[daleda1]

Now that I have listened to these speakers with Danny’s upgrade For a few weeks (getting them way out from the back wall in my dedicated audio room which is acoustically treated) and everything else dialed in, I really like his work. After watching his recent interview with New Record, my interest was really tweaked when they had a lengthy conversation about using a better cap to replace SoniCap. I wrote down the ones Danny really likes and he explained them really well. Here are the ones he recommended, so what do you guys think?

[daleda1]

sorry for the repeat here is the other one.

[Shives]

You may find a bit more clarity using the better caps, sure! But, at what point do you say, this is good? Sound Vs form and function, Vs quality vs Price. Lol.

At this point, might be a drop in the bucket to add them, tho I think they are a bit pricy.

Something you won’t get around.

The tweeter and its sound... without taking it off, reversing it or removing the top of the speaker.. I think your at about 98-99% best it can be. The woofer is ceramic... So again... your fighting something that can’t be changed.

I’m not here to dampen your style.. So for learning purposes and fun... Go for it! My advise would be to do just one speaker first. Let it break in! See what it sounds like and the difference. Do an A/B comparison. Blind fold your self and see if you can pick the clear winner. If you pick the speaker 3 out of five times.. well some improvement. 4 out of 5 or 5 out of 5. Then maybe you have a better sound.. Or it could be worse, and it’s standing out. If you can’t tell a difference and your choice is different each listen.. Then I would say maybe revert back to the original Sonics.  (Changing just the cap to a better one should improve over-all sound... If any improvements are left to be made.

I also asked this question before I proceeded with my upgrade. Danny mentioned that we had the best and anymore would just be a waste. Now, could be true, but your ears are yours!

I would say if the caps are going to cost an armload, I would not bother. That’s just me.

Just a bit of advise, and please do what ever makes that guy inside smile!! But, I would think and feel that the Klipsch are about as good as can be! I would urge you to save your money! I know, I know... taking away your projects.

I think you would be a hell of a lot happier if you purchase a set of the X-LS Encores. Kit or find a pair that’s been built. This will get you away from the metal drivers!

Paper cone drivers are much better and smoother for audio and sound, Voices.. less stored energy over those Klipsch mids too! No ringing. No stamped steel baskets. No wave guide horn-loaded tweeters they are 3-5 DB higher at factory. That should be open to the back of the cabinet like the NX series. Lol.

Your in the same spot that many of us were, or are.

Cheep things that may help.. Remove all that poly and add fiberglass to the cabinets. Just like the poly is laid. You already moved them away from the back wall! Now, make sure they are towed in towards you! These tend to like a strong tow towards you! Will help your sound strange for sure!

Did you use the tube connectors?? This also helps.

About 100 hours and I found things were really good. Now I want more! X-Statik here we come! I hope.

Welcome to AC! Where you’ll find everything audio!

[Early B.]

I sort of agree with Shives. At some point, you have to determine if the cost is justifiable. No matter what you do, that Klipsch speaker is only gonna sound as good as the drivers.

Nevertheless, I would encourage you to experiment with high end caps because it's part of the learning process and it could help you make better purchase decisions in the future. In fact, based on your experience with upgrading these Klipsch speakers, you probably wouldn't buy them now if you peeked at the crossover beforehand. 

[Shives]

I sort of agree with Shives. At some point, you have to determine if the cost is justifiable. No matter what you do, that Klipsch speaker is only gonna sound as good as the drivers.

Nevertheless, I would encourage you to experiment with high end caps because it's part of the learning process and it could help you make better purchase decisions in the future. In fact, based on your experience with upgrading these Klipsch speakers, you probably wouldn't buy them now if you peeked at the crossover beforehand.

Thanks Early!!

Actually I was just going to come back and add that... If we could ONLY see what the networks looked like before we purchase them! Ha ha. So so true!! All those SVS owners should really take a look. Lol

Very good!

Yea man, go for it.. But if they cost 100-200 I would not. Unless you got some to burn, 200 is close to getting products for the Encores. I’ll bet you 100.00 sound 28 times better. Ha ha.

If you got the time, and loot like I was saying. I would start with just adding the cap to one speaker. And see if you can tell the difference. I think that’s really the only way! Otherwise our ears will be like yup, 200.00 does sound better! More so to the wife! Yes dear, of course it sounds better, can’t you tell!!?? Lol.

I would choose the Myflex.

Staying tuned!  Let see what happens!

[E-Zee]

Daleda1,

I agree with you in the sense that every factor matters.  However, there are some $$$ and logistics challenges to a no expense limit crossover.
You showed caps with 2.2uF value.  To save everyone else looking it up, the versions that you showed compared to Sonicaps breaks down to:
Sonicaps gen1 200VDC  - $30 pair
Audyn true copper Max  - $240 pair
Audio Note copper foil  - $230 pair

At that low value, you are adding over $200 additional cost for that upgrade of 1 capacitor if you had upgraded from the start. Since you already own the sonicaps, upgrading actually costs you your original product cost $30 plus $230 for the upgrade. That's just one capacitor pair.

It gets worse as soon as you step up to higher values. Some challenges with the truly exotic caps is there are very few values available, it becomes so cost prohibitive that the manufacturer doesn't even offer high value caps, plus the sizes can be so large that you no longer can fit the crossover board.

As example if we go up to a value near 6uF, we already have problems with specific values not available, so I just picked next closest value to show relative prices:
Sonicap - gen 1 6uF  - $58 pair
Miflex KPCU-01  6uF  - $470 pair
Audyn True Copper MAx 5.6uF - $600 pair
Audio Note copper foil 6.8uF  - $500 pair

If you increase the capacitor value a little more, 8uF, 20uF, the problem of cost, size, availability continues to increase dramatically.

From a designer/vendor standpoint I think Danny's choice of Sonicap is very solid and proven.  Sonicap offers a full-range of values available at a high-performance per cost ratio.  End of story.  I doubt Danny will ever claim that Sonicap is the only viable option in a relatively similar price range, but I can tell you from my comparatively limited experience that parts availability in specific values is always a problem. 

There are some other high-performance per cost capacitors that I like a lot, but they all have a more limited offering of values than Sonicap does.  Pick any three of Danny's designs, lets say X-Static, X-LS, and your RP-600M upgrade, then pick a popular performance/value capacitor, Jantzen, Audyn, ClarityCap, Obbligato, whatever you like. You almost certainly will be unable to purchase the capacitor values needed to build all 3 kits, from any one product line.  Sure you can mix-and match but it adds labor and cost, trying to find values and have them shipped from different manufacturers. I think you would have a hard time building any 3 designs from even 2 different product lines. Sonicap does solve that in many ways by having a comprehensive option of values.  Other lower-end product lines are also comprehensive, but as product lines increase in cost, their range of values offered typically decreases as well. 

I got sidetracked, sorry.  You are right that higher end caps could give you a performance gain.  I do not think the overall market supports the desire.  Adding $300 to $600 in cost to an already premium crossover is a hard sell, and from my experience other upgrades are often more cost effective. 

Miflex KPCU-01 0.1uF bypass caps at $20 each is a proven upgrade.

Tube connectors at $60 pair is proven from my perspective.
 
I would also argue the value of upgrading resistors first.   Your basic kit probably has Jantzen Superes or similar - $8 pair, which can be upgraded to Mills resistors  - $16 pair, upgraded to Path Audio -$50 pair or Dueland standard-graphite -$45 pair.

I'd rather spend $200 for one of Danny's speaker cable kits or Power cords, or upgrade my actual amplifier, before I would put another $400 into crossover components above something proven like Sonicap with Miflex bypass.

When I see people building $800 crossovers it is usually limited to the crowd that already has $400 speaker cables, $400 power cables, and $3000 amplifiers. For the rest of us I think the money should go into other things first.

Elon

ezeescrossovers.com

[Shives]

Daleda1,

I agree with you in the sense that every factor matters.  However, there are some $$$ and logistics challenges to a no expense limit crossover.
You showed caps with 2.2uF value.  To save everyone else looking it up, the versions that you showed compared to Sonicaps breaks down to:
Sonicaps gen1 200VDC  - $30 pair
Audyn true copper Max  - $240 pair
Audio Note copper foil  - $230 pair

At that low value, you are adding over $200 additional cost for that upgrade of 1 capacitor if you had upgraded from the start. Since you already own the sonicaps, upgrading actually costs you your original product cost $30 plus $230 for the upgrade. That's just one capacitor pair.

It gets worse as soon as you step up to higher values. Some challenges with the truly exotic caps is there are very few values available, it becomes so cost prohibitive that the manufacturer doesn't even offer high value caps, plus the sizes can be so large that you no longer can fit the crossover board.

As example if we go up to a value near 6uF, we already have problems with specific values not available, so I just picked next closest value to show relative prices:
Sonicap - gen 1 6uF  - $58 pair
Miflex KPCU-01  6uF  - $470 pair
Audyn True Copper MAx 5.6uF - $600 pair
Audio Note copper foil 6.8uF  - $500 pair

If you increase the capacitor value a little more, 8uF, 20uF, the problem of cost, size, availability continues to increase dramatically.

From a designer/vendor standpoint I think Danny's choice of Sonicap is very solid and proven.  Sonicap offers a full-range of values available at a high-performance per cost ratio.  End of story.  I doubt Danny will ever claim that Sonicap is the only viable option in a relatively similar price range, but I can tell you from my comparatively limited experience that parts availability in specific values is always a problem. 

There are some other high-performance per cost capacitors that I like a lot, but they all have a more limited offering of values than Sonicap does.  Pick any three of Danny's designs, lets say X-Static, X-LS, and your RP-600M upgrade, then pick a popular performance/value capacitor, Jantzen, Audyn, ClarityCap, Obbligato, whatever you like. You almost certainly will be unable to purchase the capacitor values needed to build all 3 kits, from any one product line.  Sure you can mix-and match but it adds labor and cost, trying to find values and have them shipped from different manufacturers. I think you would have a hard time building any 3 designs from even 2 different product lines. Sonicap does solve that in many ways by having a comprehensive option of values.  Other lower-end product lines are also comprehensive, but as product lines increase in cost, their range of values offered typically decreases as well. 

I got sidetracked, sorry.  You are right that higher end caps could give you a performance gain.  I do not think the overall market supports the desire.  Adding $300 to $600 in cost to an already premium crossover is a hard sell, and from my experience other upgrades are often more cost effective. 

Miflex KPCU-01 0.1uF bypass caps at $20 each is a proven upgrade.

Tube connectors at $60 pair is proven from my perspective.
 
I would also argue the value of upgrading resistors first.   Your basic kit probably has Jantzen Superes or similar - $8 pair, which can be upgraded to Mills resistors  - $16 pair, upgraded to Path Audio -$50 pair or Dueland standard-graphite -$45 pair.

I'd rather spend $200 for one of Danny's speaker cable kits or Power cords, or upgrade my actual amplifier, before I would put another $400 into crossover components above something proven like Sonicap with Miflex bypass.

When I see people building $800 crossovers it is usually limited to the crowd that already has $400 speaker cables, $400 power cables, and $3000 amplifiers. For the rest of us I think the money should go into other things first.

Elon

ezeescrossovers.com

Easy E for the Win!

Information level-Expert! This is an awesome awesome response. Honestly, I had no idea those other were that expensive.. to which I don’t doubt. You could have said 300 and I would have felt the same.

Fact- we are prob not going to be able to convince others that our Klipsch are worth XY an Z after. Will be a hard sell for some.. unless you find that perfect person.. Probably in these forums. Ha ha.

Also agree.. if your going to spend that on some caps. Again like E said, go for some speaker cables.. matter of fact... I think E has some right now in that ballpark, and you’ll prob benefit much more.. Danny’s been doing audio for years.. years and years. Sorry Danny. Lol your like the OG of audio. His choice for the cap is a solid one.

Anyways, check into some other ideas. Like mentioned E has some cables he’s selling. Check them out in the for sale area. I think accessories.

[daleda1]

Thanks so much guys. Funny, the  XLS Encores were to be my next project. thank so much for your kind and “to the point” expertise. Definitely put me on the right track for my next project. I did use the tube connectors and I left Danny a note in another post “OK I get it” as I wasn’t expecting an improvement in sound quality, but following Danny’s advice of doing as little harm to the signal path as possible. I will report back once I have started new project. I had never owned a Klipsch speaker in my life but was intrigued watching his videos of the upgrade. They do work very well with my vintage tube amp and preamp which I rebuilt and modified with newer circuit boards and high quality point to point wire, caps, resistors, you get the idea.

[E-Zee]

Daleda1,
Just to clarify.  I think your upgraded RP-600m is a great speaker.  It's beautiful.  It plays loud. I like the sound a lot. It has street-cred and you will always be able to resell and recoup a large portion of your investment.  It is a great speaker.
I wanted to be clear on that and don't want you down on yourself or think you should have bought something else.  I think the reservation your hearing from all of us is that putting another $300 dollars into that crossover will probably put you beyond the point of measurable return.

If you want to make a couple small dollar improvements to that crossover, perhaps upgrade one or both resistors, or add a bypass cap, I'd be happy to make a few recommendations and you could make both of those upgrades for $30 to $60 in parts, depending on which bypass caps used. If that interests you than send me a private message or email and I'll make a couple quick and specific recommendations for that.  Anything beyond that and your gourmet caps are just too much$$$$.

One clarification for anyone else since Shives mentioned I may have some speaker cables for sale.  I actually am not selling any products. In addition to performing crossover assemblies for Danny's customers, I have assembled some of Danny's speaker cables for his customers.  This week I have a customer sending me some of Danny's 16 strand braided cable and his own connectors, which I will build into a power cable, to the customers specification.

 I will build and assemble anything that a customer wants on an individual basis but I am not stocking any inventory.  If someone wants any cables or crossovers built, than each item is built to order.  Danny is willing to ship your purchased components direct to me for assembly.  I then ship you, the customer, the fully assembled item. 

I value and am respectful of intellectual property. I can't morally buy raw product on my own, and then sell copies of one of Danny's designs. That would be counterfeiting his product which I'm not willing to do.  I however can build anything that a customer specifies. That could be a kit they purchase from Danny, it could be based on just a schematic that the customer provides where I select and buy the components, or it could be a unique or custom product.  I am not offering crossover design services, and I'm not an anyway undercutting or competing with any other designer. I'm only offering the labor to assist those that don't have the desire, or tools, or experience, or time, or perhaps simply want a higher quality assembly that what they could do themselves.

Elon

ezeescrossovers.com

[daleda1]

Thank you Elon so much. You’re points are well taken and much appreciated. David

[77SunsetStrip]

If you want to experiment, try the CDE 940C 0.01uF as a bypass.  Humble Homemade HiFi capacitor test gave those pretty high praise for a not very expensive cap.  I have used them in a couple speakers with very good results. 

[Shives]

Crap… It’s Wig… Wig has cables for sale. They are GR cables. The kit. But, again I was just thinking that might help Wig and you…

E zzze sorry… Both of you have shorter names and I screwed that up! My apologies.

Again, was not referring to E-zze as doing anything wrong. Just thought it was him who bought cables and went another way. Rather it’s another member Wig. I still like the idea of the speakers cables for the money over the internal parts. I just don’t see it as I good expense.. I’m sorry. Lol but this is where we can agree to disagree.

For me I think the Klipsch RP’s are about as good as they need to be, before it’s to much. Knowing I would sell these, it’s hard to think I could re-coup so much. E-Zzes idea of a power mains cable (which I was not saying he had) and speaker cable would be a better idea. Here’s is my thoughts.

The speaker is going to be able to take full advantage of the power mains cable and speaker cable! Yup! But, it’s 100% something you can keep, and won’t have to re-sell. If you do, you’ll tend to get your money back from this DIY version. Just a guess. 1. The cables kits from GR that Wig…… WIG is selling. Dam my bad. Are something to consider. Again, it would help a member, and you. He is going a different way.. that’s all. Nobody trying to sell them as a job. I don’t know and I’ve never compared these high of caps with these speakers with the design will make as much a difference.

And yes, they are cool speakers! I have them! And the 504C with upgrades.

So, I apologize sorry.. To all.. check out the classifieds you’ll see the post. Might be your size or not. Or, try some caps!  Then a/b see what you find!

[CaptainBill]

VCAP CuTF if you really want something special.  Be prepared for a few hundred hours burn in though.  I would save that for a better speaker.