[Zitoun]

Hello,

I'd like to get some advice on the new layout I am designing as I am going to upgrade my old system.

Here is the current room configuration:









My hardware is quiet rudimentary but I do like it for the price it cost me.

- PS Audio GCHA DAC + Headphone Amp
- Integrated Amp Cambridge Topaz Sr20
- BW Bookshelf  speakers (686) mounted on laptop stand

I use it mainly for TV, Electronic music, Soul, Hip Hop

I like the speed of the bass, the sharp detail in the high frequencies.
It's a good system but the caveats are they are not giving any soundstage, lack of mids at low levels, that sounds boxy, it's difficult to listen for a long period of time, that becomes fatiguing as they are quiet bright, and the speakers need to be pushed at a high volume to be able to listen to all frequencies properly, which ends up by turning it down after 5mn.
On the room conifguration, the speakers sounds like they are 2 km away when on the sofa, so we have to push the volume, but then it's too loud, and overload the room.

My intention is to have a different setup for music listening because I can't move the furnitures.
I did prepare the living room by selling some furniture and getting some more room near the sliding glass door.
I will be adding some velvet curtain soon to attenuate the effect of the glass on the sound, and then find some good tower speakers that can spark some magic in the room even at low volume.

I went to a couple of shops, got some demo of 4 / 6000 $ high end system, but I was really disapointed, I thought that it does not worth it for the money you spend, I'd better pay for a trip in a festival and get acces to 10 concerts. the systems they had was just not that far from my BW 686, it didn't really make me feel anything special.
Same thing with Headphones, I got a Focal Elear on Sale, that is a very good pair, but to get a 10% improvement you are looking at 4000$ for headphones... seriously... not a really good way to invest money !

My conclusion was that in order to get to a system where you can say ''Oaw... this is really amazing'', you have to invest 20k or you have to know exactly in what you are investing to maximize the returns, including the room.

Long story short, the option I am reviewing right now (but not limited to) are:
- Tekton DI
- Magnapan (open baffle)
- NX-Otica (open baffle)

Let me know what you think about this project and from your experience what couldd possibly be the cheapest way to improve the system (including the room) to a level where you can enter the living room with your family, turn on the stereo and make everybody dance and/or listen to appreciate the emotion filling the room.

Note: I can't move the Sofa from the rear wall.

Thanks,

[poseidonsvoice]

Hi!

Where is your main listening position(s) given that you cannot move the sofa? And where can you place your existing B&W 686 speakers or where do you plan on placing the “new” speakers?

If you do not mind upload the same layout you just did but with markings of the listening position(s) and possible speaker locations since this is a shared space. We do not want to be confused about this. Please be realistic and honest.

Please describe in DETAIL what your floor/ceiling and walls are made out of, ie the construction materials.

If you have a live picture of the space that might be useful for us too. 

Thank you,
Anand.

[JLM]

Nice images.

No, you don't have a good system, not with all your complaints.  Your room is problematic, speaker placement would tend to promote bass boom and severely limit soundstage.  Never have been a fan of B & W speakers.  I assume you sit on the back wall opposite the TV for serious listening. 

Curious, what's your source?  The PS Audio GCHA is old, suggest replacing it and your source with something like a $1650 NAD C658 streamer/DAC/preamp.  Can be controlled wirelessly via smartphone or computer, uses it's own operating system, no computer needed to operate, does MQA if you're interested via Tidal, even has Dirac room correction installed. 

Don't buy acoustical treatments by looks or intuition.  What you need is less room interactive speakers.  Don't see a good place for floor standers, especially dipole/Open Baffle which need more open space on all sides.  Suggest you consider Amphion Argon 3S monitors.  It is very placement and room friendly and an honest reproducer of sound (the company also sells professional monitors).  Images well, has good detail, and performs well at lower volume levels.  It uses a passive radiator to provide better/more bass and a controlled directivity tweeter wave guide to improve room insensitivity. 

You mention points of diminishing returns.  No more true than in audio.  OTOH it's a great time to find good value at the lower end of the price range.

[Zitoun]

Hi!

Where is your main listening position(s) given that you cannot move the sofa? And where can you place your existing B&W 686 speakers or where do you plan on placing the “new” speakers?

If you do not mind upload the same layout you just did but with markings of the listening position(s) and possible speaker locations since this is a shared space. We do not want to be confused about this. Please be realistic and honest.

Please describe in DETAIL what your floor/ceiling and walls are made out of, ie the construction materials.

If you have a live picture of the space that might be useful for us too. 

Thank you,
Anand.

Hello thanks for the questions Anand


here are some answers:

Current BW placement: on the side of the TV
Listening position on the sofa see below (may have more than 1 listenener)
In red the location of future new speakers







Measurements



Construcyion of wall: plaster
Contrustion of floor: wood
Consstruction of ceiling:wood

[JLM]

Have you tried moving your speakers to the proposed locations?  It would help open up the sound stage.  Note that the ideal location under this concept would be to pull them roughly 1.5 meters away from the French doors.  And regardless the coffee table is bad for floor bounce.  But I envision several problems with the proposed locations:

1.)  Very low spousal acceptance;

2.)  Would block access to the French doors;

3.)  Would block the view out of the French doors;

4.)  Would be very disconcerting for listening through them to the TV;

5.)  No apparent good way to run the wires to the speakers;

6.)  Placing speakers in front of large amounts of glass is not recommended (glass being extremely reflective).


Is that a subwoofer you're showing between the proposed speaker locations?  If so that's perhaps the worst possible place acoustically to put it.  Suggest putting the (wireless) sub behind the end table at the end of the couch. 

Did you mean drywall versus plaster?  Believe it or not plaster is much harder/more reflective than drywall. 

[Zitoun]

Have you tried moving your speakers to the proposed locations?  It would help open up the sound stage.  Note that the ideal location under this concept would be to pull them roughly 1.5 meters away from the French doors. 

No because it will require speaker stands and the sound direction won't fit with the TV. I will basically need a new pair for the TV anyway. So that will be a waste of time and money.

And regardless the coffee table is bad for floor bounce.  But I envision several problems with the proposed locations:

I know but I'd rather keep it as a living space to share with family and friends. Maybe I'll investigate on the table material later

1.)  Very low spousal acceptance;

Already negociated 

2.)  Would block access to the French doors;
3.)  Would block the view out of the French doors;
4.)  Would be very disconcerting for listening through them to the TV;
5.)  No apparent good way to run the wires to the speakers;
6.)  Placing speakers in front of large amounts of glass is not recommended (glass being extremely reflective).

2.Only the door in the middle can open, I couldn't find the exact model in the 3d tool (for free)

3.I could simply put them aside whenever I feel like watching the neighboors would be my occupation of the day .

4. Except if it's a dedicated pair used for music only(can setup a second pair of speaker on my amplifier with the A/B buton and output.

5. Already did that in the past sucessfully, this is not the best to have 5-10 meters of speaker wires, but I am not at the level of arguing on cables and snake oil by any mean.



6. I wil add these curtains to limit the sound reflection soon

Is that a subwoofer you're showing between the proposed speaker locations?  If so that's perhaps the worst possible place acoustically to put it.  Suggest putting the (wireless) sub behind the end table at the end of the couch.

That's a great proposition, I'll probably have to test different positions, but that will make it easier to have it there.

Did you mean drywall versus plaster?  Believe it or not plaster is much harder/more reflective than drywall.

Not 100% sure it sounds like thicker and more solid than drywall, it's an old building, so I wouldn't be surprised these walls are filled with bricks and covered with plaster.

Thank you.

[poseidonsvoice]

Zitoun,

I would try to elucidate what is behind the plaster on the “walls.” Perhaps talk to the land owner, etc...

It makes a tremendous difference on whether those walls are brick/concrete vs drywall especially with regards to room modal ringing, reflections and damping possibilities.

Best,
Anand.

[JLM]

You can easily experiment with the proposed speaker locations with your existing speakers using chairs/stools for stands and buying 16 gauge bulk wire to use as speaker cable (like we routinely did 40 years ago before Monster "convinced" audiophiles that something better was needed).

Whatever you do it'll be a compromise in that room.  The speakers you listed above are large, awkward to move, and block a lot of the view.  You need to decide what kind of sound you want as the speakers you listed have completely different presentations.  Personally not sold on the Tekton midrange array or the dipole sound from your other choices, but any of your options are designed for far-field listening which your room can't really provide.  Would also suggest a whole new system to support speakers of that caliber.  Your proposed layout doesn't afford enough room behind or in front of these speakers.  Would you run that tube under the floor slab/joists?  If so, what's the point of the tube?  If running on top of the floor there are better solutions (like hollow raceway thresholds). 

Again precious few effective options exist to acoustically treat the French doors, the only available acoustic drapes are heavy, ugly, expensive, and minimally effective.  The best solution would be fabric wrapped framed panels of Roxul or Owens Corning 703 that you'd move in front of the French doors when listening.  Then you'd be moving panels and speakers every time you wanted to listen and have lots of clutter the rest of the time.

It's your call, but I still like my suggestion of Amphion Argon 3S sitting on either side of the TV.  Other alternatives are the JBL 705P ($2000/pair) or 708P ($4000/pair) reference (professional) studio monitors also use controlled directivity and are active (built-in amps, one per driver).  I owned the 708P and they are some of the very best speakers money can buy.  Very dynamic, room filling, detailed, meant for mid-field listening, even have built-in DACs and room correction.  But they only accept AES/EBU digital or XLR analog inputs.  Either would pair well with the afore mentioned NAD C658 and would suggest putting them on either side of the TV.

[youngho]

I use it mainly for TV, Electronic music, Soul, Hip Hop

I like the speed of the bass, the sharp detail in the high frequencies.
It's a good system but the caveats are they are not giving any soundstage, lack of mids at low levels, that sounds boxy, it's difficult to listen for a long period of time, that becomes fatiguing as they are quiet bright, and the speakers need to be pushed at a high volume to be able to listen to all frequencies properly, which ends up by turning it down after 5mn.
On the room conifguration, the speakers sounds like they are 2 km away when on the sofa, so we have to push the volume, but then it's too loud, and overload the room.

Let me know what you think about this project and from your experience what couldd possibly be the cheapest way to improve the system (including the room) to a level where you can enter the living room with your family, turn on the stereo and make everybody dance and/or listen to appreciate the emotion filling the room.

Note: I can't move the Sofa from the rear wall.

It seems like you may have somewhat contradictory goals with respect to your room and furniture placement. For stereo setups, soundstage and imaging typically benefit from having a more symmetric environment with respect to the speakers. If you have speakers in front of or flanking the French doors, the right speaker is next to the fireplace while the left is next to the dining rooms, so sound radiating out towards the sides of the speakers would reflect differently. Controlled directivity speakers may interact less with room boundaries to some extent, so that might be worth considering, and some CD designs like the Dutch & Dutch 8C and Gradient 1.4 can be positioned relatively or very close to the wall behind them. A constant beamwidth transducer (CBT) design like the discontinued Epique CBT24 would be the opposite approach but very amenable to filling the room up to a distance of ten feet or so with relatively consistent sound  regardless of position, which would be perfect for multiple people dancing around the room.

For stereo, in the setup you depicted, the cheapest way to improve the room would be to hang minimum 4" (preferably 6-8" for broader band absorption, not just the midrange and higher frequencies) depth absorption on the wall above the back of the couch, the side not next to the fireplace, which may help mitigate the effects of sitting so close to the wall behind the sofa. I would also stand similar absorption panels on the fireplace hearth, which would help create a more symmetric acoustic environment around the stereo speakers.

For TV, I wouldn't make much effort, since the speakers just can't be positioned very far apart from each other in the setup you have, unless you move the media cabinet and TV from their current location.

[Zitoun]

There are a lot of thoughts here,

Thanks for all of this Anand, JLM, youngho.

To summarize everything and quote JLM, the elephant is in the room, so I have to solve this problem first, as this will always be my biggest limiting factor.

Here is a new approach that must go trough the WACPA (Wife Acceptance Criteria Approval Process).






I think it solves all of the biggest issues you highlighted (symetry, Recess issues, reflection on glass, people circulation, cables, directivity of sound with TV)

- Benefits I see:
  - Less investment in treating the room
  - Can resell my bookshelves speakers (free-up some more room)
  - May not need a subwoofer in this configuration
  - Less investment in long cables/raceway

- Caveats I see:
  - block 2nd access to the corridor, but can be covered with a velvet curtain
  - the left speaker rear will face the chimney directly (that will probaly need to be treated as oungho mentioned.

Let me know if this is a good idea or not at all, before I go to the WACPA Executive Comitee !
 
@Anan I'll ask for the wall construction material, I'll get back to you.

[sunnydaze]

I would try a diagonal setup.  In acoustically difficult or odd shaped rooms, this is often a VG way to go.

In your first pic above (reply #9) I would use the lower right corner as the speaker anchor point.  I would place the speakers across that corner and fire them towards the dining table.  In other words, the L speaker would be approx where the fireplace ends and the R speaker would be roughly where the lower person is sitting in that diagram.

You can place your gear in that corner, and cable runs would be short and not underfoot.  Also, you could still use the entryway (lower left corner) that is now blocked by the sofa, as it will be behind the speakers.

I would then place the L shaped sofa against the double doors -- forward of them so access to the doors is not blocked.   This seating setup actually makes the fireplace more useable and less awkward when relaxing in the room.

I don't know if this setup leaves enough room for your dining table....or if the sofa would block your kitchen access.  I'll leave that to you and your tape measure to figure out.  But it's worth considering.   My instincts and eyes tell me it gives you the best sonic chance in that room.  And assuming all your furniture fits, I also think it's the most liveable. 

I have used diagonal setups in the past and they worked well when nothing else did.

(Sorry for the rotated image, don't know how to fix it.)

[poseidonsvoice]

Note: I can't move the Sofa from the rear wall.

So is this case (copied from your 1st post)?

It seems it’s a variable that you are freely manipulating in your pretty 3D plots 

I would be surprised if the couch is allowed to block one of the egresses into the kitchen even with a peekaboo curtain 

Best,
Anand.

[Zitoun]

So is this case (copied from your 1st post)?
It seems it’s a variable that you are freely manipulating in your pretty 3D plots 

I meant it's a sectrionnal sofa, so you omve it as a block, and it's still on the rear wall, but a different one.

I would be surprised if the couch is allowed to block one of the egresses into the kitchen even with a peekaboo curtain 

That's a very good point, and it might be a fire hazard that could potenitaly block the passage to my son's bedroom from a firefighter perspective.
You just convinved me that this was not a good idea.

.... You think audio gear is complicated ... try acoustic right !   

[Zitoun]

It's your call, but I still like my suggestion of Amphion Argon 3S sitting on either side of the TV.  Other alternatives are the JBL 705P ($2000/pair) or 708P ($4000/pair) reference (professional) studio monitors also use controlled directivity and are active (built-in amps, one per driver).  I owned the 708P and they are some of the very best speakers money can buy.  Very dynamic, room filling, detailed, meant for mid-field listening, even have built-in DACs and room correction.  But they only accept AES/EBU digital or XLR analog inputs.  Either would pair well with the afore mentioned NAD C658 and would suggest putting them on either side of the TV.

Thanks for the suggestion, I looked at it, but quiet difficult to find a resseller in Vancouver. I'm  also afraid that I will end up not liking them because I don't neceseray like the 2 way speakers I listened to, even the 12 000 $ one. I always feel that instrument separation and micro details disapear, and bass definition is quiet realistic.... and boring.

My ultimate goal is also not to reproduce a studio like environment, as most of my best music experience were at concert in shows, Old Roman coliseum, inside boats or in old factories, so they were very odd, uncotrolled very echoey type of environments.
Still the fun was there.

What I like in multiple baffle speakers from a newbie perspective is the feeling of beeing there, stop listening to the gear and enjoy the music.

I guess at the end of the day it'sa compromise. I will continue my auditions and try to find these monitors though to have an experience of this.

I would try a diagonal setup.  In acoustically difficult or odd shaped rooms, this is often a VG way to go.

I will definitely forget about blocking access for security reasons, but your idea makes me think about a very simple solution as JLM mentionned, just move the speakers as you wish depending on what you are doing.

So I can keep my current layout add curtains, that I can double/triple and find nice one on the front to fit with the decoration.
Then I keep the speakers close to the wall when watching you tube or tv shows on netflix,










 and whenever I need to listen to music/movies seriously, close the curtains, and move them forward.





Simple, Economic, Realistic

With the measures I took I can also move slightly the sofa from the rear wall to have the 3 feet required.

That way I can also adress diffusion and absorption as required.

Make sense ?

[youngho]

I composed this reply, nearly deleted it, then decided to go ahead and post. I probably won't say anything further.

Look, I think you're going to have to reconsider your assumptions, priorities, and goals. Given that your listening preferences are "TV, Electronic music, Soul, Hip Hop," you should keep in mind that there is relatively little soundstage and imaging in the recording for the speakers to reproduce. I don't mean this to sound pejorative about that, but the overwhelming majority of content should be expected to have been recorded in a studio setting or manipulated on a computer, compared to chamber or orchestral classical music, a fair amount of jazz (especially unamplified live). When it comes to electronic music or hip hop, I don't know what "the feeling of being there" means, since there is no "there" there (sorry, Gertrude Stein), but it sounds like you're looking for a different approach than most so-called audiophiles, so it may not be surprising that you haven't been impressed with your visits to local shops. For studio recordings electronic, soul, and hip hop music to sound even a little like what you've heard in in colosseums or old factories, you're going to want a surround system with subwoofers, as well as DSP and up-mixing.

Not to be pedantic, but to criticize your simple, economic, realistic approach: speakers close to the wall will sound bass-heavy if not designed for that position (or in this case, the left will sound different than the right), curtains are not full-range absorption, pulling the out as you propose will have the TV off-center and the right speaker will still sound different than the left, sitting close to the wall will still have significant acoustic issues so you should still consider 4"+ of absorption behind the listening position. Think about four subwoofers in your room, similar to http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html

[Zitoun]

I composed this reply, nearly deleted it, then decided to go ahead and post. I probably won't say anything further.

Look, I think you're going to have to reconsider your assumptions, priorities, and goals. Given that your listening preferences are "TV, Electronic music, Soul, Hip Hop," you should keep in mind that there is relatively little soundstage and imaging in the recording for the speakers to reproduce. I don't mean this to sound pejorative about that, but the overwhelming majority of content should be expected to have been recorded in a studio setting or manipulated on a computer, compared to chamber or orchestral classical music, a fair amount of jazz (especially unamplified live). When it comes to electronic music or hip hop, I don't know what "the feeling of being there" means, since there is no "there" there (sorry, Gertrude Stein), but it sounds like you're looking for a different approach than most so-called audiophiles, so it may not be surprising that you haven't been impressed with your visits to local shops. For studio recordings electronic, soul, and hip hop music to sound even a little like what you've heard in in colosseums or old factories, you're going to want a surround system with subwoofers, as well as DSP and up-mixing.

Not to be pedantic, but to criticize your simple, economic, realistic approach: speakers close to the wall will sound bass-heavy if not designed for that position (or in this case, the left will sound different than the right), curtains are not full-range absorption, pulling the out as you propose will have the TV off-center and the right speaker will still sound different than the left, sitting close to the wall will still have significant acoustic issues so you should still consider 4"+ of absorption behind the listening position. Think about four subwoofers in your room, similar to http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html

No worries, I appreciate your feedback, that helps me a lot to figure out what will be my next step, and you are not pedantic at all, we have all different experience, and I appreciate learning from yours.

An example worth a thousand word, so tell me if there are no soundstage, Imaging in these songs. I feel they have soundstage when I listen to a good pair of headphones and amp:  (sorry for the YT links I am sure you can find it on Tidal)

- electro music > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD3vr7_Al88
On my headphones (and on 10-40k stereo systems) it sounds like it has been recorded in a church, not with my current speaker system .

- if this first one is too rough to listen too, this one is not too bad but recorded live https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiPu-qYBTZU  (normaly you should have an idea of the soudstage I am trying to get)

I am not a producer, but I think now they can simulate any type of environment in the recording (even non classical type).

- Hip Hop > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJCHeEQV454
I believe it's studio recorded and instruments are real instruments, saying that I am not sure it makes a big difference.

I listen also to piano, pop, R&B, trip-hop, jazz, Gnawa, raggae, ska etc... I am not limiting myself to certain type of recording or genre, because I feel sometime that good music in a crappy mp3 is way better than something uninteresting in high definition, it does not mean that I am not interested top get it in HIFI, I just allow myself to listen to more, and more often.

If you think these type of music does not fit with audiophile type of gears, then you are right I will stop looking for it.

On Subwoofer, yes that's a good observation, I like the JL Audio I auditioned, and I just finished reading the thread on mono/stereo subs, that will be a good investment for me, but I will love  first a richer enveloping sound.

Thanks

[Early B.]

This room has so many issues that attempting to get marginally decent sound from it should not be a goal. Keep your expectations and budget on the low side.

[JLM]

Is the TV location "sacred"?  Have you considered moving it out into the room diagonally opposite the corner of the couch with speakers flanking it?  That would nicely (not perfectly) center the sound across the entire couch for whole family enjoyment.  And it would preserve French door access and some of the view and leave all the openings untouched.  That portion of the room is empty space anyway.  This scheme would be workable with a wide array of speakers but would give the room a very TV/audio focus.  And the wall where the TV currently is located could "anchor" another chair to view the fireplace, which is pretty much neglected in the current layout. 

Selecting speakers is a very personal decision.  But seems like your opinions regarding sound are quite confused (churches for instance have extremely long reverb times and headphones greatly exaggerate soundstage).  Suggest further educating yourself on musical/audio attributes before spending money and wearing out your wife's patience.  As your room is marginal at best recommend as Early B. suggests, keeping expectations (and budget) low.  As youngho mentioned, sitting so close to walls is not ideal but you could add decorative wall treatments later (see GIK circle for attractive/effective options).  A nice pair of monitors, Fs = 40 Hz, should be an ideal solution. 

[Letitroll98]

You haven't commented much on the diagonal suggestion, which for me is the only solution here.  Put both the TV and the speakers in the corner of the far wall, next to the fireplace.  The sectional will not be against any wall or block any egress, but rather float in the room opposite from the corner with the TV in front of both the French doors and dining room access with a couple feet between.  In all of the other configs you can't sit in all locations on the couch and watch TV or listen to music, and nowhere on the couch can anyone see the fireplace.  In the diagonal you can sit almost anywhere on the sectional and do all three.  And it's the only config that the room looks balanced from a design perspective, everything else is lopsided.  Lastly, your best acoustics will come from the diagonal placement of the speakers, no hard early reflections.

[sunnydaze]

You haven't commented much on the diagonal suggestion, which for me is the only solution here.  Put both the TV and the speakers in the corner of the far wall, next to the fireplace.  The sectional will not be against any wall or block any egress, but rather float in the room opposite from the corner with the TV in front of both the French doors and dining room access with a couple feet between.  In all of the other configs you can't sit in all locations on the couch and watch TV or listen to music, and nowhere on the couch can anyone see the fireplace.  In the diagonal you can sit almost anywhere on the sectional and do all three.  And it's the only config that the room looks balanced from a design perspective, everything else is lopsided.  Lastly, your best acoustics will come from the diagonal placement of the speakers, no hard early reflections.

Bingo!   You nailed perfectly what I said, but in much more articulate manner.   

Everything just seems more "balanced" and functional with this setup: viewing TV, listening to stereo, enjoying the fireplace, and optically from a visual /design perspective.  You don't get all this with any other setup, and my experience and instincts say it's likely to yield the best SQ.