AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Rock Ball on 7 Sep 2020, 03:03 pm
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My brother bought Danny's speaker cables kit and realized he didn't have the proper equipment to assemble them, so I built them for him.
Danny gave him instructions on how to put them together, but I don't think I followed those instructions exactly. Here are some photos of how I built my brother's cables. I'm not saying to do it this way. I'm just posting pictures for those who like to look at pictures.
The downside is that it took me about 12 hours to assemble, due to my OCD. The upside is that I got to listen to the cables for a day before my brother picked them up. Unfortunately, these cables sounded much better than the new cables I just bought from another company. Now, I'll have to assemble a new set for myself after I order them from Danny.
Here are some photos.
First of all, the cable is beautiful. It's constructed of 24 wires (12 white/12 clear) braided in a way that forms a tube.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214218)
I separated the wire into two twisted groups.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214219)
Each wire contained 7 strands of different gauges. For each wire, I isolated the two largest strands from the rest.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214220)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214221)
I took the larger strands from all the wires and twisted them together so that they would fit into a male tube connector.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214222)
These fit very tightly. I did not crimp the tube because I wanted to keep it round.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214225)
I soldered inside the tube first.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214226)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214227)
I wrapped the remaining smaller strands from all the wires around the outside of the tube connector and soldered them.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214229)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214232)
I applied heat shrink. Do you see anything wrong with this picture?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214237)
(My OCD failed me. I didn't notice that I had the red and black heat shrink swapped, but the mistake was obvious the first second I listened to the cables. I had to redo the heat shrink only on these two.)
I applied the white heat shrink over Danny's 'secret sauce' wrap (in red box) before the Y and covered all of that with white heat shrink.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214242)
I didn't use tube connectors on the opposite end so I formed it for bare wire use.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214239)
I ran out of red and white heat shrink. Here are the final results.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214240)
I drew red boxes around the secret sauce.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214241)
Here's a quote from my brother after he put them in his system:
"I don't think I have ever heard such a significant difference in a cable or speaker wire as these."
I agree.
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Beautiful work! I'd love to hear them someday, but I've spent enough money for the time being.. :P
Ill stick to my cheap zipcord for now... :P
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What's this "secret Sauce", I didn't get any with my cables :cry:
I did mine similar except I did crimp the tube connectors and used clear shrink wrap so not as pretty.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214243)
Instead of bare wire at the amp end I used Furutech locking banana plugs
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214244)
:thumb: :thumb:
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What's this "secret Sauce", I didn't get any with my cables :cry:
I'll let Danny chime in on the 'secret sauce' since I didn't speak directly to him about what they are.
Instead of bare wire at the amp end I used Furutech locking banana plugs
:thumb: :thumb:
I like those banana plugs that you used
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Rock Ball - Beautiful work! Those terminations look very Professional. If I tried to make them look like that, it would take me a week and they would look like a Crafts project from an 8 year old’s Summer Camp session.
Well done!
Which cables are those? I see the Electra’s on the website, and these look different.
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Do they come pre-braided? I'm assuming no as that probably was the bulk of your 12 hours constructing them.
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Do they come pre-braided? I'm assuming no as that probably was the bulk of your 12 hours constructing them.
Yes, they come braided. You have to unbraid them to put on the connectors.
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Rock Ball - Beautiful work! Those terminations look very Professional. If I tried to make them look like that, it would take me a week and they would look like a Crafts project from an 8 year old’s Summer Camp session.
Well done!
Which cables are those? I see the Electra’s on the website, and these look different.
Thank you.
These are not the same cables that are shown on Danny's website.
The cables look just like these:
https://www.kimber.com/products/12TC
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I purchased a set of Electra B-6 speaker cables from Danny last month, but asked him to perform the labor -- male tube connectors on the speaker end and bananas on the amp end. Geez, 12 hours of OCD??? -- glad I didn't go DIY on these.
Anyway, the speaker cables sound fantastic. A real no brainer for the price. What I really don't like about them is the white color. They scream at you from across the room. So I covered them with 3/4" black tech flex.
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Thank you.
These are not the same cables that are shown on Danny's website.
The cables look just like these:
https://www.kimber.com/products/12TC
Huh?
In your original post, you said your brother bought Danny's speaker cables, but these aren't Danny's speaker cables???? Are you saying they're rebranded Kimber cables?
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Yes, they come braided. You have to unbraid them to put on the connectors.
Great! Hmmm...wasn't planning on speaker wires just yet but I'm going to place an order for some subs this week so I might have to ask Danny about them.
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well after reading this as of GR was copying Kimber 8TC i went to check on what GR really is using as it is nothing like the (apparent clone as the Kimber-clone uses different gauge wires but not the large difference seen in the photos. So IMO this similar looking to Kimber 8TC is not Kimber 8TC but some aftermarket clone most likely from China?) used in this thread
Anyway the title of this thread is utterly misleading as the wire is not GR and the construction technique is only vaguely similar to GR's.
So all in all I would wonder why it has a header GR Research speaker cables at all.
I send Danny a note telling him of this travesty of a thread
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well after reading this as of GR was copying Kimber 8TC i went to check on what GR really is using as it is nothing like the (apparent clone as the Kimber-clone uses different gauge wires but not the large difference seen in the photos. So IMO this similar looking to Kimber 8TC is not Kimber 8TC but some aftermarket clone most likely from China?) used in this thread
These aren't clones. Although Kimber and Danny's cables are similar in appearance, the descriptions are totally different:
Electra B-6:
The B-6 speaker cable uses six 16 gauge conductors made from four 9's purity, solid core Copper. The dielectric material is made from a 30 mil polyethylene insulator. Three conductors are used for positive and three are used for negative. The total gauge is just over 11 gauge per leg. These six conductors are braided in a counter rotating geometry around a poly-cotton core to cancel out RFI and EMI effects resulting in a lower noise floor. ERS paper shielding is also used.
Kimber 8TC:
- 16 strands of 19.5 AWG OFE (oxygen free electrolytic) copper with industry leading conductivity. (102% IACS).
- Aggregate combination of 8, 19.5AWG strands=9AWG per +/- leg.
- Teflon insulation. White/Clear
Kimber 12TC:
- 24 strands of 19.5 AWG OFE (oxygen free electrolytic) copper with industry leading conductivity. (102% IACS).
- Aggregate combination of 12, 19.5AWG strands=8AWG per +/- leg.
- Teflon insulation. White/Clear
Also note that Kimber is significantly more expensive.
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This cable and the B6 are not the same.
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Guys, we've been trying out this new cable for a while now and I decided that I liked it better than the hand braided cable that we were making with our internal wire.
You might have see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC0s6KqQz3g&t=352s
We are buying it in bulk from a supplier already braided. I don't know if it is the same supplier Kimber gets their wire from or not. It does look identical in every way that I can see. And it is not cheap. But no more hours of hand braiding.
This one shown here is a 24 conductor cable just like the Kimber 12TC cable.
I also have several hundred meters of the 16 conductor cable just like the Kimber 8TC.
So here is the deal:
For $39 you get your choice of tube connectors, spades, or banana's, the secret source ESR paper strips, solder, and heat shrink.
The 24 conductor cable is $13.50 a foot.
The 16 conductor cable is $9.50 a foot.
In the end it not only sounds really good, but is a LOT less expensive then the Kimber brand.
Keep in mind though, that you guys have to terminate the ends yourself. This is not a fully assembled, ready to plug and play, cable.
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And I think you referenced this cable in the third video of Ron's visit to GR Research when you were talking about the cables you were using in your system and mentioned that the speaker cables were something you were trying out and might sell....something like that.
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And I think you referenced this cable in the third video of Ron's visit to GR Research when you were talking about the cables you were using in your system and mentioned that the speaker cables were something you were trying out and might sell....something like that.
Yes.
And they really are very good.
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Danny --
OK, so I don't have the Electra B-6 speaker cable. I have the new cable that appears identical to Kimber 12TC cable, but is "modified" with ESR paper. Is that correct?
You got a name for these speaker cables???
Geez, man -- I'll be glad when you get your new website up and running.
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Yes.
And they really are very good.
Have you compared them to the Electra’s? Any circumstances where your preference for one over the other would change?
I imagine it takes a few dollars more to get enough heat shrink, plus some manpower hours (“Peoplepower”?, “Personpower”?) to get them terminated. Looks like it wouldn’t take too long if had all the supplies on hand as well as some experience soldering and with heat shrink, especially with the nice photo tutorial in this thread. :thumb:
Something to think about. Seems like a really good deal for those in the market.
(PS - plan to shoot you an email to order some x-over stuff)
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Danny --
OK, so I don't have the Electra B-6 speaker cable. I have the new cable that appears identical to Kimber 12TC cable, but is "modified" with ESR paper. Is that correct?
If it looks like this then you do.
You got a name for these speaker cables???
I guess I should figure that out.
Geez, man -- I'll be glad when you get your new website up and running.
Oh, I know...
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Have you compared them to the Electra’s? Any circumstances where your preference for one over the other would change?
I like these a little better than the hand braided ones we were making and selling as the B-6 and B-4 models.
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OK, here are some proposed names for the speaker cables:
GR Research "Crisscross 24" and "Crisscross 16"
How about the Twisted Mystics?
If you want to maintain a similar nomenclature among your product offerings, how about the Exotica cable line? Add some ICs.
If you want to keep it super simple, what about the GR24 and GR16?
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Danny --
You got a name for these speaker cables???
I guess I should figure that out.
Whatever you do, don't name it the "GR-Research Speaker Cable Kit"....
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No wonder I was confused. My speaker cables arrived in this box:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214250)
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Whatever you do, don't name it the "GR-Research Speaker Cable Kit"....
Definitely not!!! :lol:
And a kit for speaker cables? Unbraiding and re-braiding the ends just to attach bananas or spades? 12 hours of OCD? Nah. These speaker cables are too "high end" to be offered in kit form, IMO. I was gladly willing to pay a little extra to get them professionally terminated. If they were sold in kit form only, I wouldn't have bought them.
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I've been using this cable in my upstairs system for about a year and it's excellent.
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I've been using this cable in my upstairs system for about a year and it's excellent.
Agreed. It outperformed my previous custom copper ribbon cables that I owned for many years.
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Whatever you do, don't name it the "GR-Research Speaker Cable Kit"....
But see that's not a bad way to do, just not fully written out.. :P
SC-16
SC-24
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I’m gonna have to try these out!
Barry :D
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I like these a little better than the hand braided ones we were making and selling as the B-6 and B-4 models.
Many years back, Danny helped get started on a pair of the B-6 cables- and then I took it home and spent close to 2 days trying to save a few bucks. I've still got the cables, but I'd certainly not do that again. This sounds like a MUCH easier way to build a set of good speaker cables.
That experience ranks right next to replacing tonearm wires as something I'd pay to have someone else do after days of cussing.
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At first, I thought this was a variant of VH Audio's CHeLA speaker cables, which I have in my system, but this version is not as expensive.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214270)
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For what you get that’s a great price! Very tempting.
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We feed a poly/cotton rope through the center of the ones we assemble in house.
You can see it in Early B's pic.
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Can we get a cryo'd version? :icon_twisted:
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We feed a poly/cotton rope through the center of the ones we assemble in house.
You can see it in Early B's pic.
Here's a couple of better pics:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214271)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214272)
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Thank you Danny, I am glad you cleared up my confusion.
I would also suggest adding a 1" diameter 100% cotton rope in the center of the braid. The braid pops open by pushing it together lengthwise. get the rope* inside and the braid can be pulled back down over it tightly (I suggest wearing leather or fabric gloves to pull the braid back down saves your skin Teflon is really hard... Anyway to get the braid tight against the rope twist it back and forth a little bit while pulling it out, letting one hand slide along the cable while pulling. works great.
1" rope .If you could find a smooth 1 1/2" rope even better. but I never found one.
Also I wonder about the long pigtails at the ends. just a waste of the design. when I made my 'other brand' set I left the ends braided as close as I could leave them so only about 1/2" at the end not braided. It is true this made it harder to keep the wire lined up to get into the ends (I used WBT connectors, and WBT sleeves so easier... But is possible to do and looks way better.
*Taping/glue the very ends of the rope so the end does not unravel as you push it inside) really helps, I also trimmed/tapered the end of the rope just the last 1/2" in a cone shape to look better in the ends. It is very hard to judge the exact length of rope needed
For a perfectionist you might conplete adding in the rope once and then measure and take that rope out if too short. or trim it if too long. but then the second cable you will have the ability to measure the rope correctly from the first one.
Also is the insulation of The GR cable Teflon? as that is the main reason the Kimber is expensive. Plus the Teflon takes a long time to break in vs poly. The Teflon will sound 'bright' for weeks..
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We feed about a 5/8" rope through the middle of it, and push it through using a teflon tube.
They claim the jacket is Teflon, but it kind of feels a little like Polyethylene, but it is not like the polyethylene on our internal wire.
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Also I wonder about the long pigtails at the ends. just a waste of the design. when I made my 'other brand' set I left the ends braided as close as I could leave them so only about 1/2" at the end not braided. It is true this made it harder to keep the wire lined up to get into the ends (I used WBT connectors, and WBT sleeves so easier... But is possible to do and looks way better.
Long pigtails are required in some applications...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214284)
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So I just built a set of these and i happen to own a pair of Kimber 12VS cables that I use with my NX-Oticas. After about 8hrs of run time I compared the two and I think Danny's cables are slightly better. Not sure if its the actual cables or the fact that Danny's have tube connector barrels on the speaker end instead of bananas. I suspect they will get even better after 50hrs. So I would say the price is a steal and it's worth the hours it takes to terminate them.
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So I just built a set of these and i happen to own a pair of Kimber 12VS cables that I use with my NX-Oticas. After about 8hrs of run time I compared the two and I think Danny's cables are slightly better. Not sure if its the actual cables or the fact that Danny's have tube connector barrels on the speaker end instead of bananas. I suspect they will get even better after 50hrs. So I would say the price is a steal and it's worth the hours it takes to terminate them.
Did you insert rope in the middle of the cable?
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The braided white and copper certainly is prettier than the typical black techflex.
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Did you insert rope in the middle of the cable?
No rope
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I just received another GR Research 24 Strand Cable Kit from Danny. The first one was my brother's. This one is for me.
After reading the discussion about inserting rope and talking to Danny, I was curious about how easy it would be to install the rope.
I experimented with compressing the cable lengthwise to widen the center area.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214796&size=large)
Width of cable as received:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214797)
Width of cable with 5/8" rope inserted:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214798)
Width of cable with larger diameter such that the wires cross at a more perpendicular angle:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214799)
I think it looks really cool with the larger diameter.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214808&size=large)
It seems to stay in place pretty well if not moved around. I don't have pets or children so I suspect the cables would be safe. If bent, I could form them back into shape.
Has anyone experimented with the wider diameter?
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After Kimber came out with their Select series I experimented with the design on my 8TC cables. Kimber used anti-static materials and the cheapest alternative I could think of was dryer sheets. So I saved a bunch of them and stuffed them down the middle of the expanded braid. I compared the stuffed to regular 8TC and sadly couldn’t really tell much of a difference.
In all honesty it was a silly experiment and mostly done out of boredom and mild curiosity. I could hear how 4 and 8TC and even VS cables were better than ordinary zip cord and even larger twisted cables. But my experiment was ultimately not well done and I just threw my hands up and said “whatever”. I still use them on occasion but mostly as back up cables as they’re only 5’ long.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214879)
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I finished the second set of speaker cables. I did a few things differently so I wanted to mention them here.
I ended up not using rope because I liked the look of the wider diameter cable with nothing in the center.
I bought a very nice wire stripper which made stripping all 96 wires much easier, neater, and faster.
Instead of using my soldering iron, I used my SMD/Rework Station.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214997)
It enabled me to heat the end of the tube connectors so that solder would flow completely to the ends, filling all air gaps.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214998)
(OCD note: 12 largest strands + 4 next largest strands fit inside end of tube. Added more next larger strands as needed to fill the larger tube opening.)
The completed cable.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214999)
With the experience I gained from building the first set of cables, I was able to build these in much less time.
EDIT: I failed to mention that I received my cable in one piece. After I cut it in two, I marked the ends on both pieces to keep track of the 'direction' of the cable. I added red heat shrink on the proper ends to indicate the original direction. I'm not claiming that I can hear a difference in cable direction, but I just wanted to keep track of it.
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So I just built a set of these and i happen to own a pair of Kimber 12VS cables that I use with my NX-Oticas. After about 8hrs of run time I compared the two and I think Danny's cables are slightly better. Not sure if its the actual cables or the fact that Danny's have tube connector barrels on the speaker end instead of bananas. I suspect they will get even better after 50hrs. So I would say the price is a steal and it's worth the hours it takes to terminate them.
I have used both Kimber VS and TC speaker cables. The TC is MUCH better than VS - much greater clarity. I have no experience with Danny's cable, so I am not trying to make a value comparison between his cable and Kimber TC. If it is functioning in the TC ballpark I would expect it to beat the VS.
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I bought a very nice wire stripper which made stripping all 96 wires much easier, neater, and faster.
Can you share which wire strippers you purchased?
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Can you share which wire strippers you purchased?
https://www.tequipment.net/Ideal45-174.html
This is a case where you get what you pay for. They make a less expensive version that doesn't have the special mil-spec die.
My cheaper wire strippers tore up the wire.
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I have used both Kimber VS and TC speaker cables. The TC is MUCH better than VS - much greater clarity. I have no experience with Danny's cable, so I am not trying to make a value comparison between his cable and Kimber TC. If it is functioning in the TC ballpark I would expect it to beat the VS.
Now that I have several days playing time through Danny’s cables, I can say that they are significantly better than Kimber VS.
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A few questions, did I miss where Danny stayed what type of copper is used? Also is the smaller 16 strand version the same color scheme as the larger strand?
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Now that I have several days playing time through Danny’s cables, I can say that they are significantly better than Kimber VS.
Better than 12VS?
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Better than 12VS?
Yes, better soundstage, richer midrange. IMO
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What's the purpose of the ESR paper strip used in the construction of these cables? I'm not familiar with this concept in building speaker cables.
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What's the purpose of the ESR paper strip used in the construction of these cables? I'm not familiar with this concept in building speaker cables.
Check it out: https://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/product/ers
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I've been really impressed with these cables. Danny made a set of 8 ft cables for me about six months ago and I've been enjoying them since. Excellent clarity and imaging, with a nice neutral sound.
I just ordered a kit to make another pair of shorter cables to use with my monoblocks which sit right behind the speakers.
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Maybe the ers paper is for the amp end terminations? Electronics will emit a lot of crud(non scientific term)
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I just received my kit, are there instruction on applying the ers paper any place? Everything else is well covered in Rock Balls posts.
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I just received my kit, are there instruction on applying the ers paper any place? Everything else is well covered in Rock Balls posts.
The paper gets wrapped around just before the conductors split into the +and - groups. It goes underneath the large heat shrink.
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Wow, this is a great thread. I've been in the market for new cables and this will do the trick for me. Thanks
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https://www.tequipment.net/Ideal45-174.html
This is a case where you get what you pay for. They make a less expensive version that doesn't have the special mil-spec die.
My cheaper wire strippers tore up the wire.
Whoa. You can get a thermal wire stripper from eBay in good used condition for around $100 that should do the trick as well.
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The instructional information in the first post and pictures were so good that I had to make it a sticky.
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Ill probably be putting my order for a set over the weekend! :thumb:
(Congratulations on the sticky!)
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Ill probably be putting my order for a set over the weekend! :thumb:
Smart move.
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Think I'll be placing an order over the weekend as well and possibly use some KLE bananas I already have on hand.
Does anyone know if the copper is OCC or OFC?
Wig :thumb:
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Is there someone on the forum who could terminate them for me, for a reasonable price? I love DIY and used to be an electrician, so it is frustrating to need help with something so simple, but I am a quadriplegic due to an accident and have very little use of my arms/hands now.
Thanks in advance!
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123, Whereabouts are you located?
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Ordered 12' (6' per side) of the 16-strand cable with tube connectors & banana plugs it'll be my project for next week! :thumb:
Really interested to see how much of a difference it makes, compared to my cheap 12 gague zipcord. :D
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123, Whereabouts are you located?
Hi Chilkoot, I'm in NJ Near Philadelphia
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Ordered 12' (6' per side) of the 16-strand cable with tube connectors & banana plugs it'll be my project for next week! :thumb:
Really interested to see how much of a difference it makes, compared to my cheap 12 gague zipcord. :D
Cool! Do your speakers already have the tube connector installed, or are you upgrading those as well?? I'm wondering if it is possible to easily replace the stock binding posts on KEF LS50 Metas.
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Cool! Do your speakers already have the tube connector installed, or are you upgrading those as well?? I'm wondering if it is possible to easily replace the stock binding posts on KEF LS50 Metas.
Yup! My XLS didn't originally have on my kit, but I did upgrade them a few weeks ago & i can easily use either connection or as needed.
Is imagine upgrading the LS50 with Tube connectors is possible, but i dont have any direct experience with them personally, it will likely require drilling out the binding posts to fit the tube connectors.
Alternatively, you can drill out a 2nd set of holes & have the binding posts connect to the tube connetors then connect to the crossover so you can easily switch back cand forth to compare the differences.
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Hello,
Why would someone choose the 24 strand over the 16 strand cable?
Does it have something to do with high current amps or longer speaker runs?
Thanks
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Why would someone choose the 24 strand over the 16 strand cable?
Larger cross section = less resistance lengthwise.
Does it have something to do with high current amps or longer speaker runs?
Potentially yes, but not necessarily. Esthetics also play a role.
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Here is another question:
PTFE tubing is often used inside braided cables to lower their capacitance, right? Why would you opt for synthetic rope instead?
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Here is another question:
PTFE tubing is often used inside braided cables to lower their capacitance, right? Why would you opt for synthetic rope instead?
I believe Danny mentioned it in his latest video, being that the rope is more flexible than PTFE. But you can alway use your own preferred materials as you see fit, even if its none at all & simply compressed cable like rockball did with his personal set.
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Looks like Danny sold out of his banana plugs so my order is on hold until more come in. :(
Probably would have gone with spades if my Sprout had regular binding post, but it's just holes for banana plugs that are a little too big for tube connectors. But it'll be well worth the wait, & I'm excited for the A/B comparisons! :thumb:
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Looks like Danny sold out of his banana plugs so my order is on hold until more come in. :(
Probably would have gone with spades if my Sprout had regular binding post, but it's just holes for banana plugs that are a little too big for tube connectors. But it'll be well worth the wait, & I'm excited for the A/B comparisons! :thumb:
Depending on the length of the back order, may be a good idea to have the cabling shipped to start the tedious preparation for your bananas :thumb:
Wig
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Depending on the length of the back order, may be a good idea to have the cabling shipped to start the tedious preparation for your bananas :thumb:
Wig
I'm not that worried about it, I'm pretty patient, plus with the holidays coming fast I've got enough to keep up with for the time being.
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Is ESR tape applied to both ends of the speaker cable?
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Is ESR tape applied to both ends of the speaker cable?
Yep, it's placed at the split on each end.
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I took some measurements a few days ago on a 12' cable with and without the rope added.
The rope did drop the capacitance of the cable.
Also we just got in a LOT more spades and banana plugs. So all is in stock and shipping now.
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I took some measurements a few days ago on a 12' cable with and without the rope added.
The rope did drop the capacitance of the cable.
Also we just got in a LOT more spades and banana plugs. So all is in stock and shipping now.
Woo! I saw that my order shipped yesterday, gunna make for a fun Sunday :thumb:
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Got my kit (16 strand version) yesterday, got myself some rope, and spent the afternoon assembling, feeding, twisting, soldering etc, & now it's all done! :thumb:
(No process pics tho cuz im feeling lazy today. :P )
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216752&size=large)
I went with Tube Connectors and banana plugs.
Honestly the hardest part was finding rope. Most places didnt carry 5/8" rope, or if they did it was poor quality or an ugly color like yellow or blue. I think i had to drive to 5 locations to find something usable.. the only polyester/cotton rope i found was 1/4" so i went with black polyethylene.
What I learned:
- Order at least 1 extra foot for every 6 feet of length you think you'll need. I ordered 12', and with the rope inserted each half shrank to roughly 5'4" cables. Luckily, just enough length for my needs.
Better to have too much than not enough! :D
- 5/8" rope is probably a better option for the 24-strand model, while 3/8" or 1/2" rope being better for the 16-strand version.
- Have decent wire strippers. Mine are old and worn out, so I had a couple issues with either shredding the jacket, or cutting some of the wire along with it.
-Make sure your ends are even before soldering on connectors and the heat shrink,
How they sound:
Simply put; AMAZING. :o
My previous upgrade adding tube connectors to my XLS added a ton of clarity. A huge step up from bare wire to be sure.
These cables had all that extra clarity, but also added something i have only ever really heard when I listened to Danny's NX-Tremes, DEPTH & WIDTH in the soundstage.
Even in the near field at my desk, there's much better imaging and soundstage now, esp front to back, where you can easily place how far away an instrument is, or where its moving.
So far, I've only listened to 2 songs so far, & I was impressed how easy it was to pick out these differences, im absolutely thrilled, and am so excited to spend more time hearing what more my music has to offer! :thumb:
Just like with my conclusion with Danny's Tube connestors, if currently you're in the fence about getting these and making a pair for yourself, I 100% recommend it! :thumb:
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These look like a nice set of speaker cables should be a fun project to build. But the use of the ERS cloth makes no sense to me. Its been my long understanding speaker cables are NOT susceptible to RMI/EMI so what possible benefit could come from this addition? Also has anyone tried using teflon tubing or any tubing for that matter instead of the rope concept. The video with Danny demonstrating the build mentions there was a difference but doesn't go on to say what that audible difference might be.
Thanks.
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That ERS cloth is like a sponge that soaks up RF noise.
I have tried Teflon tubing. It works well and sounds good, but is not very flexible.
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Thanks for the response! Understood on the use of tubing, makes sense. I do believe cables make a difference but have a few more questions.
I watched your video measuring cables as an antennae and while I do not mean any disrespect I am still skeptical how the implementation of the ERS cloth could possibly make a difference with speaker cables. After all this is not how speaker cables are actually used, but rather connected to an impedance load as opposed to two leads in open air. If any of those speaker cables had been connected to either a 4ohm or 8 ohm resistor (on the open ends) implying something similar to a speaker load would they still have served as an antennae?
Has anyone ever measured the capacitance of these cables? Seems as though capacitance on the cables might be very high and troublesome for some amplifiers inducing oscillation.
Thanks
That ERS cloth is like a sponge that soaks up RF noise.
I have tried Teflon tubing. It works well and sounds good, but is not very flexible.
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Here are a couple build pics of the 16 strand GR cables.
Very pleased with them. The blisters from twisting and stripping wires have almost fully healed....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217726)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217727)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217728)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217729)
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The company known for braiding their cables started this over 40 years ago because they found traditional cables could pick up rfi/emi. While capacitance is higher than average inductance is fairly low. Cables like these have been around for years and if there were major problems with amplifiers they would have likely been identified by now.
Even an engineer at Belden confirmed that braiding and teflon insulation are ideal for speaker cables (although he differs in overall cable geometry.)
Personally, I’ve been a fan of braided cables for over 20 years and prefer them over others I’ve tried.
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...I am still skeptical how the implementation of the ERS cloth could possibly make a difference with speaker cables.
There's a simple test you can do to demonstrate to yourself the value of ERS -- build a set of speaker cables and listen. Then apply a small amount of ERS to the ends and listen again. Report your results in this thread. If there's any improvement at all, it could be very subtle, and that would be great.
With many things audio, you gotta use experience, not intelligence. The hobby itself makes no sense at all. It's like chasing windmills.
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Here's my understanding of the ESR strips. They're only applied at the points where the the cable is split.
The woven nature of the cable naturally rejects EMI/RFI. But that is lost at the point where the cables are unwoven and separated into their individual strands at each end. And since each end is now shifting, so are the small magnetic fields each wire produces. That point is where they will be most susceptible to RFI/EMI. By adding the ESR strips at those points, you reduce the likelihood of any interference being a problem.
As far capacitance, I'm not aware, I'd have to look into how to test that since i do have a set of the 16-strand cables..
they sound fantastic tho tbh. :P
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What is the combined gauge of each leg of the 16 and 24 strand cable that Danny sells?
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I think I read that the 16 strand ends up at 9 per side.
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I think I read that the 16 strand ends up at 9 per side.
Curious where you saw that. Page one of this thread indicated that the Kimber 8TC is 9awg per channel, but I'm curious about this cable since we are not 100% sure it's the exact same cable that Kimber uses.
Rock Ball, did you notice how many different gauge wires were in each conductor?
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I believe Danny mentioned in the video that the 24 strand cable came to roughly 9 gague? So the 16-strand is probably closer to 12 I'm guessing. Its 1/3 the # of wires, so probably equivalent to 3 gagues smaller.
Having worked with the 16-strand cable myself, I remember there being 2 or 3 large strands, 1 medium & the rest were all quite small.
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It came as a responses to a thread I started.
“If you are going to use the tube connectors, I like that the 16 strand cable properly fits into the male tube connector. And 8 strands of this wire adds up to 9 gauge. That should be big enough for most anything. Also, if someone has tight spaces and/or bends, the smaller cable may be easier to work with.”
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Just curious what is the advantage, if any, of the tube connectors? I've been at this hobby for many years and this is the first time I've seen these, bananas of course which are sort of similar but still not quite the same.
FWIW in the conversation, last night I taped a couple of strips to the end of my existing speaker cables at the amp connection only. I could not hear any difference with or without. My cables are some older PS Audio Statements massive heavy gauge stuff probably 6 AWG or at least 8 AWG if memory serves me correct. Over the years I've tried a number of other speaker cables but none of them have outperformed these in my system. One thing PSA did in those days was impregnating the sheathing with particles of ferrite, but I don't think they shielded them. Need to go back and find the specs to be sure about that.
Thanks
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Tube connectors are about as close as you can get to running wire directly from your amp to the crossovers.
The internal wiring is crimped and soldered to the female connector, with the same done on the speaker cable/male end. The cable feeds all the way to the tip of the male connector and is then crimped and soldered, so that when inserted, the tip of the male end directly touches the end of the wire inside the female end. (Naughty, I know :P)
They remove any extra mass & connection points used in standard binding posts. (i.e. nuts, bolts etc)
On my X-LS, I only had the binding post cups and cheap 12 gague zip cord, with banana plugs on the speaker end.
I later upgraded to tube connectors, still using the same cheap zip cord & the difference was immediate, much better clarity & detail across the board.
Then when I made the decision to make a pair of Danny's new 16-strand cable kits, I used tube connectors and banana plugs & polypropylene rope in the core. The jump was just as noticable, tho in a different way, they added lots depth to the recording, and I caught the difference within just a couple seconds of the first song.
With my recently purchased X-Statiks I only have binding posts and the stock AV123 crossover, and despite using the same drivers, i could tell that it lacks the clarity of my XLS. Even with the better cables, I gained better depth and imaging, but was still missing the same level of detail or clarity.
I know diminishing returns definitely kick in pretty quick with cables, and I've only ever used Zipcord until recently, and I've never heard your cables to truely compare, but each jump was bigger than I expected.
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Danny,
What country is this cable made in? Just curious.
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Danny,
What country is this cable made in? Just curious.
China.
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China.
Thank you. I'm really liking the thought of making of these cables. I actively biamp my Maggie 3.6Rs and originally thought that the 16 conductor version would work fine since there will be two runs per channel, but would there be a downside to going with the 24 conductor cables? I'm sure the answer is that it depends, but I'm throwing this out there in case anyone has any ideas.
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Any suggestions on the best connection for the amp side of the cables? Regular bananas seem to defeat the purpose of tube connectors.
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Any suggestions on the best connection for the amp side of the cables? Regular bananas seem to defeat the purpose of tube connectors.
Depends on your amp, & if you're willing to mod it..
Some people really like spades, others swear by bananas..
My little PS-Audio Sprout 100 only works with bananas, but the cable itself was still a big step up over my old zipcord with Tube connectors & low mass bananas.
Bigger amps can be modded to support tube connectors, but it will obviously void any warranty or support on the amp, but it should also add even more clarity to the setup.
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Beautiful work! I'd love to hear them someday, but I've spent enough money for the time being.. :P
Ill stick to my cheap zipcord for now... :P
They look fantastic well done
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Just put together a pair of 24 strand cables w/ pin connectors and have another pair ready to solder. I have an LFD integrated amp that will accept pins, my Coda amp probably won't. Pins are kind of loose in my current speakers, (kind of obvious that it was dumb to order pins for both ends in hindsight... assumed they would work well w/ most binding posts). For the second set thinking it might be best to order 8 banana terminals from Danny. Hoping someone can weigh in on how pin connectors compare w/ bananas and maybe why one is better than the other.
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If you're going to do banana plugs, the best out there (IMO) are the KLEI you can get at Parts Connexion. The fact that they are so inexpensive is just gravy:
https://www.partsconnexion.com/KLEI-83432.html
The second best are the low mass banana plugs from ETI that you can get at VH Audio. The only downside is they are less robust (the plastic is prone to bending if you are not careful):
https://www.vhaudio.com/bayonet.html
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Thanks Tyson!
After seeing this, http://www.image99.net/blog/files/f6ae775e30339e2b0375b739988237b7-77.html The KLEI bananas look pretty good. The 12 strands of copper wire that each male end will get soldered to is in total an 8 gauge conductor. Not sure if the KLEI bananas can take that much wire. It seems like maybe six strands can go into one barrel and the other six can go into the second barrel (the second one that would usually be used to allow for bi-wiring). Do you know if this is a viable option?
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I just twisted my speaker wire so that it sort of came to a point (was thinner at the top) and then used that and soldered the rest.
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I'm constructing a pair of 24 strand cables w/tube connectors and ran into a soldering gun tip issue. I have a Weller 9400PKS that came with some cheapo tips, one of which broke after my second soldering job. Luckily the kit came with a couple other tips but they're not really the right tool for the job. Soldering iron needs to get HOT quickly to do this right or the polyethylene jackets can get too hot, discolor, and ultimately become brittle.
I'm considering upgrading to a better soldering iron now.
Any recommendations on a good quality 200W or higher soldering iron/gun?
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I just got my set of cables done. Overall I'm very impressed with the quality for the price! I haven't been able to listen to them yet because I don't have my NX-treme's built yet and don't have any other speakers with tube connectors.
I did want to just mention a few things that I think could improve this kit if Danny or someone else at GR research is reading this. First, the solder I received was only about half as much solder as I needed to do both of my cables. Not a big deal, but it would have been nice since it's included to have enough to finish the job. Second, and this is the important one to me, the red and white heat shrink tubing included in the kit is just too small. It just barely fits over the separated strands. I ended up lubing my wires with wire pulling lubricant in an attempt to pull the heat shrink down as far as possible, but it just didn't go far enough. I spent almost as long trying to pull heat shrink as I did on the rest of the cables! Some slightly larger heat shrink would make these a breeze to build.
Can't wait to listen to them!
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I posted some assembly tips for this same speaker cable kit on an outside page at the link below. I also posted a little bit of overview and some basic specifications. I figure i'd share those tips here in case they can be of assistance to anyone assembling these.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224852)
https://ezeescrossovers.com/braided-speaker-cable-assembly (https://ezeescrossovers.com/braided-speaker-cable-assembly)
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I'm constructing a pair of 24 strand cables w/tube connectors and ran into a soldering gun tip issue. I have a Weller 9400PKS that came with some cheapo tips, one of which broke after my second soldering job. Luckily the kit came with a couple other tips but they're not really the right tool for the job. Soldering iron needs to get HOT quickly to do this right or the polyethylene jackets can get too hot, discolor, and ultimately become brittle.
I'm considering upgrading to a better soldering iron now.
Any recommendations on a good quality 200W or higher soldering iron/gun?
Just go and get a good one:
https://www.zoro.com/weller-solder-gun-300200-watts-120v-d650/i/G0934744/?msclkid=0c92ca06a92610e18b77aaadb97643b9&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA_US_Bing_SSC&utm_term=4586131721909142&utm_content=All%20Products&gclid=0c92ca06a92610e18b77aaadb97643b9&gclsrc=3p.ds
They last for years when used as most non-pros will use a soldering gun. Having used them in an industrial application 3 - 4 years is the average life expectancy. They are good ones. Make sure to buy some extra elements.
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Well, I didn't buy a new soldering iron but rather followed an excellent tech tip from "Mr Carlson's Lab" channel on YouTube: https://youtu.be/79uD6XwBg5E
Basically, I took a 3" piece of 14 gauge copper from some extra electrical in-wall wiring (Romex) and hooked up to my Weller 9400PKS as described in the video. It turned out to be an outstanding tip (no pun intended) for this soldering gun and I was able to achieve high heat and phenomenal results with my 24-strand speaker cable project. The bundle of 12 wires wedged into/wrapped around the tube connector as described in this thread was heated very quickly and melted solder traveled through the entire inner diameter of the tube connectors all the way to the tip. This ensures positive contact through the entire length of the tube connector and made my project go much faster! This tip should work for any gun-type soldering device as outlined in the video.
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Whoa. You can get a thermal wire stripper from eBay in good used condition for around $100 that should do the trick as well.
Home Depot has 8-20 AWG Solid /10-22 AWG Stranded wire stripper for $30. I've used this and older version for years and no problems they are both like new. This newer one has wire cutter in the center.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Katapult-Wire-Stripper-and-Cutter-for-8-20-AWG-Solid-and-10-22-AWG-Stranded-Wire-11063W/204660476?MERCH=REC-_-PLP_Browse-_-NA-_-204660476-_-N&
I just completed my GR cable build with spade/banana connectors and ended up using the Vise-Grip Wire Stripping Tool/Wire Cutter, 8-Inch (2078309) amazon $10.98 https://www.amazon.com/VISE-GRIP-Stripping-Cutter-8-Inch-2078309/dp/B095KJV33D/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=irwin%2Bwire%2Bstripper&qid=1626632564&sr=8-3&th=1.
Because with the Klein auto stripper (same as the Ideal but 1/8th the cost) I started cutting the odd strand. On the Irwin I ended up using the smallest hole to just cut the insulation with one squeeze on the handles, then I used the next smallest hole #18 to push the insulation off. Sometimes I would do the pushing with a thumb nail.
As much as I absolutely appreciate the build attention to detail and photos here by Rock Ball I stuck with GR's recommendation on the 24-strand cable to simply grab the first 6 conductors to insert them into the connector, rather than separate out the larger individual strands. Doing the separation does give a nicer build for sure, but that's where I drew the line.
The spade connectors have a slightly larger hole that the bananas or tubes. I was able to spiral all 24-conductors together, then after soldering used the knarly teeth on electricians pliers to gently taper the end, clip to the right length, insert, crimp and final solder.
The bananas came with single set-screws. I tossed these and used solder to fill - this seems to work nicely. To do this again I would insert 9 conductors instead of 6, and wrap the remaining 3, as I believe 8 or 9 conductors will fit snugly. As discussed above I also ran out of solder, fortunately I had some Cardas on hand which is likely the same stuff. Cardas Soldering Wire Quad Eutectic Silver Solder with rosin flux 1/4 lbs $32 at Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Cardas-Soldering-Eutectic-Silver-Solder/dp/B015X68HXW/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwos-HBhB3EiwAe4xM9xnMsUSEmOZJqsfo0iXTqUHdRZiKgJXqInzTzvxlUnJX8V_CklAqmBoC79cQAvD_BwE&hvadid=410003278523&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9032587&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2556977277036610102&hvtargid=kwd-3660914565&hydadcr=24662_11410883&keywords=cardas+solder&qid=1626635814&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A1O44Z2C3OZAM9&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFTVFYySzhSTldFVDQmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxODkxMTkyS0pRNTZRTVRQWkIzJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0ODgxNzIxVEZRUTdQVDVCTUlLJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== (https://www.amazon.com/Cardas-Soldering-Eutectic-Silver-Solder/dp/B015X68HXW/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwos-HBhB3EiwAe4xM9xnMsUSEmOZJqsfo0iXTqUHdRZiKgJXqInzTzvxlUnJX8V_CklAqmBoC79cQAvD_BwE&hvadid=410003278523&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9032587&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2556977277036610102&hvtargid=kwd-3660914565&hydadcr=24662_11410883&keywords=cardas+solder&qid=1626635814&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A1O44Z2C3OZAM9&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFTVFYySzhSTldFVDQmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxODkxMTkyS0pRNTZRTVRQWkIzJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0ODgxNzIxVEZRUTdQVDVCTUlLJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==)
I am not sure why, but unlike Danny's video where the ESR tape wrapped around the cable more than once, mine barely went around once. I assume I should have wrapped it past where the rope ended where the overall diameter is smaller. I wonder what the impact might be on RFI/EMI and if I need to move it. I just bought a Rigol DS1054X scope and am very curious if it can measure the differences.
I had the same problem covered above with the heat shrink tube barely fitting over the joints. I did not resort to lube but it took a lot of coaxing.
At the end of the day if I were to do it again I would probably go with the 16-strand. With 16-strands they would all fit into the connectors. No doubt going with the 24-strand is an expression of my own OCD :D I do have a 12-ft cables (closer to 11'-1" with large cotton rope installed) and what I understand is a high-current speaker/amp setup, but I bet the 16-strand would be fine.
Total time spent was 3 hours on the first cable and and 2 on the second. After this learning curve I reckon I could do them both in under 2 hours the next time :roll:
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Hi All,
Any thoughts on using this cable for bi-wiring?
6 strands each?
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The wire itself is so aesthetically pleasing, these builds deserve an attractive splitter and/or pants.
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I was lucky enough to have Rock Ball bring over his speaker cables today. My amps and speakers have tube connectors so they were all ready to go.
These cables are a nice,noticeable upgrade. I was hearing more of everything good I am accustom to hearing. And they are not insane priced. You
just need to put in some effort to get them assembled. Overall, a pretty amazing deal I think.
(I'm currently putzing around with turntable upgrades - I'm leaving tube rolling and audio cables to last in my todo list)
Thanks again, RB!
:thumb:
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I was lucky enough to have Rock Ball bring over his speaker cables today.
Actually, I was the lucky one. Ron used the NRD LOTS technique to setup his speakers, which were custom built by Mike Lundy. The sound stage was absolutely incredible.
I was so impressed that as soon as I got home, I disassembled my home theater seating and moved it back. Then I brought my speakers about 2 feet further into the room. Wow! It was an incredible improvement and it cost me nothing.
Thank you Ron!
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Hi All,
Any thoughts on using this cable for bi-wiring?
6 strands each?
I just shot a video on bi-wiring and bi-amping. It will be out next week.
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Besides the Electra male tube connectors. The best sounding, more universally accepted speaker or amp plugs that I have found have been from Tuneful Cables. They are low mass beryllium plated solid silver banana plugs. No bolt to screw in or huge bulky plastic housing; just a banana sized metal sleeve that is relatively thin. Also they are cryogenically treated, if that helps, the science makes sense to me but I can’t say I was like oh I hear something extra that I’ve always been missing until cryo treated banana plugs. They were about $30 on Amazon for a set of 4. These may not be the exact ones but look just like the ones in the photo.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=235584)
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Besides the Electra male tube connectors. The best sounding, more universally accepted speaker or amp plugs that I have found have been from Tuneful Cables. They are low mass beryllium plated solid silver banana plugs.
They probably work fine, but there's no way these things have as much as a speck of beryllium. Just marketing nonsense.
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Don't mean to nitpick in a mean way. But, likely a Silver alloy as pure silver is too soft to use for anything such as this where tension is needed. That does not mean they are not good.
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Actually, I think they are made of a beryllium copper alloy (like the Multi Contact LS4 banana plugs) with silver plating. According to Amazon and Ebay they are made by Tuneful Cables in Brooklyn.
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I ordered a 16-strand cable kit but wondering if anyone has tips on feeding the rope thru. Obviously, I've pushed the wire together to make the center diameter as wide as possible, but I get the rope about a foot and it starts binding. I'm trying to twist the rope as I go, making it tighter, but again, as soon as the distance gets greater than a foot, not much progress is being made.
I did wrap tape around the rope end to make it more pointed, but the rope is so limp...
(No jokes about my limp rope!) :duh:
Anyone have any tips?
Thanks.
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They guy who makes our power cables uses a drumstick to feed the rope through th ecable. But any sort of rod or dowel should work just fine and make it a lot easier to feed through.
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I think I 've figured it out. It's a ying and yang thing. 'Push' the rope forward while compressing the braided wire, enlarging the diameter, then pulling the rope. Maybe 1/2" or 3/4" of gain each time. So not fast but it's working.
I tried using an aluminum straw as a tool but it just didn't seem to get me anywhere - the rope just compressed instead of moving.
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I use a fish tape wire puller. Designed for pulling wires through walls etc. $10 from Amazon it's a long stiff wire coated with slippery plastic and is very easy to thread through even a long length of braided cable. Then connect your rope to the end of the fish tape and pull it through.
Very fast and easy.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KGCCXCZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KGCCXCZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
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I've not built these,but seems like a splicing fid might be helpful. Here's a cheapie set. Google will bring lots more.
https://www.amazon.com/SGT-KNOTS-Plastic-Splicing-Fids/dp/B082YC9K3H
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I had some rubber hose the same diameter of the rope and duct taped it to the end of it. Helped with pulling it through, no doubt.... Then after I got the rope in there nice and good, I decided to make them without the rope, so I pulled them out - in comparison, this type of pulling out was quite easy :lol:
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Have 2 questions related to this subject:
1. Tube plugs - can they be used to plug into "regular" speaker/amp binding posts that accept banana plugs? or do they only fit into the matching Tube connector
2. China sourced cable - hope this will not be too controversial to ask... I see a few Chinese sources that can sell direct what looks like identical braided cables. I guess Danny did some sourcing before selecting the one he is using. That said, if I am willing to risk it and try sourcing on my own to reduce the cost as I'm out of budget for my audio this year, what should I be looking at? or as long as it's braided and looks like decent copper I am ok to try
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236841)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236842)
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I apologize if this question has been answered:
If building a biwire set of cables is the best way to just buy the 24 wire cable and split it 12 wires to each connector (speaker end only).
thanks.
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1. Tube plugs - can they be used to plug into "regular" speaker/amp binding posts that accept banana plugs?
Yes.
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Hey Early B.
Have you tried the tube plug in regular binding posts? I just tried a new tube plug with 5 different binding posts. On some the fit is a bit loose. It did not feel correct on any of them. I would not use them that way.
Danny, what is your official stance on this? I looked at your tube connector product web page to see if something like this is mentioned, but it is not.
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Male tube connector ends do technically "fit" into binding posts, some better than others, but it's definitely not a secure connection, especially for a horizontal pair.
The only exception would be a binding post that clamps inwards as it is tightened down, though those are rather uncommon.
Male ends work best with the female tube connectors. But female tube connectors will also accept banana plugs, tho most aren't long enough to touch the that wire connects to the crossover.
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Does the rope have to be made of cotton or is a paracord (Nylon) also legit?
Also, does it matter if the rope is twisted or braided? most cotton ropes I can find that are thick enough are twisted.
Many thanks!
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Does the rope have to be made of cotton or is a paracord (Nylon) also legit?
Also, does it matter if the rope is twisted or braided? most cotton ropes I can find that are thick enough are twisted.
Many thanks!
1/2" Cotton rope is the standard as it's what Danny thought aounded best.
My current pair of 16-strand cables has 5/8" polyethylene braided rope that was a pain to feed through, but it works just fine.
You can use any sort of rope you want, or you can leave the rope out altogether and push it together so its expanded with just air on the inside.
The rope we use and sell with the cables is twisted. Some of the early cables that Danny made used 1/4" braided nylon or polyester rope.
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So, what are the 2" long white sleeves included with the kit? There's 8 of them, so I assume they go at each termination end. What I'm not sure of is will they shrink if / when I put heat to them. I just tried a hair dryer but it doesn't get very warm. I've got a torch...
For the record, these are different than the red and white heat shrink to color the termination ends.
Some basic kit instructions would really come in handy.
Thanks to anyone who can help answer.
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Yeah - those are indeed to cover the wires after the split. They are heat shrink.
Normally you use a heat gun, which is basically a hair dryer with higher temperature and a narrow nozzle. I would not use a torch.
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1/2" Cotton rope is the standard as it's what Danny thought aounded best.
My current pair of 16-strand cables has 5/8" polyethylene braided rope that was a pain to feed through, but it works just fine.
You can use any sort of rope you want, or you can leave the rope out altogether and push it together so its expanded with just air on the inside.
The rope we use and sell with the cables is twisted. Some of the early cables that Danny made used 1/4" braided nylon or polyester rope.
I think you will find that an organic core will sound better than any man made polymer due to the effects of dielectric absorption. I know that common knowledge dictates that the Teflon insulation is the "barrier" for DA, but in practice the total volume of polymers is the DA sink. DA smears and blunts transients and then rings leading to a slight lack of focus. Go ahead give it a try. Also, if your speaker cables are resting on carpeting of any kind (wool being the worst) raise them up with any non-plastic thing you may have at least 3" above the carpet. Static and DA at play...
Go ahead. Give one or both a try. It's like chicken soup. It couldn't hurt! :lol:
Yep. Me... Carlos :thumb:
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Some basic kit instructions would really come in handy.
Thanks to anyone who can help answer.
Yeah, I wonder how many who buy these kits would like some basic instructions included. I know I would. And I am not new to DIY.
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Just would like to say thanks to rock ball and Danny, plus everyone else for tips and tricks. This is the 24 strand, 21’ cut in half with rope and the secret sauce. Tube connectors on one end, banana on the other. I’m never making another pair again, I’ll pay Danny... 😂
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240863)
Squeaks
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Damn straight on the never making another pair again i had no idea id lose 12 plus hours doing this, and that was with an automatic wire stripper. But they are lovely sound great, i dont know how great yet mine aren’t even close to being broke in. Moved, and i decided it was time to repair the severely stripped screws in my speakers, so this is yet another awful project of taking my speakers apart and drilling inserting glueing drilling and inserting again,. Not to mention -unsoldering and soldering all the drivers back to the wiring.
Geese, it is worth it, but sometimes hard to see when you are stuck in the middle of one of these long projects. I forget what good hifi sounds like haven’t had my stereo in over a month.
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I made my original pair of 16 strand and it took me 6-8 hours To make them, nit including the time i needed to find some rope.
I made a new pair a few months ago & it took 4-ish hours to make them and they look much nicer.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240942)
Making prototype interconnects has been more annoying tbh.
I've just finished a 3rd pair and I'm burning them in now.
Here's a pair after feeding a 1/4" cotton rope through them:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240943)
And the tight space to install the wiring...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240944)
It's gotten easier, but it's still a pain, and the raw cable loses ~45% of it's length with the rope inserted. 7 feet of raw cable produced 2x 2' cables...
I've come up with an interesting tweak that we're really happy with. The trick now will be finding some good quality & affordable RCA ends to use in the final product. Currently I've been using the Neutrik "Pro-Fi" ends as they were pretty good quality without being expensive.
I have more cable on the way, and Danny has several sample ends on their way for us to try out in the coming weeks. :scratch:
(They likely won't be offered as DIY due to the pain they can be to make)
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Check out the Viborg RCA connectors, which are exceptional (and inexpensive).
Copper with gold plating:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203219215969?hash=item2f50cf2661:g:Q~YAAOSwSQpgSWjL
Copper with rhodium plating:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203452779176?hash=item2f5ebb0aa8:g:Xi4AAOSwFghgn3zm
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We have several RCA ends coming in we plan to try out from different manufacturers to see which version suites our needs best.
I just received a version of the cable hoping it would be easier to feed a rope through, and it is, but it's also ugly compared to the other style. :duh:
so I've got another 10M of the original cable coming in about 3 weeks.
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I used the KLE RCA connectors. They were great to work with. They have low mass connections for the wire and the soldering points are spaced apart nicely, making things simple to work with. Very tight connection to my amp and DAC as well. They also sound quite good to my ears as well.
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Hey y’all, I have some 12 strand GR research speaker cables I built. These were made with tube connectors and silver/copper banana plugs. They measure about 9 feet each after construction.
I had about 2 feet of leftover speaker cable that I didn’t use and wanted to see how much length is added to the cable with the braiding technique. Turned out 26.5” braided, unwound and straightened was 30.5”,
about 115% of the length.
This makes my 9 foot pair about 10.5’.
I have some extra length in my set that I built in for possible setup location changes. Using cable risers adds a little more possible slack.
I’m wondering if it would make a noticeable difference in performance if I terminated one end with about 14” less cable (roughly 16” considering the braid.) Leaving 9’ cables rather than a 10.5’ pair
There are elements I feel that these cables are limiting my speakers sound in mostly treble and upper midrange presence and attack. I do only have about 25 hours play time on them and maybe only 10 since I set up my system after moving.
Sure there are other considerations that could be the culprit like power quality here or my room, but if this unnecessary length can rob performance I’d sure like to know.
I know this scenario can definitely effect performance with regularly constructed speaker cable, but I’ve no experience with cables designed like this, and in such a low gauge.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=241559)
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Oh, copper in teflon takes a long time to burn in. At least 100 hours. Don't judge them at all before then.
You can make them shorter if you want to but it won't affect the sound much.
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I recently moved too and when I got my system up it definitely sounded off. I ran a brown noise track on repeat and let it play for a day and everything sounded better the next day. I still had some speaker adjustments to work out which also helped a lot. I wouldn’t worry about the cables too much.
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As a follow p my post let me think about what could be affecting performance. Turned out my power cable was touching the wall twice and i placed some spacers there and wow.
Good to know on the burn in i guessed maybe more like 50. I did think that these were coated in polyethylene but I’m no expert on it. I do know the rope used in the center is cotton.
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Received my pair of 24 strand cable's last week, and have been burning them in.
I had a decent set of audioquest rocket biwire 88's, but they are no competion for these 24 strand cable's.
The biggest difference is the seemingly effortless way they do everything so natural. Very good instrument seperation, more silent background, great resolution. Even the soundstage improved. I didn't know my old cable's where in fact a bottleneck which held my system down.
O yeah, and the're giving my system more speed also. I 've also seen the basic untweaked Chineese versions off course, but i don't mind paying a proffessional extra for doing actual research, and taking things up a notch or two.
Long after the price is forgotten, the quality remains.
Chuffed to bits with them.
Big thanks to Danny and Hobbs.
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Would there be any disadvantage to Tech Flex sleeving these cables? My reasons are mostly aesthetic.
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Would there be any disadvantage to Tech Flex sleeving these cables? My reasons are mostly aesthetic.
Kimber Kable uses tech flex on their top of the line $25,000 cables so… no.
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We also use it on our B16 & B24 power cables.
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Would there be any disadvantage to Tech Flex sleeving these cables? My reasons are mostly aesthetic.
Techflex will absolutely have an effect on the sound of the speaker cables. It is not recommended.
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Kimber Kable uses tech flex on their top of the line $25,000 cables so… no.
Yes, it negatively effects their cables too.
I am sure you've heard all of that positive benefit everyone keeps talking about from lifting the cable off of the floor. The Techflex has the same or greater effect than the effect of the floor.
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Techflex will absolutely have an effect on the sound of the speaker cables. It is not recommended.
I got bored this afternoon and decided to experiment with this idea. I didn't want to believe there would be a difference, but there totally was. Biggest thing I noticed was a lot more open, airy, effortless sound in the upper midrange. Well, I guess you learn something new every day. Thanks for the tip Danny. :thumb:
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I got bored this afternoon and decided to experiment with this idea. I didn't want to believe there would be a difference, but there totally was. Biggest thing I noticed was a lot more open, airy, effortless sound in the upper midrange. Well, I guess you learn something new every day. Thanks for the tip Danny. :thumb:
You are welcome.
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Nice work, these came out really good. I think I may try to make a set for myself as well.
Cheers,
Andy
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I made my original pair of 16 strand and it took me 6-8 hours To make them, nit including the time i needed to find some rope.
I made a new pair a few months ago & it took 4-ish hours to make them and they look much nicer.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240942)
Making prototype interconnects has been more annoying tbh.
I've just finished a 3rd pair and I'm burning them in now.
Hobbs,
Any update on the interconnects? Thinking of DIYing some in the near future, curious about the ones you built.
Thank you, Kelly
Here's a pair after feeding a 1/4" cotton rope through them:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240943)
And the tight space to install the wiring...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=240944)
It's gotten easier, but it's still a pain, and the raw cable loses ~45% of it's length with the rope inserted. 7 feet of raw cable produced 2x 2' cables...
I've come up with an interesting tweak that we're really happy with. The trick now will be finding some good quality & affordable RCA ends to use in the final product. Currently I've been using the Neutrik "Pro-Fi" ends as they were pretty good quality without being expensive.
I have more cable on the way, and Danny has several sample ends on their way for us to try out in the coming weeks. :scratch:
(They likely won't be offered as DIY due to the pain they can be to make)
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Hobbs,
Any update on the interconnects? Thinking of DIYing some in the near future, curious about the ones you built.
Thank you, Kelly
We're really happy with the results we've gotten so far. The most recent prototypes have already replaced Danny's previous Reality RCA cables and they also look a lot better than the early prototypes, sound better too. You can occasionally get a peek of them in the background of some of Danny's more recent videos.
We've sent some sample raw materials to one of our manufacturers to see if they can reproduce the cables based on my instructions, and a sample finished cable.
They're still more difficult/tedious to assemble than the speaker cables, requiring some specialized tools, so we're not currently planning to offer them them as a DIY kit.
XLR is also something I've been toying with, and I recently finished the first prototype pair but it's even more tedious, requiring a wire running through the middle of the cable by using a Teflon tube rather than rope, losing a lot of flexibility in the process. The other option is dividing the 8 strands into sets of 3-3-2 instead of 4-4+1, which will fix the flexibility issue, but will require knowing & maintaining which strands will be used for which pins.
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We're really happy with the results we've gotten so far. The most recent prototypes have already replaced Danny's previous Reality RCA cables and they also look a lot better than the early prototypes, sound better too. You can occasionally get a peek of them in the background of some of Danny's more recent videos.
We've sent some sample raw materials to one of our manufacturers to see if they can reproduce the cables based on my instructions, and a sample finished cable.
They're still more difficult/tedious to assemble than the speaker cables, requiring some specialized tools, so we're not currently planning to offer them them as a DIY kit.
XLR is also something I've been toying with, and I recently finished the first prototype pair but it's even more tedious, requiring a wire running through the middle of the cable by using a Teflon tube rather than rope, losing a lot of flexibility in the process. The other option is dividing the 8 strands into sets of 3-3-2 instead of 4-4+1, which will fix the flexibility issue, but will require knowing & maintaining which strands will be used for which pins.
Thank you for update, much appreciated!
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These are really great speaker cables. I made a pair too and have left them in my main system! Will share pics soon! Thanks,
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I have been lurking on this thread for a bit more than a year now. I made these cables using Denny's YouTube video, along with supplies I purchased on Amazon and AliExpress.
Specifically, I made the 8TC cables.
The cables turned out very well. Denny's instructions and advice on this thread and his video were helpful.
Before using the cables, I was listening via a NAD 7020e. The sound was nice, but when using my Raspberry Pi4 streamer and Schiit DAC, I couldn't help but notice a lot of subtle background noise. When listening to songs with quiet passages (for instance, CSN's "Delta" off the Daylight Again album) I would hear the annoying hiss of background noise. Almost like an audible shower head in the distance.
I knew I had a noise problem... clearly.
After creating a new ground for my system (a 6 foot long threaded rod ratcheted (by hand!) into the ground), the noise floor was still prevalent.
I've used a fair amount of speaker cables over the years. Some good, some bad. After making these 8TC cables, and connecting them to my system, I was absolutely astonished. The noise was gone. History. Inaudible. Listening to Delta is now a joy, as the hiss has been deleted by these cables.
I would say that stripping the jackets off the wire ends was the most difficult part. However, I purchased a nice wire stripper that made the job easy, and protected the copper wires themselves. After stripping and separating the wires, the assembly was rather easy. In fact, it was embarrassingly easy.
Luckily I owned a heat gun, so the heat shrink went on easily and is still showing no signs of separating.
For those who believe wires need burn in times, I have been using them for about 14 months now. They continue to be fantastic. I have since upgraded to a vintage McIntosh MA6100. The sound is perfect, and the noise floor so low I can't hear any hiss or noise when I am up next to the speakers (vintage Allison Acoustic LC-110s).
The investment in this project is laughably minimal. Seriously... less than $100. However, the payoff has been largest in my listening history.
If you are on the fence, or doubt these work, spend the money to find out. You will be impressed and become a believer.
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Who is this “Denny” you speak of? The proprietor of GR Research is DAnny Richie. :o Just a friendly heads-up. Welcome to the GR Research Circle.
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Hey all,
New to the forum group, but have done a couple of Danny's cross-over builds in the past.
He did a couple videos on my Epos ES 12 speakers a couple years ago (three?!)
I am in the process of building a few of these speaker wire/cables for my two systems, and for a couple friends systems for Christmas presents.
I wanted to experiment with using the 'magic sauce' ERS cloth material (using more of it, less of it), but didn't know if GR can sell it alone, or if there is a resource for it?
Many thanks.
Looking forward, (and NOT looking forward!) to many hours of stripping wires and stuffing rope!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259498)
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Hey all,
New to the forum group, but have done a couple of Danny's cross-over builds in the past.
He did a couple videos on my Epos ES 12 speakers a couple years ago (three?!)
I am in the process of building a few of these speaker wire/cables for my two systems, and for a couple friends systems for Christmas presents.
I wanted to experiment with using the 'magic sauce' ERS cloth material (using more of it, less of it), but didn't know if GR can sell it alone, or if there is a resource for it?
Many thanks.
Looking forward, (and NOT looking forward!) to many hours of stripping wires and stuffing rope!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259498)
If you're going to be doing a lot of wire stripping, do yourself a favor and get one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Stripper-Electrical-Klein-Tools-11063W/dp/B00BC39YFQ/
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If you're going to be doing a lot of wire stripping, do yourself a favor and get one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Stripper-Electrical-Klein-Tools-11063W/dp/B00BC39YFQ/
I second this suggestion, best stripper for the job!
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We do sell the ESR paper by itself, just give us a call :thumb:
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Holy cow, that is a GADGET!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the recommendation!!!
If you're going to be doing a lot of wire stripping, do yourself a favor and get one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Stripper-Electrical-Klein-Tools-11063W/dp/B00BC39YFQ/
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Oh awesome!!! I'll try calling tomorrow, but will likely be Monday.
Many thanks!!
We do sell the ESR paper by itself, just give us a call :thumb: