[mbarnes]

Most people know that I am now associated with another company called NorhTec. NorhTec is a seperate company but we share some resources between
                      the two companies.

                      I have been critisized on many websites for being a computer guy. Several posts on Audio Asylum poked fun at me saying that because I have a background
                      in computing, that somehow disqualified me to do audio.

                      For the past year, I have been spliting my time trying to come up with functional designs for computers as well as trying to refresh nOrh with new products.
                      Last year, we introduced 14 new products.

                      One of the goals I have had is that as we get smarter, we should be able to do things better and for less money.

                      NorhTec is focused on building, energy efficient, small and silent computers. In order to do this, we had to develop our own cases, power supplies and heat
                      sinks. My logic at the time was that we build audio cases, heatsinks and power supplies now, we should be able to do the same for computers.

                      One of our best achievements is a 85% efficient switching power supply that does not require a fan.

                      As we picked up clients for our computers, we also picked up contract work for audio. We have been bidding on projects to deliver thousands of
                      loudspeakers and thousands of amplifiers.

                      These large quantities have opened up new a whole new world for us in terms of what we can achieve and what we can do.

                      We had a very challenging project to build a very high quality multi media system. The requirement was for over 4000 sets. We had to compete against
                      several other companies. Our design was to use a 2.1 amplifier. The amplifier used a 400 V/A switching power supply. The left and right channel are powered
                      by a 30 watt per channel RMS CLASS AB amplifier while a 80 watt RMS CLASS D amplifier drives the subwoofer. The satelites speakers are a 1.91 liter version
                      of the nOrh 3.0. The cabinet is made in the shape of a box speaker but inside the box is divided into two folded prisms. The -3dB point is 200 hz. The
                      subwoofer blends with the satelite speakers and had a -3 dB at 50 hz. The subwoofer is a very new 6.5 inch woofer that can handle up to 120 watts.

                      The sound of the system is amazing. We were required to produce up to 109 dB with the system. The drivers blew out at 112. Actually only one blew out.

                      I believe we have designed and built the finest multi media system in the world. Our target price will be $219.00 USD for the entire set.

                      We are also asked to bid a very complex audio systems which had us drive multiple drivers for musical insturments. We proposed a new generation of the
                      Multiamp to handle this requirement. The new version is 150 watts per channel. it has a 800 V/A switching power supply. It uses a JFET input and a CLASS
                      AB Bipolar output. The system has no negative feedback and uses DC servos. We have included a balance input.

                      The system includes an active crossover with 2000, 2500, 3000, and 3500 Hz. The new unit will also include a bridge mode. Our estimate is that the unit will
                      have 300 watts bridged.

                      Finally, we are looing at a follow on for Le Amp which we will call Le Amp 2. Le Amp 2 uses a 800 V/A switching power supply. With two channels, you now
                      have 1600 V/A of power. However, because it is a switching power supply, the power is more efficient, faster, has more bandwidth and is more consistant.

                      The power supply could have been built three years ago but the cost of components would be 10 times more expensive.

                      Le Amp 2 will autiomatically go into standby mode when there is no input signal. There is no negative feedback and the amplifier uses DC servo control. The
                      amplifier is protected from heat and short. There is a delay when the system is turned on until the signal comes up.

                      The gain stage for Le Amp 2 is a CLASS A JFET (Toshiba). The output stage is Bipolar (Toshiba). The bandwidth for the output devices is 3 Mhz.


                      The amplifier will have both RCA and Balanced inputs.

                      Le Amp 2 is rated at 180 watts into 8 ohms, 350 watts into 4 ohms and 600 watts into 2 ohms.

                      We have working prototypes completed but we need to build the cases.

                      The price for Le Amp 2 will be $495.00 per pair with shipping from the US paid by the customer (about $50.00 per pair).

                      We will have an introductory special on Le Amp 2 as we did for Le Amp. Le Amp 2 will be introduced at $400 per pair (shipping paid by the customer either
                      from the US or Bangkok).

[Xi-Trum]

What is the gain of the Le Amp 2?  (The original Le Amp has a gain of 26dB, which I think is too low for use with passive preamp)  Since you already have a prototype, can you comment on the sound of the LA2 versus the original LA?  Thanks.

[TheChairGuy]

Wow, Michael, that is quite huge news for Norh.

Quite interested in both/either new MultiAmp (any idea of cost or timing?) and Le Amp2.

I think it's great that you can only live on 3 hours sleep per night  

[azryan]

I'd also like to know more about the Le Amp2. Sounds GREAT!

Is Curt Wishman of IRD the designer as he was for the original Le Amp?

Would you say the Le Amp 2 is better sounding or basically the same and just more power for less money (which I guess would be enough in itself)?

You mentioned Class A JFET input stage and no feedback.

That sounds like this amp is reaching for even higher end territory than the original, but I don't really know that much about the technical details of amp design.

Could you explain the benefit of these a bit?

Also,

What are you working on for looks? Similar to the original or something new?

You mentioned you're still working on getting cases made so sounds like it's not just going into the original Le Amp case.

Will the switching power supply make the Le Amp2 smaller?

And is there going to be a pre/order list?

[mbarnes]

The new products are based around OEM deals we got based on NorhTec computer projects.  We were asked to build products very quickly using switching power supplies.  We are building a number of switching power supplies for our computers so we now have that capability.

In order to get these contracts, we had a very short time to produce working protototypes.  Obviously, we wanted to bid products that would fit into nOrh's products.

Had the requirements been 100 watts with a standard power supply, then we could bid our existing products. Instead, we were required to bid an 800 V/A switching power supply with 150 watts.  

We had 30 days to produce a prototype and of course, we had to use our own money to build the prototypes.  

The prices that we had to offer to get the projects was very low.  However, any large deal is good because it gets you the quantities you need to get your costs down.

The case will be very different than the standard Le Amp. The new unit produces a lot of heat. The input stage is CLASS A and the output stage is 180 watts RMS. The output rails for the switching power supply is 67 volts.  These are monster amps.

The style is very much like monster amps but smaller.  There will be huge heatsinks on the sides and the cover tops will fit over the large heat sinks.  The front will be a titanium finish similar to the Palm Pilot Vx or m515 or Titanium.

Instead of a LED, we will have a backlit acrylic screen. When you turn on the unit, only the letters Le Amp 2 and 180 watts will light up.

The unit will be designed so that anyone can fix the unit themselves.  The power supply is a complete modules.  There will be status LEDs inside that detect where the fault is (like on some PCs).  The user will know if the Power supply is bad or the output stage is bad.  The user simply unplugs the bad module and swaps it out.  

We hope to have finished units at the Ohio show.  

We are also working on a device that I came up with that will allow a comptuer to work with amplifiers without a preamp.

The device plugs into the audio output port of your sound card.  The device takes the very small output from the sound card and ups it to 6 volts using a high quality op amp. The output is via standard RCA jacks instead of the mini stereo plug. There is an electronic crossover for a subwoofer and a headphone jack.

[azryan]

So the Le Amp two was designed in only a month, and you would've submitted the original Le Amp instead if you could've?

Is the Le Amp 2 designed to replace the Le Amp?

Is the Le Amp 2 meant to be an audiophile amp like the original Le Amp?

Judging by the name it seems like it's meant to be a cheaper more powerful yet as good or better sounding version of the original Le Amp, but your description never mentions sound quality and it seems like this was just meant to be a cheap amp w/ good power -like for P.A. equip. or subwoofers maybe?

Shouldn't the switching power supply cause the amp to run cool? You said the switching supply is more eff., but that the Le Amp 2 runs very hot and needs huge heat sinks?
I realize Class A means 'always on', but I thought the switching ps would only be sending it power when getting a signal?

I guess I just can't figure out who this amp is aimed at (much like I couldn't figure at first out who the Panda was aimed at)

Was audiophile sound quality part of the goal of this LeAmp 2 design or just more power for a cheaper price meant to fit w/ NorhTec more than your Norh line?

Could you comment on the sound quality?

[rosconey]

are these a a/b amp that switches to class g like the new outlaw amps?

[mbarnes]

Responding to the many questions quoted below:

Obviously, if we could have met the requirments using Le Amp, we would have used Le Amp. It would have been easier and less expensive.

The customer that we are working with wanted a very specialized product that is custom sized, has custom output and is very unique. We could not produce the exact product they wanted in one month but we could show we had the foundation of what they wanted, which is a switching power supply and a 150 wpc amplifier.  

I can not go into details for the project except that the company we proposed the amplifier to has a very high-end application.  The company has extensive experience with music and would be very strict judges for the overall musical quality.

NorhTec is working with a Thai company that builds switching power supplies for our computers. The power supplies are very advanced as they don't need any fans so our computers make no noise.  

The company that builds our power supplies main business is building amplifiers.  As you know, many high-end audio products are OEM's in Asia and sold for very high prices once the name brand sticker gets put on.

The company that builds our power supplies OEMs audio amplifiers but mostly for automobiles but they do a lot of OEM as well.

We initially got two requests to build powered speakers.  This was a very low price bid but in huge quantities.  We submitted a proposal and the customer came back and asked us to do a 150 watt amplifier with a switching power supply.  

We met with the company and discussed the requirements.  However, instead of investing in building a 150 watt stereo amplifier, we used the money to build two monoblocks.  The 150 watt stereo amplifier would be based on this design but would use only one 800 V/A power supply for both channels.

While it only took us a month to develop the prototype, it was based on the designer's 30 years of amplifier design.

Le Amp 2 will be our new product and we will sell it under the nOrh brand.

Le Amp 2 is absolutely an audiophile grade amplifier.  

As far as cheaper, this is not the case.  We introduced Le Amp for $195.00 each. This is the same price that we are introducing Le Amp 2.  

Le Amp is a great sounding amplifier. It remains a great sounding amplifier.  Le Amp 2 will be a great sounding amplifier.  The major difference between the two will be that Le Amp 2 is more powerful.  The sound is more powerful.  


Is the Le Amp 2 meant to be an audiophile amp like the original Le Amp?

I have no idea how you could conclude that the amplifier is like a PA amplifier.  The internal design is not much different from many very expensive amplifiers.  The devices that we are using are the same devices used in both Macintosh and some Mark Levenson products.  

The switching power supply is still huge -- 800 V/A.  It needs a large heatsink.  The output section runs hot because the gain stage is pure class A.  Your computer uses a switching power supply but needs a fan.  800 V/A is 800 V/A no matter how it is generated. The fact it is generated with a switching power supply simply means that more of that power is available to the amplifier than would be with a conventional power supply but the same amount of power is generated.

The Panda is aimed at any application that requires a small, energy efficient, silent computer.  If you are the type who likes their computers loud, big and energy inefficient, then you won't want the Panda.  It seems that many offices, schools and other organizations like the idea of a small, silent and energy efficient computer.

Le Amp 2 is aimed at the same market we have always gone after. That is the market that looks for value over brand.  

Most of the arguments you post are based on assumptions only.  We would not release an amplifier that we would not consider a worthy successor.  We know enough about sound not to release something that sounds very good.  

There are two reasons why some amplifiers don't sound good.  The first is cost cutting.  Most cost cutting takes place in the transformer. Le Amp (1) is proof that a talented engineer can create a great sounding amplifier primarily by designing a very high quality power supply.  

Le Amp is probably the best amplifier that can be built using a OP Amp design.  The limitation is not sound. The limitation is only power.  I believe that Le Amp is powerful enough for almost all applications and when used in biamped configurations, is more than enough power.  

However, for the project that we were asked to bid, the requirement was to have more than 100 watts.  This meant that we could not use the TDA7294 that has been used in all of the previous amplifiers branded by nOrh.

The requirement also specified a switching power supply.  

I have early version of Le Amp 2 hooked up to a pair of 9.0s for testing.  I invited Namphung to listen.  Her comment was it sounded the same as Le Amp.  My feeling is that there are differences in sound but these are mostly due to the addtional power and not a characteristic of the amp itself.

I think that is how it should be. Great amplifiers should sound more alike than difference.  If there was a difference, that would mean one or the other design was wrong.  

The Multiamp is about five years old right now.  There are many people who write that they still love their Multiamps.  When I compared Le Amp to the Multiamp, I felt that Le Amp had stronger bass and it sounded faster.

When I listen to Le Amp 2, the difference is far more subtle but where there is a difference, it seems to be in the bass which benifits from more power.


"So the Le Amp two was designed in only a month, and you would've submitted the original Le Amp instead if you could've?

Is the Le Amp 2 designed to replace the Le Amp?

Is the Le Amp 2 meant to be an audiophile amp like the original Le Amp?

Judging by the name it seems like it's meant to be a cheaper more powerful yet as good or better sounding version of the original Le Amp, but your description never mentions sound quality and it seems like this was just meant to be a cheap amp w/ good power -like for P.A. equip. or subwoofers maybe?

Shouldn't the switching power supply cause the amp to run cool? You said the switching supply is more eff., but that the Le Amp 2 runs very hot and needs huge heat sinks?
I realize Class A means 'always on', but I thought the switching ps would only be sending it power when getting a signal?

I guess I just can't figure out who this amp is aimed at (much like I couldn't figure at first out who the Panda was aimed at)

Was audiophile sound quality part of the goal of this LeAmp 2 design or just more power for a cheaper price meant to fit w/ NorhTec more than your Norh line?

Could you comment on the sound quality?"

[mbarnes]

Le Amp 2 is not Class G or H.  I remember Class G from Hatachi receivers over 25 years ago.  I had a Soundcraftsman Class H system.

The power supply is Full Bit.  Many switching power supplies are Half Bit which means they only can provide half their rated power.  In all respects, the amplifier behaves as if it had a standard 800 V/A power supply except that it doesn't loose efficiency at higher powers, has more bandwidth and is more efficient.

The amplifier section does not need to operate class G or H. This is because it has a huge power reserve from the switching power supply.  The gain stage is pure Class A using Toshiba JFETS.  The output section uses Toshiba Bipolars.  I did a search on the part numbers and found that McInstosh uses the same parts in their amplifiers.  Many other amplifiers also use these parts.  Sankean and Toshiba are the most commonly used parts in high-end amplifiers. Years ago, companies used Motorola parts but the Toshibas are more linear and have a bandwidth out to 3 Mhz.

[Jay S]

Le Amp 2 sounds similar to a Linn Klimax (at a high level) in that it uses a switching power supply to feed conventional output devices.  Linn says they spent many years perfecting the use of switching power supplies for audio in their less expensive equipment before using it in their flagship amp.  

Seems like the Le Amp 2 will be more versatile since it can put out more current into low resistance loads.  It may also be great for powering a sub.  

How heavy do you think the Le Amp 2 will be?  Do you have an estimate of the dimensions?  

Congrats on the new products and on the high volume work you're going after!

[mbarnes]

This is interesting because five years ago Linn also used the TDA7294 but we didn't know about that.

All audio companies exagerate.  I try not to but I am sure I have that problem from time-to-time.  In any case, you will always read something like "The result of five of dedicated exploration".  I remember when we saw the B&W new 800 series, they claimed to have spent $2 million USD to develop the same shape we already had.  I would have gladly sold it to them for much less.

The company we are working with has been doing switching power supplies for years. They have done it for computers, test equipment, DC to DC power supplies and audio equipment for automobiles.

When I talked to the engineer, he told me that in three years, the cost to do a switching power supply has dropped by a factor of 10. In other words, if our power supply now costs $100, it would have $1,000 three years ago.

The engineer said that all of the transformers are made inhouse.

[azryan]

Thanks for the added info.

I really needed it to understand what the Le Amp 2 is gonna be.

I think it was a little confusing when you mention Norh and NorhTec which don't seem to really go hand in hand markey-wise.

Not that there's anything wrong with that... just made it unclear what aim this amp had.

Comments like this is exactly what I was hoping to hear!...

"Le Amp is a great sounding amplifier. It remains a great sounding amplifier. Le Amp 2 will be a great sounding amplifier. The major difference between the two will be that Le Amp 2 is more powerful. The sound is more powerful."

Great!

Sorry you seemed to take my questions in a negative way...

"-As far as cheaper, this is not the case. We introduced Le Amp for $195.00 each. This is the same price that we are introducing Le Amp 2."

True, but when the Le Amp 2 comes out it'll be cheaper than the orig. Le Amp and that's what I meant and is also true...

...unless the orig. Le Amp is discontinued when the Le Amp 2 comes out, but since the Le Amp 2 seems like a very diff. amp in that it's larger and runs hotter I'm guessing you're not going to discontinue the orig. Le Amp but don't know? Do you know the orig. Le Amp's fate yet?

You said -"I have no idea how you could conclude that the amplifier is like a PA amplifier."

Well.. I didn't conclude that. I just asked 'audiophile' or less critical 'PA/subwoofer' type amp.

It's great to hear your answer is 'audiophile!

With the NorhTec talk, mini-system info, and a month to design... I didn't know if the Le Amp 2 was meant to be a high end amp or not. Now I know.

"Most of the arguments you post are based on assumptions only."

One... they were not arguments.

Two... yes, of course the things I said were assumptions. That's why I asked you to clarify things for me and you did. Thanks.

I'll probably buy a pair.
Hope I didn't bother you trying to pry more info out of you.

Also, how hot is the Le Amp 2 in standby mode?

I live in the desert so heat is a BIG issue for me.

[ABEX]

In shootout comparisions to other amps the LeAmp after modified came close to the Aragon 8008st I had read.I do not know the price difference to a used Aragon 8008 ,but i wonder if it will have to be tweeked in order to bring it up to World Class amp performance like the original LeAmp.

I think these new amps that are switching amps are pretty revolutionary and the components are great,but are they veiled like you find in so many mid-fi stuff?
 
I use a modified B&K ST-202 that has no veiling to it.Recently I listened to Anthem and Rotel amps and there is that distinct veiling over vocals that I cannot live with.The veiling that I am talking about is alleviated by having a Class A\AB amp Bias'd forward to run more in Class A.I think that is the reason that Odyssey amps are so popular is they are forward bias'd to run closer to Class A which eliminates the veiling I am refering to.  

I am not trying to put down the product ,but rather get a feel for what it's performance might be.Will I need to get it modified to get the performance I am looking for like the LeAmp need or will it be setup so that   it truely performs up to the sound quality of the other manfactures mentioned like ML or Krell.If so I will be buying a few sets for sure.
So yeell me what I might expect.  

Thanks for reading my dribble!  

[mbarnes]

Le Amp 2 has an adjustment for setting the bias more Class A.  We are currently running it set to the highest position. With the heat sinks we currently have, they get very very hot.  We will use larger heatsinks in the finished product. The amplifier now runs at 81 degrees C after about 10 min.

If you send me e-mail at mbarnes@norh.com, I can send you photos of what we have.

I agree that Le Amp sounds very very good.  I am not one who buys into mods because I have seen a lot of bad mods.  

I know exactly what you mean about the sound being vieled.  I don't think that anything that we have ever made can be said to have this quality.  

I have used very good equipement as reference equipment.  Even our very small 2.1 system will sound unvieled.  

I think that most of the problems with ampliifiers are because of the power supplies.  You can put together a decent sounding amplifier with a few dollars worth of transistors.  The problem is you might $70 or $80 worth of power supply parts and another $25.00 for the case.

Imagine what it would cost if we tried to build a 800 V/A power supply using a standard transformer.  The switching power supply gives us the ability to offer this level of power for an unheard of price.

In shootout comparisions to other amps the LeAmp after modified came close to the Aragon 8008st I had read.I do not know the price difference to a used Aragon 8008 ,but i wonder if it will have to be tweeked in order to bring it up to World Class amp performance like the original LeAmp.

I think these new amps that are switching amps are pretty revolutionary and the components are great,but are they veiled like you find in so many mid-fi stuff?
 
I use a modified B&K ST-202 that has no veiling to it.Recently I listened to Anthem and Rotel amps and there is that distinct veiling over vocals that I cannot live with.The veiling that I am talking about is alleviated by having a Class A\AB amp Bias'd forward to run more in Class A.I think that is the reason that Odyssey amps are so popular is they are forward bias'd to run closer to Class A which eliminates the veiling I am refering to.  

I am not trying to put down the product ,but rather get a feel for what it's performance might be.Will I need to get it modified to get the performance I am looking for like the LeAmp need or will it be setup so that   it truely performs up to the sound quality of the other manfactures mentioned like ML or Krell.If so I will be buying a few sets for sure.
So yeell me what I might expect.  

Thanks for reading my dribble!  

[Phat Phreddy]

So this is wher eyou all went

As a Norh fan an recomender I dont want this to sound confrontational but sometimes I read something that I cant let slip...

The power supplies are very advanced as they don't need any fans so our computers make no noise.

erm OK... So it has no hard drive then ??? My HTPC by virtue of needing high end soundcard / Radeon GFX card / TV input scaling card / etc must be a power consumer and have PCI slots (hence its 'near silent PSU and watercooling solution) but I can clearly hear any Hard drive on the market including laptop hard drives with the case off... Silentdrive case enclosures help again and lining the case internally with sound treatment again helps... With ALL these things it is barely perceptible (much quieter than a Tivo for example) but still...

No noise is a large claim ??

[Xi-Trum]

The amplifier now runs at 81 degrees C after about 10 min.

Wow!  Looks like you can put a pan on it and fry some eggs.  

Seriously, that temperature is unacceptable.  Sure hope you can solve the heat problem.

[ABEX]

Le Amp 2 has an adjustment for setting the bias more Class A.

All amps that are biasd to run class A run hot.I am eager to hear these babies though.There is a pic Nathan or another has a pic of frying an egg on a PASS amp.Saves on the cooking bill.

   

[mbarnes]

The heatsinks we have on order are huge and will cut the temperature way down.  That won't be an issue.  The way we are currently testing the amplifier is with the bias towards full CLASS A.  We can turn this down once we get the new heatsinks to an acceptable level.  I hope that with the new heat sinks, the temperature will come way down.  The heatsinks are not that different that what you would find on a very expensive CLASS A or CLASS A/B amplifier.

Le Amp 2 has an adjustment for setting the bias more Class A.

All amps that are biasd to run class A run hot.I am eager to hear these babies though.There is a pic Nathan or another has a pic of frying an egg on a PASS amp.Saves on the cooking bill.

   

[mbarnes]

We are not marketing the Panda as HTPC. Whether it is acceptable as a HTPC I am not sure. However, the new Castelrock chip from VIA has almost every capability found in expensive cards. This includes layering, alpha blending, scaling and MPEG II acceleration.  The sound chip is also very high quality. It has six channel output and a S/N ratio of 108dB.   Whether this can match what you have is hard to say.

The case we have is very solid.  It is made from cast aluminum.  

I have tried out some Seagate Baracuda drives and these are absolutely silent. The newer drives float the platters in oil so they are much quieter than older drives.

It is true that many DVD drives and CDROM drives are quite noisy.  We have picked the Liteon slimline drives and these are pretty quiet.  

There are companies selling HTPCs for $2,000 or more.  That is not our target market.  I would say that the Panda is geared more as a convergence product so that someone could have a computer, CD and DVD player in a small, compact product that is also quiet and energy efficient.

I would expect people with boats, RVs, to use the Panda.  I can see it in College dorms or in bedrooms.  Whether it will meet the standards set by the HTPC crowd remains to be seen.  I do think that there are many who will find the product quite practical, affordable and cute.
]

[droliver]

Michael,

do you have any pics of the beta desighn for the le amp 2?