[Socrates7]

Yeah Doug a Pendragon S might be pretty ultimate.

Yeah, this would be pretty awesome. My understanding is that there will be something coming. Whether it's a Pendragon S or something a bit more grand, Eric apparently has some seriously interesting stuff coming down the line.

[doug s.]

Yeah, this would be pretty awesome. My understanding is that there will be something coming. Whether it's a Pendragon S or something a bit more grand, Eric apparently has some seriously interesting stuff coming down the line.

wouldn't surprise me - tekton seems to come out w/new product frequently...

doug s.

[Rclark]

Hey guys between the Lore S and the Katzmeow would you say the separate tweeter automatically wins?

[doug s.]

macro, we are pretty-much on the same page, re: not needing to break the bank to get good sound.  (and the need for a big space to optimize  your system. i long to return to my prior ~26x38 room - it was freaking awesome!) 

but, (as is to be expected?), i would do your system a bit different.  i would likely choose radian compression drivers, because i do like having a higher frequency response - it prowides a bit more air, imo, even tho our hearing definitely ain't what it used to be at our age.  i'd likely swap out your b&c dcx50's, (not dmx's, btw), cuz even tho they're flat out to 16khz, (not 14khz), the radians go to 20khz.  (and they can still be crossed to woofers at 500hz if you use 24db/octave slopes.)  you may wanna check them out; they are getting a lot of good rewiews.

and, while you may be happy w/bass down to 40hz, i can't be happy w/o subwoofers and flat in-room response to <20hz.  it adds a lot to music that you might not realize, except if you have experienced it.  and, some music i listen to has prodigious low frequency information.

as this all relates to tekton, i think they're on the right track, but i simply like more detail than is offered by the zu/tekton style eminence driver based systems.  (perhaps zu's top models, w/their specially nano-treated cones, offer more detail, but we're talking silly money now...)

doug s.

[doug s.]

Hey guys between the Lore S and the Katzmeow would you say the separate tweeter automatically wins?

well, if i had to guess, based on the specs and the cabinetry, i would guess the $100 more expensive katzmeow would be slightly more refined, and the lore s would have slightly better low end bass response...  as i would be using subs, i would lean towards the katzmeow.  (and shipping may be slightly cheaper, as the speakers weigh a bit less and the cabinets are a bit smaller.)  but i would still wanna hear them before considering a purchase.  or i would only buy a used pair, so i could re-sell w/o taking as much of a financial hit.  but, i am cheap - ask macrojack!   

doug s.

[doug s.]

another thing that impresses me w/the tekton's.  if you were wanting to build a clone of the lore s, yust the cost of the drivers alone would run you $612 + shipping, if purchased from madisound.  then, you have to buy parts for and assemble the crossover, cabinet, binding posts, wires, etc.  pretty impressive that a speaker that retails for $1400 has drivers that cost >$600.

doug s.

[Rclark]

Yeah he seems to have the business aspect knocked..  Definitely has my attention. Since it's a full time job for him I doubt he'd ever post here but it would be cool.

[JLM]

Doug S said, "and, while you may be happy w/bass down to 40hz, i can't be happy w/o subwoofers and flat in-room response to <20hz.  it adds a lot to music that you might not realize, except if you have experienced it."

and... "I think they're on the right track, but i simply like more detail than is offered by the zu/tekton style eminence driver"

Agreed, agreed, and agreed.

[macrojack]

Doug - Sorry for my inaccuracies. I wrote that info using a bad resource (my memory). I'm nearing 65 years old and have been assured that planning for the future needn't include better frequency response. Even if I wanted to experiment with a different driver, I could never justify the expense. The throat of my horns is cast aluminum and is machined to fit the driver you intend to use. A change there would require pretty big outlay. Then there's the fact that my custom crossover is designed for the driver I'm using. At this point in my life, it seems that being happy with what I have is far more practical than looking for things to be unhappy about. Same goes for bass extension. I just don't feel the need to open that can of worms. I've had a lot of speakers that will go lower and I've run the course with subs. Maybe my estimate about lower reach was as truncated as you've shown my upper end estimate to be. All I need comes from a 15 inch professional woofer in a 5 cubic foot ported box. Can anyone here estimate what sort of bass that actually reproduces? Where does it roll off?

I have a decibel meter app in my iPhone. Would that provide an accurate measurement using the Stereophile Test CD?

This is a Tekton thread and it was never my intention to divert it. I was really just reinforcing Doug's contention that there are other ways to skin this cat without a second mortgage or strict adherence to the basic box with good reviews scenario. We've seen that run up quite a hefty tab for unexceptional results. Real high quality horn designs (waveguides) can do everything as well as any other design with a scale, ease, coherence and dynamism that no other design matches on all counts. A lot of members have found that out using Gedlee.

Getting them accepted by the wife is another story though.

[doug s.]

damn, macro, w/almost 10 years on me, you make me feel like a kid!     i wasn't trying to nit-pic your comments; i simply felt that correction would be in order for anyone considering going down the road you went.  and yes, if you would have to re-machine new throats and build new x-overs for radian compression drivers, i could certainly understand wanting to leave well-enough alone. 

there are definitely many ways to get great speakers w/o breaking the bank.  seems to me tekton is on the right track w/that...  more companies should consider selling their speakers at not much more than twice the price of the drivers.     tho i can understand that, for some speaker cabinetry, this is not possible.  that's ok, imo, if the cabinetry serves a performance purpose, and is not done simply for eye candy. 

doug s.

[Russtafarian]

I had a chance to hear the Tekton Lores this weekend.  Steve Lefkowicz who wrote the Positive Feedback review brought them over on Saturday and we had a chance to do an extended comparison between the Lores and my Zu Souls.

First let me describe my Zu Souls.  I bought the Souls for $1,000 last year when Zu cleared them out after discontinuing the model.  Compared to the rest of the Zu line, the Soul has Omen drivers/parts in a Superfly cabinet.  I initially changed the tweeter cap from the stock 1uf Erse to a 1uf Jantzen Supreme Z.  This smoothed out and opened up the top end of the speaker. While the Jantzen isn’t as buttery smooth and extended as the Mundorf cap used in the Superfly, it’s pretty darn close for ¼th the price.

Last fall I heard a pair of Fostex bullet tweeters in a friend’s system and was blown away at how clean, extended, and resolute they sounded.  They were simply the best tweeters I had ever heard.  I picked up a pair of Fostex T90A tweeters (around $400 pr. from Madisound) to try with my Zus.  I ended up removing the stock tweeters and mating the Zu full range driver directly to the T90A’s sitting on top of the cabinet.  The stock Soul tweeter is good but the Fostex is way better (as it should be for 6X the price).  Sean @ Zu told me he loves the Fostex tweeter but can’t get enough units from Fostex to use it in any production speakers.

Anyway, we listened to the Zu’s for a while then switched to the Lores.  The cabinet on the Lores is very utilitarian.  It is well built MDF and the paint finish is smooth and clean but cabinet seams at the edges hadn’t been filled and smoothed to where they were unnoticeable.  This is part of the value proposition.  In order to sell a $1,000 speaker with $400 worth of drivers, cabinet finish labor is minimized.  There is nothing wrong with that as long as the customer understands the compromise.

The Souls and Lores share a lot of positive characteristics.   They are both very dynamic, producing a sound that pressurizes the body as well as the ear, even at lower levels.  They are both phase coherent.  Spatial cues in the mix are precisely decoded and spread out over a deep, wide soundstage.  You’d be surprised at how many high priced, high end speakers garble and collapse this phase information into a small constricted soundstage.  The midrange, where the meat of the music is, sounded very fleshed out and lively.  Not surprising, since they use similar broadband drivers. 

Where the speakers differed was in the bass, treble, and soundstaging.  Both speakers delivered exceptional bass slam and extension down to around 40hz in my room.  The Zus had a smoother room rolloff, while the Lores had a bit of a bass-reflex bump around 50 to 60 hz.  Keep in mind that room characteristics and amplifier damping have a huge influence on this.

Treble response was very different between the speakers.  The Lores use the very efficient Audax Gold tweeter.  The sound was very lively and detailed in the mid-treble band (8-10khz).  This is the splash and sizzle range that can get edgy and fatiguing when not done right.  Most metal domes drive me crazy but these didn’t.  We listened to Lores for well over two hours and the speakers didn’t irritate or fatigue me at all.  That’s a very high complement coming from me.  We were listening to a push-pull 6550 based tube amp so I don’t know how the treble’s character will sound with other amp topologies.

The Zu/Fostex was different in that there was less energy in the splash and sizzle region and not as much perceived detail.  The information was there, just not as prominent.  I tuned the combination this way on purpose because I’m not a detail freak and I’m very sensitive to clangy, edgy recordings.  The Fostex had better treble extension and delicately defined attack and decay.  This produced a big, open, airy, precisely defined soundstage that filled the room front to back, wall to wall, floor to ceiling.  The soundstage on the Lores was still very good due to its phase coherence, but sounded closed in by comparison.  Image height stayed about eye level and stage width didn’t extend much beyond the speakers.  I’m not dissing the Lores.  Its soundstage was very good, especially at this price point.  The Lores just couldn’t match the magical capabilities of those Fostex tweeters.

Steve and I popped the woofer out of one of the Lores to see the crossover, which looks like a simple 2nd order two way topology.  Based on the values of the tweeter caps, I’m guessing the crossover frequency is somewhere between 6 and 8khz.  This points to a design difference between the Zus and the Lores.  While Zu custom builds their driver to run it wide open with no crossover, the Lore uses a stock Eminence driver and crosses it over like most two-way speakers.  Steve did confirm that the Lore uses off-the shelf stock drivers.  There’s nothing wrong with that, especially given the quality of the drivers for this price point. 

I’ll conclude by saying the Lores have no business sounding as good as they do for $1,000 pr.  I suppose you could DIY something like this, but since the value proposition is so high, why would you?  If I didn’t have what I have, I would buy these in a heartbeat, but would pay the extra $$ for a more refined finish.  I’m pretty damn impressed.

Russ

[doug s.]

russ, i am curious what the results woulda been if you ran the fostex tweets w/the lore full-ranger...

doug s.

[Russtafarian]

It's hard to say. The results could land anywhere between terrific and train wreck.

The fact that Tekton is using a crossover to low-pass the driver leads me to believe that the stock Eminence has some spiky, shouty artifacts up top that need to be smoothed out one way or another.

[Rclark]

How are you doing that with the Zu's? Active crossover?

Nice to see the regular Lore stacks up.

[Russtafarian]

The Zu driver runs wide open with no crossover.  They get the cones, baskets, motors, etc from Eminence and custom build the drivers to get the performance curve they're looking for.

[Steidl Guitars]

Russ, nicely done.

[Rclark]

Maybe I didn't see how you made this work, is the Fostex running full range too? No crossover there?

[Russtafarian]

Maybe I didn't see how you made this work, is the Fostex running full range too? No crossover there?

The Fostex tweeters definitely need a crossover.  Without one they would get instantly vaporized by a full range signal like most other tweeters.  I use a 1.2uf capacitor and a 15 watt L-pad  (to set output level) and wire it out of phase with the Zu driver.  The Zu driver is running wide open with no crossover on it.

russ, i am curious what the results woulda been if you ran the fostex tweets w/the lore full-ranger...

I'll bet the Fostex tweeters would sound great with the Tekton models using Fostex full range drivers.  They were designed to work together.

[Rclark]

How did you come to decide on that configuration for the tweeter?

[Russtafarian]

How did you come to decide on that configuration for the tweeter?

I put it together based on the T90A data sheet.  I listened to different cap values and 1.2uf gives me the best balance for my ears.

Russ