[rustydoglim]

Yes. So at least part of the problem is caused by the dac. (both the DAC-9 and the dac in the AVR when used by an external device)

I confirmed with R&D that when changing the source sampling rate, our DAC has to detect the change, and during the transition, there could be pop noise so a small part of the music during the transition is muted. Apparently, the dac in your AVR also uses the same design to prevent pop noise.

[HansSo]

The cable arrived so I could perform the tests using the DacMagic. There were no surprises, with SRC off or on streaming via lms or direct from Qobuz it behaved just like the DAC-9.

So here are the final results :

Group 1.
Perfect transitions between tracks of different samplerate

Qobuz ==> LMS ==> AVR
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9 ==> DacMagic
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS(resample) ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DacMagic

Group 2.
Missing small fragments at transitions between tracks of different samplerate

Qobuz ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> Stream-9 ==> DacMagic
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9 ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9 ==> DacMagic
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Bluray ==> AVR
Qobuz ==> PC ==> DAC-9

Group 3.
Missing large fragments at transitions between tracks of different samplerate

Qobuz ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DacMagic
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DAC-9
Qobuz ==> LMS ==> Stream-9(SRC) ==> DacMagic

So the conclusion is that zappan was right and that with SRC off on the Stream-9 any missing fragments are caused by the DAC.
Much obliged to you Sir.

What the issue is with SRC on is clearly beyond my knowledge and testing capability, I have a theory about it but can not possibly confirm that.

My theory is that after a samplerate change with SRC on the Stream-9 sends a few samples to the dac with a different samplerate then the one SRC is set at forcing the DAC-9 to re-lock. If it succeeds is unknown, maybe the samples are just garbage. The Stream-9 then starts sending samples at the rate SRC is set at forcing the DAC-9 to once again re-lock this time succeeding and flashing the SRC rate on it's display.

So version 4.6.520554.52 seems to indeed have fixed the issue with missing fragments after a samplerate change and any missing fragments experienced now are caused by the dac.
The clicks and pops when streaming 192kHz (fix 2) seems to be nearly fixed. While 192kHz streams fine 99% of the time now there still is the occasional click or pop so it still seems to push the Stream-9 to the edge of it's performance limit sometimes pushing it over.

The issue I mentioned in an earlier about an issue when the first track of a playlist is 192kHz or when skipping to a 192kHz track is definitely a lms issue. It sounds like a buffer is not filled quickly enough in these situations causing a few dropouts during the first 2 to 3 seconds of a track. I can easily produce this when using lms but not when streaming directly from Qobuz so this is not an issue with the Stream-9.

[rustydoglim]

Thanks for the tests.

[Cykomiko]

It can revert back if you manually update the firmware (we will provide the firmware file).

How will firmware 4.6.439250.52 be provided? Do I have to request it individually from your support team or will it be uploaded to the Stream-9 product page?

[rustydoglim]

I will arrange for it to appear on the product page, since it is Friday in Taiwan, it might be until next week.  I will post my follow up here.

[dburna]

Just got me a Stream-9 and am very happy with how it performs. Got a couple questions:

1. How does one perform a firmware update? Does it need the LAN connection for this?

2. What is the remote (universal) code for this.....in case I want to deploy a universal remote?

3. I am unable to get the optional input to work with an old TV I have. One issue is that the TOSLink connection on the cable I have seems loose. Would anyone have suggestions on a basic optical cable that would work well.....and that someone has tried with the Stream-9, so they know the fit is snug/secure? I am learning that all optical cables are not created the same, and that a cable that works well on one piece of equipment doesn't fit securely on another.

Thanks in advance for your help, Dave

[rustydoglim]

1. How does one perform a firmware update? Does it need the LAN connection for this?

2. What is the remote (universal) code for this.....in case I want to deploy a universal remote?

If you don't have the problem described here, don't update.  If you must update, follow the instruction on the App & Firmware tab on the product page.

I will find out about the remote code.

[dburna]

If you don't have the problem described here, don't update.  If you must update, follow the instruction on the App & Firmware tab on the product page.

I will find out about the remote code.

Understood -- I won't upgrade. 

Thanks for looking for the universal remote code for me. Much appreciated.

-dGB

[rustydoglim]

Eventually, when we have our next generation Stream-9X, we will work out a way for existing customers to upgrade with minimal cost (most likely by swapping out the main board). Dealers won't be happy about this upgrade, but sometimes we will make an exception. Stream-9 sound is perfect, but the streaming service support is not the best (it doesn't have Roon Ready or Chromecast). 

[dburna]

Eventually, when we have our next generation Stream-9X, we will work out a way for existing customers to upgrade with minimal cost (most likely by swapping out the main board). Dealers won't be happy about this upgrade, but sometimes we will make an exception. Stream-9 sound is perfect, but the streaming service support is not the best (it doesn't have Roon Ready or Chromecast).

Oooooh, sounds great. Any general ETA for this update?

As an aside, thanks for doing something like this as it is very customer-friendly. I wish more manufacturers did something like this. I know some do, but not many.

[esiu]

Eventually, when we have our next generation Stream-9X, we will work out a way for existing customers to upgrade with minimal cost (most likely by swapping out the main board). Dealers won't be happy about this upgrade, but sometimes we will make an exception. Stream-9 sound is perfect, but the streaming service support is not the best (it doesn't have Roon Ready or Chromecast).

Great news! I hope Nuprime would upgrade the transformer as an option, too. Frankly, the current is not good enough. I'm looking forward to this upgrade & hopefully, it won't cost a leg & arm.

[dburna]

3. I am unable to get the optional input to work with an old TV I have. One issue is that the TOSLink connection on the cable I have seems loose. Would anyone have suggestions on a basic optical cable that would work well.....and that someone has tried with the Stream-9, so they know the fit is snug/secure? I am learning that all optical cables are not created the same, and that a cable that works well on one piece of equipment doesn't fit securely on another.

Just following up on this question: do any Stream-9 users have suggestions on TOSlink (optical) cables that form a tight connection with the Stream-9 and "work" with the streamer? So far I have tried the two cables I have, and neither have worked with my old TV. Neither has a decent connection to the Stream-9. I know there's a lot of variability with TOSlink cables, I am hoping users can suggest workable options for me. I'd prefer not to "give up" on hooking up this older TV to the Stream-9 if a change of cable would solve this issue.

Thanks, -dGB

[rustydoglim]

You must have a DAC connected to Stream-9. Can you connect the optical cable from the TV to your DAC directly?
Either Stream-9 can not lock to the optical signal from TV, or TV's signal is just too noisy for any DAC.

[dburna]

You must have a DAC connected to Stream-9. Can you connect the optical cable from the TV to your DAC directly?
Either Stream-9 can not lock to the optical signal from TV, or TV's signal is just too noisy for any DAC.

Yes, I have the Stream-9 connected to an outboard DAC. And yes, I cannot get a signal through to the DAC. I have a cheapo DAC that can lock on to the signal when I connect to it directly, so I know it is possible. The issue right now seems to be that the cable I have sits loosely in the Stream-9 connector. I'm betting right now that is the problem. That's why I am soliciting suggestions on a TOSlink cable that "works well" with the Stream-9.

I had a super-cheap optical cable. That connected fine to the TV, but not to any DAC I had. Finally bought a somewhat better optical cable, and that one connects to a cheapo DAC and works just fine with that DAC -- no problems from TV -> DAC. This same cable, however, sits loosely in the Stream-9 optical connection, so my working theory is that the connection is too loose to sync the signal. I bet if I can find an optical cable that connects securely to the Stream-9, I can probably get the TV to sync with the Stream-9.

The main optical cable has a slightly block-y connector. I think that prevents the optical connection from seating deep enough into the Stream-9 optical opening, therefore it sits loose. Guessing at this point I need an optical cable with a very slim connector in order to insert deeper into the streamer. Since I know the TV can sync to a DAC -- and works -- and I know this cable works, I think finding a cable that attaches securely to the Stream-9 will solve my issue. I don't think the TV is at fault here, even though it is an old TV.



Stream-9 users: what optical cables do you use (successfully)?  Thanks in advance.

-dGB

[HansSo]

Eventually, when we have our next generation Stream-9X, we will work out a way for existing customers to upgrade with minimal cost (most likely by swapping out the main board). Dealers won't be happy about this upgrade, but sometimes we will make an exception. Stream-9 sound is perfect, but the streaming service support is not the best (it doesn't have Roon Ready or Chromecast). 

Hang on a minute. Does this mean that the Stream-9 as it is now is basically obsolete? The fact that some of it's functionality had to be removed to make it (just barely) meet it's performance spec already pointed in this direction. The willingness to support current customers is appreciated (subject to the actual cost). I agree about the sound, I really like that and as I have a working situation I am not complaining. Never the less having a product going obsolete in such a short time does not feel good.

[Cykomiko]

I will arrange for it to appear on the product page, since it is Friday in Taiwan, it might be until next week.  I will post my follow up here.

Could you please let us know when the firmware is expected to appear on the product page?

[rustydoglim]

Hang on a minute. Does this mean that the Stream-9 as it is now is basically obsolete? The fact that some of it's functionality had to be removed to make it (just barely) meet it's performance spec already pointed in this direction. The willingness to support current customers is appreciated (subject to the actual cost). I agree about the sound, I really like that and as I have a working situation I am not complaining. Never the less having a product going obsolete in such a short time does not feel good.

No.
But of course, we don't "sit around and do nothing" with our development. Your thousand-dollar phone comes out with a new model every year. Car companies also come up with new car models every other year. 

[HansSo]

In reverse order :

Car companies also come up with new car models every other year.

They really don't, the "New 2023 Toyota Corolla" seems to be a mostly North American thing. Here in Europe models seems to last for a lot longer than one or two years.
But in the more than forty years I have been driving there have been many new roads opened and existing roads have changed and never have I needed the car I was driving at the time to be "updated" to drive on that new road. (basically car analogies are stupid)

Your thousand-dollar phone comes out with a new model every year.

I don't have a "thousand-dollar phone", mostly because I understand that a phone for various reasons has a limited useful life. My current phone cost 350 Euro five years ago and as long as it will run the apps I need it to run with an acceptable performance and battery life I will continue to use it.

But of course, we don't "sit around and do nothing" with our development.

Good, I would hope so.
I have a DAC-9 (which I really like) and the release of first the DAC-9SE and then the DAC-9X did not make that DAC-9 obsolete as it continues to this day to perform to the specs it was designed to.

No.

Again good.
However there is a fundamental difference between something like a DAC-9 and a STREAM-9. The DAC-9 remains useful long after the manufacturer stops supporting it. The STREAM-9 is on borrowed time as soon as the firmware that makes it function is no longer maintained. If one of the streaming services it supports changes its API(changes the road) that service is no longer available unless the firmware is updated. Same for new services(new road).
It has not escaped my notice that the product page for the STREAM-9 used to mention two streaming services that were "in development", that has now been removed from that page so I guess those services will now never be supported by the current STREAM-9. And then there is the fact that that the STREAM-9 never perfomed to spec. According to the specs it is supposed to support DLNA and streaming upto 192Khz / 24 bit. It has never been able to do that. The latest firmware only allows 192Khz / 24 bit while streaming direct from Qobuz and to enable it to do that a mayor feature (Airplay) had to be sacrificed. These things don't leave a good feeling.

Could you please let us know when the firmware is expected to appear on the product page?

I too would like to know this if only to do some test on how the latest firmware has changed SRC.

[zappan]

However there is a fundamental difference between something like a DAC-9 and a STREAM-9. The DAC-9 remains useful long after the manufacturer stops supporting it. The STREAM-9 is on borrowed time as soon as the firmware that makes it function is no longer maintained. If one of the streaming services it supports changes its API(changes the road) that service is no longer available unless the firmware is updated. Same for new services(new road).

The thing you're pointing out here is absolutely spot on. That is why companies like Roon came into existence, if the RAAT protocol won't change, and there's no reason to, the Roon Ready equipment will be working for years. The downside is the price of the Roon ecosystem (unfortunately, they don't offer a "lite" version without the music discovery and all the additional bells and whistles part which [may] carry the extra value they base their price off of).

Then there are open solutions like the UPnP and DLNA, which are rather awful by the original design; with the OpenHome extensions, they became bearable, as there are manufacturers relying on that technology and it apparently works for the local streaming from your own music server; but still for services like Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify, etc. you need to get the firmware upgrades to match the changes in their APIs. Which may make the streaming products obsolete at some point in time (unlike the DAC)

And there's also Logitech Media Server (LMS) which went from Logitech's hands into the open source realm, and there are people actively developing and maintaining that ecosytem, updating the plugins to match the changes in the streaming services. There is one HiFi manufacturer I know who based their streaming system on the LMS, plus the DIY community with Raspberry Pi and similar SBC boards.

And, finally, there are a few other attempts which didn't get much traction (DTS Play-Fi for example, Plex server tried to do something but didn't get much traction in HiFi, BluOS onboarded a few partners only...).

Overall, it's too bad that there is no, ideally open, server platform with a standard+open protocol, supported by the manufacturers to make sure it develops and keeps up to date with the streaming services. Imagine Roon being free as a "lite" version (which wouldn't even need such beefy hardware it requires today, the "lite" could run on a NAS or a RPi or a streaming-server equipment directly), or LMS being supported in that manner, or more manufacturers licensing the BluOS. Let's hope we'd get there at some point, that'd make the streamers life longevity comparable with the DACs

[rustydoglim]

Exactly and agreed.  Imagine for us manufacturers who have invested hundreds of thousands in a platform "SomethingPlay", "SomethingFi" from Qualcomm AllPlay, LinkPlay, MQA, DTS, ..... and then the platform vendors decided to shut it down (Qualcomm AllPlay) or not support it anymore.  Very painful and costly.

So a responsible and customer-caring brand like Nuprime, can decide in the worst case (when the streaming platform becomes obsolete), and offer a good deal for an upgrade (in most cases dealers don't make any profit from the upgrade).

If you don't need Roon or Chromecast, then there is no need to upgrade to Stream-9X (only after mid-2024).  The performance will be the same, except Stream-9X will cost more. But if in 2026, Qobuz decides to change the API (not likely, they haven't changed for years, but just maybe) and LinkPlay decides not to support Nuprime for the upgrade in 2026, what to do?  We can decide to offer an upgrade board for existing customers at a "rock bottom price" to migrate to whatever new platform.

Streaming products are MONEY LOSING products for Nuprime. We never made any profit from streaming products.    But we have to offer them as part of a system.