that every Custom KAB 1200 performs correctly." He'll also install hinges for the dust cover and adds an audiophile mat. Even better, Kevin will help you select a good cartridge, and will install it for free. Match that, Walmart. :lol:
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Umm, is that OO like "ooohh..." or like "uh, oh"
Paul
Hehe - the former, I suggest!! :thumb: Except it's more "oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh"! :lol:
It would seem wayner hasn't heard the cream of the LOMCs! :D
Regards,
Andy
No, so I've got that going for me. When I hear the cream of the LOMCs, on my death bead, I will receive total consciousness. And that's all she wrote.
Wayner
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LOMC.......... :scratch:
I tried to Google it:
LOMC= Letter of Map Change
LOMC= Lutheran Outdoor Ministries Center (Oregon, Illinois)
LOMC= Logistics Operations Management Center
LOMC= Low-Octane Mogas Component
Somehow I doubt any of that fits here? :dunno:
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low output moving coil.
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Thank you Don. :thumb:
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Thank you Don. :thumb:
Bob's puzzled question on 'LOMC' is why we want this topic to be as simple as possible. We have our own language in vinyl-land, and it takes considerable time and effort for newbies to understand it. As life is pretty stressful and full of deadlines, most newbies will look at it like learning Mandarin...and likely leave before taking it on.
Let's keep this post as simple as possible. Spell out what you mean - LOMC, VTA, VTF, W&F, 20cu, the Grado 'dance', etc are terms hard for newbies (even experienced folks) to wrap their minds around :( We want more folks involved in vinyl - we know it's the highest resolution format of music available - and without new arrivals it'll die for certain.
Thx, John
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Yes. Speak down to us like we're idiots. Cause we are. :wink:
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i'm in the medical field and whenever someone wants something explained to them, a frequent scenario is this: doctor comes in to room, tries to explain what is going on to patient. patient has no idea what the hell is going on after having it explained to them but is too embarrassed to say so. after doctor leaves, they say to me "what did he say?". i then explain it to them, trying to keep in mind 'how would i explain this to my 11 year old daughter'. this approach does not offend people, and they don't feel talked down to - they appreciate being actually able to finally understand what is going on.
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This is a newbie TT setup question.
I was surprised by this when it happened to me tonight.
TT ground wires are often too short or not properly connected which usually causes hum problems. So today I received a new (to me) tube phono amp and used the same ground wire that I had used with my other phono amp. There was major speaker hum with this tube phono amp in my system- the hum was about 12db (@54.5 - 43db ambient). My SS phono amp has zero hum.
I started looking up alternate connection options online. I also disconnected and reconnected all the TT cables. It was still there. Tried connecting the phono amp power to my CIAudio DC filter- the same hum. Attempting another connection for the ground. I completely disconnected the wire from the phono amp and turned on the system - NO HUM. Zero.
Questions:
1. So I had no idea that I could run the TT without connecting the ground wire. Is it typically optional?
2. Is the phono amp or integrated amp/ receiver the only device that sould be used for the other end of the ground wire?
3. What is the best type of wire to use to make a replacement or extension ground wire?
Thanks, and hope this helps other vinyl newbies.
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This is a two part question;
- If a fella wanted to venture into the world of vinyl (and had a TT already), what's a good cheap inexpensive DIY phono preamp project to start with (Bottlehead Seduction???). Preferably tubed. Something that's reasonably respected in the vinyl community, and could be considered a "keeper" for a long period of time. Meaning something that sounds good enough and won't HAVE TO be upgraded anytime soon due to "less than desirable" sound quality. But, that being said, modability to something nicer down the road would be a definite advantage.
- Next; What with this moving coil/moving magnet thing and how do you know what you've got. I've asked this question before, and was given good answers, but it apparently didn't sink in since I didn't remember it. Apparently, preamp choice depends on the type of cartridge you have?? I think.
Good thread Larry and John. You vinyl guys have managed to drag me (kicking and screaming) into wanting vinyl a few times but so far you haven't succeeded. I've been able to resist your dangling carrots. :wink:
Although I am the proud owner of an AR-XA that sounded pretty impressive on a buddy's pair of Maggies.
Thanks guys!
Bob
Bob
Bill Berndt's DIY tube MM phono preamp parts cost about $150 IIRC (but don't quote me). It sounded absolutely fantastic when I heard it several weeks ago. It's on my to do list if I decide to go back to RIAA (currently using straingauge cartridge & demodulator). I heard Bill's preamp w/ low-output MC & old Altec transformer step-up. It really kicked buttooski.
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Hey Jim, that's good information to know. When I'm ready to venture back into TT's, I'll look him up.
Is there a thread about it somewhere?
Thank you!
Bob
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Hey Jim, that's good information to know. When I'm ready to venture back into TT's, I'll look him up.
Is there a thread about it somewhere?
Thank you!
Bob
No idea if Bill posted about that preamp. Readers may recognize his name & contact him as the Bay Area facileee-tater (& such a great one ideeed)!
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Hi,
Okay I'm still having problems with my turntable setup and I hope I can get some advice. After replacing the motor, then finding out the new motor was slightly different which caused the pulley to sit too high on the platter (made the turntable unplayable).
I decided to contact bluenote and they supplied me with a few parts and advised placing washers under the platter to raise the platter. I did this but then the tonearm was sitting too low. Bluenote told me how to raise the tonearm to ensure that the vertical tracking angle was okay. I installed a new lifting mechanism for the tonearm to make it easier to use, a new bluenote babele high output moving cartridge and a friend engineered a spacer instead of using the washers to raise the platter (the washers were not even enough and cause further problems).
I bought an ortofon cartridge alignment tool and tracking force guage. I levelled the tonearm so that it was horizontal with the record but then the cartridge was not level and I decided to use the bottom of the cartridge for my aligning vertical tracking angle. I now have the cartridge horizontal to the record. The last time I fitted a cartridge was about 20 years ago and I would like a little bit of help to ensure that I have it aligned correctly (any advice is greatly appreciated).
I now a lot of surface noise that I didn't have using a denon dl103, turntable's platter sits at the right height, I think I have the vta and cartridge aligned correctly. Btw the cartridge vertical tracking force is 1.4 gram. Turn the record on and older records it sounds really bad. There is so much surface noise that it makes it unpleasant to listen to. I think perhaps my older records just need a good clean. I can't afford a record cleaning machine because the cheapest in australia is about $750au in Australia.
I'm thinking of purchasing G.E.M. Dandy Hydraulic Record Cleaning Apparatus. Has anyone used it? It sells for $200au here in Australia?
1. Can anyone provide information regarding cartridge alignment? I think I have vta correct?
2. Would a 1.4 tracking force provide more surface noise?
Regards
Rod
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Hey all,
I am still curious about these ground wire questions:
This is a newbie TT setup question.
I was surprised by this when it happened to me tonight.
TT ground wires are often too short or not properly connected which usually causes hum problems. So today I received a new (to me) tube phono amp and used the same ground wire that I had used with my other phono amp. There was major speaker hum with this tube phono amp in my system- the hum was about 12db (@54.5 - 43db ambient). My SS phono amp has zero hum.
I started looking up alternate connection options online. I also disconnected and reconnected all the TT cables. It was still there. Tried connecting the phono amp power to my CIAudio DC filter- the same hum. Attempting another connection for the ground. I completely disconnected the wire from the phono amp and turned on the system - NO HUM. Zero.
Questions:
1. So I had no idea that I could run the TT without connecting the ground wire. Is it typically optional?
2. Is the phono amp or integrated amp/ receiver the only device that should be used for the other end of the ground wire?
3. What is the best type of wire to use to make a replacement or extension ground wire?
Thanks, and hope this helps other vinyl newbies.
ed
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Ed,
I'm not an expert but have been doing this for some time. I have always had a turntable in my system.
1. Apparently you were creating a ground loop and getting the hum. I would say yes, the ground is optional. I get no difference here with it connected or not. It is not a dangerous situation.A tube Phono Pre can be a little more noisy than Soild State Phono Pre.
Lifting the ground on a power cable using a "cheater plug" may be dangerous in that situation. I would say that is a last resort solution.
2. You typically connect the ground to what your tonearm interconnects are connected to. Either the receiver or Phono Pre amp. I have 2 ground wires, one is on the bearing and the other the Tonearm cables. The bearing wire bleeds off any static pops and clicks through the spindle. I have an acrylic platter that can build up static from the album. Both of these wires are connected to the Phono Pre ground post.
3.The ground wire just needs to be a stranded copper 14-16-18 Ga. That is all I have ever seen being used usually a spade connector on the end. You can also use a bare tinned wire with no problem.
I hope this helps you out.
D
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Thanks bacobits1 for the info,
I figured I had a ground loop issue. really surprised that the other pre didn't do the same since they were both connected to the same power outlet (outlet is a belkin power center). will try a few different power outlet configs.
cheers,
ed
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I'm using a Brick Wall 8 outlet AUD version for many years now.
If I plug the amp into it and everything else (all tubes) I get a low level hum. I won't use a "cheater" plug on the amp. If I plug the amp in the wall where it is now it's dead quiet. Go figure.
You just never know when or where this will pop up. In my other houses I never had a problem in 10 years where I plugged anything. Lots of equipment changes too.
Den
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since i last chimed in here, i have also been fighting the dreaded ground loop hum. actually nothing new to me, i have ALWAYS been fighting this battle (at least since i have decided to go to a tube preamp). i think as of yesterday i have the problem licked, but when i got rid of the hum and could actually hear my TT, i realized i have another noise buried under all that hum. it is rumble? doing a quick google search has lead me to find out that it is a common occurrence in TT's and usually comes from the bearings? to make sure this is really what i have, let me point out that i hear it most easily without a record playing. i don't really notice any rumble with an album on (but that may be because the music covers it up). i have read that there are 'rumble filters' that you can buy, anyone have any experience with these/suggestions?
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The only "rumble filters" I've heard of have to do with subwoofer amplifiers.
I'm not a vinyl guy, so that's about as far as I can take you.
Bob
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since i last chimed in here, i have also been fighting the dreaded ground loop hum. actually nothing new to me, i have ALWAYS been fighting this battle (at least since i have decided to go to a tube preamp). i think as of yesterday i have the problem licked, but when i got rid of the hum and could actually hear my TT, i realized i have another noise buried under all that hum. it is rumble? doing a quick google search has lead me to find out that it is a common occurrence in TT's and usually comes from the bearings? to make sure this is really what i have, let me point out that i hear it most easily without a record playing. i don't really notice any rumble with an album on (but that may be because the music covers it up). i have read that there are 'rumble filters' that you can buy, anyone have any experience with these/suggestions?
In the old days, some preamps or receivers (having integrated phono stages) would have a "rumble filter". This is simply a high-pass filter which rolls off the low frequencies - like from 20hz downwards.
However, these filters do not act like a "brick wall" ... they start their roll-off much higher than 20hz. :o
Thus, using a rumble filter will mean you will start losing the bass from your music :( ... so can I suggest if you like music, a much better solution is to change the bearing on your TT or swap it for one that doesn't have any rumble.
And, no, I wouldn't say it's a "common" occurence. Certainly not something which is an intrinsic part of listening to vinyl. :D
Regards,
Andy
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low.pfile, the reason turntables are grounded is because the cartridge has such low voltage going into a phono preamp that has lots of gain, and the metal tonearm assembly can act like a gigantic antenna, picking up all kinds of noise, then amplifying it. Hense, the ground wire.
I suspect you are creating a ground loop as well. One thing to check if you have a volt/ohm meter is to set the meter on continuity check and see if the tonearm body is electrically connected to the RCA plugs shield of either the left or right channels. If so, the ground wire is a duplication of ground and has 2 different potentials of current passage. That will create a ground loop. If there is no continuity, and you have no hum with the ground wire off, then leave it off. Another thing to try is to not connect the ground wire to the phono preamp, but connect it to the preamp or receiver you are using.
Let us know the outcome.
Wayner :)
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thank you andy for that! i wasn't trying to imply that rumbling was intrinsic, i guess i shouldn't have used the word 'common'. i was more trying to say that it seems it is a known phenomena in the land of TT's. i am suprised that my brand new TT has it though, it is certainly not the 'top of the line' (project debut III) but comes from a pretty well respected company. maybe i just got a bad one? should i take it in for service (not much of a DIY'er) - i have also read online many people don't seem to have much luck with fixing the bearings?
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ratso,
If it is indeed 'rumble' you hear it can probably be tamed a bit with a $129 Pro-ject Speedbox.
If it's feedback, that is the (generally low frequency) sounds that are stores in your room and table support, a good thick granite or maple block under your table with your choice of feet will help greatly. The choice of granite or maple or the type of feet (brass, carbon fibre, wood, NAVCOM, sorbothane or other squishy type) is a point of subjectivity.
Does your table rest directly on a shelf or support now?
Choosing a good sub-table and feet may even affect rumble...allowing some of it to drain away from your table instead of towards your ultra-sensitive cartridge. 4 (very small) moca wood chocks (practically free) under a 3.5" maple butcher block ($about $100 with freight) and 4 brass feet ($25 at Parts Express) pointed down from the table into the maple block was my ticket to happiness. This has been a better upgrade than any cartridge swap-out for me :thumb:
As a primarily mechanical device, ridding your deck of extraneous noise is a methodical affair. Once you shuck off enough of it and let your cartridge/arm do its work - you'll revel in the beauty of vinyl :)
btw, don't discount a change in mats too to help remove 'noise'. The right one will isolate and or absorb stored energy in your platter/deck before it reaches your cartridge, too.
Hang in there - next stop, nirvana :wink:
John
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What is recommended for best isolation of suspended tables?
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Launche,
Your mailbox is full. I can't send you a p.m. until you ditch some messages. :?
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What is recommended for best isolation of suspended tables?
Well, in general, suspended tables are already substantially 'shielded' from feedback by use of a suspension. They also tend to be more prone to footfall skips because of it, too.
So, recommended is likely a hard foot...ie, wood, brass, carbon fibre, etc under them. Some squishy pud will make it unerringly bouncy and prone to slight movements in your room (I am near certain there are some suspended tables that may be the exempt from this, but in general, suspension is already bountifully bouncy :wink:)
The best, as in most things hi-end audio, is subjective. But, you're probably on a closer trail to happiness looking at hard footers rather than soft for suspended tables.
John
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many thanx chairguy, all good suggestions that i will try! i also read that TT can be sensitive to placement by your speakers, is this also because of feedback? (my martin logans fire backwards of course as well as forward, i.e. toward my turntable). however, i mention this just for others sake, i don't think it's contributing much to MY problem. when testing my system i literally pulled my TT about 10 feet out into the room to make sure the hum/rumble wasn't being caused by other equipment around it.
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Good support under your table, be it maple (my preferred) or granite (these are the two most discussed...save the audiophool solutions like Sounds of Silence, Townshend Isolation bases, Brightstar, DIY sandboxes, etc) often make an enormous difference.
Feedback is normally due to low frequency sympathetic sounds in your room during playback. The louder you turn it up, the worse the issue becomes typically.
My table was a top of a 3 shelf Target rack filled with sand and probably weighed 125 lbs with all the equipment on it. It had 4 spike feet at the bottom and the platform that held the shelf was on 4 spiked feet. Yet, despite this, the addition of a 3.5" maple platform on top of all that and under the table was HUGE.
Dawn's Depot on ebay I bought it from (no affiliation with her other than pleased customer 2x): http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHIGAN-MAPLE-BLOCK-CUTTING-BOARD-BUTCHER-BLOCK-A_W0QQitemZ110392268975QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b3e458af&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A30
John
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just to follow up mr. chairguy, it is indeed feedback. i (with the help of an extremely helpful local HT installer) managed to troubleshoot my system. after months on the phone/online with my preamp builder, local stereo repair shops, jensen transformers and others, we finally found the cause of my 'hum' in my turntable setup. i foolishly overlooked a $30 rca female to female connector i was using to extend a rca cable's length - it was of course, defective. oh an BTW who made this piece of shite connector? wait for it... yes you guessed it MONSTER CABLE. serves me right. thanx to them for costing me a $175 service call. but after the hum disappeared the remaining noise was definately feedback, being caused by too close of placement to my speakers. a simple change in placement, a couple of new rca/rca connectors and i am, how did you put it, in "nirvana". i could cry right now i'm so happy!
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Allright - a good ending. Or, is that a beginning? :scratch: :thumb:
You might be sobbing if you try the 3" maple block underneath aa
John
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Hi guys,
I'm one of those, have a couple boxes of albums in the basement, guys. Most were played once and recorded onto tape. In high school, the car was the only place to really listen to music. Jump to now, and I just bought a new receiver for my bedroom system. I plan on skipping the CD player, and getting a dedicated Ipod for a psuedo server. I also thought it would be fun to get a turntable. I'm not looking for better than CD sound, just something fun and easy. I might end up getting hooked on vinyl, then I'll get a nice setup for my main system. I might end up pulling out an LP every other week and being happy with the bedroom system. From some thread here I bookmarked this http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPL120HIFI&Category_Code=TURN
From the same place I saw this
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=DENDP0300F&Category_Code=DENONTTB
Close to the same price, both have a built in pre, the denon is belt and auto. The price is right, is it worth doing?
Thanks, Ryan
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Hi Guys,
I'm hoping that you can help me out regarding a turntable. I have a very unreliable turntable that I will be selling as soon as I fix it. It has cost me so much in time and money over the past 7 years that I'm fed up with it.
I can get an audionote tt1 for $1500AU shipped here to perth.
Does anyone have any experience with this turntable? Does it sound good? Is it reliable?
Regards
Rod
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Ryno,
I've heard that the AT had some hum issues. I have heard nothing (good or bad) on the Denon. At $329 for the Denon, could you spring a little more and get a Technics SL-1200mkII? That is a very well made table, direct drive. Good bang for the buck table, and if sometime you don't like it, it will be easy to sell.
Wayner
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Thanks for the response Wayner,
I did look at the technics, that plus having to get a pre is more money and fuss than I want for a bedroom system. If I spend that much, I might as well up it a little more and get a table for the main system. I'm not sure I want to go that far without trying a budget setup first.
Ryan
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ryno,
The Audio Technica was reported by TONE Audio to sound good...better than the Technics SL-1200 in stock form. But, I have heard there are QA issues.
If LPGear actually checks how it's working for you for the $299.00 it's probably worthwhile to try. However, be forewarned, the built in preamp is probably horrendous and that in itself may leave you short of loving vinyl in totality.
Better that you buy an old receiver with built-in phono to use for your little system in the bedroom I think...along with the AT or Technics deck.
John
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Most of the AT is built from Technics parts. Unless Technics QC is worse than AT, I don't know how the AT table could sound better. If anything, they would sound the same.
Wayner
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Most of the AT is built from Technics parts. Unless Technics QC is worse than AT, I don't know how the AT table could sound better. If anything, they would sound the same.
Wayner
Cheaper parts reproduced in China, not Japan, likely and some deficit in line manufacturing QA could account for sonic differences and defect rates.
Two parts I understand is plastic on the AT is rubber on the Technics. The top-plate and bottom base in the tri-ply affair of these models is different. My strong suspicion of the Technics sonic failings center on those rubber pieces ('dark', 'overdamped' have been descriptions that I and others apply to the Technics).
So, substituting plastic for rubber here may make the AT sonically sound better (tho less feedback resistant)
There is a family relationship between Audio-Technica and Matsushita (same family, Matsushita, started both companies but they are independent entities today), but I don't know of a reciprocal arrangement between the two companies.
Most likely, the AT-PL120 is a (mostly well done) Chinese knock-off of the venerable Technics SL-1200....and not a collaboration between the two companies.
That's my take on it, at least :)
ryno: 229 reviews on the AT-PL120 on Amazon for you to read up on. It'll give you a good overview of it's foibles, failures and strengths from a good cross section of owners/users: http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-PL120-Professional-Direct-Drive-Turntable/product-reviews/B00012EYNG/ref=cm_cr_pr_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
John
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In the face of good advice from Waner and company, I went ahead and made a huge mistake anyway. I was picking up my new tube integrated ( Rogue Cronus ),and "accidentally" bought a Music Hall 2.1 for a good price fropm my dealer who is a very nice guy and good salesman.
Just shoot me, make it a head shot, no pain.
After a couple months of screwing around with this and that cart, building my own wall mount, trying every conceivable vibration isolation scheme you can think of, what I ended up with is a season ticket in the middle of Mediochre, Pa.
After listining to a few LP's, I got sucked back into the magic and thought how much better it would sound if I had just saved my shackles and moved up to a nice deck.
Moral: If you want a vinyl playback system that sounds better than CD's, digs deeply into the music and has standout fspatial presentation, save your money and jump right into the mid level tables. If you are going cheap, consider a Technics and a good cart. Futzing around in the nether world of economy equipment will just ............lead to agnst.
Humble Pie "Rockin the Filmore" good God, what a record.
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I'm sorry to hear this, weirdo :(
Put a thick maple block under that table and it might improve a bit. It's an item you can continue to use with good results if you choose (as we hope you do not abandon vinyl) a new, upgraded TT in the future.
The maple block won't fix ills of shabby mdf platter, poor quality bearings, inexpensive/low torque motor and all else that may be the root cause of bad sound from your MMF-2.1, but it'll reduce feedback from your supports from entering into your sonic chain.
I bought mine on ebay from a Dawns Depot and it's under $100 with shipping from her.
Sorry my man... :cry:...but, don't give up the good fight.
John
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Thanks brother, No way will I give up the fight. I might however, consider the cheap gear a mistake, put on the gloves and get back in the ring.
I see a higher level set-up in my future.
I'm one of those guys that does no like to overspend. This is a good trait, but in stereo gear, when you go cheap instead of quality budget, you can get into trouble. Life is for living and learning I guess.
I'm having way too much fun listening to my friends LP's to give up on vinyl. He feeds me about 50 lp's every couple of months from his old collection. Some survived well, others are warped and scratched, all traceable to specific dorm parties and celebrations involving the green leaf. I clean them up and play them . I was never into rock in a big way, being a student of jazz and classical, but I'm enjoying a bunch of stuff now. ELO, Doobies,etc. My home made wall stand will not support a good maple block so in one last attempt at sonic refinement and for the continuing amusement of my wife, I will take it offl the wall and set it upon the butcher block. thanks dk
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Hey, I didn't realize (or, remember) that you had it on a wall shelf already. If so, than a maple block underneath may not be of benefit to you.
I just wanted to intercept before you plunged in and spent another $100 on a lost TT cause :(
Nothing wrong with being mindful of your finite funds...sometimes it works out the way you need it to and other times not :|
John
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Here are a few of my recommended LP's to show off a TT:
Freidmann - Indian Summer
Supertramp - Brother, where you bound?
Pink Floyd - The Division Bell
Andreas Vollenweider - White Winds, or Dancing with the Lion.
Wayner
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Might be worth a 'read' for anyone interested............
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/426-a-secrets-technical-article.html
yes, just another Lp vs. Digital article but........there is some good info there.
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OK, so who ever said I rushed into things....the advantages of retirement.
I have had my MMF 7.1 / 2400 Goldring cart and Jolida 9A with Tungsol tubes running along for just over 5 months. Wow. I can't believe that I waited soooo long to get back to spinning vinyl. This is fed into a Cary SLI-80 and out to a pair of Paradigm Studio 20's v.3. Stunning. All the air and claity I could ask for and with a dual 10 inch powered sub for the heavy lifting, the whole range is good. Could it be better...sure, but it would cost more than I can invest for that extra 5-7%.
With a good stock of NOS vinyl that received TLC back in the day, music is heavenly.
Walt
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This is the no-dumb-questions section right? :oops:
Lately I've been picking up a lot of new and NOS LPs encased in shrink wrap... I've seen some sellers make a deal about how it's still in the shrink, presumably as an indication of cover quality. But are there any risks to consider in retaining the wrap? Could it damage the cover, etc.?
BTW I am religiously employing poly sleeves for protection.
Thx
Paul
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Paul/miney,
I'd like to think (and duly hope!) that this is an all questions are fair game circle...not just topic 8)
Sooooooo....
After a time the outer shrink wrap will warp the album covers as, over the years, paper/cardboard will naturally pick up moisture from the air. The shrinkwrap won't allow for proper expansion.
So, if anything....a NOS LP with folly sealed, original shrink wrap on an album cover may be worse (or at least as bad as in a different way) than slit shrink wrap (which at leaves some wiggle room for the album cover to expand) or none at all.
That said, I'm not that picky about my albums - have bought NOS/original shrink wrapped albums - and they look fine.
But, you are a bit :wink: more detailed than I am (or most :icon_lol:) and may see the difference.
John
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I'm a newbie exploring several avenues which I can hopefully delve into.
I've been thinking seriously about vinyl recently since I heard a couple of recordings. Now, i'm fairly young so you'll excuse me if my earliest exposure to audio dates only as far back as the Philips Compact Cassette.
So then it would be no surprise that I was blown away by the sound of vinyl. Nothing like CD - what have I been doing all these years? :duh:
Anyway, the few recordings that I did hear were on YouTube. Now, I don't know if this is true but the output is so distinct, so warm and vibrant and which can ALL be heard through a high quality YouTube video, for example: http://www.youtube.com/user/mingrey1975#p/u/30/_XYHukKv7zY (http://www.youtube.com/user/mingrey1975#p/u/30/_XYHukKv7zY)
My question is how come CDs don't sound like this? If I can hear these details through a digital (and somewhat poor medium like YouTube), why aren't CDs made to sound like this?
Thanks so much guys, I'm so perplexed and quite ready to jump on the vinyl bandwagon aa.
-A
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The CDs sound can be directly related to the quality of the transport mechanism and to a much greater extent, the digital to analog converter and filtering systems employed by the CD player manufacturer. That is why many audiophiles go the separates route, using a dedicated D/A converter fueled by the CD players digital outputs.
LPs can suffer from the same outcome if the turntable platter itself is exposed to noises, vibrations and magnetic fields. If the arm and cartridge are a poor choice or mal-aligned, the results can be worse then a less then spine tingling CD player.
Wayner aa
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and ....to further what Wayner has just said.............'mastering...mastering and mastering' , when it's done right CD's can 'magical' as well.
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Well Folks, I'm getting married in July and my future Wife would like to know what I want as a wedding present. Our new house allows me to mount the TV on the wall so now the top shelf of my custom component stand can now support a turntable rather than a big flat panel. I've decided after doing much research here that I want to start with a KAB SL1210 M5GSE. My question is two parts...
1. What modifications do you guys feel are worth the money? For example, I'm 99% sure I will be going with the fluid damper but the other options really throw me for a loop.
2. What would you recommend for an entry level phono preamp that I can use with the rest of my system in the ~500 price range?
Thanks you and regards,
Pete
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I can't comment on the table but I have heard that the Jolida phono pre is quite good! And not very expensive. :thumb:
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I can vouch for the Jolida phono preamp, but you MUST replace the stock tubes. They're horrible.
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laserboi,
What cartridge would you or do you use with your Technics? If you are using a moving coil, they generally don't need fluid damping. If you use a Grado or many moving magnet brands, they tend to respond to fluid damping better.
Note the italics, as nothing is set in stone, unfortunately :|
You may be better of spending on the outboard motor upgrade from KABUSA or maybe a new upgraded bearing available from a few folks today....for your finite resources.
As for outboard phono pre....vinyl is generally best enjoyed with as short a transmission line possible I've found. So my first recommendation is ALWAYS a full functioned preamp with phono rather than an outboard pre that adds another couple RCA jacks and loads of additional lengths of transmission for feeble cartridge signals to try to plow thru.
Of course, dependent on setup and budge, it isn't always possible to incorporate a full functioned pre into the system.
Simple really is best with vinyl...and helpful for digital (tho not nearly as helpful as the signal is a rather robust 2 volts from source) usually, too.
John
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Thanks for the help/suggestions.
Chairguy, I plan on using one of the Grado cartridges with the longhorn mod from Wayner. I must admit, albeit it probably is obvious but this is my first venture into vinyl. I understand what you are saying about the pre but my Candela lacks that feature unfortunately. So am I correct in understanding that the Grado Long Horn would benefit from the fluid damper? I am also confused on the outboard motor that you mention. I was unable to find this option on the Kab website and was wondering if you meant "PS-1200 Outboard Power Supply( Includes Socket Above and SX1200 ) $250.00 [more info]?"
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I can vouch for the Jolida phono preamp, but you MUST replace the stock tubes. They're horrible.
Ditto and ditto here.
I was unable to find this option on the Kab website and was wondering if you meant "PS-1200 Outboard Power Supply( Includes Socket Above and SX1200 ) $250.00 [more info]?"
Here's a link to the power supply. Been considering myself...
http://kabusa.com/ps1200.htm (http://kabusa.com/ps1200.htm)
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Thanks for the help/suggestions.
Chairguy, I plan on using one of the Grado cartridges with the longhorn mod from Wayner. I must admit, albeit it probably is obvious but this is my first venture into vinyl. I understand what you are saying about the pre but my Candela lacks that feature unfortunately. So am I correct in understanding that the Grado Long Horn would benefit from the fluid damper? I am also confused on the outboard motor that you mention. I was unable to find this option on the Kab website and was wondering if you meant "PS-1200 Outboard Power Supply( Includes Socket Above and SX1200 ) $250.00 [more info]?"
laserboi,
Oh yes, a Grado (even with the Longhorn mods) will and does tend to benefit mightily from fluid damped arms. Grado's run underdamped or perhaps undamped internally....and the arm damping helps :)
You should hear tighter/ tauter bass among other things with your Grado on a damped tonearm.
Using a Grado cartridge on a Technics SL-1200, that would be my first upgrade to get (a fluid damper). It's among the least pricey, too, and you can install yourself.
As time and budget permits, you can then look at the outboard motor supply (and strobe disabler) as miney points to and even upgraded bearings that purportedly improve things further. About 3/4 of the way down the following page you can see all the upgrades available from another source of Technics upgrades in the UK. The main bearing upgrade is something you can perform yourself - even if you are not particularly DIY-inclined:
http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm
Don't hesitate to ask questions here or in another post at Vinyl Circle. Vinyl is not plug in and play and you have dozens or perhaps hundreds of folks here that have many years of experience that can help you along in the learning process.
John
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Thank you again to all who have responded to my questions. I will keep reading and learning from all of the experts here. I will definitely take a look at the Jolida phono pre.
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As the last newbie question on this sticky was February 2010...please ask away.
There is NO question too dumb to ask here about vinyl. None, zero, zip, zilch, nada, nothing :)
Fire away newbies - it is with you that the future of vinyl rests :notworthy:
John
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A member who is following my return to vinyl sent me a PM asking a great question which is "would you do it again?"
I thought long and hard about this and sent him a really long reply.
I'll try to distill it down a bit.
In MY case, I would have been better off spending the amount I have put into vinyl (deck, cart, cleaners, iso, etc) into upgrading my speakers.
I firmly believe that speakers matter the most. Everything else is just icing on the cake. I have Merlin TSM-MMe's which are a very nice small 2 way monitor, along w/ a pair of GR Research OB subs (Hframe) and a Mirage sub. Yes, it's a nice full range system. But the subs can't fix the lack of dynamics in the midrange area, that many reasonably priced speakers exhibit.
I probably should have sold the Merlins, and combined with the money I spent on vinyl and acquired a much better speaker.
However. I love the sound I'm getting from my little Rega deck. It far surpasses my expectations. With a good record it is pure magic. And I have a better than average digital source. But I don't even have it hooked up at the moment.
So....would I do it again? Hell yes. But I should have waited until I fixed what I want from a speaker.
If you like/love your current setup, but find something lacking, then vinyl may be your answer. But it will not magically turn your run of the mill rig into something great.
Modern analogue rigs and cleaning methods make surface noise far less of an issue than I remember from 30 years ago. But it will always exist to some extent. You must accept that.
BTW: I like the whole process involved w/ vinyl. It makes playing music seem like an event. But that's just a quirk of mine. Most people would probably prefer to just push a button and get what they want on demand.
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BTW: I like the whole process involved w/ vinyl. It makes playing music seem like an event. But that's just a quirk of mine. Most people would probably prefer to just push a button and get what they want on demand.
Oh no, quite the contrary, many of us feel exactly as you do, the process is a big part of the experience. Something left so cold when just plucking in a CeeDee or whirring up a server. When I play records for my GF I'm so disappointed when screwing down the clamp and brushing off the lp she says, "Oh, I'll be right back when you're finished, let me know when the music starts." I want her to see the whole ritual prep that makes it so special, she of course could care less.
As far as speakers go I disagree with you, in a fashion. Yes of course speakers make the biggest sonic impression and difference, right behind the room. But you'll never achieve synergism in your system without a proper front end, you must start with the source and work down. Like you, I didn't used to believe this, but as you move up the chain in quality components, this becomes more self evident. It's almost as if you can't be taught this, you have to learn it from experience, which is of course too late for you on that system, but the information can be used on the next. Thus we all have closets full of unused audio gear, mostly turntables and other front ends.
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I am also a believer in a good front end. It's been my experience that great speakers cannot make bad source components sound better. On the contrary, it seems that a good front end can make even modest speakers operate at their best... getting the most possible from them. Of course, really good front end equipment will eventually have one evaluate everything downstream.
My other experience confirms what many have said regarding system synergy. It takes a lot of listening, experimentation, listening, patience, walking away, coming back, listening and listening. I've often been pleasantly surprised to hear how something unexpectantly wonderful happens when the right equipment comes together in a listening space. Much of the time this phenomenon has little to do with spending mega bucks.
The other point, that has been pointed out many times, is the music. Sometimes the memory of my "record player," from 4 decades ago, exceeds the enjoyment of my current "audiophile system" if I am obsessing and constantly listening for defects in my current equipment. It's quirky when trying to bridge the gap between improving the performance of a hifi system and loving the music.
Maybe it would be interesting to pose the question: What do you really listen to more... music or the components? :roll:
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While I do believe in the 'garbage in/garbage out' philosophy, I'll stick to my guns that a truly great system starts with speakers. This is a fairly recent observation BTW.
And yes, the room is part of the system, and the speakers must match. You can't shove a line array into a tiny space and expect it to work. But I think what makes a speaker universally good, is that it minimizes the room interactions.
But that's a whole 'nuther subject, not related to TT's and vinyl.
But w/ regards to vinyl. I'm enjoying music now more than I have in years. And the hunt for good records just adds to the fun. I'm thrilled w/ the discovery of my new indie dealer here in town. 3 of the 4 I got (for a mere $5/ea) sound spectacular.
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Hi,
I wanted some advice as I am new to the vinyl world. I have a technics 1205 (standard arm) with bearing mod and kab fluid, at 440mla and black cube se phono. I like what I am hearing but have not really been wowed over my digital set up (audial nos dac). I have not been able to do a proper dbx test and have thought of buying a tvc with dual volume but don't know if I want to go that far. I prefer listening over a longer period of time to get a better feeling for each medium. I wish I could say what I wanted out of vinyl but my concern is throwing in more cash for more reward. My ideas for upgrades would either go the technics sp route or lenco route with something like a trans fi arm. Like to spend less than more. Also open to changing cartridges instead of going whole hog. A lot of coffee has gone into this post so if any clarification is needed just ask and any help just ask and any help is greatly appreciated. I am happy with the rest of my system (2 gedlee speakers one danley sh 95 trinaural processor and pioneer amp, thanks James Romeyn your posts led me to some real audio enjoyment). Sorry my table is a 1210m5g.
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Joschmo,
The first thing you could do is align your cartridge differently. The SL1210 spindle to pivot distance is 215mm. Technics supplies an alignment tool that puts the stylus at 15mm overhang. This puts the first null point into the label area. It also has a rather large harmonic distortion curve at the beginning of the record, because of this alignment.
To achieve a Lofgren B curve, I suggest you change the overhange to 18.282mm and align the cartridge at 70.285 and 116.604mm. This may liberate the sound somewhat. I also recommend tracking the AT440MLa at 1.5-1.6 grams, not the 1.4 recommended. SRA adjustment may be another consideration. I have my SL1200 VTA set at the number 4 position. This translates to a 92 degree SRA (Stylus Rake Angle), which is the optimum position for this cartridge.
Wayner
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BTW, I measured the arm weight for my SL1200 the other day (you do this by removing the counter weight and measuring the weight of the arm at the headshell (minus the cartridge) and it was 15.7 grams. With the weight of the AT440MLa at 6.5 grams, that puts the total arm weight at 22.2 grams. With the AT having a compliance rating of 10, the resonance frequency of the arm is at about 11 hz. That is what makes the AT a nice fit for the Technics.
Wayner
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The trinaural processor may be the problem I remember reading some where on the net that spoke to the tuning problem with vinyl play back. I couldn't find it but with a little vigilance you should be able to.
good luck
Ric
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Thank you both, Wayner you have a pm. I do remember reading that review Ric but I still have hope and the proof of others enjoyments.
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Thank you both, Wayner you have a pm. I do remember reading that review Ric but I still have hope and the proof of others enjoyments.
I hope you get it all worked out. I have been very curious about the Triaural processor. Keep us posted.
Ric
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To get a new thought going. Does a TT weight make a difference? Meaning what benefits can I expect if I were to spend $30 to put .76 lbs right in the center of my spinning record.
Also, my current vinyl setup is about 3 times more expensive than my cd and they sound similarly good. All in all I think I have a good balance going.
I have a rega p2 with grado gold - purchased new this year.
Thanks,
Sam
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To get a new thought going. Does a TT weight make a difference? Meaning what benefits can I expect if I were to spend $30 to put .76 lbs right in the center of my spinning record.
Also, my current vinyl setup is about 3 times more expensive than my cd and they sound similarly good. All in all I think I have a good balance going.
I have a rega p2 with grado gold - purchased new this year.
Thanks,
Sam
Hmmm, I see no one answered Sam's question here, including myself, terribly sorry about that - generally we have scores of seasoned vinyl enthusiasts chiming in on a question.
I, personally, have found very modest benefits from a center weight. It serves to press the record itself a little flatter against the platter and would damp the record to a slightly lower frequency (which is generally desirable). But, all in all the effects are worth no more than $30 you mentioned.
However, an outer record clamp is and can sometimes be remarkable effective. It takes the benefit of an inner clamp, pressing record flatter and record damping and MULTIPLIES it with increasing the inertia of the spinning platter with weight held at it's edge. Outer rings can improve tracking often dramatically thru it's combination of virtues including significant warp reduction of your vinyl (plastic) record.
The combination of an inner and outer record weight will most often prove best of all. But, for you with a modest set-up and budget, you may find the financial outlay more than the benefits from it.
For those of us with invested sums in advance of your front end, or hungering for better sound even at any sane cost, the $350+ it may cost to get a fine inner and outer clamp is worthwhile.
Here's a great source for outer rings (I have one myself and am very pleased): http://www.ttweights.com/480_gram_alloy_outer_ring.html
John
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Dear Vinyl Newbies
We, the long-in-the-tooth vinyl fans understand and empathize with your frustration at dialing in your rig totally :(
We lose ourselves in our preferred medium and sometimes forget the beginnings of our (often) long journey into vinyl. It takes some level of knowledge to get the best from your rig...much more so than line sources.
I/we want to invite you to enjoy your vinyl thoroughly, and invite you to pose any question in this topic that has been vexing you and that has not be answered adequately as yet (here or in any other forum).
There is no question 'too stupid' to ask here, no ridicule will be pointed and no hazing ritual allowed :wink: If you don't have a question, just pop in and say 'hi'.
If you don't have a turntable, but are thinking about it...feel free to flesh out your many ideas here if they have not been fully flexed otherwise
Ask away here in this topic if you have not the inclination to make a topic of your own here...and you will get many helping hands here to guide you at the Vinyl Circle.
Thank you,
John / TheChairGuy
Facilitator / The Vinyl Circle @ AudioCircle
(btw, anybody can post here in response to newbies...it's just mostly for newbies to chime in and post)
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Hi
I have put a heavier headshell/cart on my TT. Although each gets balanced in the setup it occurs to me that the heavier one having more mass will have more inertia.
In easy to understand words, what would this do to the sound ?
I have seen some threads that seem to be about this but they get much too complex for me.
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e.man, great question. I'm interested in hearing folks' response. out of curiosity what cart and arm are you using? cheers, Jim
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e.man, great question. I'm interested in hearing folks' response. out of curiosity what cart and arm are you using? cheers, Jim
I was looking for somewhere in 'Profile' or signature to note hardware.
This is on a JVC QL-Y5F TT with curved factory arm. Am mounting Stanton headshell with Stanton 680 cart.
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I was looking for somewhere in 'Profile' or signature to note hardware.
Add it here and it will show up in the left section next to your posts:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems
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Hi
I have put a heavier headshell/cart on my TT. Although each gets balanced in the setup it occurs to me that the heavier one having more mass will have more inertia.
In easy to understand words, what would this do to the sound ?
I have seen some threads that seem to be about this but they get much too complex for me.
I see no one answered you, e.man, sorry about that. I saw your post the other day, was busy and figured the other loudmouth vinylphools here would help you out.
Vinyl is a lot about trial and error. Aside from fumbly fingers shearing off a delicate needle or cantilver - I encourage you to tinker to your hearts delight.
Adding a heavier headshell adds mass to an arm. A low compliance cartridge (some with a cu of perhaps less than 15) would most often benefit from it. Compliance, or cu, is mostly a function of the cartridge suspension system.
A lowish compliance cartridge doesn't want a light arm as the arm will 'move' more in sympathy with the cartridge as it tracks a record. A low compliance cartridge has less jounce (springiness) to handle a lot of arm movements. A low compliance cartridge generally wants a heavier arm that moves less and would allow it to more capably track the grooves.
I'd simplifying matters a lot here (there are certain frequencies many vinylphools swear you have to tune your cartridge & arm to for the best sound, etc). For the most part - try and hear the effect of a heavier headshell yourself. Your original headshell may well have been terrible - so no matter the disadvantage of adding a heavier headshell if you have high or medium compliance cartridge...it might STILL sound better overall :thumb:
Give it a try and enjoy the music :guitar:
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So this 'compliance' is more about tracking than sound ? ( not getting too involved with tonearm/cart frequencies issues)
We are talking about "Cartridge compliance' here. Should we really be saying 'Stylus' ? I see on the Vinylengine database that the Stanton 680 and Ortofon carts have different compliance depending which stylus they have.
I have gone from Ortofon which is lighter with a higher compliance (cu) to heavier, lower cu Stanton. I had an Ortofon OM running recommended VTF on my other TT and it did not track well. This heavy Stanton setup has already tracked like a monster.
I have made a small screwdriver to get to the Azimuth screws under the tonearm so i can give it a proper run now.
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To a great extent - tracking IS sound.
Your talking about a diamond needle buried in a mound of plastic scraping the minuscule side walls for retrieval of information...merely microns deep.
It's so archaic that it's a wonder we can get any sound, let alone decent sound, alone from it. Yet, somehow we not only get good sound, but we often get superlative sound out of it - STILL the highest resolution source extent today.
So, when you make a cartridge/arm a better tracking one...you have better performance overall.
Your Stanton is lower compliance and by adding the heavier headshell you gave it what it likely needed to excel at tracking - more mass (at least more mass than the Ortofon requires)
I'm no cartridge builder, but yes, compliance (or cu) is mostly, if not all, determined by the stylus assembly. Both the construction of the cantilever and the rubber or synthetic rubber suspension bits influence the cu.
Improving tracking is important to getting the best sound from your deck. But, there are a host of other considerations as well.
Keep in mind all the measurements out there won't tell you if YOU like what you're hearing. Trust your hearing. If you like what you hear than it is indeed good :thumb:
Dem's da' rules :wink: :rules:
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Sort of a vinyl newbee here. A couple years ago my wife gave me a Ion Audio record player for Christmas so I could digitize my LPs. I started digitizing the LPs without paying too much attention to the music. I recently just stopped because I actually sat down and listened to the record player. It sounds bad. I would like something better, which shouldn't be too hard to find. :)
So I am trying to learn about turntables (not record players). To me it is hard to determine what the difference is between turntables of varying prices. From what I read there are a few important things: the table, the arm, and the cartridge. How important are each of of those things? I was currently looking at the Pro-ject Debut III as an entry level table that would sound much better than the Ion audio.
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Bumping this topic forward so wannabee' vinyl enthusiasts-in-the-making can have a topic to post ALL their questions in.
Post here or make your own dedicated post on a subject you care about :thumb:
John / Facilitator
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I'm still a newbie at heart. Will be setting up a 10.5i VPI tonearm soon and am wondering about everyone's favorite azimuth adjustment methods. Right now I'm leaning towards the Fozgometer.
Paul
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I'm still a newbie at heart.
Count me in on that one too Paul - Still learning and enjoying :thumb:
Will be setting up a 10.5i VPI tonearm soon and am wondering about everyone's favorite azimuth adjustment methods. Right now I'm leaning towards the Fozgometer.
Paul
To save on the squinting on first set up I tend to take a little digi pic just to help verify.
Pop the camera on a stand/tri-pod and take a head on snap (max resolution on macro).
I typically just delete them once set up, here's one I kept though of a Stanton 881S.
Probably not the best pic I've taken (normally get in a little closer), but you should get the gist.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=53086)
The hardest part is getting the camera to focus on the diamond - this takes a little patience.
I use one of those little 30x mini telescopes (inverted) to check by eye while setting up.
The Digi pic is a little over check.
Good luck and look forward to hearing your thoughts once up and running.
Cheers
Dave
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Davey, you do it by eye?!
Paul
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Hi Paul - Yes generally - Don't flame me :)
I initially check using the mini scope.
(http://www.makito.es/imagenes/8000/800/imgp/8873p.jpg)
Sometimes I use the end of metal 6" ruler as a bit of an extension off the platter to get a good close look.
Even then there's a fair bit of squinting so I use the Digi pic as an over check.
I have used the Hi-Fi sound test record tracks 1 and 2 (L/R channel) to verify but to be honest I'm pretty happy that if it's visually vertical on the close up digi pic then all is OK.
I know many go to much greater length's, but I'm happy with this approach especially as I'm a bit of an habitual cartridge swapper.
Cheers
Dave
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No flaming. In my job as a bone doc, I rely on instruments to help me align things, but I will admit that a lot of it is not super critical. Instruments help me get well into the ball park for a great result. I just can't imagine not using some type of measurement system to tell me that my eyes were seeing what my ears should be hearing (or something like that).
Someone said Weisfeld uses a mono spoken track and tries to equalize things that way. The Fozgometer looks like it would have a better way to measure things. I am waiting (maybe) for the Sound-Smith Cartright but they can be slow in releasing when they say they are going to...
Right now I've got a few other little projects going on. More later...
Paul
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My wife got me (let me get) a new turntable for Christmas and although it has been in my posession for months, I just spun my first record last night and may I just say WOW. The good WOW. This is the first album I have spun since my little fischer price player when I was 9 but I have been an avid listener of everything from CD, SACD, and HI-Rez digital for a long time and there are some things that just can't compare with vinyl. There are also some things that I am concerned with but I am under the impression it is user error.
PROs -
Soundstage is taken to another level compared with even the best digital recordings.
Bass has a different level of detail than any other recordings I have heard.
Procedure and ritual is a lot more fun than throwing in a shiny disc, or hitting play on a media player.
Availability of music...So many unique live albums and obscure music albums are available and dirt cheap and record stores.
Record stores are awesome...it is like a more socially acceptable comic book shop.
CONs
I got zapped with static from the edge of my first album after listening too it.
There is a slight low volume pop (I believe it is from static) even on new albums.
I can already here where I will improve my gear.
So many tweakables my mind hurts.
The different cleaning rituals will become a third job for me...but I will probably like it.
Just because I know the questions will arise, my Turntable is a project debut III with stock everything. I set the stylus pressure and tracking and although I can't change the speed, with a strobe disc, it appears to be accurate. I currently do not own any anti-static products but would be interested in any DIY methods. I am considering upgrading to a cork matt instead of the stock felt one.
Look forward to joining and thriving in the Vinyl community!
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sharpsuxx,
Welcome, :) yes it can become a way of life :wink: knowing how music can sound, its like knowledge, once you know it is hard to turn your back on it . . .
enjoy your trek and share what you are spinning if you like!
cheers,
Jim
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So far...a 1973 pink floyd DSOTM I got for 5 bucks. I am perfecting my cleaning technique on her. 33RPM RADIOHEAD in rainbows, transatlanticism-Death cap for cutie. the mars volta live album. So much goodness!!!
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My wife got me (let me get) a new turntable for Christmas and although it has been in my posession for months, I just spun my first record last night and may I just say WOW. The good WOW. This is the first album I have spun since my little fischer price player when I was 9 but I have been an avid listener of everything from CD, SACD, and HI-Rez digital for a long time and there are some things that just can't compare with vinyl. There are also some things that I am concerned with but I am under the impression it is user error.
PROs -
Soundstage is taken to another level compared with even the best digital recordings.
Bass has a different level of detail than any other recordings I have heard.
Procedure and ritual is a lot more fun than throwing in a shiny disc, or hitting play on a media player.
Availability of music...So many unique live albums and obscure music albums are available and dirt cheap and record stores.
Record stores are awesome...it is like a more socially acceptable comic book shop.
CONs
I got zapped with static from the edge of my first album after listening too it.
There is a slight low volume pop (I believe it is from static) even on new albums.
I can already here where I will improve my gear.
So many tweakables my mind hurts.
The different cleaning rituals will become a third job for me...but I will probably like it.
Just because I know the questions will arise, my Turntable is a project debut III with stock everything. I set the stylus pressure and tracking and although I can't change the speed, with a strobe disc, it appears to be accurate. I currently do not own any anti-static products but would be interested in any DIY methods. I am considering upgrading to a cork matt instead of the stock felt one.
Look forward to joining and thriving in the Vinyl community!
I solved my Debut 3 static issue by buying the Acrylit platter. Also improves sound and looks way cool.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=44337)
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Yo putz! That deck is dressed to kill!!!
Paul
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Yo putz! That deck is dressed to kill!!!
Paul
It was until I got the VPI bug and sold it. HW19 Jr and now an Aries 1. Now its sound to kill!!!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55623)
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Acrylit looks good and then I don't need a mat right? One other thing, now every so often I am getting a whining from the belt motor on the project, does that mean it just needs oiling? Where would one get the Acrylit for the debut III? Are there any popular tweaks for the debut III to look into?
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Acrylit looks good and then I don't need a mat right? One other thing, now every so often I am getting a whining from the belt motor on the project, does that mean it just needs oiling? Where would one get the Acrylit for the debut III? Are there any popular tweaks for the debut III to look into?
Do a search and multiple dealers will come up who sell the Acrylit. Speed Box another good tweak. As is a better stylus for the OM cartridge like the om20 and a clamp for the platter. You could also look for these items used on ebay and Audiogon.
Or, if you think you're serious about vinyl, sell the Debut and get a better table with the Debut proceeds and the money you're not spending on the above tweaks. That's what I ended up doing after I bought the tweaks and I'm happy. The tweaks will definitely improve the Debut but it's still entry level after all is said and done. Food for thought.
Read the manual or ask a dealer about how to properly lube the motor. I didn't own my Debut long enough to encounter that. Since you just got the table it should not whine but stuff happens.
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So far...a 1973 pink floyd DSOTM I got for 5 bucks. I am perfecting my cleaning technique on her. 33RPM RADIOHEAD in rainbows, transatlanticism-Death cap for cutie. the mars volta live album. So much goodness!!!
some great lps :green: on the mars volta live!
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i guess this would be a noob question, just something i've been kicking around in my head. if i was to decide to run a TT through a DAC is there a simple way to do it? assuming of course a regular (non-usb) TT and a regular (non analog input) DAC. as a noob, i would be looking for a simple, relatively inexpensive way to do it. can this be done? (before anyone asks, i am looking at possible using a DAC as a preamp. i know several DAC/preamp combo's but am having a hard time locating one that is relatively inexpensive, does 192/24 usb 2.0 and has a reasonable number of analog and digital inputs). something like a W4S dac2 would do if i could figure out how to run analog through it...
**edit** yes the W4S has an analog input, the HT bypass. i would be using that as a HT bypass though.
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i guess this would be a noob question, just something i've been kicking around in my head. if i was to decide to run a TT through a DAC is there a simple way to do it? assuming of course a regular (non-usb) TT and a regular (non analog input) DAC. as a noob, i would be looking for a simple, relatively inexpensive way to do it. can this be done? (before anyone asks, i am looking at possible using a DAC as a preamp. i know several DAC/preamp combo's but am having a hard time locating one that is relatively inexpensive, does 192/24 usb 2.0 and has a reasonable number of analog and digital inputs). something like a W4S dac2 would do if i could figure out how to run analog through it...
**edit** yes the W4S has an analog input, the HT bypass. i would be using that as a HT bypass though.
You would need an external phono stage... lots of options out there.
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I solved my Debut 3 static issue by buying the Acrylit platter. Also improves sound and looks way cool.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=44337)
How do you like that KAB clamp?
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yes, you are indeed correct delta, and thanx! however, i would need a usb out phono amp which raises it's own set of problems, as most usb dac's have only ONE usb input and i need that for my mac mini. (btw, i realize this probably needs it's own thread - i wanted to put it here to perhaps be of use to anyone else).
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yes, you are indeed correct delta, and thanx! however, i would need a usb out phono amp which raises it's own set of problems, as most usb dac's have only ONE usb input and i need that for my mac mini. (btw, i realize this probably needs it's own thread - i wanted to put it here to perhaps be of use to anyone else).
Why would you need a USB out if you have a DAC w/ analog inputs?
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How do you like that KAB clamp?
It was ok for the price and the quality of the table.
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It was ok for the price and the quality of the table.
I had the old one, while it did it's job just fine it was annoying to use.
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Success!!! And next steps...
Thanks to the posters here i developed enough confidence to buy a used Rega P3/24 with Dynavector 10x5 cartridge & external power supply.
Great to listen to all that vinyl that had been in storage for 30+ years. Amazing to experience the soundstage, emotional involvement and engagement / realism I had forgotten about...
I have the Rega connected to a 36 year old Harmon Kardon 665 Integrated Amp (100W into 8 ohms) and thru Salk HT-2TLs. WAF is over the top - especially after getting turntable set up...in her words "it's truly like listening to live music in our family room"
Here's my question:
I notice that when listening to CD (Cambridge Audio 840c) at normal listening levels (8-9 o'clock) I defeat the tone controls and get pretty good sound. With the Rega, for the same volume I have to move the dial to between 1:00-4:00 and find myself wanting to add bass via the tone controls or by using the "loudness" function...
I wouldnt be surprised if the next thing to upgrade is my HK 665 integrated - but wondered if moving to an external phono pre-amp would give me back the low end I am missing, or if the issue has more to do with my choice of cartridge. Any thoughts here would be welcome!
Thanks!
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Success!!! And next steps...
Thanks to the posters here i developed enough confidence to buy a used Rega P3/24 with Dynavector 10x5 cartridge & external power supply.
Great to listen to all that vinyl that had been in storage for 30+ years. Amazing to experience the soundstage, emotional involvement and engagement / realism I had forgotten about...
I have the Rega connected to a 36 year old Harmon Kardon 665 Integrated Amp (100W into 8 ohms) and thru Salk HT-2TLs. WAF is over the top - especially after getting turntable set up...in her words "it's truly like listening to live music in our family room"
Here's my question:
I notice that when listening to CD (Cambridge Audio 840c) at normal listening levels (8-9 o'clock) I defeat the tone controls and get pretty good sound. With the Rega, for the same volume I have to move the dial to between 1:00-4:00 and find myself wanting to add bass via the tone controls or by using the "loudness" function...
I wouldnt be surprised if the next thing to upgrade is my HK 665 integrated - but wondered if moving to an external phono pre-amp would give me back the low end I am missing, or if the issue has more to do with my choice of cartridge. Any thoughts here would be welcome!
Thanks!
You could try lowering your VTA a little. You should also give your cartridge some break-in time before you make any changes.
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Success!!! And next steps...
Thanks to the posters here i developed enough confidence to buy a used Rega P3/24 with Dynavector 10x5 cartridge & external power supply.
Great to listen to all that vinyl that had been in storage for 30+ years. Amazing to experience the soundstage, emotional involvement and engagement / realism I had forgotten about...
I have the Rega connected to a 36 year old Harmon Kardon 665 Integrated Amp (100W into 8 ohms) and thru Salk HT-2TLs. WAF is over the top - especially after getting turntable set up...in her words "it's truly like listening to live music in our family room"
Here's my question:
I notice that when listening to CD (Cambridge Audio 840c) at normal listening levels (8-9 o'clock) I defeat the tone controls and get pretty good sound. With the Rega, for the same volume I have to move the dial to between 1:00-4:00 and find myself wanting to add bass via the tone controls or by using the "loudness" function...
I wouldnt be surprised if the next thing to upgrade is my HK 665 integrated - but wondered if moving to an external phono pre-amp would give me back the low end I am missing, or if the issue has more to do with my choice of cartridge. Any thoughts here would be welcome!
Thanks!
"Great to listen to all that vinyl that had been in storage for 30+ years."
Figuring that each complete LP is around 40 min, how many hrs do you think are on the cart?
Was the cart used too?
4 o'clock seems a little excessive. The 10X-5 has a pretty healthy output and I suspect there might be a problem. Where did you get the cart? There was a batch of these a couple of yrs ago that were wired out of phase, internally. I don't know if that is the problem, but it could be. If so, it would exhibit identical problems - loss of bass and low volume. This isn't the first time, Dynevector had bad batches of these before. To check it you have to reverse the + and - leads on one channel.
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If it's this amp, there is a switch for MM, MC on your faceplate and also a capacitance selector switch for loading the cartridge:
(http://audio-heritage.jp/HARMAN_KARDON/amp/pm665vxi.JPG)
Since your cartridge is a "high output" MC, you should have the input set to MM.
Wayner
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Wayner - you nailed it....thanks. Changing to MM solved the volume issue.
Should have figured that one out - I thought it was a MC cartridge :roll:
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Dang, Wayner. I wish I had said that!
Paul
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Can anyone help this newbie out on a question about mats? I think I'm getting a bit of static buildup on my records during listening sessions and it almost seems like the more albums I listen to the more I get snap crackle pop. Could it be that the use of a felt mat on my Rega P3 is contributing to this issue and should I try a cork replacement?
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Can anyone help this newbie out on a question about mats? I think I'm getting a bit of static buildup on my records during listening sessions and it almost seems like the more albums I listen to the more I get snap crackle pop. Could it be that the use of a felt mat on my Rega P3 is contributing to this issue and should I try a cork replacement?
Hey Kinger,
The mat might be adding to your static woes....but as covered in other topics here over time at the Vinyl Circle....using a wet cleaning method seems to be the only truly effective way of curtailing or eliminating the static issue.
Some wash in their sink and let dry au naturel...others (such as myself) use a vacuum cleaning machine (take your pick of manufacturers from VPI to Nitty Gritty and beyond). Both do the job on static to an extent where static is largely a non-issue with records afterwards.
You can experiment with mats all you like, but it's going to affect damping and other matters that may increase or decrease your vinyl pleasure....not likely to change the static issue you have. Don't waste your money on mats hoping for that to be your answer to the static issue...you need to wet clean your records to minimize and eliminate it.
There are anti-static 'guns' such as Zerostat and the like out there that zaps a record to reduce static cling....however, in my experience, it's less effective than simply wet cleaning your records in the first place.
The other benefit of your records once cleaned is that the tracking is better and the noise level is diminished...additional benefits to wet cleaning that aren't replicated with dry cleaning methods out there.
Cheers, John
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Thank John. Actually using a KAB EV-1 RCM with Mo-Fi enzyme cleaner to clean and Aquafina to rinse. Then storing LP's in a Mo-Fi sleeve. Could be that maybe the rice crispies I hear from time to time are not static, but just a damaged record. Considering adding steam to my cleaning regimine, but thought I'd ask about the mat first.
Make no mistake, I've really been enjoying my vinyl experience thus far.
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Can anyone help this newbie out on a question about mats? I think I'm getting a bit of static buildup on my records during listening sessions and it almost seems like the more albums I listen to the more I get snap crackle pop. Could it be that the use of a felt mat on my Rega P3 is contributing to this issue and should I try a cork replacement?
I popped one of Marc Morin's Deer Hide Matts onto the Sondek (in lieu of the stock Linn Felt item) some time back.
There was a distinct reduction in static build up and it's stayed put ever since.
Thanks again Marc :thumb:
(http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/Files/Linn.jpg)
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This may be a stupid question but does static affect audio quality during playback?
When I first got my Project Debut with the standard platter and mat, static was prevalent. Then I got the Acrylit platter and static was gone. Not sure what type of platter your Rega has and if an acrylic one would help. Both of my VPI tables have had no static issues.
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Hi Putz,
I have read of claims of enhanced pops and crackles linked purely to static.
My personal pet hate though is the way a statically charged disc attracts all the air-bourne fluff going and once on the surface is more difficult to remove.
So there's the increased chance of popping a dusty LP back into the sleeve where further embedding is likely to take place.
Cheers
Dave
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Thanks for chiming in guys. The P3 comes with a glass platter so I would think that would be pretty static resistant.
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While looking through a Music Direct catalog this past weekend, I started to wonder about something. Is there a generally accepted rule of thumb as to how much one should spend on a cartridge in relation to the overall price of a turntable? Clearly it doesn't make much sense (at least to me anyway) to spend more on a cart than the price of the table itself, but is there a limit that most of you stay at? Half the cost of the table on cart? 1/4 of the table on a cart? Cart and table the same cost? Just wondering what types of improvements one might expect as you go up in cart price.
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Had a quick question on ground noise.
I currently have the ground wire from the turntable conencted to the chassis on my preamp.
WHile this reduced the ground noise considerably, its still fairly audible once i go past the 11o clock position and quite annoying when listening to the quieter passages on a track.
I notice that when i touch the tonearm and the power switch on the turntable together, the noise floor drops another significant step which would be acceptable.
Any idea what could be causing this? I am thinking of running a wire from the ground wire on the turntable which should be connected to the tonearm body (correct me if i am wrong) to the body of the power switch.
Or should i be looking at something else instead?
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Had a quick question on ground noise.
I currently have the ground wire from the turntable conencted to the chassis on my preamp.
WHile this reduced the ground noise considerably, its still fairly audible once i go past the 11o clock position and quite annoying when listening to the quieter passages on a track.
I notice that when i touch the tonearm and the power switch on the turntable together, the noise floor drops another significant step which would be acceptable.
Any idea what could be causing this? I am thinking of running a wire from the ground wire on the turntable which should be connected to the tonearm body (correct me if i am wrong) to the body of the power switch.
Or should i be looking at something else instead?
Two things you could try. First, disconnect the ground wire from the back of your preamp. Many tonearms don't require them. If that doesn't help, disconnect and then reconnect the cartridge pins. Good luck!
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Guys with record collections unplayed for 30 years need a record cleaner. This may have been recommended already :dunno: I use Spin Clean. Works like a champ and is cheap.
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Two things you could try. First, disconnect the ground wire from the back of your preamp. Many tonearms don't require them. If that doesn't help, disconnect and then reconnect the cartridge pins. Good luck!
The first actually raises the noise floor considerably to non-listenable levels.
I will try rewiring the cartridge and see if that helps.
Thanks.
Need to invest in vinyl care. Thinking
1. disc doctor fluid.
2. VPI or disc doctor brush , one for wet and one for dry cleaning.
3. Zerodust stylus cleaner
4. digital jewel scale for tracking force measurement.
5. Lint free cloth. Does chamois work well here?
Anything else i might have missed?
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Get a record cleaning machine with a vacume to suck the crud out.
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Hello pros! I have been dabbling into turntables lately, with Thorens TD-165 as my main player among such classics as a Philips GA-302 and a near-mint AR-XA. I'm satisfied with Shure carts on the AR and the Philips, and I currently have a Pickering P/AT on the Thorens, which is what was new on the Thorens back in the day, I'm told, by the guy I bought it from. This Pickering is in fact the original cart from back in the mid-70's. I'm on the lookout for a replacement and was suggested a Grado Statement Platinum 1 MC cart ($350). A DG Systems DB-8HG phono pre was the suggested preamp ($200). Any cheaper suggestions? The two come in at $550 total. Thanks for any and all comments. :green:
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Guys with record collections unplayed for 30 years need a record cleaner. This may have been recommended already :dunno: I use Spin Clean. Works like a champ and is cheap.
Ditto; After Spin Cleaning I use Kabs' EV-1 vacuum device to dry and suck any remaining crud out of the grooves. The combo works like a champ! :D
Joe
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Hi. This is an isolation/choice of TT question. My Rega RP1 (on a Solidsteel 3.5 rack) and REL T2 are talking to each other (the passive radiator in the sub 'motorboats' when the sub's volume is high enough for the REL to do its job). This only happens when I'm spinning vinyl.
The floor seems to be the culprit: its an engineered wood floating floor, resting on resilient cork underlayment. The cork is in turn laid w/o adhesive on 1 1/2" of gysum concrete. Beneath the gypcrete is 3/4" plywood nailed over TJI engineered wood floor joists.
When the music is playing (from any source), I can feel the vibration in the wood when I place my hands palms-down on the floor. Heavy footfalls from anywhere on this level of the house (2d floor) resonate dully throughout, and you can hear the low-frequency vibration from them on the first floor.
I am considering both short-term and long-term fixes for this problem. Short-term, how about one of those 4" air-dried maple sub platforms with brass footers from Mapleshade? Long-term, do I need a suspended design TT like a SOTA or a Linn?
Thoughts?
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Hi mike_p,
Yes - it sounds like your non-suspended Rega could use some isolation from its rack....it's locked in and taking the brunt of what the sub is putting out.
I use a 3.5" slab of maple cutting block with brass toes pointing down into it from my (non-suspended VPI) deck. The effect of maple and brass toes is transforming to a vinyl system I found. Look at another topic here in the past couple days about Dawns Maple Platforms before you sink your money into a Mapleshade product....mine is from Dawn and the cost was more than 50% less thru her than Mapleshade for substantially the same thing (a thick maple block)
In your case, under the maple block you may want to invest in some further pliant isolation: cork/rubber feet such as found in HVAC supply stores (normally go under major appliances to quiet them), or there are various (silicone) Herbie's Grungebuster products (they are a vendor here on Audio Circle - look for them) for more money, but they may provide even better isolation. I use Herbie's and have always been pleased with their effects.
Steve Herbelin is the owner and a chatty guy so I suggest speaking to him and getting advice for your specific situation (after you invest in the maple block and brass toes...cheapest that I know of are from Parts Express)
Cheers, John
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Thanks for the fast reply, John. I'll check out Dawns maple products, and check in with Steve also (I'm using his Way Excellent mat and like it).
Best,
Mike
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Thanks for the fast reply, John. I'll check out Dawns maple products, and check in with Steve also (I'm using his Way Excellent mat and like it).
Best,
Mike
Yup - I use his mat, too. I tinkered around with SO many of those over the years.
Once I found his, I simply stopped. There may be better out there - but, I found Herbie's mat was simply good enough for me to concentrate on other deficiencies in my system.
I have the end grain, 3.5" thick rectangle block that Dawn sells....I think with shipping it's like $110 to your door. Some claim that the air-dried, solid maple blocks are better....I haven't tried them to know. The end grain was so good there too, I stopped tinkering around with better supports under my turntable.
Cheers, John
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mike_p,
ever thought about a wall mounted self like a Target (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/27813/Target_Audio-VW1_1-Shelf_Wall_Platform_for_Turntable_185quot_x_162quot-Equipment_Rack)?
I don't have your problem with my tt and subwoofer talking to each other, but i do have a flooring issue. We have beautiful old wood floors in a 100 year old home and with my system set up you could not walk around in the room while spinning vinyl. The wall mount shelf solved that issue well.
cheers, Jim
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Thanks, Jim. I'd forgotten all about that option. It might be impractical for me, tho', since I've got the MMG's about 5' off the front wall to capture that 10 ms delay . . .
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That is, my cables wouldn't be long enough (the speaker cables are 8'). I've currently got the equipment rack in-between the speakers, to take advantage of the dipole's null spots and minimize acoustic feedback from the back of the panels. If I move the rack back near the wall when using a wall mount (to connect the RP1's short integral tonearm wire to the amp), the speaker cables would be too short to have the speakers where they sound best.
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mike_p,
ever thought about a wall mounted self like a Target (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/27813/Target_Audio-VW1_1-Shelf_Wall_Platform_for_Turntable_185quot_x_162quot-Equipment_Rack)?
I don't have your problem with my tt and subwoofer talking to each other, but i do have a flooring issue. We have beautiful old wood floors in a 100 year old home and with my system set up you could not walk around in the room while spinning vinyl. The wall mount shelf solved that issue well.
cheers, Jim
Same here, I have a 2 shelf Linn unit. I have my TT on a 2" spiked butcher block on top of it, phonostage below. I can jump around and not even the slightest bit of effect. I did however use rubberized fender washers under the screw heads and thick rubber grommets between the shelf and wall. It does everything it's supposed to do.
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This conversation has been really helpful and has re invigorated my interest in vinyl. As Mr. Chair has mentioned frustration dialing everything in is part of the territory.
I picked up a Merrill modded ar xa that had a modified motor and a polymer subchasis. I added new springs, and a new polymer pulley. Then chucked on a used rb300 arm which came with the Riggle VTA system and an Incognito counter weight. The only thing left to do is replace the platter with the Merrill system. I wonder how different some of the newer table designs are from this resurrected classic? Is it worth putting in more money to this suspended chassis design?
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This conversation has been really helpful and has re invigorated my interest in vinyl. As Mr. Chair has mentioned frustration dialing everything in is part of the territory.
I picked up a Merrill modded ar xa that had a modified motor and a polymer subchasis. I added new springs, and a new polymer pulley. Then chucked on a used rb300 arm which came with the Riggle VTA system and an Incognito counter weight. The only thing left to do is replace the platter with the Merrill system. I wonder how different some of the newer table designs are from this resurrected classic? Is it worth putting in more money to this suspended chassis design?
marz, great question . . . I would say maybe :D As a 'hot rodded' AR ES-1 TT owner (w/ BaMorin's help) i think that is part of the vinyl trek i'm on . . . i think there is an esthetics as to how one approaches one's 'gear' as my used vinyl shop dealer calls it ... i know personally i have a few things i can/will do with my 'rig' in the future yet when its spinning and :rock: and :banana piano: well . . . it makes me :) cheers, Jim
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<Edit> Never Mind... Issue solved. No way to delete from the forum I guess.
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<Edit> Never Mind... Issue solved. No way to delete from the forum I guess.
Out of curiosity what was the problem? I did read your original post, but I'm not familiar with your Denon.
That's a v nice table you picked up.
Welcome to vinyl.
Joe
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Out of curiosity what was the problem? I did read your original post, but I'm not familiar with your Denon.
That's a v nice table you picked up.
Welcome to vinyl.
Joe
Thank you for asking. Sorry for deleting the post. I just felt kinda stupid (even for a newb).
The short version for those who didn't see:
I got a deal on a used VPI Scout table with Grado Reference Sonata1 cartridge. Just getting back into vinyl, so its been since the mid-80s since I had a turntable.
It sounded great at its former home but upon getting home not so much. The high end sounded mostly like white noise. I was wondering if it could be the phono input in my Denon 4311 receiver (temporary until I do some more research on a proper phono preamp or integrated with HT bypass).
The solution: I got a Shure Tracking Force Gauge, set it to 1.5g and now all is well. I thought it would survive the short transport with all settings intact, but apparantly the counterweight just slightly moved in transit, so tracking force was well below 1g. I downloaded the tonearm manual and it appears the other settings are at least very close.
Its sounds great now - very happy with it so far.
Gz
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Thanks for the update. I was curious and hadn't thought of that.
Joe
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I am thinking of getting back to spinning vinyl. Though I have given away most of the records - I still have some. I am thinking of getting a table in the office - away from the three year old.
I am looking for a good table that I can live with without a lot of tinkering - possibly as a trade ... VPI's traveller turntable review on stereophole really piqued my interest ... something better that Rega while not requiring you to be a bonafide tweaked to spin some records.
It is funny that I am looking for a music server and a TT at the same time :-)
Appreciate your input.
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Welcome back to vinyl! You may wish to peruse the following topics on turntables:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111324.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110393.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109378.0
Similarly, there are topics about cartridges as well:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110666.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111455.0
And these are just on the last two pages on my browser!
I love checking out
vinylnirvana dot com
for TT's in the Linn/AR/Thorens range, all used.
And you can buy one that will require very, very little to set up on arrival.
Lots of options!
I love my highly modified VPI HW-19 that used to be John The Chair Guy's rig.
Don't forget to frequent the Source Components area of AudioCircle where members sell items.
I've always had good fortune with our members. Many transactions!
Paul
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Super thanks Paul ...
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So Ive got a bit of an isolation issue as well. Heavy footfalls on my suspended floor skip the stylus a bit on my VPI Scout. I've got it level on a 2 1/2" maple block that is in turn on isopods on a cheapie VTI rack. I have yet to fill the tubes of the rack, but am not convinced that will completely solve the problem of having a very live floor. What I was thinking of doing, since my listening room is over an unfinished portion of my basement is to try a couple of floor jacks on the joists that are just outside of the footprint of the rack so as to put the floor into a little bit of tension with the load bearing wall that is behind it. I'm not sure if this will actually fix the problem or make it worse, but since I have some 1 1/2" gas pipe from a welding project and a couple of scaffolding screw-jacks, I thought I'd five it a try. At the moment, I don't want to go with a wall shelf but feel it's probably going to be my only option ultimately. Any input would be appreciated.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71063)
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Here's my noob question (the short version):
It is in regard to the wire colors on an Ortofon cart. They're different that the colors of the wires in my headshell.
I put:
White - White
Green - Green
Red - Red (although it's more of an orange color on the cart???)
Black - Blue
I get zero output (to the speakers) from the needle. I can touch my finger to it, and get nothing. But if I put my finger back on the bare terminals, that can be heard through the speakers loudly like you'd expect.
So....I tried swapping a couple wires with the same result. Before I screw something up, what am I missing? :scratch:
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Here's my noob question (the short version):
It is in regard to the wire colors on an Ortofon cart. They're different that the colors of the wires in my headshell.
I put:
White - White
Green - Green
Red - Red (although it's more of an orange color on the cart???)
Black - Blue
I get zero output (to the speakers) from the needle. I can touch my finger to it, and get nothing. But if I put my finger back on the bare terminals, that can be heard through the speakers loudly like you'd expect.
So....I tried swapping a couple wires with the same result. Before I screw something up, what am I missing? :scratch:
Bob,
Red, Green = Right Channel
White, Blue = Left Channel
If I understand what you're saying there appears to be a problem with that cartridge. Have you tried it on an other arm, & is it known to be a working cartridge? Does a different cartridge work on that arm? Again it may be a problem with the cartridge. With a DVM you may be able to check the cartridge pins for continuity. BTW, if this is a LOMC are you supplying enough gain to hear it???
Jeff
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Define "Splatter".
I think I'm experiencing it. Sometimes cymbals or hi-hats have a ssss to them and sound somewhat distorted / like there breaking up. Is that splatter :?:
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Bob,
Red, Green = Right Channel
White, Blue = Left Channel
If I understand what you're saying there appears to be a problem with that cartridge. Have you tried it on an other arm, & is it known to be a working cartridge? Does a different cartridge work on that arm? Again it may be a problem with the cartridge. With a DVM you may be able to check the cartridge pins for continuity. BTW, if this is a LOMC are you supplying enough gain to hear it???
Jeff
Jeff, thank you very much. The reasoning being the color codes is very helpful, indeed.
Here's some answers to your questions, and some more 'back story':
- The table was just taken out of storage. Just before it was put into storage, it was played with the Shure cart and it sounded great. Now, not so much. It makes music, just a bit muffled sounding. I discovered that the tip of the needle is bent. I'm assuming that's a very presice angle and there's no way I can bend it back?
- I have two carts. The Ortofon and a Shure. The Shure is the bent one. The Ortofon is the one that is inoperative. I do not have the ability to check it on another arm. I do have a DVOM. Would I be checking for "zero" between the left circuit terminals and same on the right? And I'd assume there should be no continuity between left and right channels?
- The cart and headshell have different color codes, but knowing the logic behind the colors is most helpful.
- I didn't know what LOMC was, but Google provided me with the definition. Despite knowing the definition, I'm not sure what I have. That's gonna take some research on my part. :lol:
I hate being a noob. :duh: :lol:
Bob
EDIT: I checked both carts, and there is no continuity between any of the four pins. :scratch:
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Jeff, thank you very much. The reasoning being the color codes is very helpful, indeed.
Here's some answers to your questions, and some more 'back story':
- The table was just taken out of storage. Just before it was put into storage, it was played with the Shure cart and it sounded great. Now, not so much. It makes music, just a bit muffled sounding. I discovered that the tip of the needle is bent. I'm assuming that's a very presice angle and there's no way I can bend it back?
- I have two carts. The Ortofon and a Shure. The Shure is the bent one. The Ortofon is the one that is inoperative. I do not have the ability to check it on another arm. I do have a DVOM. Would I be checking for "zero" between the left circuit terminals and same on the right? And I'd assume there should be no continuity between left and right channels?
- The cart and headshell have different color codes, but knowing the logic behind the colors is most helpful.
- I didn't know what LOMC was, but Google provided me with the definition. Despite knowing the definition, I'm not sure what I have. That's gonna take some research on my part. :lol:
I hate being a noob. :duh: :lol:
Bob
EDIT: I checked both carts, and there is no continuity between any of the four pins. :scratch:
Bob,
so it sounds like the Shure works, but not very well? Bending the cantilever back is not easy to do. Depends on how bent it is. It's very fragile & can break off. If the Shure is providing sound then there is a problem with the Ortofon.
Does the Ortofon have a fixed stylus or is it one that comes off & can be replaced? Do you have the model of the Ortofon? If the stylus comes off, try removing it and putting it back on. Maybe it's no seated properly.
To further elaborate on the colors:
Left Channel: White
Left Channel Ground: Blue
Right Channel: Red
Right Channel Ground: Green
With the DVM you can check continuity from the cartridge pins (while connected to the headshell) to the ends of you interconnects. This probably won't help much seeing that you Shure doesn't exhibit the same problem. I still think there is an issue with that Ortofon.
Jeff
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Thank you for the continued tech support Jeff.
The Ortofon FF15XE MkII is dead. Knowing the rhyme and reason behind the wire colors helped to wire it up despite the mismatched colors of the headshell. I tried again, but its output is absolutlely nothing, at any volume.
Yes, the Shure M91E worked, but not very well. I bent the cantilever back as best as possible and wired it back up.
It's now working much much better. I gave my 9 year old daughter the meager box of donated reords and told her to choose which one we'll listen to, assuming I get this all fixed.
Turns out "Thriller" is the best sounding vinyl I've got. I'll have to change that. ASAP. :duh:
Things are getting better. Thanks again!
Bob
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Bob
If you want to get the Shure going for little money, this JICO sourced stylus will fit the bill. Many or us on Audiokarma have used it with good success.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/STYLUS-SHURE-HI-TRACK-N91G-M91G-M91ED-N91ED-N91E-M91E-RS-1000E-761-DE-DED-/200880339866?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item2ec566bb9a
Carole is in Ok. so should get to you fairly quickly
Jack
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Jack, thank you. I'll be buying one of those for sure.
Something tells me that a $13 purchase that improves sound quality of vinyl doesn't come along very often.
So I'm just going to buy it and shut up. :lol:
Define "Splatter".
I think I'm experiencing it. Sometimes cymbals or hi-hats have a ssss to them and sound somewhat distorted / like there breaking up. Is that splatter :?:
You might be refering to "cymbalince"[sp?], with "splatter" being the next level of discomfort. Not sure though, but they're both in the same are me thinks.
Bob
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Bob
While it isn't quite up to the level of a NOS American made M91 stylus it does beat the Mexican versions and JICO sells the same stylus on their website for over $30 plus $10 in shipping. It does however need to track at 1.5 grams and not the .75-1.25 grams of the original. Good luck with your new journey.
Jack
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While it isn't quite up to the level of a NOS American made M91 stylus it does beat the Mexican versions and JICO sells the same stylus on their website for over $30 plus $10 in shipping. It does however need to track at 1.5 grams and not the .75-1.25 grams of the original.
Well..... :roll:
THe first part of your statement doesn't bother me at all. I'm not an elitist, and I do have a budget, so I'm cool with it.
It's the second part that made me throw my hands in the air.
Sounds like I need to buy a guage ("scale") of some sort?
Bob
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Bob
As I am late to this discussion, I don't know what TT you have so can't tell you how accurate the scale on the TT might be. But as to a stylus gauge, yes one does come in handy. You can always buy the trusty Shure one, had mine since the 70's, or a digital Jewelers scale from Ebay. If you just balance the arm and zero out the scale on the TT and then set it to 1.5 grams you will be in "the ballpark." If it mistracks then raise it up .1 grams at a time until it tracks correctly. I have had TT's where the counterweight scale was close and some where it wasn't. Just trial and error if you don't want to buy anything else.
Jack
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Hey Jack,
I've got a stock AR-XA.
From what I understand, it's one of the tables with the least amount of adjustments, but that is one aspect that is adjustable.
Looks like another piece of equipment is in my future. Thanks for the heads-up. :D
Bob
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How does this jewelers scale look (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pocket-Jewelry-Digital-Scale-600g-x-0-1g-Jewelers-Lab-Electronic-Weighs-Pawn-New-/390480997903?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aea7b2e0f)?
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Hello All,
I have been exploring the idea of getting into vinyl for a couple of years. I read all 11 pages here and ther posts before writing this. I spend most of my time in the Salk and Bryston forums, I listen to a lot of SACDs and well mastered CDs, but I think vinyl can open me me to more music that I can't get on Hi rez formats. I bought some awesome Salk SoundScape8 speakers earlier this year and I think I want to buy a turntable. I want the TT and phonostage to be as good as my other components so I get the full effect of the "new to me"/old format. I have an Oppo BDP 105 Bluray for hi rez SACD music and Cambridge Audio 840C Cd player for CD duties. I put that through a Bryston SP 1.7 in pure Bypass in 2 Channel and Bryston 14BST amp in a well acoustically treated room.
The system sounds great, so now I need help picking out the gear that will sound the best in my room, with little tinkering. I read opinions in the forum generally saying that at some price point a TT will sound better that a great CD player, which I think I have here..so how much more do I have to spend to get the next level? I was thinking of VPI or Rega, Clearaudio...with the cost of a phono stage and a TT, could I get better sound than my digital components at 2, 3, or 4K?...I think my MAX would be 5K for everything. I figure with the money I have tied up in gear now, that I should be able to get a really nice analog set up with maybe some accessories....so Please, if you had to start frome scratch with the existing gear I have, what would you do? Thanks in advance, Pete
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Hi , just started looking into the tt stuff. Lots to learn here, but I have to ask one question.
What is up with 2 and 3 armed tt. Are they for lazy people, when one craps out, the second one can be
used and when that one goes the 3rd can be used??? :scratch:
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Different qulity arms and different cartridges. Maybe a mono catridgee also used.
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Laziness?! Hardly!
One arm / cart is tons of work. Vinylistas are the hardest working peeps in audio. :thumb:
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My wife asked for a turntable for Christmas :thumb: I about lost it, she has never expressed interest in gear, although she uses the main/family system everyday. It's a system that is a bit of a compromise and not a big budget affair. The most important thing to me is that it is accessible and easily used by others so music fills the house as much as possible. I was wondering if the vinyl aficionados have any input or recommendations on the following system. Please note that I am extremely budget driven. Possible kid number two, and I'm saving 30% of my income to be hell bent on early retirement in the distant future, so I have to have a sound strategy for any additions, mods, or changes. One thing that caught my eye was the Hagerman Coronet3, but I will need to save up a few months after Christmas to do it. Man as a Dad I've become a cheap bastard! I don't spend the audio money I used too. Lastly I am totally new to vinyl, but am excited about it. I can easily hit up the Jazz Record Mart on lunch in Chicago :D
Pre: Parasound ZPre 2
Turntable Audio-Technica AT-LP120-USB (just arrived yesterday along with Shure adjustment tool)
Amp: Gary Dodd built Class D SDS-254 (sweet amp!)
Speakers: Soundfeild Sam-1
Apple Airport Express
Musical Fidelity V-Dac (first gen, also have a Peachtree Dac iTX that could be thrown in)
Happy Holidays :thumb:
Paul
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Hello AudioCircle, my name is Francis and I am a vinyl addict! Like many out there I was swayed by the lure of sparkly bright highs and lightning fast response of digital recordings! The attraction was so great that I fell def to my friend's and family's advice to stand strong. Like the flashy lights and polyester of 'Disco' I displayed weakness to the glitz and glamour. My pursuit of nirvana had me hunting down digital-to-analogue decoders, buffers and clocks, all of which promised better sound! A promise of, I dare say, a more "Analogue" kind of sound! I should have caught on, I should have seen it!
"A more Analogue like sound!" Why did I not see it? I suffered for many years buying and selling gear, switching out cables, spraying formulas and salves all promising better sound! I was continuously lead to the door, but it remained locked, jammed or wedged closed! So close it was that I ran to it like a fiend!
I abandoned audio altogether and stored my gear. I began watching television but cringed at the advertisments for better sound for your 'digital' TV! I had hit bottom! I lay destitute and broken... till... one cloudy nondescript day, my son asked.. "Dad how do LPs sound and why did they go out of favor?" Though the clouds of discourse a shard of blinding light pierced the gloom! Thinking heavily for, what seemed a dog's age, I answered with... "I'll bring out my old gear, set it up and you can hear and decide for yourself!"
From the moment the needle touched the black licorice, memories flooded my mind! So quiet this table is! Then... the music came through. It didn't strike me like the bold, abrasive, uninvited guest like Digital, but polite harmonious and natural! Like an old friend barring good tidings, the notes bloomed into the room with fluidity, ease and a silkiness of ... of how can I describe it Analogue! Yes Analogue! Suddenly the familiar sound of Music appeared in the room. I was no longer listening to my gear, but Music, the same Music that excited me so long ago! The sound of Music!
I'm Back!
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Just ordered my first turntable in over 25 years, a Rega RP-6 with Exact-2 cartridge. Since my preamp doesn't have a phono stage, I also ordered a Rega Fono MM phono preamp.
The cartridge will be factory installed so I don't think the setup should be too challenging. In anticipation of this purchase I've bought about a dozen LP's to get started.
I don't have a record cleaning devices, not even a brush.
I expect the turntable to arrive Wednesday or Thursday. Any newbie advice or suggestions for getting started would be welcomed.
Bob
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Hey Bob, good choices! Get a bubble level and make sure your new table is as level as you can manage. I've used playing cards under a foot to help dial it in. You'll want to splurge for a cleaning device soon. I have a Spin Clean and a VPI and both will do a decent job. My preference is the VPI, but it is more involved. Congrats on the new table and getting back into vinyl. Enjoy the trip!
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Hi Bob,
I have an Rega RP-3 with the Exact MM (Not the new model 2) w
ith ProJect ss phono stage.
The Rega TT and MM cartridge are good,
but the Project phono stage does not have enough gain.
I also have the inexpensive Spin Clean (From Amazon)
and I am very satisfied with it.
I've cleaned 80 LPs, time consuming, but did a good job.
I also have a 30 years old brush, still work fine.
I also have an LP clamp with built in buble level,
that's a must have item.
Guy 13
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It's a good thing to remember there are additional expenses of record cleaning, stylus cleaning, and a carbon fiber brush and other do dads. It's not exactly brain surgery, but set up separates the okay from the amazingly like music with a good recording. That's the intimidating news, and the good news - you have choices right from the beginning. You might want DIY record cleaning with a $100 machine from Canada and your own vac, or an ultrasonic no tooth decay cleaner for $4K or so.
If you learn the set up stuff from the get go you'll develop the confidence and knowledge to make intelligent choices and hear for yourself what you like. The other side of that is audiofool itis - the race to the top $ spent, bragging rights etc.
neo
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Just ordered my first turntable in over 25 years, a Rega RP-6 with Exact-2 cartridge. Since my preamp doesn't have a phono stage, I also ordered a Rega Fono MM phono preamp.
The cartridge will be factory installed so I don't think the setup should be too challenging. In anticipation of this purchase I've bought about a dozen LP's to get started.
I don't have a record cleaning devices, not even a brush.
I expect the turntable to arrive Wednesday or Thursday. Any newbie advice or suggestions for getting started would be welcomed.
Bob
Don't be intimidated by set up. It's not as hard as some would lead you to believe. And, cleanliness IS next to godliness, and good sound.
Doc
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A good brush, one for records, one for the stylus, and a cheap electronic tracking force gauge are essentials. Here's a good little scale http://www.dx.com/p/ds-11-1-5-lcd-20g-0-001g-portable-mini-digital-scale-w-blue-backlight-black-silver-2-x-aaa-365665#.Vud2PnopAv4 I have a similar model. Brushes are cheap, any carbon fiber record brush will do for starters. I like the discwasher stylus brush, some like a softer, art brush type. Good luck, have fun.
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Sorry I didn't comment sooner but I've been busy fussing and listening.
I received the table yesterday. Naturally I unpacked it and tried to set it up as soon as I got home from work. Mercifully, the cartridge was factory installed. I found the included instructions for setting up the tracking force and anti-bias somewhat lacking, at least for someone who's been out of analog as long as I have. I called my dealer, who walked me through it. Later I found better instructions on the Rega website, and managed to fine tune it. Initially, I'd set it too light and it was lifting on some records. Now I think I've got it right.
I'm sure you all know this already but the sound is different, better, more natural and organic than even the best of my SACD's or high resolution DSD and FLAC files. It's hard to describe the difference but it's there.
I'm not sure what I was expecting but I'm really surprised how solid and weighty the base is with this table/arm/cartridge combination has. My dealer didn't like the interconnects that I was using between the Fono MM and my BAT VK-30i, so he's sending me another brand to try, which he suggested would open up the highs more. They don't sound "closed" to me now, but I'll report on them when I get them.
I appreciate the comments and suggestions about the need for a record cleaner. I'll need one soon; and a tracking force gauge to confirm that I've got it setup right.
Between last night and tonight, I've listened to all of my meager vinyl collection, but more is on the way.
Bottom line, no disappointments. It was worth the wait and worth the investment.
Bob
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I just received new Chameleon Silver Plus interconnects, from The Chord Company, for the connection between the Fono MM and the BAT VK30. They seem to have opened up the higher frequencies and evened out the frequency response compared to the MIT 330 cables I started with.
I'm supposed to head upstate for dinner with a beautiful woman. I should leave soon. I may be late.
Bob
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Smart people, is there a rule of thumb on $ spent on cart vs cost of turntable ? or go with the most expensive cart you can because the cart makes more difference to the sound than the TT ,no??
thanks
Scott
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Smart people, is there a rule of thumb on $ spent on cart vs cost of turntable ? or go with the most expensive cart you can because the cart makes more difference to the sound than the TT ,no??
thanks
Scott
Consider your arm the deciding factor, and get the best match that you can also afford to replace regularly.
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I am resurrecting a Garrard Zero one hundred from Dad’s basement. I hooked it up and got a hum out of it so I used some deoxit and cleaned the cartridge contacts as well as the point where the RCAs connect underneath.The hum went away for a while, (think the AQ RCAs I replaced originals with are touching underneath) but the sound was good when working with no hum.
The other situation I discovered is the arm does not pickup and return to the stand when it finishes playing. Any thoughts on this?
My plan is to pull the platter off and lube the motor. Plus do other maintenance, while underneath it, I’d like to see if the auto return is an easy fix, or if It needs to go to someone more experienced?
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The Garrard Zero 100 is the most Rube Goldberg contraption ever to be created in autoplay turntables. Oddly, when Garrard was having money trouble, they designed a turntable where if it need one part, they made it have eight instead. (look at just the platter. It has at least fifteen parts!) Anyway, I would say be careful under the hood. It may just be due to a weak spring. or a wrong spring. Or a slightly bent piece of the tin they used. If you have it on it's side. And move the arm.. you should be able to spot the moment it SHOULD be moving the lever to start the return contraption. Once you know what lever os the starter, I would try to activate it by hand.. and see if it will return the arm (then you know it COULD work vs it is all messed up)
The arm base (or somewhere near) should have a hole and under it a screw (or the screw visible. I forget) anyway, the screw moved the arm pickup point. If that is all it is. easy :thumb:
More that that.. gets complex fast.