AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: G E on 27 May 2019, 01:47 am
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I don’t often leave on gear for more than 30 hours. Usually turn on Friday evening... off midnight-ish the next day.
But I have a 4 day weekend and have had my 28-2’s on since Thursday evening.
Tonight I fired up my phono preamp - tube based Hagerman Trumpet, and put on some records.
I wasn’t prepared for the sonic richness! With cold tubes I was hearing a warmth I don’t recall hearing before.
There is something to leaving on gear.
I’ll start turning on gear Thursday nights in preparation for standard weekends... weather permitting
Anyone else experience this?
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Hi GE
I agree - the engineers will scoff at us but one fact that constantly reinforces the "turn on early before critical listening" position is when I do shows by the 2 or 3rd day everything just sounds better. :thumb:
james
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Agree it takes at minimum 24 hours to sound great. I have left my Bryston gear on 24/7/365 for ten years.. It just sounds better if left on.
Hard to do that with tube gear...
Back when I was still working, I left it all on playing... for my pets.
Now I listen every day all day myself.
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Agree with Elizabeth.
Since going all digital (no tubes), I've left mine on 24/7/365. Friends who work with solid state devices have said turning off and on repeatedly decreases component reliability and performance.
I listen to the guys who work with digital components for a living.
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Since going all digital (no tubes), I've left mine on 24/7/365. Friends who work with solid state devices have said turning off and on repeatedly decreases component reliability and performance.
I listen to the guys who work with digital components for a living.
Does the stand-by mode of the BDA dacs do the same thing as keeping them on 24/7?
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Hi GE
I agree - the engineers will scoff at us but one fact that constantly reinforces the "turn on early before critical listening" position is when I do shows by the 2 or 3rd day everything just sounds better. :thumb:
james
Hello James,
In your experience does that apply only to amplifiers or to digital sources like bda bcd and bdp as well?
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That's a good question - I have always assumed Amplifiers were the likely suspects first and foremost because I have never really tried swapping out an identical unit at home or at a show.
Something to try.
james
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If I may jump in, please. I have three audio systems, and I keep them all going.
Primary: BCD-3, BP17c, Mag Dyna FM tuner, 4Bc, Thiel 2.7 speakers with ss2.2 sub
Secondary (building it for my son): Cambridge CD transport, BDA-2, BP-26, Mag Dyna FM tuner, 4Bsst2, AR3a speakers.
Bedroom: Cambridge integrated, Mag Dyna FM tuner, ADS monitor speakers.
I keep all of them running. Since the home is all electric, the monthly electric bill isn't appreciable.
Like Elizabeth, I believe having a truly warmed-up system is preferable to a turn-on and waiting for some time to achieve the best performance.
BTW: Back in my Ham Operator days, I kept both the transmitter power supply and the receiver on "standby" for days at a time so I could immediately answer the CQs.
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My trusty Arcam AV-8 has been on 24/7 since 2006
All Bryston components at least 5 yrs
Amps I turn on hour before as I use to keep them on 24/7
About 40.00 a month more with 28s+7s running continuously.
My new BDA-3 about one week 24/7
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I do turn off a few items. An Audio Research SP-15 I use just for the three tube phono section. (It goes into the Bryston BP-26 input) Since I do not use taht turntable a lot, I only turn on the SP-15 when I am going to use it.
Then I also have a Conrad Johnson ACT2. This ACT2 CJ is the hottest furnace I have ever encountered in a preamp. (And yes CJ says yeah it is a hot running item) Not only do I turn it on and off. It STAYS OFF all Summer. (Why pay double, to heat up the room and then again pay to cool it down.)
Then oddly my Threshold FET TEN line and phono boxes are cool. so is the power supply for them. You would never know they are on from touching the boxes, even the power supply!
The Bryston BP-26 power and preamp get very lightly warm when playing. when idling, they are almost cool as when off.
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If I may jump in, please. I have three audio systems, and I keep them all going.
Primary: BCD-3, BP17c, Mag Dyna FM tuner, 4Bc, Thiel 2.7 speakers with ss2.2 sub
Secondary (building it for my son): Cambridge CD transport, BDA-2, BP-26, Mag Dyna FM tuner, 4Bsst2, AR3a speakers.
Bedroom: Cambridge integrated, Mag Dyna FM tuner, ADS monitor speakers.
I keep all of them running. Since the home is all electric, the monthly electric bill isn't appreciable.
Like Elizabeth, I believe having a truly warmed-up system is preferable to a turn-on and waiting for some time to achieve the best performance.
BTW: Back in my Ham Operator days, I kept both the transmitter power supply and the receiver on "standby" for days at a time so I could immediately answer the CQs.
A very lucky son indeed :D :D
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That's a good question - I have always assumed Amplifiers were the likely suspects first and foremost because I have never really tried swapping out an identical unit at home or at a show.
Something to try.
james
This makes the most sense to me - audio designers I've known or worked with in the past have generally said that the capacitors in audio components need not only to fully charge but "form" after a period of being on (presumably this is particularly true for the large caps that are part of the output stages of power amplifiers). How long that process really takes, I have no idea.
However, my habit has been to leave the amps (& now BAX-1) on all the time, with the head-end components in standby. I do still notice that the sound improves after being on for a while, and even more so if it's playing music. It would be nice if the standby status would take care of the "fully warmed up & optimal sounding" thing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Brian
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Hi Folks
Standby mode can not be more than .(point)5 Volts due to international power consumption rules. So its impossible to have enough 'trickle charge' to full charge the complete circuitry and still meet these standards. The .5 volt is just to allow for remote turn-on.
james
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What about an extra power mode that isn't standby but isnt fully on?
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What about an extra power mode that isn't standby but isnt fully on?
Would not be allowed due to regulations. All around the world now there are more and more regulations to limit power use when not fully operating.
james
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Hi GE
I agree - the engineers will scoff at us but one fact that constantly reinforces the "turn on early before critical listening" position is when I do shows by the 2 or 3rd day everything just sounds better. :thumb:
james
Any measurements?
If the difference is so large that you can notice it 2 days later, it should be easy to measure the reason for this large difference.
* * * * * * * *
And with differences large enough to have a preference, it should be even easier to measure.
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My amp benefits the most from being left on. Makes sense with all that capacitance. Sub-woofer as well.
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There may be some truth to leaving your equipment on 24/7. I left my unit on this week for 24 hours for Chris to do work on my BDP3 while it was in service mode. When I finally played music on my system, it was immediately warmer, smoother, sweeter and relaxed sounding. I am not going to turn it off again.
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I planned to turn on all my solid state gear tonight in preparation for Friday night, but they are forecasting thunderstorms some possibly severe tonight and through the weekend. Everything is unplugged now which is what I do in spring and summer when not listening. Don’t want to get zapped!
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We had a direct lightning strike on our house (Anza, CA) in 2014. The lightning struck our anemometer mast, which is attached to the peak of the roof adjacent to the room with our gear. The lightning took out anything connected with an HDMI cable and also the amp in the subwoofer. Other gear was OK. Emotiva and Hsu Research were very helpful about repairs, Samsung (TV) not at all. I've been urged to get a surge protector. A surge protector may prevent ordinary line surges, but it's my understanding that no surge protector will protect against lightning.
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I, too, discovered the benefits of continuous operation when doing audio shows years ago. Now I leave my home rig fired up 24/7 whenever possible. Exception: extended vacations - don't want to tempt fate or bad luck. My Schitt gear (Vidar amp, Gungnir DAC) definitely sounds better this way. Vidar only draws 60 watts (like a porch light) and the DAC a lot less. The Vidar manual even says "...leave it on all the time if you like". I don't leave my sources on. My preamp is a Vinnie Rossi LIO which operates on ultracapacitor power so it is always charged up (and therefore always on "stand-by"). My other amp is a First Watt F-7 which is pure Class A so leaving it on all the time would NOT be very green. It sounds just fine with 30 minutes of warm up. For those who are super concerned about the environment, consider Class D amps. My Red Dragons only pulled a couple of watts at idle and definitely sounded best when left on.
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We had a direct lightning strike on our house (Anza, CA) in 2014. The lightning struck our anemometer mast, which is attached to the peak of the roof adjacent to the room with our gear. The lightning took out anything connected with an HDMI cable and also the amp in the subwoofer. Other gear was OK. Emotiva and Hsu Research were very helpful about repairs, Samsung (TV) not at all. I've been urged to get a surge protector. A surge protector may prevent ordinary line surges, but it's my understanding that no surge protector will protect against lightning.
Hi
Bryston BIT's use Power surge protection using Series Mode Surge Suppression rather than MOV’s
The Bryston BIT power products use the finest, most elaborate surge suppression technology available. Series Mode Surge Suppression does not shunt the spike to ground like MOV’s do, and therefore the ground is infinitely more stable in a BIT power device.
Additionally, most MOV-based surge suppression units allow as much as 300 volts through to the protected components, easily enough to do substantial damage, where as BIT surge suppression has clamping voltage onset of around 2V above peak nominal voltage. BIT units are built to meet 6000 volts, 3000 amps at 1000 repeats standard.
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Hi
Bryston BIT's use Power surge protection using Series Mode Surge Suppression rather than MOV’s
The Bryston BIT power products use the finest, most elaborate surge suppression technology available. Series Mode Surge Suppression does not shunt the spike to ground like MOV’s do, and therefore the ground is infinitely more stable in a BIT power device.
Additionally, most MOV-based surge suppression units allow as much as 300 volts through to the protected components, easily enough to do substantial damage, where as BIT surge suppression has clamping voltage onset of around 2V above peak nominal voltage. BIT units are built to meet 6000 volts, 3000 amps at 1000 repeats standard.
Sorry -- what's "MOV?"
Off topic: I visited T.H.E. Show in Long Beach, CA, yesterday, and I met Gary Dayton at the Bryston demo. Gary was very personable and I had an interesting chat with him. Alas, Bryston is sharing the room with other products (the room is hosted by Bryston's dealer from West Covina), and they didn't have any of the Bryston speakers. I must say that the speakers (Eggleston) that were hooked up to the Bryston monoblocks were excellent.
Correction: Covina, not West Covina.
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Sorry -- what's "MOV?"
Off topic: I visited T.H.E. Show in Long Beach, CA, yesterday, and I met Gary Dayton at the Bryston demo. Gary was very personable and I had an interesting chat with him. Alas, Bryston is sharing the room with other products (the room is hosted by Bryston's dealer from West Covina), and they didn't have any of the Bryston speakers. I must say that the speakers (Eggleston) that were hooked up to the Bryston monoblocks were excellent.
Correction: Covina, not West Covina.
HI
MOV is a big resistor.
Glad you enjoyed the show!
james
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I've been urged to get a surge protector. A surge protector may prevent ordinary line surges, but it's my understanding that no surge protector will protect against lightning.
Well, unless you can get one that will stop 100 million volts and 100,000 amps from getting into your system! :lol:
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HI
MOV is a big resistor.
Glad you enjoyed the show!
james
Maybe I'm missing something. I don't see info in the ads for various surge protectors and power conditioners (not necessarily the same thing, are they?) to tell me what technology they use. I assume a $300 protector is less capable than a $3000 protector. My system consists of fourteen components. This includes the subwoofer, the OLED TV, and the satellite box. I checked with the manufacturer of my five-channel amp (Emotiva -- sorry!), and they told me it would draw 15 amps if all channels were going full tilt. I won't get close to that in my current set-up, of course, especially since my current speakers (Hsu Research) are very efficient. But it's always possible I could go back to Maggies. The amp is currently plugged into its own household circuit, separate from the other components. So if I get a surge protector/conditioner that has, say, 12 ea 120 volt outlets, how many components can I actually plug into it? I assume a phono stage (two) and the Bryston BDP-pi draw very little current, but I'm not so sure about the pre-amp, PC, and turntables (two, including Linn LP12 with Lingo 4).
Edited to add: I've looked at my electrical panel. The relevant circuits are 15A.
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Hi
Generally
Source components draw very little amperage so its really the amplifiers that take up most of the power draw. I usually tell people to add up all the amperages from all there components and under normal use get a power conditioner that is at least 2/3rds that rating.
Also we have found that you are better to err on the conservative side when it comes to Isolation transformers like the BIT. Many power conditioners use the same rating as the power - whereas in the BIT we use double the rating for each voltage. For example our 20 amp BIT transformer is actually rated for 40 amps.
james
PS - I can send you a much more detailed whitepaper on the BIT if you email me - jamestanner@bryston.com.
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Here is something I put together a while back that may help.
Bryston BIT Isolation Transformer Motivation
The concern Bryston had with a lot of power line conditioners available in the market was that many of them could restrict the current available to the amplifier. An amplifier can draw very high peak current, and wants to 'see' a very low impedance high current source from the power line. In fact, we even stated in our owners manuals not to plug our amplifiers into power conditioners. The Transformer based line conditioners we tested were too small to supply the peak current required and many of them were just Filters and did not provide Isolation -(Isolation means there is no mechanical connection between the outside power grid and your inside system power supply).
Also most of the surge protection was done using MOV’s, which are sacrificial and eventually will be destroyed with repeated spikes. Other issues with these MOVs is that they allow much more voltage through before they reacted (typically 300 volts and higher) and they shunt the voltage spikes to ground.
So we decided to try and develop a powerline Conditioner, Isolation and Protection unit that would not have the restrictions of the many units currently on the market from an amplifier performance perspective.
Benefits of Bryston BIT Power Isolation Units:
Benefit #1: Very low source impedance and high current for the power amplifier
BRYTSTON power isolation units present low impedance to any electronic device that is connected to them. A Single 20 amp BIT PIU has an output impedance of 0.2 ohms and can deliver 400 amp peaks (instantaneous current). The 100 amp unit only has .04 Ohms of output impedance. A typical 200 watt audio power amplifier demands 10 amps RMS current from a 120 volt line (1200VA) but may demand up to 50 amp instantaneous peaks. The standard residential wall receptacle can't supply the 50 amp peaks because they typically have higher nominal impedance. A BIT 20 amp PIU plugged into the same wall plug can supply these peak current requirements quite easily.
Benefit #2: Power surge protection using Series Mode Surge Suppression rather than MOV's
The BIT power products use the finest, most elaborate surge suppression technology available. Series Mode Surge Suppression does not shunt the spike to ground like MOV's do, and therefore the ground is infinitely more stable in a BIT power device. Additionally, most MOV-based surge suppression units allow as much as 300 volts through to the protected components, easily enough to do substantial damage, where as BIT surge suppression has clamping voltage onset of around 2V above peak nominal voltage. BIT units are built to meet 6000 volts, 3000 amps at 1000 repeats standard.
Benefit #3: Total isolation from outside power grid
BIT power products provide isolation through its finest designed toroidal transformer between the outside power grid and the devices being protected. Such isolation helps to reject external noise sources such as motors, lights, and dimmers commonly found in the home environment. BIT power products provide noise filtering at a range from approximately 2000Hz to over 1MHz – other regular transformer based products do not start operating until nearly 10,000 Hz.
Benefit #4: High Power Capability
There are 15 models of BIT power products available ranging from 15 amps to 100 amps and 120/240 Volts.
Benefit# 5: Low Noise
Bryston BIT products utilize ‘LONO’ (Low Noise) transformer design technology that eliminates audible noise in the power transformer regardless of line conditions, DC offset and over-voltage. BIT products perform at the NC10 level measured on the standard NC (Noise Criteria) – which makes them suitable for use in very quiet environments such as professional recording and broadcast studios.
Benefit # 6: Cleaner Power
Bryston BIT products utilize “NBT” (Narrow Bandwidth Technology) to attenuate differential and common-mode noise without external circuits or components, and starting at a lower corner frequency (2Khz) than other systems. The BIT result is startling – see press and user comments!
Benefit # 7: AVR (optional automatic voltage regulation)
The new feature is Automatic Voltage Regulator (AVR). The AVR would make sure that the output voltage of the unit stays uniform within an acceptable range when the input voltage is either increased from or dropped below the acceptable range.The purpose is to keep the output voltage uniform when the input voltage varies over a wide range from 130V to 95V for the North American models and 260V to 190V for the International models and to shut the system down if the input voltage goes above 135V or below 90V for North American models and above 270V or below 180 for the International models.
James Tanner,
Bryston
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Thanks, James. Very clearly presented, if not compelling.
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James, is this the white paper that you've just posted?
Edited to add: What about wall-warts? Most line conditioners -- including Bryston's -- provide very little space for wall-wart power adapters, which often like to spread themselves over two or more power outlets.
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Here is something I put together a while back that may help.
Bryston BIT Isolation Transformer Motivation
The concern Bryston had with a lot of power line conditioners available in the market was that many of them could restrict the current available to the amplifier. An amplifier can draw very high peak current, and wants to 'see' a very low impedance high current source from the power line. In fact, we even stated in our owners manuals not to plug our amplifiers into power conditioners. The Transformer based line conditioners we tested were too small to supply the peak current required and many of them were just Filters and did not provide Isolation -(Isolation means there is no mechanical connection between the outside power grid and your inside system power supply).
Also most of the surge protection was done using MOV’s, which are sacrificial and eventually will be destroyed with repeated spikes. Other issues with these MOVs is that they allow much more voltage through before they reacted (typically 300 volts and higher) and they shunt the voltage spikes to ground.
So we decided to try and develop a powerline Conditioner, Isolation and Protection unit that would not have the restrictions of the many units currently on the market from an amplifier performance perspective.
Benefits of Bryston BIT Power Isolation Units:
Benefit #1: Very low source impedance and high current for the power amplifier
BRYTSTON power isolation units present low impedance to any electronic device that is connected to them. A Single 20 amp BIT PIU has an output impedance of 0.2 ohms and can deliver 400 amp peaks (instantaneous current). The 100 amp unit only has .04 Ohms of output impedance. A typical 200 watt audio power amplifier demands 10 amps RMS current from a 120 volt line (1200VA) but may demand up to 50 amp instantaneous peaks. The standard residential wall receptacle can't supply the 50 amp peaks because they typically have higher nominal impedance. A BIT 20 amp PIU plugged into the same wall plug can supply these peak current requirements quite easily.
Benefit #2: Power surge protection using Series Mode Surge Suppression rather than MOV's
The BIT power products use the finest, most elaborate surge suppression technology available. Series Mode Surge Suppression does not shunt the spike to ground like MOV's do, and therefore the ground is infinitely more stable in a BIT power device. Additionally, most MOV-based surge suppression units allow as much as 300 volts through to the protected components, easily enough to do substantial damage, where as BIT surge suppression has clamping voltage onset of around 2V above peak nominal voltage. BIT units are built to meet 6000 volts, 3000 amps at 1000 repeats standard.
Benefit #3: Total isolation from outside power grid
BIT power products provide isolation through its finest designed toroidal transformer between the outside power grid and the devices being protected. Such isolation helps to reject external noise sources such as motors, lights, and dimmers commonly found in the home environment. BIT power products provide noise filtering at a range from approximately 2000Hz to over 1MHz – other regular transformer based products do not start operating until nearly 10,000 Hz.
Benefit #4: High Power Capability
There are 15 models of BIT power products available ranging from 15 amps to 100 amps and 120/240 Volts.
Benefit# 5: Low Noise
Bryston BIT products utilize ‘LONO’ (Low Noise) transformer design technology that eliminates audible noise in the power transformer regardless of line conditions, DC offset and over-voltage. BIT products perform at the NC10 level measured on the standard NC (Noise Criteria) – which makes them suitable for use in very quiet environments such as professional recording and broadcast studios.
Benefit # 6: Cleaner Power
Bryston BIT products utilize “NBT” (Narrow Bandwidth Technology) to attenuate differential and common-mode noise without external circuits or components, and starting at a lower corner frequency (2Khz) than other systems. The BIT result is startling – see press and user comments!
Benefit # 7: AVR (optional automatic voltage regulation)
The new feature is Automatic Voltage Regulator (AVR). The AVR would make sure that the output voltage of the unit stays uniform within an acceptable range when the input voltage is either increased from or dropped below the acceptable range.The purpose is to keep the output voltage uniform when the input voltage varies over a wide range from 130V to 95V for the North American models and 260V to 190V for the International models and to shut the system down if the input voltage goes above 135V or below 90V for North American models and above 270V or below 180 for the International models.
James Tanner,
Bryston
James-
Is any of this technology in your later 28 Squared Amps?
g e
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James, is this the white paper that you've just posted?
Edited to add: What about wall-warts? Most line conditioners -- including Bryston's -- provide very little space for wall-wart power adapters, which often like to spread themselves over two or more power outlets.
Hi
No the whitepaper was on Bryston speakers.
Wall-warts?
james
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James-
Is any of this technology in your later 28 Squared Amps?
g e
Hi
Yes the #1 benefit is used in the 7B, 14B and 28B's.
james