Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer

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Mariusz

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #60 on: 18 Jun 2010, 06:35 pm »
Seth
your welder's kit arrived installed in black Sensation today.
I helped myself with the cover and noticed the Sonicap upgrade kit, inclueding the bypass caps. I hope that my personal Sensation will come with all those goodies as well or ..... this baby is NOT going anywhere!!!
And that is NOT a threat.

P.S
very clean work
and ..... just to let you know -
battery supply did not come in the package.
Not sure if it suppose to or not? :scratch:
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Mariusz
 

mamba315

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Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #61 on: 19 Jun 2010, 12:29 am »
I have a few questions, very very basic in nature:

  • What does a buffer do?
  • Is the tube buffer an additional signal-path component, or is there an equivalent solid-state part that does "buffering" when the tube is bypassed/not installed?
  • Regarding the Sonicap bypass upgrade for the M901, what are the Sonicaps replacing and/or bypassing?


Anyone?

OzarkTom

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #62 on: 19 Jun 2010, 01:14 am »
tube shoot-out #3:

Sylvania 12au7 vs. RCA 5814

The RCA is silky smooth, it sounds more like the Mullard as a whole, but more open and detailed than the Mullard. It is addicting, but I still love the detail that the Sylvania gives. The added detail benefits the audiophile that listens to low volume levels.

The soundstage starts further back, not as wide as the Sylvania. If you need a warmer sound, but not as much as the Mullard, I would highly recommend this one. A big plus on the RCA, it glows so beutifully in the Sensation-a 9+ on the glow. I have my clear acrylic top on. The Sylvania barely glows, in the daytime I cannot see it glow at all.

I have a couple more tubes I will test, checking in on the Raytheons right now. Any difference in the 12ax7 and the 5814?


virtue

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Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #63 on: 19 Jun 2010, 02:29 am »
Mamba,

I'd asked Gary to reply but he seems too busy making amps!  Here's my whack at it.

>What does a buffer do?

Makes it tubey sounding without adding any gain.

> Is the tube buffer an additional signal-path component,

Yes.

> or is there an equivalent solid-state part that does "buffering" when the tube is bypassed/not installed?

No, not before the amplifier section.  However, on the way out of the unit we do have buffers today - op-amp buffers on the pre-outs.

> Regarding the Sonicap bypass upgrade for the M901, what are the Sonicaps replacing and/or bypassing?

By adding the "bypass" cap (over both other caps), you're changing the sonics of the caps.  That's as much as I know.  It's a cap in parallel with the others.  This is covered well in the GR Research forum apparently.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.  Maybe Gary or someone else will chime in.

dvenardos

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #64 on: 19 Jun 2010, 04:12 am »
By adding the "bypass" cap (over both other caps), you're changing the sonics of the caps.  That's as much as I know.  It's a cap in parallel with the others.  This is covered well in the GR Research forum apparently.
From an article on using bypass caps in speakers on the Skiing Ninja website:
http://www.skiingninja.com/Articles.asp?ID=149
Quote
Why use a 'by-pass cap'?
Think of a capacitor as an energy storage device. Capacitors will store and release energy and are often used for that very reason. In the loudspeaker application though we are wanting to use them for the capacitive effects and not their energy storage capabilities.

The larger the cap the more energy it can store. Also larger caps take longer to charge and to discharge this stored energy. Different types of caps store and release energy at different rates too. For instance electrolytic caps are more known as being fairly slow to charge and discharge compared to other types of caps. However they are much less expensive and are often used in loudspeakers especially if large values are needed. Polypropylene caps like those used in many speakers are a faster cap. Not all poly caps are the same though. The really good ones are considerably more expensive than the more commonly used types.

When an audio signal is sent through a cap there is a small amount of lag time from charge to discharge. Often with larger caps, even after they are discharged there is still a small charge that is left as it did not completely discharge. The smaller values typically used in speakers like AV123's x-ls are not too bad. But there is still always some signature to the caps in the signal path. The audible effect is a smearing of the music. Notes will have a little trailing edge to them that blend into the next note. Again the larger the cap value the greater this effect.

By-passing the caps on the board with a fast discharging cap like 0.1uF (really small value) Sonicap Gen II will effectively short the larger cap out. The capacitance is hardly changed but shorting the larger cap with the small one will discharge it very quickly.

What it does to the sound is reduce smearing. Music is cleaner with more dead space between notes. Many audiophiles refer to this as Blacker Blacks. Upper level detail and resolution is notably better as well.

antonio

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Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #65 on: 19 Jun 2010, 06:30 am »
yes, of course it was very laughing may confusion among english terms: welder and solder, but it was as laughing also that someone really thought that i would weld someting in my sensation :lol:

mamba315

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Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #66 on: 19 Jun 2010, 06:57 am »
Sorry I can't be more helpful.

You're too humble Seth; you definitely answered my questions!

And Don, thanks for pasting that info on bypass caps.  It's been very helpful for me in understanding this mod.  Now I want it!

JohnR

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #67 on: 19 Jun 2010, 07:51 am »
Any difference in the 12ax7 and the 5814?

Hi - I'm not sure what the question is asking exactly but these are very different tube types... What is the type of tube recommended by Gary? (I thought the Dodd buffer used the 6DJ8 type.)

TrungT

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #68 on: 19 Jun 2010, 08:08 am »
Sensation only use 12V tube.
 :wink:

JohnR

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #69 on: 19 Jun 2010, 08:25 am »
OK, good point, but there's still a big difference between 12AX7 and 12AU7 families...  :scratch: Really just wondering... and there is a method to my madness ;)

OzarkTom

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #70 on: 19 Jun 2010, 11:25 am »
Hi - I'm not sure what the question is asking exactly but these are very different tube types... What is the type of tube recommended by Gary? (I thought the Dodd buffer used the 6DJ8 type.)

Sorry, I noticed on Ebay that the Raytheon 5814 is priced much higher than the Raytheon 12ax7. I was wondering why the price difference. Availabilty or sound?

marvda1

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Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #71 on: 19 Jun 2010, 12:06 pm »
as far as 12au7's, a lot of people say the amperex 7316 (expensive) is the best sounding and there is the cbs/hytron 5814wa followed by the raytheon 5814wa.  there is also mention that the mullard 10m (expensive) is one of the best with the brimar 13d5 giving it a run for the money.

brother love

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #72 on: 19 Jun 2010, 02:31 pm »
You're too humble Seth; you definitely answered my questions!

And Don, thanks for pasting that info on bypass caps.  It's been very helpful for me in understanding this mod.  Now I want it!

You might want to check www.doddaudio.com for additional info re: passive tube buffers. This excerpt taken from the (2) tube buffer that Gary offers:

"Fast, detailed, way dynamic, nice tube warmth in the mids, accurate, but not analytical, smooth and well balanced, huge wide and deep soundstage with a life size image, and best of all INCREDIBLY musical! All of this can be tailored to your liking by rolling tubes."

I've always loved tube/ solid state hybrids. You get the best of both worlds. So this Sensation/ Dodd tube buffer combo really does sound like a perfecto match.  I once owned a tube/ mosfet Moscode 2ch amp & I rue the day that I ever got rid of it. Dumbest thing I ever did audio-wise. :duh:

Nuuk

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Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #73 on: 19 Jun 2010, 09:47 pm »
Quote
What does a buffer do?

Let me start by saying that I am not an electronics engineer, but I have been into DIY hi-fi for many years, and have been lucky enough to have been reviewing hi-fi for over five years. So I'll have a go at answering the question.

What is a buffer and what is its role in a hi-fi system? It is (usually) an active circuit that isolates one part of your hi-fi circuit (that's every thing in your hi-fi system) from another part. By isolating, I don't mean cutting them off from one another, we could do that more easily (and cheaply) by cutting the wires that join them together, but then we wouldn't have any sound! What the buffer does is stop one part of the circuit having a detrimental effect on another.

The main job that a hi-fi buffer does is 'sorting out' impedance mis-matches. Various parts of the hi-fi system have input and output impedances. Impedance is a bit like resistance but for AC signals (instead of DC). As a rule of thumb, the output impedance of a circuit should be about ten times lower than the input impedance of the circuit that comes after it. Something as simple as a pot has an input and output impedance but they are usually the same. So if we take the Sensation amplifier for example, if its input impedance is 100K (I don't know what it actually is) then the ideal impedance of the pot would be 10K. And if a DAC comes immediately before the pot, then the output impedance should be no higher than 1K (in theory). If the impedance matching is not optimal, the ability of the whole system to transfer power efficiently from the source to the speakers, will be compromised, and the sound quality will suffer.

Improving impedance matching using a buffer will produce large benefits, and in my experience the improvements always outweigh any loss of transparency caused by adding extra circuitry to the system. The improvements that you will hear are down to the buffer improving the impedance matching more than the added circuit having any other effect on the sound. However, the components used in the buffer may also change the sound of the whole system. Valves, transistors, Jfets, and opamps can all be used for buffering, and which will sound best, will depend on personal tastes, and the rest of the equipment in the hi-fi system. I guess what I am saying is that there is no magic in using valves, it's the impedance matching buffer that gives the most improvement although the valves may give something that is beneficial too.

I've tried both valve buffers and solid state buffers with the Sensation. They sound slightly different but I can't honestly say one is better than the other. What I do know is that in my system, the sound is significantly better with the buffer in place than without it.






OzarkTom

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #74 on: 20 Jun 2010, 02:13 am »
tube shoot-out #4:

Sylvania 12au7 vs. Tung-Sol 5814

The Tung-sol is in the same categorie as the RCA, but the RCA has a wider soundstage. This time I prefer the Sylvania by a large margin. I guess I an just a neutral kind of guy.

I might keep the RCA since it gives off such a nice glow and has the warmer sound for some of my audiophile friends who prefers that. This tube rolling is a lot of fun. You can make your Sensation into whatever you prefer as an amp, and with only one tube at a time.

I will try and hunt down some of the more expensive tubes, but so far, if the tube has a warner sound, the micro detail is somewhat lost, losing the bigger soundstage. I love lots of detail.

classicjt2

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #75 on: 21 Jun 2010, 01:20 am »
Let me start by saying that I am not an electronics engineer, but I have been into DIY hi-fi for many years, and have been lucky enough to have been reviewing hi-fi for over five years. So I'll have a go at answering the question.

What is a buffer and what is its role in a hi-fi system? It is (usually) an active circuit that isolates one part of your hi-fi circuit (that's every thing in your hi-fi system) from another part. By isolating, I don't mean cutting them off from one another, we could do that more easily (and cheaply) by cutting the wires that join them together, but then we wouldn't have any sound! What the buffer does is stop one part of the circuit having a detrimental effect on another.

The main job that a hi-fi buffer does is 'sorting out' impedance mis-matches. Various parts of the hi-fi system have input and output impedances. Impedance is a bit like resistance but for AC signals (instead of DC). As a rule of thumb, the output impedance of a circuit should be about ten times lower than the input impedance of the circuit that comes after it. Something as simple as a pot has an input and output impedance but they are usually the same. So if we take the Sensation amplifier for example, if its input impedance is 100K (I don't know what it actually is) then the ideal impedance of the pot would be 10K. And if a DAC comes immediately before the pot, then the output impedance should be no higher than 1K (in theory). If the impedance matching is not optimal, the ability of the whole system to transfer power efficiently from the source to the speakers, will be compromised, and the sound quality will suffer.

Improving impedance matching using a buffer will produce large benefits, and in my experience the improvements always outweigh any loss of transparency caused by adding extra circuitry to the system. The improvements that you will hear are down to the buffer improving the impedance matching more than the added circuit having any other effect on the sound. However, the components used in the buffer may also change the sound of the whole system. Valves, transistors, Jfets, and opamps can all be used for buffering, and which will sound best, will depend on personal tastes, and the rest of the equipment in the hi-fi system. I guess what I am saying is that there is no magic in using valves, it's the impedance matching buffer that gives the most improvement although the valves may give something that is beneficial too.

I've tried both valve buffers and solid state buffers with the Sensation. They sound slightly different but I can't honestly say one is better than the other. What I do know is that in my system, the sound is significantly better with the buffer in place than without it.

Correcting an impedence mis-match is exactly the reason for adding a buffer stage. This can happen between source component and amplifier, pre-amp and power amp stages, phono cartridge and phono pre-amp stage, among others.

It seems counter-intuitive to add a stage of electronics to get a more natural sound, but this is exactly what happens when adding a correct buffer stage. The addition of a good buffer stage typically improves image fullness and the density of images (less "thin" or fragile sounding), larger soundstage size, increased slam and macro-dynamics (the loud part of the dynamic range). The possible negative effects may be a slight loss of micro-dynamics (soft end of the dynamic scale) and an increase of background noise. The Sensation tube buffer stage is unique as far as I know, with the user being able to switch the buffer stage in or out for comparison, with zero change in gain. I would have to say that every time I've added a buffer stage, I preferred the sound of the buffered outputs to the passive outputs, with the buffer stage being more fleshed out, lively, and dynamic.

James


Danny Richie

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Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #76 on: 21 Jun 2010, 01:23 am »
Quote
The addition of a good buffer stage typically improves image fullness and the density of images (less "thin" or fragile sounding), larger soundstage size, increased slam and macro-dynamics (the loud part of the dynamic range).


Yep, that's what it does.

OzarkTom

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #77 on: 21 Jun 2010, 01:52 am »


Yep, that's what it does.

And I will strongly second that. This is so magical, one of the most  musical amps I have heard in 40 years.

Mariusz

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #78 on: 21 Jun 2010, 02:18 am »
Sensation is breaking in right now.
Will hold my initial impression till passing the 100h mark.


                        ••••••••••
I do have a question/suggestion tho -
Gary's work is very neat and superbly executed,....no question about it but do you (Gary) think it is possible to install the tube buffer by-pass switch (or different switch) in such a way that lever goes side to side (horizontally) rather the up&down??? The reason I ask is that while in "down" position, it is a bit tricky to move the lever back to upper position without touching the board.   
Shorter lever might work as well (similar to voltage switch on your tube buffer kit)

Just a suggestion

Best
Mariusz

OzarkTom

Re: Sensation Dodd Tube Buffer
« Reply #79 on: 21 Jun 2010, 03:46 am »
tube shoot-out #5:

Sylvania 12au7 vs. GE 6201

This was real tough as both are very neutral sounding. Soundstage and depth was very close, I chose the Sylvania because of just slightly more natural soumding. Too bad though, the GE glows so brightly in the Sensation. The GE was noisy as you adjusted the volume up or down.

Please take these tube reviews not as the gospel, this is as I hear them with my ears on my equipment. You may get different results. If you have noticed, I have never found a tube that is too bright or harsh sounding in the Sensation. All of these tubes have sounded musical. That says a lot about the marriage of this amp with the tube buffer.
« Last Edit: 21 Jun 2010, 11:30 am by OzarkTom »