What to do: isolate or regenerate

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doctorcilantro

Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #80 on: 20 Jan 2014, 02:29 pm »
The 210V is derived from a three phase Wye Network. If you measure from Hot to Neutral it should be 210/SQRT3 = 121V. While you are there with the meter, what's the voltage between the audio and office circuit on the Neutrals and then the same for the earths. If you have anything other than zero, let's talk.
@1.5 - of note is that I discovered that 29 is the Office and 27 is Audio. If it is 3 phase, does this mean A, B, C, per each row?

If so, it means that Audio is on A, while Dishwasher is on B, and Office on C...(I had mistakenly identified another "study" breaker as the Office circuit when it was just "study lighting".)

Maybe the wiring is okay to the Audio room but the leg is bonded somewhere at the panel?

Would it be worthwhile to just swap Audio / Office at the breakers?

One and a half

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #81 on: 21 Jan 2014, 09:33 am »
@1.5 - of note is that I discovered that 29 is the Office and 27 is Audio. If it is 3 phase, does this mean A, B, C, per each row?

If so, it means that Audio is on A, while Dishwasher is on B, and Office on C...(I had mistakenly identified another "study" breaker as the Office circuit when it was just "study lighting".)

Maybe the wiring is okay to the Audio room but the leg is bonded somewhere at the panel?

Would it be worthwhile to just swap Audio / Office at the breakers?

The voltages for the Earth on circuit A, B or C should be 0.00V. The same with the Neutral, the differences in voltages must also be zero, because the neutral and earth are bonded at one point only, although looking at this install, it seems not.

Having a voltage difference could be due to your meter adding harmonics from loads which can exaggerate the reading, but lets say the effect of harmonics is out of the question for now. Take the same measurement again, this time unplugging everything.
If you have two outlets and measure the difference in neutrals, then whatever you plug in that bonds the two circuits, will yield a better connection to the neutral than the house wiring.

If say your tuner is connected to receptacle on A phase, and the amp on B phase, the neutrals not being zero volts between each other, they will find a way back to the neutral at the panel by the best path. It is then very likely that your interconnect will provide the better path, and you will hear this.

A more insidious way for the neutral to return is that there is a difference in neutral voltage on receptacles on the same line.  Once again you might plug in the audio components on two receptacles, and one has a better connection to the neutral, and this will also create hum since the better neutral current will flow through your interconnect.

Here's where to go forward:

Get the super to thoroughly go through each receptacle one by one, and clean up the connections, and at the panel. Bond the earth and neutral at the transformer, not the panel.

Obtain a double wound isolation transformer 120V/120V which will lift the neutral off the electrical system, and run your audio components from that. I would really recommend a Torus/Equitech/BPT symetrical voltage design transformer after the isolation transformer to get rid of further crud.
Speedskater poo poohs these devices and will present all sorts of evidence why they are not as effective as something else, however the audible distortion when my mac mini was running from the normal supply was very noticeable when I was too lazy to change the AC supply to the Equitech the other day. A big change. Don't care, I'm sticking to what I hear.

doctorcilantro

Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #82 on: 21 Jan 2014, 10:47 am »
The problem will be finding someone competent at "housing" to do the work. If I can make a clear case to a supervisor of a danger of fire or damage to the house, they will come in a second and wire it properly. I will do some research on how to achieve this; remember, it is my employer who provides housing and it can tough to get things looked at this closely, I'm sad to say. Can I make such a case?

1. What exactly do you mean by 'clean up the connections'? New wiring? Re-terminate and bond wires together?

The hum on my system is very low level, but I wonder if unbonding the ground and neutral in the house would improve upon this...

Right now I have a Cullen modded AC outlet > Emotiva CMX2 > PS Audio P3 using Magic Power cords and the amp and DAC are in same PS Audio outlet.

I will re-check the two circuits with everything powered down, maybe when I notice the P3 buzzing at night.

Can anyone recommend an Isolation Tranformer that is small that I could try on the DAC and amps? Total they 200 watts max. I did order a Signal DU-3 but backed out due to the 80lbs weight. Maybe I could try a smaller unit after the P3...

jea48

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #83 on: 21 Jan 2014, 05:01 pm »
The voltages for the Earth on circuit A, B or C should be 0.00V. The same with the Neutral, the differences in voltages must also be zero, because the neutral and earth are bonded at one point only, although looking at this install, it seems not.

Having a voltage difference could be due to your meter adding harmonics from loads which can exaggerate the reading, but lets say the effect of harmonics is out of the question for now. Take the same measurement again, this time unplugging everything.
If you have two outlets and measure the difference in neutrals, then whatever you plug in that bonds the two circuits, will yield a better connection to the neutral than the house wiring.

If say your tuner is connected to receptacle on A phase, and the amp on B phase, the neutrals not being zero volts between each other, they will find a way back to the neutral at the panel by the best path. It is then very likely that your interconnect will provide the better path, and you will hear this.

A more insidious way for the neutral to return is that there is a difference in neutral voltage on receptacles on the same line.  Once again you might plug in the audio components on two receptacles, and one has a better connection to the neutral, and this will also create hum since the better neutral current will flow through your interconnect.

Here's where to go forward:

Get the super to thoroughly go through each receptacle one by one, and clean up the connections, and at the panel. Bond the earth and neutral at the transformer, not the panel.

Obtain a double wound isolation transformer 120V/120V which will lift the neutral off the electrical system, and run your audio components from that. I would really recommend a Torus/Equitech/BPT symetrical voltage design transformer after the isolation transformer to get rid of further crud.
Speedskater poo poohs these devices and will present all sorts of evidence why they are not as effective as something else, however the audible distortion when my mac mini was running from the normal supply was very noticeable when I was too lazy to change the AC supply to the Equitech the other day. A big change. Don't care, I'm sticking to what I hear.

The voltages for the Earth on circuit A, B or C should be 0.00V. The same with the Neutral, the differences in voltages must also be zero, because the neutral and earth are bonded at one point only, although looking at this install, it seems not.


Not necessarily. Load and  VD, voltage drop, on the branch circuit could be the reason.

As for the service neutral conductor / earth /equipment enclosure/ equipment ground be bonded at only one location at the main electrical service of the building we do not know that it is not.

Obtain a double wound isolation transformer 120V/120V which will lift the neutral off the electrical system, and run your audio components from that. I would really recommend a Torus/Equitech/BPT symetrical voltage design transformer after the isolation transformer to get rid of further crud.


I do agree an isolation transformer in the OPs case could very well solve his problem provided all his audio equipment that is connected together by ICs would be fed from the transformer.

Obtain a double wound isolation transformer 120V/120V which will lift the neutral off the electrical system,

Surely you are not implying to let both output leads of the secondary winding to float above ground?  If that is what you are saying it would be dangerous. By Code the separately derived AC power system must be wired as a grounded AC power system. One lead of the 120V secondary winding shall be intentionally connected to earth and become the “Grounded Conductor”, the neutral conductor. The bonding to earth shall be made at any point on the grounding electrode system of the main electrical service.

The OP cannot create an "Isolated Power System" for his audio equipment. Electrical  Codes are strict where they can be used.  Example, for the USA it would be NEC  517.160  Isolated Power systems.  I would bet even in the ME Isolated Power Systems are limited where they can be used.
 


« Last Edit: 21 Jan 2014, 06:33 pm by jea48 »

jea48

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #84 on: 21 Jan 2014, 05:38 pm »
The problem will be finding someone competent at "housing" to do the work. If I can make a clear case to a supervisor of a danger of fire or damage to the house, they will come in a second and wire it properly. I will do some research on how to achieve this; remember, it is my employer who provides housing and it can tough to get things looked at this closely, I'm sad to say. Can I make such a case?

1. What exactly do you mean by 'clean up the connections'? New wiring? Re-terminate and bond wires together?

The hum on my system is very low level, but I wonder if unbonding the ground and neutral in the house would improve upon this...

Right now I have a Cullen modded AC outlet > Emotiva CMX2 > PS Audio P3 using Magic Power cords and the amp and DAC are in same PS Audio outlet.

I will re-check the two circuits with everything powered down, maybe when I notice the P3 buzzing at night.

Can anyone recommend an Isolation Tranformer that is small that I could try on the DAC and amps? Total they 200 watts max. I did order a Signal DU-3 but backed out due to the 80lbs weight. Maybe I could try a smaller unit after the P3...

, but I wonder if unbonding the ground and neutral in the house would improve upon this...

NO!! Only a qualified electrician can make that decision.  If the original wiring was installed per NEC USA code there is a good chance only 4 wires feed the building from the utility power transformer.
* Three hot conductors, A, B, and C.
* One neutral conductor.
3 Phase 4 wire WYE.   

Going from memory looking at your picture of the feeder conduit in the bottom left side of the electrical panel I only saw 4 insulated conductors. 3 Hots and the Neutral. No equipment grounding conductor installed with the feeder conductors.

How about a picture of the transformer or transformers that is feeding your house.
Are there three separate transformers mounted up on a power pole? Is the feed to the building overhead? How about some more pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words.

If I can make a clear case to a supervisor of a danger of fire or damage to the house, they will come in a second and wire it properly.

Just because you have a low level hum does not mean the building is not wired properly.

I will re-check the two circuits with everything powered down, maybe when I notice the P3 buzzing at night.

Save me the trouble of rereading all the thread again, what is the P3?

P3  only buzzes at night? What type of lighting do you have? Using any dimmers? Any low voltage lighting?

Does your multi meter measure AC frequency? If so check the frequency at any electrical receptacle. Is it 50Hz or 60Hz?

« Last Edit: 21 Jan 2014, 06:56 pm by jea48 »

One and a half

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #85 on: 22 Jan 2014, 09:43 am »

Obtain a double wound isolation transformer 120V/120V which will lift the neutral off the electrical system,

Surely you are not implying to let both output leads of the secondary winding to float above ground?  If that is what you are saying it would be dangerous. By Code the separately derived AC power system must be wired as a grounded AC power system. One lead of the 120V secondary winding shall be intentionally connected to earth and become the “Grounded Conductor”, the neutral conductor. The bonding to earth shall be made at any point on the grounding electrode system of the main electrical service.

One thing at a time. The secondary circuit of the isolation transformer can be protected by GFCI/RCD, 20mA sensitivity is fine. Any shorts to a ground, or leaks will cause the RCD to trip safely. In the case of the symmetrical power, GFCI/RCD is mandatory. It's about time your NEC caught up with the rest of the planet, by installing mandatory GFCI/RCD for all domestic and lighting circuits, not just bathrooms.

Anyway, NEC rules do not apply in foreign countries, it's not legislated. Here are some examples of differences between say Euro norms and NEC.

Earthing - NEC practices allows an earthing cable to be attached to a metal frame to earth apparatus, even if the frame is secured with fasteners. Prohibited in EU, the earthing conductor can only do the same if the frame is a fully welded construction, or the earth is obtained on the same connection rail as the incoming earthing conductor.
Flexible conduit can use the sheath as an earth conductor. Prohibited in EU, earthing conductors must be provided.
This always confuses, Black Hot, White Neutral, Black is a phase colour in portable cabling only. In fixed installations, it's the neutral. White is also a phase colour.

jea48

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #86 on: 22 Jan 2014, 03:15 pm »
One thing at a time. The secondary circuit of the isolation transformer can be protected by GFCI/RCD, 20mA sensitivity is fine. Any shorts to a ground, or leaks will cause the RCD to trip safely. In the case of the symmetrical power, GFCI/RCD is mandatory. It's about time your NEC caught up with the rest of the planet, by installing mandatory GFCI/RCD for all domestic and lighting circuits, not just bathrooms.

Anyway, NEC rules do not apply in foreign countries, it's not legislated. Here are some examples of differences between say Euro norms and NEC.

Earthing - NEC practices allows an earthing cable to be attached to a metal frame to earth apparatus, even if the frame is secured with fasteners. Prohibited in EU, the earthing conductor can only do the same if the frame is a fully welded construction, or the earth is obtained on the same connection rail as the incoming earthing conductor.
Flexible conduit can use the sheath as an earth conductor. Prohibited in EU, earthing conductors must be provided.
This always confuses, Black Hot, White Neutral, Black is a phase colour in portable cabling only. In fixed installations, it's the neutral. White is also a phase colour.

One thing at a time. The secondary circuit of the isolation transformer can be protected by GFCI/RCD, 20mA sensitivity is fine. Any shorts to a ground, or leaks will cause the RCD to trip safely.

If the secondary is floating above ground there is no reference to ground. A GFCI would be worthless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

 In the case of the symmetrical power, GFCI/RCD is mandatory. It's about time your NEC caught up with the rest of the planet, by installing mandatory GFCI/RCD for all domestic and lighting circuits, not just bathrooms.

You should brush up on your NEC Code. GFCI protection in areas other than bathrooms in a dwelling unit has been required by NEC for decades.

AFCI branch circuit protection for bedroom branch circuits was first required in 2002. NEC 2008 expanded the requirement for locations of AFCI protection for 120V 15 and 20 amp branch circuits in all habitable areas in a dwelling unit with the exception of bathroom receptacles, which are required to be GFCI protected, and Kitchen receptacles, which are required to be GFCI protected.
Another safety requirement of NEC 2008 is Child Safety tamper resistant receptacles shall be installed in all habitable areas of a dwelling unit.

I have not read the latest edition of NEC 2014 but I have heard ALL 120V 15 and 20 amp branch circuits in a dwelling unit shall be AFCI protected. GFCI protection is still required as well in areas required by NEC 2011 Code. NEC 2014 Code may have even expanded that.

Anyway, NEC rules do not apply in foreign countries, it's not legislated. Here are some examples of differences between say Euro norms and NEC.

In the case of where the OP is living you nor I know who has jurisdiction. If the Base is a US installation the host country more than likely has no say on building codes.

As for grounding in general, when it comes to NEC Code, in the USA I suggest you brush up on what you think you know.
Jim

Speedskater

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #87 on: 22 Jan 2014, 06:19 pm »
If the secondary is floating above ground there is no reference to ground. A GFCI would be worthless.

A GFCI does not require a Safety Ground (EGC) reference! The GFCI only examines the current in the Send and Return wires, if these are not equal (5ma) then the unit trips.

As a matter of fact, GFCI's are often used in older homes that only have two wire circuits (no Safety Ground wire).  In this case there is some fine print.

jea48

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #88 on: 22 Jan 2014, 08:14 pm »
If the secondary is floating above ground there is no reference to ground. A GFCI would be worthless.

A GFCI does not require a Safety Ground (EGC) reference! The GFCI only examines the current in the Send and Return wires, if these are not equal (5ma) then the unit trips.

As a matter of fact, GFCI's are often used in older homes that only have two wire circuits (no Safety Ground wire).  In this case there is some fine print.
Hi Speedskater,

True an equipment ground is not needed for a  GFCI to operate. True NEC allows an old two wire receptacle to be replaced with a GFI receptacle.

 How does the GFI trip open in the event of around a 5 ma current  flow of current to an earth grounded object? Answer because the AC power system is a grounded system. One conductor of the 2 wire branch circuit is connected the GFI receptacle is the Hot Ungrounded Conductor and the other conductor connected to the neutral side of the GFI receptacle is the neutral, the Grounded Conductor. Though an equipment grounding conductor is not involved, the grounded system neutral is. The grounded neutral is the reference needed for the GFI receptacle to sense the imbalance.

 In the case of a 120V floating AC power system  there is not any reference to ground what so ever.

Don't take my word for it. If you have an isolation transformer to experiment with just float the secondary and connect the two  ungrounded 120V leads up to a GFI receptacle. Simulate a human body, with a test lead from either contact  of the receptacle to ground. The GFI will not trip open.

If you read NEC 517 - VII.  Isolated Power Systems.
 517.160  (B) (1) you will find Code requires a "Line  Isolation Monitor" to be connected to the secondary winding of the ISO Xfmr. In the case where the Isolated Power System is used in a hospital, example a CATH Lab, the monitor sounds an audible alarm, lights a warning light, and a meter shows the amount of leakage current in mA warning the Doctor and staff a 5mA current leakage to ground has occurred.
« Last Edit: 23 Jan 2014, 12:11 am by jea48 »

Speedskater

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #89 on: 23 Jan 2014, 01:15 am »
The GFCI does not need or use a external reference.  It is only aware of the current in the Send and Return wires. As long as these two currents are about equal the GFCI is happy.  In any case, current is not interested in going to the ground or into the dirt,  it is only interested in getting back ti it's source which is that big power company transformer outside.

Note  the scope of Article 517:
517.1 Scope. The provisions of this article shall apply to
electrical construction and installation criteria in health care
facilities that provide services to human beings.

Article 517 building follow a very different set of rules and wiring practices than do residential building.

jea48

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #90 on: 23 Jan 2014, 02:59 am »
The GFCI does not need or use a external reference.  It is only aware of the current in the Send and Return wires. As long as these two currents are about equal the GFCI is happy.  In any case, current is not interested in going to the ground or into the dirt,  it is only interested in getting back ti it's source which is that big power company transformer outside.

Note  the scope of Article 517:
517.1 Scope. The provisions of this article shall apply to
electrical construction and installation criteria in health care
facilities that provide services to human beings.

Article 517 building follow a very different set of rules and wiring practices than do residential building.

 In this case Earth has nothing to do with the operation of the GFCI. The grounded service neutral does on the other hand. You speak of an imbalance on the send and return wires. Explain how an imbalance can exist without a reference for fault current to flow to create the imbalance.

I actually did a bench test after my post responding to yours. I connected a GFI receptacle to the floating ungrounded leads of the secondary of a 120V isolation transformer.
 
First test.
 I pushed the test button. The GFI did not trip open.
Edit 1/23/14. The result of that test has me scratching my head.
***EDIT 2/3/14. I should of double check this part of the bench test before posting. Reran the test and the test button on the GFI receptacle does trip the device open as it should. My only defense I was in a hurry, leaving town, and should of double checked before posting. MY BAD!

Second test.
 I temporarily connected a  jumper wire  from one  contact of the GFI receptacle to the equipment ground of the grounded 120V receptacle I plugged the primary of ISO xfmr into. Again the GFI did not trip open.
EDIT 1/23/14. For this test I did not push the test button.

Third test.
I then moved the jumper to the other contact of the GFI receptacle to the equipment ground of the  grounded receptacle. Again the GFI did not trip open.
EDIT 1/23/14. For this test I did not push the test button.

Why? Because there is not a reference , completed circuit, for a current flow. There is not a difference of potential from the floating secondary of the ISO to the equipment ground of the grounded wall receptacle that is tied to the main service neutral of the AC Grounded Power System. Again mother earth has nothing  to do with it.

Now if the GFI receptacle was on the outside of a house and it was connected to a grounded 2 wire branch circuit, (hot and neutral conductor), and say a faulty device was plugged into the GFI and a person was holding the faulty device standing in wet grass in his bare feet the imbalance you speak of would then exist.  First a difference of potential will exist from the faulty device and mother earth. Why? Because the service neutral conductor is connected to earth through the grounding electrode system.
We have a completed circuit for current to flow.  From the metal of the faulty device >  through the body of the person out through his feet >  through the earth to the service neutral conductor  of the power source. Hopefully the GFI receptacle will trip open if more than 5mA to 7mA of current flows through the body of the person.


Note  the scope of Article 517:
517.1 Scope. The provisions of this article shall apply to
electrical construction and installation criteria in health care
facilities that provide services to human beings.

Article 517 building follow a very different set of rules and wiring practices than do residential building.

Speedskater, I only mentioned Article 517 to show it is a violation of NEC Code to float the secondary of an ISO Xfmr for power in a residential dwelling unit. By Code one lead of the secondary winding shall be intentionally connected to earth. In this case the grounding electrode system of the main electrical service of the dwelling unit. The new separately derived power system then becomes an AC grounded power system.
Jim

« Last Edit: 3 Feb 2014, 03:01 pm by jea48 »

Speedskater

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #91 on: 23 Jan 2014, 04:13 pm »
Look at it this way, a typical home has a single phase 240V (120/120) service. If the GFCI circuit is connected to the 'A' leg/pole (aka phase) and it's Hot 120V wire leaks to the 'B' leg's Hot 120V. There will be leakage current (after all these two Hots are 240 Volts apart) so the GFCI will trip.

jea48

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #92 on: 23 Jan 2014, 05:04 pm »
Look at it this way, a typical home has a single phase 240V (120/120) service. If the GFCI circuit is connected to the 'A' leg/pole (aka phase) and it's Hot 120V wire leaks to the 'B' leg's Hot 120V. There will be leakage current (after all these two Hots are 240 Volts apart) so the GFCI will trip.

If the GFCI circuit is connected to the 'A' leg/pole (aka phase) and it's Hot 120V wire leaks to the 'B' leg's Hot 120V. There will be leakage current (after all these two Hots are 240 Volts apart) so the GFCI will trip.

You do know a GFCI does not protect human life from electrical shock if the person's body is placed between a Line to Line situation.  In other words, if a person grabs onto one line with one hand and the other line with the other hand of a GFCI protected circuit the person will receive a lethal electrical shock.

Please remember this thread got sidetracked when a member said a GFCI would provide protection on a floating AC 120V separately derived power system. My attempt has been to inform readers it just ain't so.
 
Floating the secondary of an ISO power transformer could prove to be dangerous in a non-qualified non-professional setting. Especially if a Line Isolation Monitor is not used. Again a GFI receptacle will not add any protection what so ever.  It will just be a duplex receptacle connected to the 2 hot legs of the 120V Isolated Power System.
Jim   




« Last Edit: 23 Jan 2014, 06:27 pm by jea48 »

Occam

Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #93 on: 23 Jan 2014, 06:51 pm »


FWIW

jea48

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #94 on: 23 Jan 2014, 07:34 pm »
However, a GFCI doesn't give you a license to be careless. Severe electric shock or death can occur if you touch the hot and neutral conductors in a GFCI-protected circuit at the same time because the current transformer within the protection device won't sense an imbalance between the departing and returning current and the switching contacts will remain closed.
http://ecmweb.com/content/how-gfcis-work



The GFCI will not protect you from line contact hazards (i.e. a person holding two "hot" wires, a hot and a neutral wire in each hand, or contacting an overhead power line).
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/electrical_incidents/gfci.html

Jim

Speedskater

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #95 on: 24 Jan 2014, 12:38 am »
My original statement was:

A GFCI does not require a Safety Ground (EGC) reference! The GFCI only examines the current in the Send and Return wires, if these are not equal (5ma) then the unit trips.

Just how is that statement incorrect?

***************************************************
from your first link:

 Don't let the name confuse you — these devices will operate on a circuit that does not have an equipment-grounding conductor.

One and a half

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #96 on: 24 Jan 2014, 08:41 am »
Thank you Occam for the drawing.

To Jea48

As for the service neutral conductor / earth /equipment enclosure/ equipment ground be bonded at only one location at the main electrical service of the building we do not know that it is not.

Please refer to the photo from the OP, it clearly shows the neutral conductor being bonded to discoloured copper cables, which eventually end up on the metal conduits. The neutral in then bonded to earth, not in a manner that's normal, surely.

Another point of using GFCI/RCD is that if the earth conductor is broken on say a toaster or an appliance outside, if someone touches the live portion of the appliance while say touching a tap/faucet, the GFCI will trip.

In your first test, if you wired the device correctly, the GFCI should have tripped. If it didn't, it's great you found a dud. The RCD is supposed to trip since it artificially creates an imbalance of current around the CT, rather than through it. 

One and a half

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Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #97 on: 24 Jan 2014, 08:44 am »
My original statement was:

A GFCI does not require a Safety Ground (EGC) reference! The GFCI only examines the current in the Send and Return wires, if these are not equal (5ma) then the unit trips.

Just how is that statement incorrect?

***************************************************
from your first link:

 Don't let the name confuse you — these devices will operate on a circuit that does not have an equipment-grounding conductor.

Agreed, GFCI can be used on floating supplies. To Jea48, how then are delta/delta transformers protected, since there is no common star point?

doctorcilantro

Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #98 on: 27 Jan 2014, 06:59 pm »
The 210V is derived from a three phase Wye Network. If you measure from Hot to Neutral it should be 210/SQRT3 = 121V. While you are there with the meter, what's the voltage between the audio and office circuit on the Neutrals and then the same for the earths. If you have anything other than zero, let's talk.

Panel coming off tomorrow for more pics and breaker swap as a test.

1.5, I'm interested in your comments and why you differ with jea84 on the neutral to ground at the box.

Quote
"This leads to all sorts of questions. The straight bare copper wires that run horizontally parallel quite neatly are earth wires, one of them bottom RH corner is a green, assume the rest are earth wires. They terminate on corroded screw terminals directly on the chassis. The brown wires are they bare cables then, yes, earth wires. Whether they bond pipes or are in themselves earthing conductors, should nowhere be connected to the neutral"

Still waiting for more answers here but hope to hear back from someone soon.

doctorcilantro

Re: What to do: isolate or regenerate
« Reply #99 on: 28 Jan 2014, 08:02 am »
Switched the Audio circuit to what seemed to be the quiet power leg, Office, earlier this morning. I'll check on it over the next 24 hours.

Last year, my subwoofer blew a small capacitor inside. It is the 250w Dayton plate amp that Louis uses in his Deep Hemp subwoofer. It was on a power strip and the fuse did not blow. It started making RF static sounds, and when powered down made burping pulsing electric noise and woofer pumps. I opened it today and did not see a bad or blown cap. I do have a backup, a third Dayton plate amp, that I will test as I suspect the DC has been the culprit.

Last night the P3 and the CMX-2 were really buzzing along!

Looks like 3phase as a few of you derived from my non-comprehensive pics, thanks for the assist here, and fingers crossed: