AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The HiRez Music Circle => Topic started by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2012, 03:30 am
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When I heard that two different groups were doing hirez remasters of Norah's breakthrough album I thought " Hmm, that's very different. Wonder which one will capture the magic", the magic that is hinted at in the quite compressed-by-comparison Blue Note redbook (and huge "swing-and-a-miss" by the 2009 SACD release, accidentally mastered from the redbook copy source). One was announced first, the Chad Kassem-funded Kevin Gray-mastered analog-direct-to-DSD Analogue Productions SACD release (pushed to July 2), and the later announced HDtracks 24/192 (and 24/96) release, coming directly from (Hdtracks quote):
"....New York’s legendary Sterling Sound by Norah Jones’s longtime mastering engineer Greg Calbi, Come Away with Me was remastered from the original analog mix tapes in 192kHz/24 bit, and 96kHz/24 bit audio"
Well, as a huge DSD fan, and with the experience and tools available to rip to DSD (:)) I was waiting aptiently for the SACD. But I am a big Norah fan (especially her first 3 solo releases and subsequent jazzier side projects) so I couldn't wait.
For fans of Norah, or fans of great female vocal jazz/pop, run and buy this HDtracks release......NOW! it is revelatory. It makes the redbook sound like a 192k MP3.....everything is better. Tonality is way better, air is huge, it is quieter, it is wayyy closer (I think) to the master tape sound. i can't imagine it was NOT supposed to sound this way. Few Hdtracks remasters touch this improvement IMHO. Piano doesn't clip, Norah's voice is perfect and can be played as loud as one likes to hear natural vocals (same can't be said for every track of the redbook). And keep in mind that the redbook is a WONDERFUL album, just nothing like this.
I'm buying Feels Like Home too. Many folks didn;t like that album much, but I have an affinity to it. I can't wait to hear if it takes off like Come Away With Me does, and at lower gain even. :)
Now...do I buy the SACD? After first listen it is unlikely to get that much better than this......but prolly will. :wink:
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Thanks for the heads up! Have the SACDs on preorder and will pick this up as well...but, back to work tomorrow.
Thanks Ted
Mark
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Ted, let us know how this one comes up as well.
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Ok, well, you Norah fans should know that her second album, Feels Like Home, was slightly less compressed than the debut album. Greg Calbi (who once said, in an interview, that record execs want loudness cuz they want their song the loudest in a random ipod shuffle playlist!!) had slightly less work to do, and it is evident here. Norah's voice is perfect, no shouting, honk effects, etc. The result is just as musical as CAWM, but doesn't blow you away with the differences as much...cuz they aren't required. Results are the same as CAWM....an incredible ease, air, effortlessness, and millions of timbre changes and harmonics. What's nice, in both of these remasters, is that you get ease and yet you get weight and dynamics too (although these Norah releases are not full of huge dynamic swings in any event). They may sound lower in volume to the unaided ear, but that's easily fixed, turn them up. :) In any case, a very worthwhile HDtracks purchase.
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Have to agree Ted, the HD Tracks CAWM is a revelation compared to the SACD 2 channel track (although the multi is excellent). Both of these new HD Tracks releases are exceptional!
Now just have to wait until Sept!!!! for my SACD box preorder.
Great heads up :thumb:
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:thumb:
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Have to agree Ted, the HD Tracks CAWM is a revelation compared to the SACD 2 channel track (although the multi is excellent). Both of these new HD Tracks releases are exceptional!
Now just have to wait until Sept!!!! for my SACD box preorder.
Great heads up :thumb:
Did they move back the box set release? I had it in my head as June 18 (have not looked) and was planning on looking in a couple of weeks and ordering it. I thought I saw June 18 as the release date somewhere but I could be mistaken
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The individual SACD's were moved back again to July 16, and the boxset to Sep 14th.
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Damn you, Ted -- enticing me with these recordings to get a 24/192 capable DAC. :x :wink:
I got all her vinyl. If she sounds better in person (in a week) then the vinyls I have, then I will have to pull the trigger on the 24/192 - both the recording and a HiRez DAC.
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Rim, I thought you were looking at all that awhile ago? No luck?
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Downloading now and looking forward to hearing this. :)
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By the way, her debut (Come Away With Me) is much more improved as a 24/192 remaster than the 2nd or 3rd albums (Feels Like Home, Not Too Late) although all three are improvements, and pretty much in that order. I'd say you'd have to be a huge fan to shell out for the 3rd album redo.
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Rim, I thought you were looking at all that awhile ago? No luck?
I have not pulled the trigger yet. I am vacillating between several choices. I will do some more research during the Capital Audio show and perhaps even wait for a show special at RMAF if I am still looking.
Ted, where is the Meitner review?
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The individual SACD's were moved back again to July 16, and the boxset to Sep 14th.
Ted, thanks!! I was debating what to do and what to get but just decided I'd take the whole box set. For the most part these days, when I get SACDs, they are SHMs from Japan or other expensive choices anyway.
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I downloaded the FLAC file, and both my roommate and I think that the HiRez recording is superior to sound of the CD that I burned to my computer and am playing through Pure Music. Does anyone know a way to play FLAC files through Pure Music? I can't get iTunes to accept the album into the music library.
And Ted, thank you for your post about the recording.
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I downloaded the FLAC file, and both my roommate and I think that the HiRez recording is superior to sound of the CD that I burned to my computer and am playing through Pure Music. Does anyone know a way to play FLAC files through Pure Music? I can't get iTunes to accept the album into the music library.
And Ted, thank you for your post about the recording.
http://www.channld.com/support-troubleshooting.html
Scroll about halfway down, to FLAC file playback (or look in the user manual). PM uses proxy files to store and flac, and there is an "add flac" button to start that process. You then simply load your flac files and PM makes small fake itunes files (proxies) that then point to your FLAC files. It's the same way PM does DSD files, since niether DSD nor FLAC can be plyed in iTunes. the proxy method makes it so you can browse iTunes (via remote apps, etc) and find the songs, but the actual FLAC files sits somewhere else.
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Downloading CAWM and two more (not Norah) for tonight.
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I too found the sound of the 24/192 version to be a nice improvement over the redbook CD. :thumb:
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I always find it interesting to load two versions of the same thing into Audacity or Goldwave and take a visual look at the differences.
Here you go. (The redbook version ripped directly from the CD and the 24/192 FLAC.)
Dave.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64741)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64742)
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HI,
Ted, thanks for this. Have been twisting my mind over these releases for a while. Really love her music but was always thrown back because of the QoS on the cd's.
You have not exaggerated for one bit. Glorious sound in 24/192! Highly recommended. Piano still a bit 'grainy' here and there..
Have not dl'd her latest (not available as 24/192), because the strange distortion that is heard on the cd in several tracks, is noticeable even in the HDtracks interface. Must be intended by the artists ... :scratch:
Marius
For fans of Norah, or fans of great female vocal jazz/pop, run and buy this HDtracks release......NOW! it is revelatory. It makes the redbook sound like a 192k MP3.....everything is better. Tonality is way better, air is huge, it is quieter, it is wayyy closer (I think) to the master tape sound. i can't imagine it was NOT supposed to sound this way. Few Hdtracks remasters touch this improvement IMHO. Piano doesn't clip, Norah's voice is perfect and can be played as loud as one likes to hear natural vocals (same can't be said for every track of the redbook). And keep in mind that the redbook is a WONDERFUL album, just nothing like this.
I'm buying Feels Like Home too. Many folks didn;t like that album much, but I have an affinity to it. I can't wait to hear if it takes off like Come Away With Me does, and at lower gain even. :)
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I always find it interesting to load two versions of the same thing into Audacity or Goldwave and take a visual look at the differences.
Here you go. (The redbook version ripped directly from the CD and the 24/192 FLAC.)
Dave.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64741)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64742)
:stupid: :scratch:
Davey,
Can you educate us on what differences are seen between those two amplitude vs. time curves?
Thanks,
Anand.
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Well, those aren't spectrograms. It's just amplitude versus time.
I didn't normalize either file but the maximum peak levels on both versions are nearly identical.
The average RMS level is approximately 3db lower on the Hires version and the dynamic range is about 15db larger. There's a good deal more compression used on the Redbook version relative to the Hires version. (You can see that fairly easily looking at the two displays.) However, it's much less compression than you might see on many other contemporary recordings. (The Norah Jones recordings are not bad in that respect.)
I didn't look at all 14 tracks, but a few of the others are consistent with this one.
If your system volume control is set about 3db higher when playing the Hires version you'd have a pretty close amplitude match for A/B purposes. However, subjective differences involve more than just relative amplitude correction. :)
Cheers,
Dave.
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Dave,
Good stuff. My waveforms look the same. And I hear more dynamics and quite a bit less congestion and/or clipping on her vocals than in the redbook (which, as you say, is no slouch SQ wise). Her next two albums show less improvement in hirez, but are better nonetheless.
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Looks to me like I see a flipped absolute phase.
EV3
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Well, those aren't spectrograms. It's just amplitude versus time.
I didn't normalize either file but the maximum peak levels on both versions are nearly identical.
The average RMS level is approximately 3db lower on the Hires version and the dynamic range is about 15db larger. There's a good deal more compression used on the Redbook version relative to the Hires version. (You can see that fairly easily looking at the two displays.) However, it's much less compression than you might see on many other contemporary recordings. (The Norah Jones recordings are not bad in that respect.)
I didn't look at all 14 tracks, but a few of the others are consistent with this one.
If your system volume control is set about 3db higher when playing the Hires version you'd have a pretty close amplitude match for A/B purposes. However, subjective differences involve more than just relative amplitude correction. :)
Cheers,
Dave.
To me, those curves look exactly the same. Maybe if I had a larger monitor or if you cut the time down, I could see something. But as of now, they look identical.
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Ted, I'm sure a lot of us DSD types would love to hear your opinion of the download vs. an SACD rip.... :D
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HI,
Ive made a spectogram of "Don't know why", and I guess the extra dynamic headroom is kind of obvious: this song in the cd-rip has a straight cut-off at 22k, whereas the hdtracks 192 dl has just the extra space.
Very obvious too in this song is when this happens musically: with all Norah's t' and s's, and with every new frase she accentuates. More so than with the piano chords (which still seem a little 'raspy') Exactly those spots where the compression on the cd is most irritating.
Ted, please can you explain this: the original 22k line is still very visbile though, is that indicating a sacd-rip?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66475)
Marius
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Ted, I'm sure a lot of us DSD types would love to hear your opinion of the download vs. an SACD rip.... :D
I will report back after the SACD gets released (Aug 22nd); but thanks for reminding me..forget the next two got released last week.
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To me, those curves look exactly the same. Maybe if I had a larger monitor or if you cut the time down, I could see something. But as of now, they look identical.
They are definitely not identical Bob.
Time for a new monitor. :wink:
George
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To me, those curves look exactly the same. Maybe if I had a larger monitor or if you cut the time down, I could see something. But as of now, they look identical.
Are you comparing the top screen print with the bottom one, or the two curves within each screen print?
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Are you comparing the top screen print with the bottom one, or the two curves within each screen print?
The screens show left and right channels of the same recording. Read them as...the middle of the graph is silence and going over the outer edges of the graph is clipped distortion, and the differences between the middle and the outer edges is dynamics. In the case of the Norah comparisons the second set of waveforms shows that the middle trunk is much much thinner yet the peaks are still nicely there, but not too high or low. That results in more volume changes within the song, i.e more dynamics..and an overall more pleasant sound. If the middle trunk is thick that means more and more of the music is at the same volume.
Here is one of the all-time famous worst loud compressed tracks...from Red Hot Chili peppers Stadium Arcadium. Everything is loud, period.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66476)
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Here's an interesting one I was listening to last evening. This is a 24bit/96khz recording, and just goes to show that it doesn't matter what the bit depth and/or sampling rate is, an engineer can use other means to "modify" the performance to its detriment. :)
Cheers,
Dave.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=63738)
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Hi guys,
I just wanted to download "Feels like home" via HDTracks but somehow it isn't available in my region (Europe, Germany) (http://www.hdtracks.de/feels-like-home-215483)? :scratch:
Can't find any other Norah Jones albums either, it only works if I use a US proxy.
Is there another shop where I can buy her lossless albums, because I can't find any?
I'd also physically import it if there's no way that I can buy it digitally.
The original CD version that I bought a few years ago via Amazon is just awful quality wise (worst quality of any album that I ever bought), especially with HiFi-headphones.
Thanks in advance! :)
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Hi guys,
I just wanted to download "Feels like home" via HDTracks but somehow it isn't available in my region (Europe, Germany) (http://www.hdtracks.de/feels-like-home-215483)? :scratch:
Can't find any other Norah Jones albums either, it only works if I use a US proxy.
Is there another shop where I can buy her lossless albums, because I can't find any?
I'd also physically import it if there's no way that I can buy it digitally.
Why not giving Qobuz a try :)
http://www.qobuz.com/de-de/album/come-away-with-me-192khz-24bit-norah-jones/5099946383457 (http://www.qobuz.com/de-de/album/come-away-with-me-192khz-24bit-norah-jones/5099946383457)
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Is anyone able to conform (or deny) that this (https://www.hdtracks.com/#/album/5e01287b82679ee0f64648b6) is the remaster being discussed? It seems to match in terms of release date (2012) but still mentions "Blue Note". I'm not able to find any releases on Qobuz for the album in 2012 (see https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/search?q=norah+jones+come+away+with+me) which seems to indicate this is the one I want, but would be great to have confirmation before dropping $25 on it.
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HD Tracks had the 192kHz/24-bit Come Away With Me available as early as March 16, 2014 so this is the very early remaster mentioned back in 2012. Norah Jones/Blue Note has a new 2022 remaster available.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140316225726/http://www.hdtracks.com/music/label/view/id/278/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20140316225726/http://www.hdtracks.com/music/label/view/id/278/)
Come Away with Me is the debut studio album by American recording artist Norah Jones, released on February 26, 2002, by Blue Note Records. Everything you find: CD, LP, Hi-Res will be on Blue Note.
Norah Jones does have a remastered box set also on Blue Note, unfortunately The Blue Note Shop only has LP and CD, no hi-res downloads
https://www.norahjones.com/news-1/2022/2/25/blue-note-announces-20th-anniversary-super-deluxe-edition-of-norah-jones-seminal-debut-album-come-away-with-me (https://www.norahjones.com/news-1/2022/2/25/blue-note-announces-20th-anniversary-super-deluxe-edition-of-norah-jones-seminal-debut-album-come-away-with-me)
"On April 29, Blue Note/UMe will release Come Away With Me: 20th Anniversary Super Deluxe Edition, a remarkable 44-track collection that captures the emergence of a singular talent and reveals for the first time the full story of the making of this now-classic album. In addition to a remaster of the original album, which was produced by Arif Mardin, the Super Deluxe Edition also includes 22 previously unreleased tracks including the original demos that Norah submitted to Blue Note, the complete First Session demos she made after being signed, and the first version of the album that Norah made at Allaire Studios with producer Craig Street, most of which has never been heard before and offers a fascinating look at the album that might have been."
The new remastered 20th Anniversary CD is available for $13.98
https://store.bluenote.com/products/norah-jones-come-away-with-me-20th-anniversary?utm_source=Original&utm_campaign=NorahJonesComeAwayWithMe%28AlternateVersion%2920220224&utm_medium=original&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.norahjones.com%2F&utm_board=norah-jones&utm_country=US&utm_linkurl=NorahJones.lnk.to%2FCAWM20th&variant=41343871221951 (https://store.bluenote.com/products/norah-jones-come-away-with-me-20th-anniversary?utm_source=Original&utm_campaign=NorahJonesComeAwayWithMe%28AlternateVersion%2920220224&utm_medium=original&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.norahjones.com%2F&utm_board=norah-jones&utm_country=US&utm_linkurl=NorahJones.lnk.to%2FCAWM20th&variant=41343871221951)
The Blue Note Shop does have a 96kHz/24-bit download for $17.98, no mention if it is the new 2022 remaster, looks like it is the 2012 version.
"....New York’s legendary Sterling Sound by Norah Jones’s longtime mastering engineer Greg Calbi, Come Away with Me was remastered from the original analog mix tapes in 192kHz/24 bit, and 96kHz/24 bit audio"
https://store.bluenote.com/collections/vinyl/products/norah-jones-come-away-with-me?_pos=9&_sid=bd43bda92&_ss=r&variant=37586810732735 (https://store.bluenote.com/collections/vinyl/products/norah-jones-come-away-with-me?_pos=9&_sid=bd43bda92&_ss=r&variant=37586810732735)
Another option is if you have a Blu-ray player on the approved list (https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/) then Come Away With Me SACDs are cheap on eBay. Rip the SACD with freely available software to get DSD64 tracks (.dsf) that will sound better than the original CD. DSD64 converts to 384kHz if your DAC doesn't play DSD.
MusicDirect has the SACD for $18.99
https://www.musicdirect.com/music/optical-disc/norah-jones-come-away-with-me-hybrid-sacd-5-1/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA54KfBhCKARIsAJzSrdq8NGrdBUEQeFM3Pha8jXfuNcaySqdSG9V7cEOgrTP9gz0yT-bhQ-8aAmM9EALw_wcB (https://www.musicdirect.com/music/optical-disc/norah-jones-come-away-with-me-hybrid-sacd-5-1/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA54KfBhCKARIsAJzSrdq8NGrdBUEQeFM3Pha8jXfuNcaySqdSG9V7cEOgrTP9gz0yT-bhQ-8aAmM9EALw_wcB)
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This may be what you are looking for, the 2022 Remaster in 96kHz/24-bit - $17.99
https://www.prostudiomasters.com/album/page/131763 (https://www.prostudiomasters.com/album/page/131763)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249726&size=xlarge)
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Thanks WGH for all the info!
I did a bit more digging and found an independent analysis of a bunch of different releases of Come Away With me (and many more albums) here: https://magicvinyldigital.net/2022/04/30/norah-jones-come-away-with-me-review-lp-cd-sacd-streaming-atmos/
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they had the 2012(4) available to them.
The main takeaway (quote): "These [2022] remastered versions are more compressed than the previous versions Qobuz (Ed2), Amazon (Ed3) and Tidal (Ed4)." Seems I'll stay away from that one (WHY DO THEY KEEP DOING THIS?!)
Thanks for the suggestion regarding Blu-ray player rip, my DAC does indeed support DSD, but I often use PCM upsampled to 1.5Mhz using HQPlayer. I'm not sure I want to go to that much trouble for one album right now. I can currently stream it on Qobuz, so it's not that I can't listen to it currently, I was just excited to read about a (potentially) improved remastering of the original.
I think I'm going to end up buying the 192kHz/24-bit version from HD Tracks.
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Nice link! Looks like it's hard to improve on the original.
I switch around using different upsampling algorithms in HQPlayer. For a while 384 kHz using DS5, poly-sync-long-lp was the sweet spot. 1.5 MHz flattened the soundfield but was more exciting.
Currently everything is upsampled to DSD256 using ASDM7ECv2, poly-sync-mp
When I get bored I'll switch to another poly-sync.
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I think I'm going to end up buying the 192kHz/24-bit version from HD Tracks.
I finally got a chance to compare the HD Tracks 24/192 version to the DSD64 SACD rip. The 24/192 is clear, sharp and sounds nothing like vinyl, the opposite of relaxing unless it is played real soft, turn it up and it's like an ice pick in the ear.
OK, not that bad, more like video on a cheap LCD TV - WOW, so bright, clear and fatiguing.
The DSD64 is how this recording should sound based on it's all analog provenance.
The two recordings were compared using JRiver Media Player into a HoloAudio May KTE DAC. Even though JRiver has DSD pass-through the album still sounds flat without depth.
Upsampling DSD64 to DSD256 using HQPlayer lowers the noise floor allowing low level information to emerge, Norah is now 3-dimensional like on the vinyl.
Settings: ASDM7ECv2, poly-sinc-long-lp, poly-sinc-gauss-hires-lp