AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: danvprod on 15 Mar 2017, 01:17 am
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I just purchased a SurgeX SX-2120, which has a 20 amp cord to plug into the wall. I don't have a dedicated 20 amp circuit in my listening room. I was wondering if it were reasonable to replace the 20 amp connector with a 15 amp? I am not pulling anywhere near this much from my system (low wattage tube amp + 2 servo plate amps).
There are 20 amp to 15 amp adaptors (1' cables) and also I could get a nice industrial grade plug to replace the 20 amp that is on there: https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5266-CA-Industrial-Grounding-Black-White/dp/B001V9LBSY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489543820&sr=8-1&keywords=15+amp+industrial+plug (https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5366-C-Industrial-Grounding-Black-White/dp/B00002NAU9/ref=pd_day0_60_3?
ETA: sorry this was the wrong plug linked above -- I was talking about this:
[url=https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5266-CA-Industrial-Grounding-Black-White/dp/B001V9LBSY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489543820&sr=8-1&keywords=15+amp+industrial+plug)
Or just get a pigtail like this: https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-1F515520-15-Amp-20-Amp-Adapter/dp/B00439KIF6/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1489540514&sr=1-2&keywords=20+amp+to+15+amp (https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-1F515520-15-Amp-20-Amp-Adapter/dp/B00439KIF6/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1489540514&sr=1-2&keywords=20+amp+to+15+amp)
Which has the advantage that if I ever decide to get a 20 amp dedicated in the room I could go for it.
Is this:
1) A stupid idea?
2) Worth it -- i.e. is this SurgeX unit good enough to warrant the extra effort here? I liked the specs of this because it has two banks -- I could use 'A' for all my source components that need to go on first and then 'B' for my three amps.
TIA for the help and sorry for the stupid question.
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This SurgeX SX-2120 is a surge protector or a power conditioning?
If only surge protector you dont need at all this device unless you will run your beloved system during heavy weather.
I even dont use any power conditioner, all they degrade the mains signal unless they are regenerators as PS Audio power plants.
The 15A cord will be safe til 10A continous, you need calc your load of use.
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Thanks @FullRangeMan -- here is the cut sheet http://www.surgex.com/pdf/cutsheetSX2120.pdf (http://www.surgex.com/pdf/cutsheetSX2120.pdf)
It's surge + conditioning...
Yes, I'd like to eventually get towards a regenerator in a few years my tube amp has voltage regulation already (Decware Mini Torii) -- sub amps are DirectServo plate amps (GR Research Super V speakers).
Others are my source -- TT, Phono Pre, CD player and DAC -- so I need 7 total outlets. I don't suspect anywhere need 10A continuous.
Also looking at the PiAudio UberBuss or the PS Audio JuiceBar type devices.
I'm new to thinking about power conditioning, so I appreciate the help and opinions here -- I just pulled the trigger on this SurgeX unit, because it was available at a good deal, but I'm not married to holding onto it...
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The first item you've shown, the Leviton plug is the wrong one. Its a 20 amp plug. Technically, running a 20 amp outlet device like this on a 15 amp circuit is a no-no, but then overloading a regular 15 amp power strip is too.
Why did you buy this 20 amp device when your home does not have a 20 amp outlet? At any rate, the 15 amp circuit breaker will stop you from over-loading it and the wire to your 15 amp outlet in you home.....
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Sorry, I meant something like this @Wayner -- https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5266-C-Industrial-Grounding-Black-White/dp/B001VXU4TC/ref=pd_sim_60_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9BFWXZRVFF5SWYS9PXV9 (https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5266-C-Industrial-Grounding-Black-White/dp/B001VXU4TC/ref=pd_sim_60_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9BFWXZRVFF5SWYS9PXV9)
Honestly, it was a stupid move on my part. I won it on eBay without seeing that it was a 20-amp unit. The reason I am even considering trying to work with it is because the SurgeX stuff seems to be pretty high quality, and I was able to get this for a quite reasonable price.
I was trying to get a reality check here and see if it was worth messing around with or if it was a lost cause.
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Like I said, the device itself doesn't draw anywhere near the current its rated to handle, it will be fine. There is wide spread abuse of the 20 amp outlet anyway. Many power conditioners have them, while the unit itself has a 15 amp cord.????
You'll be fine.
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Sorry, I meant something like this @Wayner -- https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5266-C-Industrial-Grounding-Black-White/dp/B001VXU4TC/ref=pd_sim_60_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9BFWXZRVFF5SWYS9PXV9 (https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5266-C-Industrial-Grounding-Black-White/dp/B001VXU4TC/ref=pd_sim_60_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9BFWXZRVFF5SWYS9PXV9)
Honestly, it was a stupid move on my part. I won it on eBay without seeing that it was a 20-amp unit. The reason I am even considering trying to work with it is because the SurgeX stuff seems to be pretty high quality, and I was able to get this for a quite reasonable price.
I was trying to get a reality check here and see if it was worth messing around with or if it was a lost cause.
You will be fine if you cut off the 20 amp plug and replace it with a good quality 15 amp plug. (Note: If the unit is new cutting off the plug will more than likely void the warranty though, as well as the UL listing. That is if it is Listed.)
The power cord is 12-3. I notice the unit has NEMA 5-15R 15 amp duplex receptacles anyway. (Which meets electrical standards for connection to a 20 amp circuit. If the duplex receptacles were 20 amp then that would be a different story.) The circuit breaker on the back is probably rated at 20 amp but I wouldn't let that bother you. In the event of a short circuit or large ground fault event the 15 amp breaker in the electrical panel will trip open. It should.
The weak link in the circuit is the wall duplex receptacle you will be plugging the unit into. I would recommend the duplex is at bare minimum a good quality spec commercial grade duplex receptacle. You can't beat a heavy duty industrial grade Hubbell 15 amp duplex receptacle. Or a 15 amp Hubbell 8200H hospital grade duplex receptacle.
For what it's worth, per NEC code, in a residential dwelling unit there is no limit to how many 15 amp duplex receptacles you can connect to a 15 or 20 amp branch circuit.
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Thanks for the detailed and informative response, @jea48. Very helpful.
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I would buy the duplex receptacle which the stock plug of your device can fit. Rather than cut the cord.
such as:https://www.amazon.com/Pack-Pass-Seymour-Receptacle-Isolated/dp/B01N07YBOV/ref=sr_1_14?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1489607737&sr=1-14&keywords=20+amp+duplex+receptacle
4 of these guys $10
I despise Leviton btw. And like Pass&Seymour. Levitron have weak as tinfoil holding power. The Pass&Seymour really grip well. and continue to do so for many years.
Anyway,most AUDIOPHILE duplex have the 20 amp plug holes anyway.
look at Furutech: https://www.vhaudio.com/acreceptacles.html Cheapest is about $70
So I say buy the fitting duplex and stick it in the wall. Then your cord fits, stock.
I have replaced all the duplex in my apartment when I moved in! With Pass&Seymour.
First off a new stock duplex has good tension in the prongs. Old duplex are typically WORN OUT, andfail to grasp the plug well.
Anyway, this is my suggestion.
Good luck.
PS I use a Furman REF20i conditioner. I replaced it's 20 amp chassis IEC with a Furutech 15 amp so I can use a stock aftermarket powercord. No problem.
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That would be illegal. You can't put a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit.
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I would buy the duplex receptacle which the stock plug of your device can fit. Rather than cut the cord.
such as:https://www.amazon.com/Pack-Pass-Seymour-Receptacle-Isolated/dp/B01N07YBOV/ref=sr_1_14?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1489607737&sr=1-14&keywords=20+amp+duplex+receptacle
4 of these guys $10
I despise Leviton btw. And like Pass&Seymour. Levitron have weak as tinfoil holding power. The Pass&Seymour really grip well. and continue to do so for many years.
Anyway,most AUDIOPHILE duplex have the 20 amp plug holes anyway.
look at Furutech: https://www.vhaudio.com/acreceptacles.html Cheapest is about $70
So I say buy the fitting duplex and stick it in the wall. Then your cord fits, stock.
I have replaced all the duplex in my apartment when I moved in! With Pass&Seymour.
First off a new stock duplex has good tension in the prongs. Old duplex are typically WORN OUT, andfail to grasp the plug well.
Anyway, this is my suggestion.
Good luck.
PS I use a Furman REF20i conditioner. I replaced it's 20 amp chassis IEC with a Furutech 15 amp so I can use a stock aftermarket powercord. No problem.
And the Furutech outlets are made for 20 amp circuits.
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Thanks @Wayner. I don't want to mess with doing something that is against code. I'd rather replace my duplex with a high-quality industrial or hospital grade 15-amp receptacle and swap the plug on the SurgeX, or get a different conditioner entirely. I was also looking at a Furman IT-REF 15, which obviously is in a totally different price bracket than the SurgeX that I have.
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The problem is that unless you make a short cord, you are not going to find a 20 amp receptacle to a 15 amp plug, 'cause that would be illegal. You could make one with a 20 amp receptacle on one end and a 15 amp plug on the other end. Leviton makes stuff like that, or you might be able to source the single receptacle at a local Menards, Home Depot or Lows if you have any of those in your area. Its kind of cheating, but you know you are not going to overload your circuit and you don't have to change any wiring in your house.
'ner
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This is what I picked up today at Lowe's:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159271)
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In the spirit of not doing anything illegal. Then changing he plug is illegal.Using a 'cheater' is just as 'illegal' (The cheater is the short cord with a 20 amp on one end and a 15 at the other.
And if the cord is legal. then is is legal only because no rule was made. It certainly violates the spirit of the rule!
I would suggest thinking of it like driving. So you never ever 'speed'? Speeding is illegal. It is dangerous, Nearly everyone (except maybe the Amish) SPEED.
I think of the 20 amp receptacle the same way.
IMO the LAW about the 20/15 rule is for electrical contractors and electricians. What you do in your own home? particularly if you know the rule, and the need to not overload the duplex..
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This is a joke? how would use a 20Amp plug or outlet inside a private home be illegal? A 20 ampere plug is even more robust than a 15A.
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I think we have a take a step back and think about a list of no-nos (this is my opinion, of course). Me, as the responsible home-owner has to say to myself: "self, I am not going to overload the circuit" -- and then look at what I am going to plug into the surge protector and make sure it's not going to be above 10-12 amps continuous.
Situations:
Duplex is wired 14/3 wired with a 15 amp breaker. If I put a 20 amp duplex on it, the 15 amp will break before anything happens bad to the 14/3 wire (it should).
Stupid would be replacing the 15 amp with a 20 amp duplex AND swapping out the breaker for a 20 amp. That is recipe for disaster. I am not going to do that.
Using a cheater and plugging the 20 amp cord into a 15 amp duplex seems to be the thing as changing to duplex to 20 amp (how could it not be?). Again the 15 amp breaker will trip if things get bad.
Cutting the cord on the 20 amp 12/3 wire of the surge and changing to a 15 amp plug is the same thing as using the cheater. This voids the warranty of the surge (NBD it's used and is not going to be an issue, and affects the resale value should I try to sell it -- a bigger deal).
Seems changing to a 20 amp duplex and if I decide to move changing it back to a 15 amp duplex seems like a reasonable solution. I really don't see any harm in that. Or using a cheater or changing the plug. The big no-no would be changing the breaker to a 20 amp...which I am obviously not going to do. The 20 amp duplex receptacle by itself is not going to do any harm, it's the fact that it would allow a 20 amp source to be plugged into it where the issue is. And also the possible annoyance of having to reset the breaker vs. resetting the breaker on the surge protector (since it's a 20 amp breaker on the Surge it won't likely trip before the breaker at the box.
Maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way. My audio gear is the only thing plugged into this circuit and as stated in the OP, won't be anywhere close to tripping even the 15 amp.
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This is a joke? how would use a 20Amp plug or outlet inside a private home illegal? A 20 ampere plug is even more robust than a 15A.
I totally agree.
However if you look at the laws governing outlets in the USA electrical codes..
Installing a 20 amp duplex on a 15 amp circuit is not allowed.
However installing a 15 amp duplex on a 20 amp circuit IS allowed.
These are rules for electricians and electrical contractors.
Some folks think they are laws like US statutes.. (which they are not)
My last post comments are 'sarcasm'.. I think folks can use a 20 amp design outlet duplex in a 15 amp circuit. But I agree a electrician cannot. He might lose his license.
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Incredible, a very advanced country in other areas.
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Having recently dealt with a spat of home inspectors, even if the wiring and breaker were up to spec, it still might not be allowed in the home.
Perhaps an alternative simpler solution... why not just list your SurgeX online looking to trade the 20 for a 15?
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That is a reasonable alternative for sure.
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I totally agree.
However if you look at the laws governing outlets in the USA electrical codes..
Installing a 20 amp duplex on a 15 amp circuit is not allowed.
However installing a 15 amp duplex on a 20 amp circuit IS allowed.
These are rules for electricians and electrical contractors.
Some folks think they are laws like US statutes.. (which they are not)
My last post comments are 'sarcasm'.. I think folks can use a 20 amp design outlet duplex in a 15 amp circuit. But I agree a electrician cannot. He might lose his license.
I guess that ignorance is bliss. There are no statute of limitations for electrical wiring. If you alter your home wiring, then do not have it inspected, then something happens (fire or someone's death) and it can be proven in a court of law, you are responsible.
I have been an electrical designer for some time, have passed many NFPA-79e courses (I sure without googling that, you wouldn't have a clue what it is) and have a copy of the NEC in my book case.
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This is what I picked up today at Lowe's:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159271)
Take the duplex receptacle back if you still can. That is a cheap, cheap, cheap, line of Hubbell that is meant to compete with the cheap, cheap, cheap, competition that is out there. One bad thing it uses a galvanized steel back strap.
If you don't mind brown here is a NOS original Hubbell HBL8200H Hospital grade compact/slim body duplex receptacle. Contacts are non plated brass. Supporting back strap is also non plated brass. These are no longer made. Too pricey to compete in today's competive market.
http://www.ebay.com/p/Hubbell-HBL-8200H-15a-125v-Brown-Hosp-Grade-Duplex-Receptacle-5-15r/1978791454
Here is a very good heavy duty spec grade Hubbell duplex receptacle
Again non plated brass contacts and a non plated brass back strap.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hubbell-HBL5262GY-15A-125V-Specification-Grade-Duplex-Receptacle-Gray-/232250971870?hash=item36133c96de:g:BuIAAOSwx6pYr5Wj
From the pictures I believe it is also a compact/slim body style.
If you don't mind red here is another Hubbell non plated brass contacts and non plated brass back strap. Pictures are better. The duplex is definitely the compact/slim body type.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hubbell-HBL5252R-15A-125V-Specification-Grade-Duplex-Receptacle-Red-NEMA5-15R-/232250977322?hash=item36133cac2a:g:8DEAAOSw~AVYr5d8
Last, but still a good Hubbell NOS hospital grade duplex receptacle. This receptacle has a nickel plating over the brass contacts and brass back strap for corrosion protection. This duplex is from Hubbell's extra heavy duty industrial grade series. It uses a deeper body than a compact/slim series.
Hubbell HBL8200I Duplex Receptacle Hospital Grade 15 amp 125V 5-15R Ivory
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hubbell-HBL8200I-Duplex-Receptacle-Hospital-Grade-15-amp-125V-5-15R-Ivory-/262891069181?hash=item3d35875efd:g:vQ0AAOSwWxNYxFep
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What is the outlet and plug for?
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Here, this will fix your problem: https://www.amazon.com/NEMA-5-15P-5-20R-Plug-Adapter/dp/B00DNF5Z2M
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Here, this will fix your problem: https://www.amazon.com/NEMA-5-15P-5-20R-Plug-Adapter/dp/B00DNF5Z2M
So you are fine with circumventing the idea that a 20 amp device should not be plugged into a 15 amp circuit?
As long as it gets around the rules?
I am playing 'Devil's advocate' here. I have no problem with it at all. I just wonder why you think this is OK.
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I decided to just get a 15 Amp unit. Not sure which one but going to sell the SurgeX.
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I decided to just get a 15 Amp unit. Not sure which one but going to sell the SurgeX.
Do what you want. But there was nothing wrong with just changing the 20 amp plug to a 15 amp plug. The unit has 15 amp duplex outlets not 20 amp duplexes. The only difference is the 20 amp circuit breaker on the back of the unit. Hell in the event of a short circuit or ground fault event the circuit breaker on the unit will probably respond quicker than the circuit breaker in the electrical panel. How many 15 amps plug strips have you seen without any circuit breaker at all.
Even if you buy a 15 amp unit I would still recommend you buy and install a good heavy duty duplex receptacle for the outlet the unit will plug into. Just remember all your audio equipment will essentially be plugged into a single receptacle. You want the best plug blade to female contact surface area and contact pressure possible.
Hubbell Receptacles
Check out pages 6, 10, and 8.
http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/catalogpages/H5254.pdf
Scroll down the pages and find that cheap Hubbell duplex receptacle you bought in the link.... See any cut away pictures showing the construction and contacts? No. Why do you think that is? The insides are nothing like those found on the duplex receptacles shown on pages 6, 8, and 10.
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So you are fine with circumventing the idea that a 20 amp device should not be plugged into a 15 amp circuit?
As long as it gets around the rules?
I am playing 'Devil's advocate' here. I have no problem with it at all. I just wonder why you think this is OK.
The device itself does not draw 20 amps, unlike, say a welder. You can overload a 15 amp power strip too. The OP (unlike a few others) seems to have a handle on the overloading concept. My suggestion was a plausible work-around without altering the home wiring.
Pangea (thru Audio Advisor) offers 20 amp outlets mounted in a box, with a 20 amp IEC outlet for power. Their solution was a 20 IEC cord to a 15 amp straight blade. Because it has a cord (not hard wired), it can be considered a "temporary" device (portable too).
'ner
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Local codes may dictate exactly what can be installed, but from a safety standpoint, installing a 20 amp outlet (that is, an outlet designed to handle up to 20 amps) on a circuit with a 15 amp breaker is fine. The circuit breaker will trip before the outlet reaches capacity. The other way around would be dangerous. A 15 amp outlet installed on a circuit with a 20 amp breaker would allow the outlet to be used over capacity before the breaker would trip. The same is true for the actual wiring. You can install wire capable of handling more current than the breaker, because the breaker is what provides the protection and the wire would never be used over capacity. 15 amp capable wire run to a 20 amp breaker on the other hand will fail before the breaker trips. In short, everything downstream of the breaker must be rated at least to what the breaker is. More is OK, less is not.
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Local codes may dictate exactly what can be installed, but from a safety standpoint, installing a 20 amp outlet (that is, an outlet designed to handle up to 20 amps) on a circuit with a 15 amp breaker is fine. The circuit breaker will trip before the outlet reaches capacity. The other way around would be dangerous. A 15 amp outlet installed on a circuit with a 20 amp breaker would allow the outlet to be used over capacity before the breaker would trip. The same is true for the actual wiring. You can install wire capable of handling more current than the breaker, because the breaker is what provides the protection and the wire would never be used over capacity. 15 amp capable wire run to a 20 amp breaker on the other hand will fail before the breaker trips. In short, everything downstream of the breaker must be rated at least to what the breaker is. More is OK, less is not.
Correct. This Surge X conditioner is safe to me, what will say there is some risk is the load in use by the custumer.
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Local codes may dictate exactly what can be installed, but from a safety standpoint, installing a 20 amp outlet (that is, an outlet designed to handle up to 20 amps) on a circuit with a 15 amp breaker is fine. The circuit breaker will trip before the outlet reaches capacity. The other way around would be dangerous. A 15 amp outlet installed on a circuit with a 20 amp breaker would allow the outlet to be used over capacity before the breaker would trip. The same is true for the actual wiring. You can install wire capable of handling more current than the breaker, because the breaker is what provides the protection and the wire would never be used over capacity. 15 amp capable wire run to a 20 amp breaker on the other hand will fail before the breaker trips. In short, everything downstream of the breaker must be rated at least to what the breaker is. More is OK, less is not.
Wrong. You have it exactly backwards. A 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit is a no-no. A 20 or 20/15 outlet on a 20 amp circuit is OK.
Wire does not provide protection, the circuit breaker does.
A perfect 15 amp circuit would have a 15 amp outlet, 14 gauge wire (or heavier)(THHN) and a 15 amp breaker.
A perfect 20 amp circuit would have a 20 or 20/15 amp outlet, 12 gauge wire (or heavier)(THHN) and a 20 amp breaker.
The breaker protects the wire and the outlet, it is the electrical guardian of the circuit.
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Local codes may dictate exactly what can be installed, but from a safety standpoint, installing a 20 amp outlet (that is, an outlet designed to handle up to 20 amps) on a circuit with a 15 amp breaker is fine. The circuit breaker will trip before the outlet reaches capacity. The other way around would be dangerous. A 15 amp outlet installed on a circuit with a 20 amp breaker would allow the outlet to be used over capacity before the breaker would trip. The same is true for the actual wiring. You can install wire capable of handling more current than the breaker, because the breaker is what provides the protection and the wire would never be used over capacity. 15 amp capable wire run to a 20 amp breaker on the other hand will fail before the breaker trips. In short, everything downstream of the breaker must be rated at least to what the breaker is. More is OK, less is not.
Local codes may dictate exactly what can be installed, but from a safety standpoint, installing a 20 amp outlet (that is, an outlet designed to handle up to 20 amps) on a circuit with a 15 amp breaker is fine.
Strictly speaking, it is not ok with NEC code. NEMA 125V 15 and 20 amp receptacle face plate configurations are made different for a reason. In most cases the contacts found in a 15 amp receptacle are the same as found in a 20 amp receptacle. Only the face plates are different. Per NEC code a 15 amp duplex receptacle must have a 20 amp pass through rating. It doesn't matter if the duplex is connected to a 15 amp branch circuit or a 20 amp branch circuit. The pass through rating is 20 amp.
Per NEC code you can install 2 or more 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp branch circuit.
You can not install a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp branch circuit.
The circuit breaker will trip before the outlet reaches capacity.
That's a myth. Even if the breaker is operating within its' design standards it will not trip the second it reaches its' handle rating. In fact per NEMA standards, in the case of an overload, it is required to trip open in less than 1 hour overloaded at 135%. Less than 120 seconds when overloaded at 200%.
Article is from 2007
https://www.tdi.texas.gov/fire/documents/fmnec70papers.pdf
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Good job!
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Really interesting article to link here. I've learned quite a lot in this thread.
@jea48 -- this makes sense (re: 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp branch circuits) -- looking at my breaker box I have several 20 amp branch circuits, but all the receptacles in my house a 15 amp.
Also, thanks @jea48 for the suggestions on better 15 amp receptacles. I will install those in my listening room anyways -- Make sense to have one for the speaker system and also my computer's battery backup (which is on a difference branch circuit).
The "specification grade" units you've linked look quite nice: http://www.ebay.com/itm/232250971870?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/232250971870?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
I was able to bring back both of the units I purchased yesterday (The hubbell plug and receptacle).
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Do you think something like this would work well?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BrickWall-PW8R15-15A-120V-8-outlet-Surge-protector-No-MOVs-10-year-warranty-/221777183046?hash=item33a2f34146:g:OlEAAOSwDNdVrr2E (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BrickWall-PW8R15-15A-120V-8-outlet-Surge-protector-No-MOVs-10-year-warranty-/221777183046?hash=item33a2f34146:g:OlEAAOSwDNdVrr2E)
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I have no personal experience with it, but I've heard good things about Brickwall. Them, along with Furman, SurgeX and ZeroSurge are maybe the most "no-nonsense" non-sacrificial surge protectors/conditioners you can get. Actually there's one more name I'm forgetting that's up there... if it comes to me I'll post it later.
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I decided to just get a 15 Amp unit. Not sure which one but going to sell the SurgeX.
:thumb:
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Just as an update on this.
I ended up getting the recommended Hubbell HBL5262GY 15A 125V Specification Grade Duplex Receptacle.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hubbell-HBL5262GY-15A-125V-Specification-Grade-Duplex-Receptacle-Gray-/232250971870?hash=item36133c96de:g:BuIAAOSwx6pYr5Wj (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hubbell-HBL5262GY-15A-125V-Specification-Grade-Duplex-Receptacle-Gray-/232250971870?hash=item36133c96de:g:BuIAAOSwx6pYr5Wj)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160912)
I also ended up getting a Audio Prism Foundation III Power Line Filter.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160911)
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Just as an update on this.
I ended up getting the recommended Hubbell HBL5262GY 15A 125V Specification Grade Duplex Receptacle.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hubbell-HBL5262GY-15A-125V-Specification-Grade-Duplex-Receptacle-Gray-/232250971870?hash=item36133c96de:g:BuIAAOSwx6pYr5Wj (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hubbell-HBL5262GY-15A-125V-Specification-Grade-Duplex-Receptacle-Gray-/232250971870?hash=item36133c96de:g:BuIAAOSwx6pYr5Wj)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160912)
I also ended up getting a Audio Prism Foundation III Power Line Filter.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160911)
You might want to check the stainless duplex cover plate to make sure it does not have ferrous materials in it. You can check it with a strong magnet. If a magnet is attracted to it replace it with a better quality SS plate. Just take the magnet with you and check the plate before buying.
A ferrous duplex cover plate can dull the sound of an audio system.
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Don't sell the 20A SurgeX, it's a really good unit. It provides the best surge protection on the market as well as a good EMI/RFI filter and it is very transparent, it works great with big amps too which isn't the case for many conditioners.
It's been covered but the 15/20A at the plug/receptacle side are the same except for geometry, what you risk is tripping your main breaker, it's not really a safety concern. If you're really worried about it the 20A circuit breaker in the SurgeX can easily and cheaply be replaced with a 15A unit.
I mod two of the SurgeX models, if you have any questions or want to improve the unit let me know, it can be improved quite a bit.
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I mod two of the SurgeX models, if you have any questions or want to improve the unit let me know, it can be improved quite a bit.
Someone may say NEC dont allow it.
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So the next thing to address is the audible humming of the two transformers on my plate amp (60Hz). This is not audible through the speakers, but I can hear it in the amps. The speakers have a very faint hum and hiss if I get my ears really close to them (they are 97 dB efficient) and there is also a 60 Hz hum coming through the subwoofers. I was hoping the power conditioner would have addressed this, but any other ideas to attenuate these ground issues?
One thing I thought of is that if there is DC on my AC line, that would cause the toroid transformers to hum. The power foundation doesn't do anything with DC offset if its there.
We are talking about the last 2-3% here...
I also upgraded my speaker cables to a braided design, which should help deal with RF/EMI issues.
ETA I should mention that I can hear the transformers buzzing if I stick my ear up to them even with the power bypassed. These are the Rhythmik Audio DirectServo 370 amps for my GR Super Vs.
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So the next thing to address is the audible humming of the two transformers on my plate amp (60Hz). This is not audible through the speakers, but I can hear it in the amps. The speakers have a very faint hum and hiss if I get my ears really close to them (they are 97 dB efficient) and there is also a 60 Hz hum coming through the subwoofers. I was hoping the power conditioner would have addressed this, but any other ideas to attenuate these ground issues?
One thing I thought of is that if there is DC on my AC line, that would cause the toroid transformers to hum. The power foundation doesn't do anything with DC offset if its there.
We are talking about the last 2-3% here...
I also upgraded my speaker cables to a braided design, which should help deal with RF/EMI issues.
ETA I should mention that I can hear the transformers buzzing if I stick my ear up to them even with the power bypassed. These are the Rhythmik Audio DirectServo 370 amps for my GR Super Vs.
For an transformer not hum under service it has to be really hi quality made and not run hard(under 40%) and the hiss seems came from the tweeter and xovers imo.
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Someone may say NEC dont allow it.
Technically NEC stops at the wall receptacle and duplex cover plate.
Like many have said in this thread, cut off the 20 amp plug and replace it with a 15 amp plug. The duplex receptacles on the unit are 15 amp. If the OP decides to sell the unit at a later date just through in a 20 amp plug in the deal. Trust me the buyer will more than likely leave on the 15 amp plug.
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danvprod,
Have you ever experimented with using different duplex cover plates, there in, steel, plastic, flexible nylon, aluminum, non ferrous stainless steel, and listened for differences in sound from the audio system?
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So the next thing to address is the audible humming of the two transformers on my plate amp (60Hz). This is not audible through the speakers, but I can hear it in the amps. The speakers have a very faint hum and hiss if I get my ears really close to them (they are 97 dB efficient) and there is also a 60 Hz hum coming through the subwoofers. I was hoping the power conditioner would have addressed this, but any other ideas to attenuate these ground issues?
One thing I thought of is that if there is DC on my AC line, that would cause the toroid transformers to hum. The power foundation doesn't do anything with DC offset if its there.
I also upgraded my speaker cables to a braided design, which should help deal with RF/EMI issues.
It's true that DC or other grunge is likely the culprit of transformer buzzing. Do you have anything on the circuit that might be generating that grunge? Dimmer switches and LED/CFL bulbs are a big culprit, but cheap wallwarts are also suspect. I just figured out the other day that my toaster oven creates buzz even when it's not turned on, merely plugged in (I'm guessing it's a horrible power supply for the digital panel).
Speaker cables do not really worry about EMI unless the cable happens to act as an antenna (which is bad in many ways). Do be aware that tight braids could potentially create higher capacitance, which is undesirable in a typical speaker able.
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re: items on circuit. I have a ceiling fan, which has a halogen light in it connected to a z-wave dimmer switch. I also have a lamp with a CFL bulb and that is about it. My computer is on another circuit on a UPS, as is my laser printer. It's regrettable that the ceiling fan is on the same circuit, but my hands are tied, unless I pull another circuit up to the attic where my listening room is. That circuit is much less noisy than the other one in the space (which I've put my computer on).
I've not yet tired swapping out receptacle covers.
My speaker cable is like this -- 6-conductor braided: http://www.electracable.com/speakercables.htm (http://www.electracable.com/speakercables.htm)
Another idea I've thought about is adding an isolation transformer. There are the toroid corp 10 amp units like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/382039503947?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/382039503947?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
I suppose I should check the quality of my earth ground at my mains supply box as well.
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Is there any difference in the buzzing if you shut off the fan/dimmer/lamp? What if you turn off and unplug the computer/printer?
Swapping the receptacle cover shouldn't do anything. Personally I just go with plastic covers for safety. I've seen fires start from receptacle covers falling off and shorting out on the plugs.
An isolation transformer will in theory remove the DC component from reaching your amp. However, there's a high likelihood that the isolation transformer will then be the one buzzing (but if it's sturdier and/or further away, then you may not notice it... and the protection it offers is nice too). The Emotiva CMX-2 is also a reasonably cheap DC blocker.
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That would be illegal. You can't put a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit.
No such thing as illegal anymore. He can do anything he wants.
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Ditch the dynamics supressor. Chuck it out the car window going 60. Watch it surpress your dynamics no more! As it heads its way into the ditch blowing into a thousand pieces of ripoff.
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Is there any difference in the buzzing if you shut off the fan/dimmer/lamp? What if you turn off and unplug the computer/printer?
Swapping the receptacle cover shouldn't do anything. Personally I just go with plastic covers for safety. I've seen fires start from receptacle covers falling off and shorting out on the plugs.
An isolation transformer will in theory remove the DC component from reaching your amp. However, there's a high likelihood that the isolation transformer will then be the one buzzing (but if it's sturdier and/or further away, then you may not notice it... and the protection it offers is nice too). The Emotiva CMX-2 is also a reasonably cheap DC blocker.
~ ~
Swapping the receptacle cover shouldn't do anything. Personally I just go with plastic covers for safety.
Not for a buzzing problem it won't.
It can have an impact on the SQ of an audio system though. For better or worse.
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Note the date of the post. February 10,2006
My results with stainless steel outlet plate cover.
Posted by Al Sekela (A) on February 10, 2006 at 09:53:28
In Reply to: Al, my system is dead quite. posted by jea48 on February 8, 2006 at 14:49:09:
I just finished a five-way comparison of outlet cover plates (on 2-gang metal box):
1. no outlet plate (old standard);
2. magnetic SS outlet plate with Nylon screws (verified not grounded with ohmmeter);
3. same, but with one steel screw to ground it;
4. same as 3. with magnets stuck to outside of plate;
5. High-abuse Nylon plate with Nylon screws. Also tested with both 2-gang boxes covered with Nylon plates.
Test CD was Shirley Horn, _You Won't Forget Me_, Verve 847 482-2.
Numbers 1 and 5 were so close I decided to leave the Nylon plates in place.
Number 2 gave an added sense of air and resonance, which led me to test the SS plate for acoustic ringing. It rings like a bell with a pure, sweet, high sustained tone, and a lot of atonal immediate crash like a cymbal. With this thing vibrating near the outlet and not grounded, it is acting like a dynamo and converting acoustic vibration into electrical noise within the power circuit and/or safety earth.
Numbers 3 and 4 dulled the sound compared to number 1: not in the sense of lost treble, but in a lack of midrange presence. With my system tuned up, I can hear Shirley smile as she sings, "...should there be eyes like [:)]yours..." near the beginning of track 12, "You Stepped Out of a Dream." This sense of a smile was diminished with treatments 3 and 4. The piano tone was also less appealing in general. Her voice seemed less cohesive over her range.
Thus, my results are similar to yours with respect to grounded versus floating plates, but I believe the apparent improvement with the ungrounded plate is due to euphonic coloration rather than increased detail retrieval. You can confirm this by listening carefully with the ungrounded plate in place, and then with it removed. Other inmates have observed improved performance with no plate at all on the outlet, but clearly this is not safe for most people and violates code. In my case, anyone who approached the uncovered outlets would probably have died from tripping over the equipment and cables before reaching the outlets, so I was not concerned about the safety aspect. The Nylon plates' appearance matches the other outlets in the room, so I will leave them on.
https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/tweaks/127995/my-results-with-stainless-steel-outlet-plate-cover
Entire thread:
https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=tweaks&n=127735&highlight=Lower+cost+in-wall+AC+outlet+tweaking&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fforum%3Dtweaks%26searchtext%3DLower%2Bcost%2Bin-wall%2BAC%2Boutlet%2Btweaking
Note:
In my new house the dedicated circuits for my audio equipment are 20 amp using #10-2 with ground NM-B cable. (Romex is a trade name of)
Wall rough-in boxes are plastic.
Duplex receptacles, I am still using the cryoed Hubbell HBL 8300H from my old house.
Wall duplex cover plates are P&S non breakable nylon plates.
From my personal experience as well as others, a ferrous duplex cover plate will degrade the sound of your audio system.
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I guess that ignorance is bliss. There are no statute of limitations for electrical wiring. If you alter your home wiring, then do not have it inspected, then something happens (fire or someone's death) and it can be proven in a court of law, you are responsible.
I have been an electrical designer for some time, have passed many NFPA-79e courses (I sure without googling that, you wouldn't have a clue what it is) and have a copy of the NEC in my book case.
Show me one example of a fire or a death resulting from a 20amp duplex outlet fitted on a 15 amp circuit. Or a 20 amp male/female connect. Surely there must be? Show me one.
Guess what you cant because that won't cause a fire or death ... lol. Well it could if the person fires up a 20 amp power tool and leaves it running and goes shopping while the kids are asleep. lol
You make me laugh Wayner.
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No such thing as illegal anymore. He can do anything he wants.
The NEC, National Electrical Code, does not have any legal standing what so ever to force anyone to comply with its' bare minimum electrical safety standards.
State, county, and Local, governing bodies on the other hand do. States can an do pass laws that adopt all or part of current NEC standards. Local AHJ, Authority Having Jurisdiction, also adopt part or all of current NEC standards and have the power through local ordinances, to enforce the ordinances, law. Some AHJ pass ordinances with even stricter standards than NEC. Through these ordinances, laws, in the event of personal injury, loss of life, fire, charges can be filed against those that violate the law. Because of the ordinances, laws, insurance companies can legally deny a claim if it is found the property owner was negligent. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
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Through these ordinances, laws, in the event of personal injury, loss of life, fire, charges can be filed against those that violate the law. Because of the ordinances, laws, insurance companies can legally deny a claim if it is found the property owner was negligent. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
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Now have you or anyone seen a post of an audiophile bemoaning the fact his insurance refused to pay due to some failure of a powercord or modified component? Ever?
I have never read such a post. here, or in many other sites covering audiophile stuff.
So in effect your comment is a scare tactic.
Now if you can find genuine post of past comments by real audiophiles who actually were denied coverage FOR THESE REASONS (not other vague ones) I would be ever so glad to see the links...
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No such thing as illegal anymore. He can do anything he wants.
That would be illegal. You can't put a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit.
No such thing as illegal anymore. He can do anything he wants.
The correct solution is educate the home user, silly codes, low grade outlets and cheap electricians will not help and will made it a mess.
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The NEC, National Electrical Code, does not have any legal standing what so ever to force anyone to comply with its' bare minimum electrical safety standards.
State, county, and Local, governing bodies on the other hand do. States can an do pass laws that adopt all or part of current NEC standards. Local AHJ, Authority Having Jurisdiction, also adopt part or all of current NEC standards and have the power through local ordinances, to enforce the ordinances, law. Some AHJ pass ordinances with even stricter standards than NEC. Through these ordinances, laws, in the event of personal injury, loss of life, fire, charges can be filed against those that violate the law. Because of the ordinances, laws, insurance companies can legally deny a claim if it is found the property owner was negligent. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
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It's a code, not the electrical police force. However, I doubt that any public official or community would make a ruling that would contradict any of the codes, to do so would be just plain stupid. The NEC offers "alternative methods" to choose from.
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Now have you or anyone seen a post of an audiophile bemoaning the fact his insurance refused to pay due to some failure of a powercord or modified component? Ever?
I have never read such a post. here, or in many other sites covering audiophile stuff.
So in effect your comment is a scare tactic.
Now if you can find genuine post of past comments by real audiophiles who actually were denied coverage FOR THESE REASONS (not other vague ones) I would be ever so glad to see the links...
Now have you or anyone seen a post of an audiophile bemoaning the fact his insurance refused to pay due to some failure of a powercord or modified component? Ever?
After market power cords or mods to audio equipment has absolutely nothing to do with the NEC.
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Well, lots of equipment has a UL label, and they might care. Your advice to people is pretty "out there" as you do not have a clue what would happen to "doctored" up equipment and a fire. Fire inspector will find the cause of the fire, and who knows where that would lead to.
You can do what ever you want in your home.
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Well, lots of equipment has a UL label, and they might care. Your advice to people is pretty "out there" as you do not have a clue what would happen to "doctored" up equipment and a fire. Fire inspector will find the cause of the fire, and who knows where that would lead to.
You can do what ever you want in your home.
Wayne,
My comments were directed back to Elizabeth's response to mine regarding the NEC. My response to her is accurate in that regard.
As for your post I would agree with what you said about UL Listed products sold here in the US. One problem though, more and more Audio equipment being manufactured and sold here in the USA is not UL Listed. Some are not Listed by any recognized third party testing laboratory at all.
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OK.
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Hi, I know this thread is old but I hope someone can answer my question. I have three Crown itech amps which are 20 amp. I have been using a Furman 20amp to 15amp adapter since I do not have 20amp receptacles in my home, and thus far I have never had any issues or tripped my breaker. I am shopping for a BrickWall or ZeroSurge protector and trying to decide what the better route would be. Purchasing a 20 am surge and using a single Furman adapter to connect to the wall or purchasing a 15amp surge protector and using the adapters with my amps which I am currently doing? Pros and cons? Which is optimal for performance and protection?
Thanks!
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Don, I cant imagine why you use all these electric treatment stuff.
These equips wont add more Tension/Current to your electric energy, they will only try do something.
Why you need protection?
?Do you will run your beloved hi-fi system during a storm?
?Do you need let your expensive system plugged on the wall 24/7?
I unplug my system from the wall after a listening.
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Don, I cant imagine why you use all these electric treatment stuff.
These equips wont add more Tension/Current to your electric energy, they will only try do something.
Why you need protection?
?Do you will run your beloved hi-fi system during a storm?
....................................... .......
I agree.
Surge suppression is about high voltage events. The only difference between a 15A and a 20A point of use surge suppressor is the style of plug and receptacle that they have.
Both 15A & 20A dual receptacles have the same internal current rating. The only difference is the pin style.
The best surge suppression is a whole home system, installed at/near the main breaker panel.
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I always thought unplugging equipment is bad for the caps but I suppose it’s only bad if you have it u plugged for a long time? What whole house surge protector do you recommend? I assume I need to get an electrician to install? I was looking at whole house surge protection awhile back and got so confused when came upon a company that offers whole house solution but also recommended surge within the house as well...can anyone clarify if that is necessary if I install a whole house solution?
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I cant inform about caps life as I have not see any test on it, seems this is a rule thumb. I cant inform on house surge protectors as I located overseas.
If I complaint my power company on surge protectors they will install one such device at a additional cost. Sorry this poor help.
It could help to know if your house or building have a working grounding for lightning protection.
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I was looking at couple website and they discuss three different stages of surge protection: service entrance protection, branch circuit protection, and point of use protection. Some companies recommend using both point of entry protection and point of use protection. Seems a bit redundant but the argument they raise is internal surges. Will the internal surges within the house damage my equipment over time?
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Will the internal surges within the house damage my equipment over time?
The idea behind it is that they protect your equipment.
After I had a PC power supply fried by a lightning during a ligh rain that hit the ground at 50m from my building I dont rely in these such protective devices.
My suggestion is dont let equipment pluged on mains after use, mainly at night.
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Hi, I know this thread is old but I hope someone can answer my question. I have three Crown itech amps which are 20 amp. I have been using a Furman 20amp to 15amp adapter since I do not have 20amp receptacles in my home, and thus far I have never had any issues or tripped my breaker. I am shopping for a BrickWall or ZeroSurge protector and trying to decide what the better route would be. Purchasing a 20 am surge and using a single Furman adapter to connect to the wall or purchasing a 15amp surge protector and using the adapters with my amps which I am currently doing? Pros and cons? Which is optimal for performance and protection?
Thanks!
It looks like the Furman adapter has a built in 15 amp limiter. I guess the question is do you care about resale value of the surge protector. If not then I would get the 20 amp version and use one adapter on the end of surge protector. If you do care about resale value I would leave the adapters on the Crown cords and get a 15 amp surge protector.
In either case the total current draw of the three amps combined will be 15 amps.
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Thanks for the replies! Confused with the resale statement. Does the 20amp surge protector have higher lower resale value? Or is there a different reason why? I’m not damaging any of my components by using the adapter?
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Thanks for the replies! Confused with the resale statement. Does the 20amp surge protector have higher lower resale value? Or is there a different reason why? I’m not damaging any of my components by using the adapter?
While you are not damaging anything by using the adapter, where I live I expect a 20 amp anything to have lower resale value because it is very rare to have 20 amp receptacles in houses. The people I know would just rather buy a 15 amp version of an amplifier, surge protector, etc. that plugs directly into the wall without an adapter. YMMV.
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So if I decided to go the route of no surge protector and unplugging my equipment at night then what are you guys using to expand the number of outlets without hindering performance?
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I could use a inexpensive power strip, this seems very good.
No fancy audiophiles models, this is even EMI, RFI and Surge ''protector'' as you like.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SS6Block--furman-ss-6b-6-outlet-power-strip
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Thanks for the replies! Confused with the resale statement. Does the 20amp surge protector have higher lower resale value? Or is there a different reason why? I’m not damaging any of my components by using the adapter?
A used surge protector has little resale value.
A modified surge protector has zero resale value.
The NEC and UL have nasty rules about modifying completed assemblies.
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If I went with one of the recommendations listed in here via Sweetwater; would that not be the same thing as going with a Zerosurge or Brickwall? Wouldn’t that device by Furman also cause a bottleneck from one receptical outlet?
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Wouldn’t that device by Furman also cause a bottleneck from one receptical outlet?
Yes if your appliances consume a lot of power, if you have several outlets available for them better.
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If you plug the Crown amplifiers into different electrical outlets in the house that are on the same circuit breaker the maximum electrical current to all three combined will be 15 amps.
This is the same maximum current as plugging the three Crown amplifiers into the Furman power strip. So any sound quality difference won't be related to the maximum electrical current.
I you want more maximum electrical current for your amplifiers you need to plug each amplifier into a separate circuit breaker. Then you'll be able to consume 3x15 amps or 45 amps of total current.
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If you plug the Crown amplifiers into different electrical outlets in the house that are on the same circuit breaker the maximum electrical current to all three combined will be 15 amps.
This is the same maximum current as plugging the three Crown amplifiers into the Furman power strip. So any sound quality difference won't be related to the maximum electrical current.
I you want more maximum electrical current for your amplifiers you need to plug each amplifier into a separate circuit breaker. Then you'll be able to consume 3x15 amps or 45 amps of total current.
I agree with Doublej...the best way to go is to have installed two 20 amp circuits. When I built my room I included two outlets that were 20amps.
Also I got rid of my FURMAN ELITE and invested in a manual line fault protector from HOME DEPOT. I purchased more than one and they only cost me $25.00 each.
IMO line conditioners/surge protectors costing hundreds of $$ are a waste of money 💰unless of course you live in an area that is deluged with lightening storms, even then something like the FURMAN is not 100% guaranteed to protect your equipment.
Mother Nature is always in command!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181842)
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The only significant limit on available current is the circuit breaker. When it trips the current is extremely limited.
In a circuit of old fashioned filament light bulbs drawing 15 Amps steady state, that circuit will supply the 150 Amp turn-on current to the bulbs.
The ratings for breakers, wires, receptacles and such, is a continuous steady state rating. Continuous is this case is 3 hours. While hi-fi amplifiers draw peak power for only very short periods of time.
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Don,
What is the gauge wire that serve your outlets?
The wire is solid or stranded?
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Why would solid or stranded matter in the least?
Anyway it's probably a mix of solid and stranded and maybe a mix of copper and aluminum.
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Why would solid or stranded matter in the least?
Anyway it's probably a mix of solid and stranded and maybe a mix of copper and aluminum.
Solid copper allow more heat and current than stranded.
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Solid copper allow more heat and current than stranded.
Both carry the same current rating and that's with a large safety margin.
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Both carry the same current rating and that's with a large safety margin.
Correct but the stranded heat faster and corrode faster than the solid, not a first class service, in my country it is used solid only for buildings.
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Correct but the stranded heat faster and corrode faster than the solid, not a first class service, in my country it is used solid only for buildings.
In the US none of that is a problem and almost all larger wire is stranded.
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In the mid 1990s I bough a awg 8 aluminium power cable and try it as speaker cable, it show a awful sound quality :duh: