New finishing system

jsalk · « **on:** 12 Mar 2006, 02:41 am »

Life is a continuous learning process. And last week was a huge learning opportunity to me.

A high-end, custom furniture builder offered to introduce me to a new finishing system that is about the finest available world-wide. It is used by many of the world's very finest furniture manufacturers.

Yesterday we finished the first set of speakers using this new system and the results were extremely gratifying. These new finish materials result in a new level of finish quality - one we have never obtained before.

Not that long ago, we hand-applied finish with fairly good results. But it took weeks to apply finish to cabinets. We then started spraying lacquer and the quality rose accordingly while the time was reduced to about a week.

These new finishing materials are far more complicated to use, but will allow us to produce a far superior, more durable finish in just 2 - 3 days. What's more, the finish will not yellow with age, is rock hard and water will not harm it (try setting a wet glass on a lacquer finish - it will leave a ring - not so with these new materials).

These materials are three times as expensive as those we have used to date. That is why only very high end furniture manufacturers use them. But we feel the time savings and increased finish quality more than make up for the increased cost.

We are very excited about this new (to us) finishing system. While you will obviously not hear the difference, you will see it.

- Jim

Christof · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Mar 2006, 03:07 am »

Give me a clue? Can you spray it without having fear of blowing the roof off your shop? Does it involve a vinyl seal?

shokunin · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Mar 2006, 03:10 am »

sounds like you're moving away from solvent based to water based? Is it pre-catalyzed wb conversion varnish like an Emtech or Oxford by Target or some other high tech Acrylic?

Finishing is always one of those nerve racking moments, all the work you've done on a woodworking can get royally screwed by applying the wrong finish or applying it incorrectly. I remember trying to brush shellac.. looked horrible, now I mostly spray with a pressure pot and a LVLP gun.

jsalk · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Mar 2006, 03:34 am »

Christof -

This is probably all old hat to you. But there are a wide range of materials in the system. They are manufactured by ICA in Italy.

Some of them, like polyester, are downright dangerous to use. You need to mix three chemicals in a certain order. Mix them wrong and you get a toxic explosion.

Needless to say, I will not be using this anytime soon. But the other materials are pretty awesome as well.

With the sanding sealer I was using, I had to sand between coats and although it wasn't that hard to sand out, it wasn't exactly easy. With this system, following a strict regimen, I can spray as many coats as needed to fill the grain (and it builds quite fast). The next day, it sands like butter and I can apply any topcoat I prefer. It is also crystal clear so the woods really come alive.

Like I said, this is probably old hat to a pro like you. But for me, it has been a great learning experience and will take my finishing skills to a whole new level.

This all started as a hobby for me. But it has been an incredible learning experience and lessons like these will make it even more enjoyable.

- Jim

jsalk · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Mar 2006, 03:50 am »

shokunin -

No, these are not water-based, although I understand that ICA also offers them as well. The materials I learned to use last week are all solvent- based, post-catalized materials and are quite expensive compared to anything I have used before. But so far I am very impressed by the results.

Today I rubbed out some cabinets to a high-gloss finish. Although I have rubbed out NC lacquer and pre-cat lacquer in the past, I was never able to get a finish quite as good as this. It is just like glass - crystal clear, hard as a rock and will not yellow with age.

- Jim

Christof · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Mar 2006, 04:10 am »

It is neat to see someone who loves and respects woodworking as much as you do, Jim. I think Nakashima said, "...wood has soul, I live to give it life again".

EProvenzano · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Mar 2006, 04:34 am »

Congratz on what looks to be a great find.
Question though:

Quote from: jsalk

will not yellow with age, is rock hard and water will not harm it (try setting a wet glass on a lacquer finish - it will leave a ring ...

I'm in the final stages of preparing a kitchen table for top coat. I have made the decision to use a pre-cat lacquer recommended by a furniture manufacturer. I understood that about the only thing that pre-cat lacquer is susceptible to is steam or a very hot pot (forming steam) placed on it's surface.
Needless to say I'll be very disappointed if a wet glass or plate will mar this big project. The table top will be my first endeavor with Lacquer. I always thought that the finest dining room tables were finished with pre-cat laquer.

Have I made a bad choice?

Thanks.

jsalk · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Mar 2006, 04:44 am »

EProvenzano -

I would love to answer your question, but I really don't know. With speakers, it really isn't an issue. I have had good luck with pre-cat lacquer when applied properly. I think it is a better choice than NC lacquer. But I'm not really an expert when it comes to water damage avoidence. Perhaps Chirstof or someone else may have an answer for you.

All I know for certain, is that it is not an issue with the finishes I will now be using.

- Jim

texas steve · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Mar 2006, 02:40 pm »

Quote from: jsalk

shokunin -

Today I rubbed out some cabinets to a high-gloss finish. Although I have rubbed out NC lacquer and pre-cat lacquer in the past, I was never able to get a finish quite as good as this. It is just like glass - crystal clear, hard as a rock and will not yellow with age.

- Jim

Jim, are these my speakers? Sounds interesting!

jsalk · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Mar 2006, 03:16 pm »

Steve -

No, these were not yours. But I am using the same system on yours and they will be the next I rub out.

Your cabinets are finished with the veneering stage. This week they will get the dye, sealer coats and finish coats. Next week they will be rubbed out.

- Jim

texas steve · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Mar 2006, 04:00 pm »

Quote from: jsalk

Steve -

No, these were not yours. But I am using the same system on yours and they will be the next I rub out.

Your cabinets are finished with the veneering stage. This week they will get the dye, sealer coats and finish coats. Next week they will be rubbed out.

- Jim

Iim thanks. I know there have been comments about dyed black vs Mahogany or other types of wood. But as you know, when done right, the beauty of the grain and finish can be equally beautiful with black. Your "artistry" (and of course the sound) is why I'm buying from you. Im realy looking forward to the final result.

Tim S · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 01:34 pm »

Quote from: jsalk

Next week they will be rubbed out.

You must not live in New Jersey as that phrase seems to have a very different meaning there at least when used by folks in the "waste disposal" business. . .

Tim

jsalk · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 01:44 pm »

Tim -

Sometimes after "rubbing out" lacquer, my arms are so tired I feel like I should use the other meaning.

- Jim

Quote from: Tim S

Quote from: jsalk
Next week they will be rubbed out.

You must not live in New Jersey as that phrase seems to have a very different meaning there at least when used by folks in the "waste disposal" business. . .

Tim

skrivis · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 03:00 pm »

Quote from: texas steve

Quote from: jsalk
Steve -

No, these were not yours. But I am using the same system on yours and they will be the next I rub out.

Your cabinets are finished with the veneering stage. This week they will get the dye, sealer coats and finish coats. Next week they will be rubbed out.

- Jim

Iim thanks. I know there have been comments about dyed black vs Mahogany or other types of wood. But as you know, when done right, the beauty of the grain and finish can be equally beautiful with blac ...

My Dad and I played with some water-based aniline dyes at one point. You could get some really neat colors, yet still see the grain. I spilled some on myself when I was mixing it up and I was red for a while.

jholtz · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 03:38 pm »

Quote from: jsalk

shokunin -

No, these are not water-based, although I understand that ICA also offers them as well. The materials I learned to use last week are all solvent- based, post-catalized materials and are quite expensive compared to anything I have used before. But so far I am very impressed by the results.

Today I rubbed out some cabinets to a high-gloss finish. Although I have rubbed out NC lacquer and pre-cat lacquer in the past, I was never able to get a finish quite as good as this. It is just like glass - crystal clear, hard as a rock and will not yellow with age.

- Jim

Hi Jim,

Here's a link to a product called Crystalac that was recommended to me. I found it to be very impressive with the clearest, hardest finish I've ever seen. Since you're experimenting a bit, check it out.

Jim

http://www.crystalac.com/products.htm

skrivis · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 04:34 pm »

Quote from: jholtz

Hi Jim,

Here's a link to a product called Crystalac that was recommended to me. I found it to be very impressive with the clearest, hardest finish I've ever seen. Since you're experimenting a bit, check it out.

Jim

http://www.crystalac.com/products.htm

If it's as good as they say, they have a lot of interesting stuff.

I can also recommend products from Behlen Bros. (http://www.hbehlen.com) Everything of theirs I've used has been good quality.

Q · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 05:49 pm »

[/quote]"Here's a link to a product called Crystalac that was recommended to me. I found it to be very impressive with the clearest, hardest finish I've ever seen. Since you're experimenting a bit, check it out.

Jim

http://www.crystalac.com/products.htm[/quote]

Perhaps My baby crib that I chewed on as a child was coated with the crystalac product called "Retardant"...this would explain a lot

jholtz · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 06:47 pm »

Quote from: skrivis

Quote from: jholtz
Hi Jim,

Here's a link to a product called Crystalac that was recommended to me. I found it to be very impressive with the clearest, hardest finish I've ever seen. Since you're experimenting a bit, check it out.

Jim

http://www.crystalac.com/products.htm

If it's as good as they say, they have a lot of interesting stuff.

I can also recommend products from Behlen Bros. (http://www.hbehlen.com) Everything of theirs I've used has been good quality.

If you Google it, you'll find a lot of links using it on guitars and toys. I liked it well enough to order a gallon. I'd love to see what Jim could do with it. He is a true craftsman. I am not.

My projects even look professional using Crystalac so it's got to be good.

Jim

Pelallito · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 10:27 pm »

Jim,
Are they my speakers?
Pelallito

texas steve · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 10:59 pm »

Quote from: Pelallito

Jim,
Are they my speakers?
Pelallito

I think EVERYONE with speakers in the making is asking! We all must be waiting with bated breath!