Name the "Beast/HT4"

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jsalk

Re: Status on HT4?
« Reply #400 on: 18 Nov 2009, 05:26 pm »
Could the "issue" with the FAL C-60 driver be a result of your crossover design?

AKAIK, the C-60 was designed to run full range with no crossover in front of it.

Are you using the silver or copper wire version?

The problem is not with the crossover.  We are able to reproduce the phenomenon with the crossover and without, in free air or mounted in a cabinet. And I seriously doubt the wire version could have any impact with respect to this issue.  I think the problem is mechanical in nature.

Of the eight test drivers we have received so far, one driver did not exhibit the phenomenon and performed flawlessly.  New test units have just been shipped from Japan and may perform flawlessly as well, but only time will tell.

For 98% percent of the music we have played on the speaker, there is no problem.  But we ran across three musical selections that caused the driver to go into an oscillation of some sort.

I don't know exactly what is happening, but here is my theory...

In order to keep the sensitivity up, the voice coil is positioned in the middle of a relatively tight magnet gap.  At a certain frequency and drive level, the cone starts to flex causing the wires of the voice coil to vibrate and come into direct contact with the magnets themselves.  Upon close inspection, you can actually see this happen. This produces a very irritating and startling sound.

If you widen the gap, you could probably eliminate this.  But the sensitivity of the driver would suffer. 

In order to address this, FAL produced test units where they re-positioned the magnets and moved them slightly closer to the center of the cone where the distance the voice coil could travel during cone flexing was reduced.  The driver that did not fail was one of these.  But, unfortunately, it was only one out of four with this new configuration.  So that did not completely address the situation.

When we first noticed this issue, we tried isolating the cause of the problem.  We ran test tones and found that this oscillation always occurred between 1100 and 1200 Hz - sometimes 1125Hz, sometimes 1175Hz, etc.  We were able to induce the oscillation with every driver tested except one.

This issue does not present itself, even at relatively high volume levels, in normal use except in those very rare cases where there is a saturation of energy in that frequency band.  We have only found three musical cuts so far that excite the driver.

But we certainly would not sell a speaker that can play every musical selection except three.  If it can't play everything we throw at it, we simply can't use it.

I should point out that FAL has been very responsive and has gone to great lengths to resolve the issue.  They have been a pleasure to work with and are totally committed.  So we hope the results of their efforts will be fruitful and we can look forward to a long and happy relationship.

The good news is we will either have FAL drivers that have addressed this issue or we will switch to another driver that, in tests so far, appears to equal (and in some ways surpass) the performance of the FAL.  So we are covered either way and will finally put the design to bed shortly.

- Jim

Big Red Machine

Re: Name the "Beast/HT4"
« Reply #401 on: 18 Nov 2009, 05:40 pm »
30 years ago I was designing receivers (ear piece devices) for telephone handsets.  I was involved in EVERY aspect from design, to tooling, to actually supervising the crew who had to manufacture the new design we came up with.

This exact issue was something we needed to manufacture around, so to speak, by adjusting the magnet assembly carefully into the housing just far enough to meet our desired frequency response on the monitor.  We eventually found ways to bring the magnet into the correct range and then glue it in place with rapid pace.  The variables that would affect you were the final dimensions of the cone itself which in our case included a centerpiece magnet formed into an aluminum cone, the windings of the core piece and its final magnetic properties, the signal you fed it, and som eother mechanical items.  Given these parameters, it is easy to see how the quality control at FAL may be allowing some "out of spec" drivers to slip through.  They may be able to tighten their controls first and then find a way to recover efficiency later.  It may not be a design issue at all, but a process issue.

jsalk

Re: Name the "Beast/HT4"
« Reply #402 on: 18 Nov 2009, 07:08 pm »
30 years ago I was designing receivers (ear piece devices) for telephone handsets.  I was involved in EVERY aspect from design, to tooling, to actually supervising the crew who had to manufacture the new design we came up with.

This exact issue was something we needed to manufacture around, so to speak, by adjusting the magnet assembly carefully into the housing just far enough to meet our desired frequency response on the monitor.  We eventually found ways to bring the magnet into the correct range and then glue it in place with rapid pace.  The variables that would affect you were the final dimensions of the cone itself which in our case included a centerpiece magnet formed into an aluminum cone, the windings of the core piece and its final magnetic properties, the signal you fed it, and som eother mechanical items.  Given these parameters, it is easy to see how the quality control at FAL may be allowing some "out of spec" drivers to slip through.  They may be able to tighten their controls first and then find a way to recover efficiency later.  It may not be a design issue at all, but a process issue.

That is entirely possible and, if so, it is a yield issue.  They obviously can't afford a 10% success rate and we couldn't afford to return a high percentage of drivers.  So we'll just have to wait and see.

- Jim

audiotom

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    • for everything music
Re: Name the "Beast/HT4"
« Reply #403 on: 17 Jul 2010, 03:30 am »

Jim

going to be up early august
would love to hear your new speakers

Tom

jsalk

Re: Name the "Beast/HT4"
« Reply #404 on: 17 Jul 2010, 11:58 am »
Jim

going to be up early august
would love to hear your new speakers

Tom

Tom -

Just let me know when you'll be here and we'll try and set something up.  We'll be in San Francisco at the CA Audio Show with my personal SoundScapes on July 30, 31 and August 1.  Will ship the SoundScapes back on August 2nd.  If they are not back in time, we'll have to cobble together a prototype pair to listen to.  But we'll make it happen.

- Jim

audiotom

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 648
  • Ground control to Major Tom
    • for everything music
Re: Name the "Beast/HT4"
« Reply #405 on: 19 Jul 2010, 11:20 pm »
Jim

here's to a smooth California welcome
enjoy unveiling the Soundscapes in San Fran
hope you get a lot of good audio traffic

they would sell very well and look great
in an ocean front view down the beach in Carmel!

I'll be in Michigan till Aug 9th
please don't worry about scrambling together an audition
if the timing isn't right

my friend Todd was blown away - thanks again for treating him to the wonderful demo