AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The HiRez Music Circle => Topic started by: ted_b on 19 Apr 2011, 03:03 pm
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I'd like to use this thread as a kind of repository of new DAC announcements/discussions. If the discussion becomes too detailed, we can always start a new thread specific to the piece. And i'll add to the list as folks remind me or discover new ones (thanks Mark on the Pandora, and our fearless leader JohnR for catching the extra digit typo in the NuForce price...oops).
** A new ESS SAbre DAC from a new company founded with ex- ESS Sabre executive.
http://resonessencelabs.com/
$3995, with release in MAy. Looks interesting, with a very measurements-based user manual online. Implies that all sources are upconverted to 24/192 but can't figure it out, as it also has sample rate lights.
** NuForce announces their DAC-9 at $1695.
http://www.nuforce.com/hi/products/Dac-HPAmp/dac9/index.php
More info on their Circle here,
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91621.0
but this is unique in that it spends lots of resources on the output side (good idea), claiming better filtering, etc. Could give the below $2k category a real run.
** AMR introduces their NOS/32 bit selectable-chip DAC (DP-77, $4995)
Press Release: Abbingdon Music Research's new DP-77 [$4.995] with its Gemini Digital Engine allows selection between a 16-bit non-oversampling chip and a 32-bit chip for a 'best of both worlds' approach between legacy Redbook CD and PC-audio high-resolution files. The 24/192 USB input is asynchronous and there are minimum-phase apodizing reconstruction filters to minimize pre-ringing. The DAC's 'global master timing' clock is adaptive to avoid stepped matching to incoming sampling frequencies. Instead it scans continuously between 28.000.000 discrete frequencies to mirror the incoming data rate perfectly. Four of the nine digital inputs work through a tube buffer and in preamp mode the DP-77 offers 71-step analog volume control with a resistor array.
I'm VERY interested in this thing. NOS for redbook, and yet Hirez for the remainder....? Very nice idea on paper. Seems to have a lot of technology and faetures for $5k, and the AMR sound is well received/reviewed. Gonna call my AMR dealer asap. :)
** new Grace m903 headphone amp/DAC/preamp
http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m903/m903.htm
MSRp around $1800; looks to compete with the likes of Burson. Has been talked about a bit already over at Headfi.
** Hi-end manufacturer Aesthetix introduces card-based Pandora tube hybrid DAC ($5k), and Romulus DAC/player.
http://www.aesthetix.net/introducing.php
With Aesthetix reputation for great sonics and great build quality in their preamps and amps, along with a world-reknown phone pre, it's nice to see them come out with a couple digital pieces. Uses Gordon's aysnch USB drivers, too.
** new Calif-based Core Audio Technology releases 2 NOS DACs, with hirez one in pipeline
Press release:Core Audio has two DAC levels we are releasing now and one in the works. One at $1500 and one at $3000. The Core Audio DAC is built around the AD1865NOS Chip using all high-end parts. The Entry-level DAC boasts 8 stages of regulation into 16 discrete power supplies driven with over 40kuF of top-end Nichicon Gold-Tune capacitance. Caddock top-end TF020 resistors are used throughout as well has Sanyo Oscon ultra-low ESR 1500uF SMDs on the board. Not a single part is "generic". To round it off we use V-Cap OIMP output caps. The top-end model takes this to the extreme. We upgrade to Mundorf electrolytics for over 100kuF of capacitance, V-Cap TFTF ($1200 retail upgrade on its own), and various other upgraded parts throughout. Soon we will be releasing a version that is optimized for Jensen 33kuF 4-pole capacitors in the power supply and DC coupling the output for even more MUSIC.
We are also working on a discrete 24bit R2R style DAC (no DAC chip) with 96 laser-matched .01% resistors for high-resolution playback. It contains roughly 55 separate power supplies and a 48 channel bit-matched attenuator that is microcontrolled to match the voltage perfectly. This not only allows us to move the controller to the output, but creates a truly digital amplifier with only one stage of conversion and a bit-perfect, line level output right before the speakers. No separate amplifier and a truly high-resolution NOS DAC. Just below alien technology.
Ryan Mintz
Core Audio Technology
216.392.0048
Ryan has made nice inroads with power supplies for the Mac Mini and Metric Halo DACS, and his new venture is going after the NOS and hirez DAC market. Alien technology? Klaatu barada nikto!!
** Electrocompaniet returns, and with a DAC or two.
http://www.electrocompaniet.com/products/prelude/PD-1.html
I heard the PD-1 at CES and was underwhelmed, but be that as it may. It has 24/192 SPDIF but USB seems an after thought at 16/48 asynch, and I told Electromcompaniet. They were initially playing pop music DVD's through it as DAC for their 2 channel HT but we got them to do some serious stuff.
** Anedio is a new company with another ESS Sabre DAC, the $1270 D1
http://www.anedio.com/index.php/product/d1_overview
I have several emails (4+) into this company since December, but not one returned yet. The under-$1500 DAC market is a huge one and I assumed they'd be a player with what's on paper so far. Let's hope they get reviewed soon. I would have loved to eval this DAC, but I give up. Let us know if anyone hears one.
** Jeff Rowland joins the list of hi-end audio names returning via a DAC announcement. The Aeris ($9800)!
http://jeffrowland.com/websitepublisher/aeris-dac-overview_gallery.html?
Built to incredible NASA-grade specs, this DAC still only does 24/96 via USB (not sure if aysnch or not) but 24/192 direct (S/DIF, etc). Phil states early reviews are over the top, and the ones on the CA site are certainly that (pre-release demo sessions at CES, etc). They should be for $10k, but we've all heard $10k mediocrity too, so for those with a very large digital budget, this is one to surely demo. 8)
** Light Harmonic has a new 32/384K DAC called the DaVinci ($10K)
http://www.lightharmonic.com/index.php/products
I first saw this DAC advertised at AXPONA. I have an issue with it's banner that claims "world's first 384k USB DAC" as "I already got one" (use Monty Python french guard voice from Holy Grail) with the M2Tech Young, as well as other production offerings like Antelope Gold, MSB Tech and Playback Designs (prototype, see below). So...that leads me to an uneasy first impression, but maybe there is something "world first" about it that they can explain. Or maybe the marketing dept is stretching some things (naw!!).
** Playback Designs MPD-3 DAC capable of DSD and 24/384k playback via USB, for less money ($5k)than their MPS-5. There is also a player (MPS-3).
http://www.playbackdesigns.com/mpd3.html
Now...this may well be the world's first DSD USB DAC (also capable of DXD levels of performance at 24/384k and below). I spent some time with these guys. Jonathan Tinn chatted with me at THE Show in Vegas in January and plans to have this DAC out by the end of this month. Also, the very high level USB capability will be a retrofit upgrade for their Series 5 customers. What I heard at THE Show was sublime, and that with 24/352k (DXD) stuff.
** REGA releases the REGA -DAC, a $995 traditional DAC that carries the REGA quality and sound at a reasonable price
http://www.rega.co.uk/html/DAC.htm
I am disappointed that it's USB is a simple 16/48 maximum, which means spending more $$ for a computer converter (USB to S/PDIF) but Sam Tellig and others have said it's S/PDIF sounds very good. It will have to compete with the, frankly, tremendous sounding EE DAC at $750 which also allows tube rolling or solid state output. Competition is good!!
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Here's another that has peaked my interest - still very little info available (short threads on CA).
Aesthetix Pandora http://www.aesthetix.net/introducing.php (http://www.aesthetix.net/introducing.php)
Great thread Ted!
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The Nuforce looks pretty nifty :thumb:
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Here's another that has peaked my interest - still very little info available (short threads on CA).
Aesthetix Pandora http://www.aesthetix.net/introducing.php (http://www.aesthetix.net/introducing.php)
Great thread Ted!
Mark , yeah forgot about that one. Great brand, tube hybrid, nice specs. Will add to top post. Thanks.
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Mark , yeah forgot about that one. Great brand, tube hybrid, nice specs. Will add to top post. Thanks.
Nice weight on this one.....
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Virtue Audio has a DAC in the works also...
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The AMR DAC looks like it has lots of things I like!!! :o
Randy
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I've been trying to find info on the new Classe CP-800.
Although mainly a preamp, it also has a ton of digital inputs and asynch USB to feed its internal DAC.
It also has subwoofer outs, some manner of parametric EQ, and looks cool.
I think it lists for $5K or $5.5K
-Mike
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There was this story too - http://www.avguide.com/article/electrocompaniet-announces-usb-dac-ces-2011
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I don't have much to offer except to say that EMM makes at least one SOTA DAC that I've heard at some length. Two friends have or have had one and I'm going to 'timztunes' house soon to get treated to a third.
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Good site for what's new in the digital audio world:
http://www.digitalaudioblog.com/
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I don't have much to offer except to say that EMM makes at least one SOTA DAC that I've heard at some length. Two friends have or have had one and I'm going to 'timztunes' house soon to get treated to a third.
EMM DACs are well-known and been out for many years. I've heard most of them (three stacked for Ray Kimber's Isotek multichannel demos at RMAF and CES were amazing; those guys got to know me :) ) and they are killer, sonically and on the wallet. :)
HOWEVER, This thread is about DACs that have been recently announced in 2011. I have not enough time, space (or interest) to list all the DACs that currently are in production. :o
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Here is one that I have been looking into by a company right here in New Jersey. :thumb:
http://www.anedio.com/index.php/product/d1_overview
Chris
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Here is one that I have been looking into by a company right here in New Jersey. :thumb:
http://www.anedio.com/index.php/product/d1_overview
Chris
I'd like to try the d1 with my Duet.
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How about this one?
http://jeffrowland.com/websitepublisher/aeris-dac-overview_gallery.html?PHPSESSID=30b9d16966c45376f22f8ecc3381512c
One beta tester reported that it provided an OMG experience.
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I'd like to try the d1 with my Duet.
I'm sure it would sound good :D.
I hope to have mine by the end of next week.
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** Anedio is a new company with another ESS Sabre DAC, the $1270 D1
http://www.anedio.com/index.php/product/d1_overview
I have several emails (4+) into this company since December, but not one returned yet. The under-$1500 DAC market is a huge one and I assumed they'd be a player with what's on paper so far. Let's hope they get reviewed soon. I would have loved to eval this DAC, but I give up. Let us know if anyone hears one.
Ted,
I've written them and get responses in about 2-3 days. I usually forget what I was asking by then, but James does respond. (Probably a Jersey ting! Ya know what I mean!)
There are a couple of reviews on the sight, 2 are semi pro-reviews and one owner review that reads more like a pro.
30 day MBG!
I'll report what I hear in a few weeks.
Chris
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M2Tech Vaughn?
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M2Tech Vaughn?
I have the Young in demo (although it's in Italy right now being updated/repaired) but Marco says the Vaughn is still in development. No press release yet, and frankly, since the Young experiences, I would like to see M2Tech put a lot more time into alpha testing to iron out issues, rather than hope the Vaughn gets released early. I mean, Marco and company have been responsive but the feel is one of field beta testing.
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The DaVinci DAC by Light Harmonic - http://www.lightharmonic.com/index.php/products (http://www.lightharmonic.com/index.php/products)
Asynchronous USB up to 384K and looks like Darth Vader created it. Looks interesting.
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Don't forget about Andreas' DAC, the Playback Designs MDS-3
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Oops, good point Bruce. Thanks. It sounded great at THE Show.
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The new Rega DAC and the Musiciical Fidelity M1-DAC both under $1000 look very interesting. Don't forget the E-Mu line real sleepers. Priced right as well.
charles
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+1 for the Rega DAC, a heavy hitter in it's price range.
Or did it technically come out last year, December in Britain?
Edit: nah, it only came out this year in the rest of the world, it should be on the list.
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Anything new coming for us poor folks!!!!!! I saw a HLLY on ebay with a remote and 5.1 decoding for $200.......I could swing $200ish maybe 3, anyway if anyone hears of a good new inexpensive one please let me know somehow...TY
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Not sure if it is just a + stripped of some functionality or if the analog output stage, etc differ is some ways, but the non-gold, non-plus Antelope is coming soon...
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Rumor has it that RWA has something brewing, too :wink:
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+1 for the Rega DAC, a heavy hitter in it's price range.
Or did it technically come out last year, December in Britain?
Edit: nah, it only came out this year in the rest of the world, it should be on the list.
I added it, but would like to know why folks call it a heavy hitter. If for great Rega quality and sound, then please report back your findings, by all means yes. But for specs, no. For one, the USB is somewhat useless for computer audio (cheap synchronous 16/48 max) so owners will need to spend addtl $$ for a USB-to-SPDIF interface if one wants hirez from computer. So, the highly advertised 24/192 is only really available via digital inputs (from, say, a DVD-Audio player or hirez computer sound card add-on). At $250 less one can do the same with an EE DAC and have either ss or tube rolling output to boot. My $.02
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Rumor has it that RWA has something brewing, too :wink:
TALK TO ME!! :)
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Not sure if it is just a + stripped of some functionality or if the analog output stage, etc differ is some ways, but the non-gold, non-plus Antelope is coming soon...
Antelope has been pushing out the date for awhile. I have the Plus here, and a Voltikus just arrived on my doorstep today. Go figure! :)
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Well, you know I am looking forward to your impressions. As a fellow Weiss DAC2/Minerva owner, I am keeping my eye on how the many DACs you try out compare to the Weiss, and I will certainly sit up and pay attention to whatever you may replace it with...
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Anything new coming for us poor folks!!!!!! I saw a HLLY on ebay with a remote and 5.1 decoding for $200.......I could swing $200ish maybe 3, anyway if anyone hears of a good new inexpensive one please let me know somehow...TY
I am currently demoing the Hegel HD2 -- retails for $350.
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I am currently demoing the Hegel HD2 -- retails for $350.
Let us know if your liking it or not when you get a chance...got a link to a website??
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Let us know if your liking it or not when you get a chance...got a link to a website??
http://www.hegel.com/hd2.htm
So far so good. I prefer it to my HRT II+ which I have had for about 5 months now and thought was quite good. By the way, I am selling my HRT II+ on Audiogon right now. Love to sell it to an AC'er.
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And from the Hegel webpage, a link to a translation of a DAC shootout from a Scandanavian mag, complete with jitter measurements. DAC geeks should note that the top two rated USB DACs were not async USB implementation.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://www.lydogbilde.no/test/hegel-hd2&act=url
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http://www.hegel.com/hd2.htm
So far so good. I prefer it to my HRT II+ which I have had for about 5 months now and thought was quite good. By the way, I am selling my HRT II+ on Audiogon right now. Love to sell it to an AC'er.
Looks like a Hegel is in your future??
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I'm waiting for Dan Wright to weigh in. We need his 6SN7 output stage on a top notch DAC.
PS Great thread.
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Rumor has it that RWA has something brewing, too :wink:
Vinnie - you're such a tease!
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I added it, but would like to know why folks call it a heavy hitter. If for great Rega quality and sound, then please report back your findings, by all means yes.
Yes heavy hitter based on sound quality (for it's price) not it's feature set or components. I'm giving one a go right now. Maybe Im biased towards the Wolfson DAC chip sound, or maybe they have managed to bake a reasonably tasty pie with deceivingly simple set of ingredients.
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Looks like a Hegel is in your future??
Actually, it is in my present. I seem to be allergic to spending more than $400 bucks on a DAC these days.
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I'm waiting for Dan Wright to weigh in. We need his 6SN7 output stage on a top notch DAC.
PS Great thread.
Seconded. SS never gets high violins right.
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The sensitivity of the word “First” can surely stirs up a debate.
In Light Harmonic, our focus has always been on R&D; working to develop the best quality product(s) and present that to our community. The design and engineering works for our 384K DaVinci DAC was started in early 2009; with continuous testing and development, Da Vinci debuted to several key industrial people in 2010 May. Then leading to the public debut of Da Vinci – 384K USB DAC at Axpona 2011, Atlanta.
Being a start-up company that made up of only engineers, the focus for Light Harmonic Design Team is to bring the best sounding 384K USB DAC to the Audiophile community. With all the anxieties, excitements, anticipations of our “First” product, during the show, we were made aware by some kind folks regarding two other products also claim can do 384K in the market.
We humbly acknowledge that, however after some detail research, we found both of them required installation of customize driver; this mean that these are NOT USB 2.0 audio class standard compatible. From our research, we also found out that one of the DAC mention, uses only 192K-capable DAC chips which we doubt the bit perfect transferring path from USB to that DAC chip.
Anyways, we sincerely hope that it is the sound quality from DaVinci that one can associate us with; this quality of music that have captured many souls and given many, the best sounding experiences one ever had.
Here is what we saw from our product’s audience writing feedback….
“Offered Up Some Of The Sweetest-Sounding, Natural Violin Sound And The Most
Solid Stereo imaging I Have Experience From A Classical Recording”
“Emotional, Musical, Out of Words….. Phenomenal”
“Extremely Detailed, Open and Smooth”
“Great – Can Hear All The Different Layers. Clarity & Coherence, Great Sound Stage - Sound Like Analog”
“I Was Closing My Eyes, Imagining I Was At A Supper Club With the Orchestra And Musicians Right In Front Of Me. Beautiful”
We are indeed humbled by many more of these great comments/reviews from those that visited us during the show. The response from the show is beyond what a first-time show exhibitor can ever imagine.
Bringing you these experiences are what we at Light Harmonic is focus on and will continue to do so in our current and all future products.
Thank you again for all your support, criticism and we continue to welcome any feedback anyone could offer.
Please visit our website http://www.LightHarmonic.com for more details
Come Register with us in My hifi Space and come join our facebook fan club!
Your comments and feedback is what will make us better.
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I was able to hear the Light Harmonic DaVinci at Axpona-- in fact I sat on the floor next to John Atkinson in the listening chair.
The sound was indeed truly outstanding; especially on the 384k tracks--to me the timber was spot on. Very impressive. Of course it also comes at a fairly hefty price tag, but again to my humble ears the sound was outstanding. Certainly a worthy contender for those that can afford it!
Randy
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lightharmonic-
Congrats on a sucessful show.
How about some specs on your website and a picture of the remote?
Does it have a volume control for direct connection to amps?
What's the purpose of the internal gears shown in the pictures?
Where does one find 384/32 files?
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Where does one find 384/32 files?
Yeah..... I'd like to know that one as well....
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LightHarmonic, welcome to AC. I'm glad to see you enter the DAC arena.
However, I need you to move your DAC-specific marketing and education posts to the Industry Circles, as per Audio Circles guidelines. You can start your own thread about your DAC and its user feedback, etc there. Also, as a manufacturer, please read and abide by the manufacturer posting guidelines (signature with Company name, etc).
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42858.0
I will not currently move these posts as they will confuse the flow of this thread.
Just to set the record straight on my "first" comments. One, the company, in their "worlds first 384K USB DAC' made no mention of driverless or Class 2.0 Audio in that terse marketing byline. Second, of the multiple 384K DACs I've had in my home, at least one of them was truly Class 2.0 audio compatible (ran Voyage MPD Linux even, as Class 2.0 is a requirement) and was driverless. FYI, there are at least five products I know that do 384k. I'm sure LightHarmonic will be a great addition to that group.
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Hopefully not off topic (please feel free to move if it is), but is there a "standard" input
jack and cable for an I2S direct input to an external dac unit?
Cheers!
Vinnie
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Hopefully not off topic (please feel free to move if it is), but is there a "standard" input
jack and cable for an I2S direct input to an external dac unit?
Cheers!
Vinnie
You thinking of doing an I2S DAC? Vinnie, there are multitudes of ideas there, some use HDMI (not standard HDMI of course, but use the connector, very confusing), some use ethernet RJ-45 (harkens back to the Audio Alchemy days) and some I've seen use a 3 pin XLR style. And others poo-poo I2S saying it was only intended for internal nanometer-or-millimeter length connections.
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Hi Ted,
I can't spill the beans yet, but I will say that a new version of the the Isabellina dac will not only include the same 16-bit, NOS chip and discrete Class A output stage, but there will also be a high res chip on board as well. The user can select between the two with the push of a button. And both will still feed the Class-A, LiFePO4 battery powered tube stage (LFP-V tube stage). And yes, both dac chips take I2S and there will be provisions on board to feed I2S directly in (actually - it gets galvanically isolated - don't want to dirty the pure battery supply - before it feeds the dac chips).
Oh wait - this is kind of spilling the beans a little :oops: :wink:
More info to follow soon...
Thanks for your response to the I2S topic. In theory, a really high-end, async USB to I2S board can be installed (I know there are quite a few out there) and the I2S can be hard-wired in with a very short length of wire. Or if ones has a transport that outputs I2S, I can look into having it feed directly with a mating jack that the transport uses. But yes, I would be concerned about cable length using I2S. Proper implementation would make or break it - and 'scoping the I2S lines will determine this... along with using the best test equipment we all have - our EARS!
Vinnie
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I'm looking forward to check this one:
http://www.usbdac.com.au/index.php/dac-news/item/103-onkyo-dac-1000-32bit/192khz-usb-dac (http://www.usbdac.com.au/index.php/dac-news/item/103-onkyo-dac-1000-32bit/192khz-usb-dac)
http://www.digitalaudioblog.com/2011/04/onkyo-dac-1000-32192-usb-dac.html (http://www.digitalaudioblog.com/2011/04/onkyo-dac-1000-32192-usb-dac.html)
A reasonably priced async DAC that goes 32/192kHz via USB. What's not to like. Will surely raise the bar for all those still trying to sell synchronous USB 16/48kHz DACs @ $2000.
Nap. :thumb:
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For those interested, the Resonessence Invicta DAC is now reviewed by 6moons with conclusions: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/resonessence/1.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/resonessence/1.html)
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I am just listening to the new Weiss Medea plus, it is extraordinay.
Better than the 202 which was my reference, the resolution on the Medea is unparalleled .
Keith.
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This should also be posted in CHEAP AND CHEARFUL!!
A $449 24/192 asynch USB DAC from Schitt! Their inexpensive tubed headphone amp is winning all kinds of praise (I heard it at RMAF and it was very good), so they know good analog stages. Nice!
http://schiit.com/news/63011-schiit-announces-bifrost-dac/
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Yep Ted,
I saw that too. And not to mention the provision for upgrade boards for both the DAC and USB, when advances warrant it. An underappreciated feature of the W4S DACs, and something I have never seen in a DAC of this price.
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This is awesome!!!! I'll post in C & C...Thanks Ted!!!!!
Ed
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This should also be posted in CHEAP AND CHEARFUL!!
A $449 24/192 asynch USB DAC from Schitt! Their inexpensive tubed headphone amp is winning all kinds of praise (I heard it at RMAF and it was very good), so they know good analog stages. Nice!
http://schiit.com/news/63011-schiit-announces-bifrost-dac/
From a former Sumo designer and the other was the Theta designer, Mike Moffet. Expect great things from this company. They also have two other Dacs in the works.
Does anyone here know if Apple's Thunderbolt technology will upset the apple cart of all the present Dacs?
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http://www.iclarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=15819
Apple claims that Thunderbolt is 20 times faster than firewire or USB 2.0.
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http://www.iclarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=15819 (http://www.iclarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=15819)
Apple claims that Thunderbolt is 20 times faster than firewire or USB 2.0.
Or twice the speed of USB 3.0.
That's great for hard drive data transfer speeds, but I think existing USB 2.0 or FireWire has plenty of bandwith for digital audio transfer.
Steve
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From a former Sumo designer and the other was the Theta designer, Mike Moffet. Expect great things from this company. They also have two other Dacs in the works.
Does anyone here know if Apple's Thunderbolt technology will upset the apple cart of all the present Dacs?
Sadly, Firewire, USB and Thunderbolt was never designed for Audiophile performance, it's not even an afterthought. It's amazing to me that folks attempt USB and FW as a streaming source for Audio with the success it's had. As a EE, it's rather entertaining for me to see folks get very heated about this even after you point out the 20 step process you have to take to configure it. It's almost entirely the Software that is the downfall of a USB DAC. Even my colleges get heated on this topic. A Thunderbolt DAC would be interesting, you would essentially transfer the entire song in a fraction of a second making it more like a dedicated player vs a USB DAC.
Napalm, you really need to get off the whole bashing that 2k DAC, they never said the USB port on that DAC was a good one. There's very few USB DACs that I would call worthy and would rather use a computer with a dedicated sound card with a coax output over USB DAC.
What's a bit alarming is that i've noticed several companies market "asynchronous" USB DACs when in-fact they are adaptive since they upsample a 44.1k source to 192kHz or 384khz vs oversampling to 176.4, etc. But perhaps that is what gets them out of the red.
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Sadly, Firewire, USB and Thunderbolt was never designed for Audiophile performance, it's not even an afterthought.
I was under the impression that Firewire had some realtime latency spec in it (perhaps for video). Wrong?
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I was under the impression that Firewire had some realtime latency spec in it (perhaps for video). Wrong?
It's still considered acceptable to drop a frame in FW, so that's still not audiophile quality.
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It's still considered acceptable to drop a frame in FW, so that's still not audiophile quality.
Ah. Didn't know that, thank you.
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https://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home/hiface-dac
The JKDAC has the following characteristics:
It's a modified I2S Hiface capable of 24/192
integrated with a 24/192 Sabre ES9022 DAC
operates exclusively from 2 internal LiFePo4 (Lithium Nano Phosphate) batteries
completely portable - will run for >8 hours from fully charged batteries
Only USB input - standard USB type B input socket
Only RCA analogue outs
Outputs at 2V line level for driving preamplifier or amplifier
RCA outputs will happily also drive most headphones
external battery charger plugs into box
aluminium enclosure (Size in mm L:120 W:78 H:43)
Price €500
A steal if it is any good
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Yeh, thinking about getting the non-dac mk3 - small thing, but note that hiface won't allow integer mode, if using Audirvana.
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Guys, you forgot to mention the upcoming Burson Dac...i think it will be priced for less than 1k. (not sure)
I only found a spanish link though.
http://www.hifilive.es/2011/06/10/burson-audio-da-160/
(google translate helps :green:)
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Guys, you forgot to mention the upcoming Burson Dac...i think it will be priced for less than 1k. (not sure)
I only found a spanish link though.
http://www.hifilive.es/2011/06/10/burson-audio-da-160/
(google translate helps :green:)
Srajan has reviewed its DAC/preamp brother (Same DAC, etc) and given it a Blue Moon award in the past 18 months. And he has already previewed and explained the differences here.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/burson6/1.html
It just didn;t seem "new news" enough for me, sorry. Great value DAC.
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It's still considered acceptable to drop a frame in FW, so that's still not audiophile quality.
I'm not aware of any comparable real time streaming protocols that can fully compensate for a lost block or frame.
Using SPDIF, a DAC on losing a block does not ask the CD transport to re-transmit. If a frame is lost in HDMI, your television does not ask the cable box to send again.
I'm wondering which protocols and transport mechanisms meet audiophile standards.
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I'm not aware of any comparable real time streaming protocols that can fully compensate for a lost block or frame.
Using SPDIF, a DAC on losing a block does not ask the CD transport to re-transmit. If a frame is lost in HDMI, your television does not ask the cable box to send again.
I'm wondering which protocols and transport mechanisms meet audiophile standards.
I2S would be ideal. SPDIF packet size is 48 bytes, but any clock locking issues you would lose a bit since it is serial, the debate would be is losing a bit more noticeable than jitter... USB audio, which has a packet size of 192 bytes (1ms worth of music) is a sizable amount if lost. USB DACs still need to convert the USB packet to SPDIF/I2S packets. HDMI carries up to 28 bytes per channel (56 bytes per 2 channel source), there's encryption and byte-encodings on this data with a small amount of error correction, so if you did lose a frame/packet, etc, 56 bytes would be lost. Video might actually recover since the frames are repeated for a 24p source (5 times for 120hz TVs). HDMI will still have to recover the audio clock and ship the data either I2S or SPDIF to the dac.
In the end, if you can take a known good file that contains the lossless pcm data, feed that to a soundcard that has a built in dac, and you just sidestepped a lot of unnecessary protocols to playback audio. Even if the soundcard feeds it to another chip via I2S or SPDIF, it's still a minimalistic solution.
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You can overanalyze the technical aspects of transport and DAC connection protocols to death. The fact is that I have heard great sounding audio from a variety of digital playback systems with transport and DAC connected via S/PDIF, USB and FireWire. They all met my audiophile standards. In most cases, the big difference was the DAC itself.
Steve
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The final price on the Burson DA-160 will be $850, is scheduled to be out this month.
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Unless John Delmo made a mistake communicating with me, it'll actually be $950 and not available before the end of this months at the soonest. They're revisiting something in the circuit (presumably the USB interface to perhaps become async and 192 - but that's just a guess) and release will be delayed until this whatever has been added/changed/improved to their satisfaction. :duh:
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I2S would be ideal. SPDIF packet size is 48 bytes, but any clock locking issues you would lose a bit since it is serial, the debate would be is losing a bit more noticeable than jitter... USB audio, which has a packet size of 192 bytes (1ms worth of music) is a sizable amount if lost. USB DACs still need to convert the USB packet to SPDIF/I2S packets.
Wouldn't losing 1ms of data result in a noticeable drop out? I don't notice any noticeable drop outs with my USB DAC, perhaps the position that Firewire (and I assume USB) are not audiophile grade is based on a theoretical finding rather than a real world one. Or are frames really dropping all the time and we're just not noticing?
There are a handful of DACs which support external I2S, and then usually the source is some other vendor proprietary device. I2S would be ideal, but the ecosystem does not seem to exist. Given the lack of ecosystem, I'm wondering if there is some technical reason that few have ventured down this path.
In the end, if you can take a known good file that contains the lossless pcm data, feed that to a soundcard that has a built in dac, and you just sidestepped a lot of unnecessary protocols to playback audio. Even if the soundcard feeds it to another chip via I2S or SPDIF, it's still a minimalistic solution.
The minimalist solution seems to be sound card to analog output to your preamp. Is there a sound card that you would use that has an audiophile grade analog output stage? If the suggestion is sound card to SPDIF, is async USB and firewire (firewire is already async) to the DAC, which then converts to I2S is a better solution than the implications of clock recovery that's required for SPDIF?
Anyway, I'm sort of with SRB. Given the lack of perfection in the broadly adopted protocols, perhaps the whole necessity is the mother of invention thing has yielded some pretty good (albeit imperfect) inventions.
I'm sure the IBM Token Ring guys thought Metcalfe's Ethernet was pretty absurd with its complex collision resolution scheme. But they found a way to make Ethernet perform and it has stood the test of time.
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Unless John Delmo made a mistake communicating with me, it'll actually be $950 and not available before the end of this months at the soonest. They're revisiting something in the circuit (presumably the USB interface to perhaps become async and 192 - but that's just a guess)
I will wait for the reviews and see how everything goes. Maybe you can make a comparison between Dacs on the same price range on the market? it would be interesting. 8)
BTw, thanks for the link Ted. :thumb:
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Wouldn't losing 1ms of data result in a noticeable drop out? I don't notice any noticeable drop outs with my USB DAC, perhaps the position that Firewire (and I assume USB) are not audiophile grade is based on a theoretical finding rather than a real world one. Or are frames really dropping all the time and we're just not noticing?
There are a handful of DACs which support external I2S, and then usually the source is some other vendor proprietary device. I2S would be ideal, but the ecosystem does not seem to exist. Given the lack of ecosystem, I'm wondering if there is some technical reason that few have ventured down this path.
The minimalist solution seems to be sound card to analog output to your preamp. Is there a sound card that you would use that has an audiophile grade analog output stage? If the suggestion is sound card to SPDIF, is async USB and firewire (firewire is already async) to the DAC, which then converts to I2S is a better solution than the implications of clock recovery that's required for SPDIF?
Anyway, I'm sort of with SRB. Given the lack of perfection in the broadly adopted protocols, perhaps the whole necessity is the mother of invention thing has yielded some pretty good (albeit imperfect) inventions.
I'm sure the IBM Token Ring guys thought Metcalfe's Ethernet was pretty absurd with its complex collision resolution scheme. But they found a way to make Ethernet perform and it has stood the test of time.
FW and USB audio was never designed for audiophile, it's amazing to see the "real world" success with it. Definitely use your ears, if you feel it sounds great that's all what matters.
It's expected that Video will lose a frame from time to time, the source and the sink clocks are never locked, but as stated most video formats repeat the frame 2,3 or 5 times, some will do it even 10 times, so it's less of an issue on newer TVs, but it's probably hardly noticeable on older TVs. A 3:2 pull-down/up is a great example of a missing frame and you can see tearing on a landscape pan and most folks don't even notice that.
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If SPDIF was designed for audiophiles, wouldn't they have attempted to eliminate jitter? By contrast, both asynchronous USB audio and FireWire were designed explicitly to eliminate jitter as much as possible. So let me say then that they were indeed designed for audiophiles.
The only argument I've heard is that USB and FireWire streaming audio frames are too large and a lost frame is a problem -- except there does not appear to be much evidence that this happens in practice. Perhaps I'm all wet here, would love to understand the dropped frames problem with audio a bit more carefully. Totally understand that HDMI video drops frames (I've seen it) but I haven't personally had audio drop out from USB from a computer that was running well.
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In the end, if you can take a known good file that contains the lossless pcm data, feed that to a soundcard that has a built in dac, and you just sidestepped a lot of unnecessary protocols to playback audio.
And make sure you're also using this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_operating_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_operating_system)
otherwise it's an exercise in futility if the OS is not guaranteed to always feed the soundcard when required.
Nap.
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I'm very interested in the TEAC UD-H01 USB DAC. Accepts up to 192kHz, headphone output, priced around $500US.
It's been tough to find much information about this unit outside of "Hey, check out this new DAC from TEAC" announcements. It seems it will be put on sale this month, but I don't know if it'll make it to the US. I'm ready to make the leap to 192kHz, and the Shiit Bifrost and TEAC are high on my list.
Full info here: http://www.digitalaudioblog.com/2011/06/teac-ud-h01-usb-dac.html (http://www.digitalaudioblog.com/2011/06/teac-ud-h01-usb-dac.html)
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Full info here: http://www.digitalaudioblog.com/2011/06/teac-ud-h01-usb-dac.html (http://www.digitalaudioblog.com/2011/06/teac-ud-h01-usb-dac.html)
Funny. I clicked on the link without noticing that you mentioned the price already, so here I go seeing the first part of the article, noticing a mention of ESOTERIC in all caps, then I see the pic with the nice brushed aluminum and my first thought is "sh**, this must be yet another $15000 scam" then I looked for the price.....
Nap.
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EAR-Yoshino DAC by Tim de Paravicini
(est. £4000),
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZpO2S8rH83A/ThGuUyuqVoI/AAAAAAAABPU/gMJFltivDtw/s400/eardac01.jpeg)