[mr_bill]

I dunno.  I shouldn't say anything, but this is driving me a little wacky.  What exactly are you breaking in?  Resistors?  Capaictors?  IC's?  And what exactly is the scientific basis for thinking there is anything to break in?   And do you really think you can compare what you're hearing after 70 hours with what you heard after one hour?  That would require a very carefully designed controlled experiment with two identical amplifers and speakers, one amp with 70 hours of use, and the other with one.  Obviously we're all entitled to our opinion, and everyone has a right to report those opinions, but in the end sound reproduction is a science.  And I hope we're all willing to take those opinions with several grains of kosher salt.  Let's see-- I think the flame suit is in the master bedroom closet.   Better check. 

I'm with you.  Way to many variables to claim these type of differences and I'm not directing my comment at BRM but all those that claim to hear all thes changes with electronic break in.  What changes is mood, psychology, background noise, blood sugar, stress, anticipation, etc.

[TRADERXFAN]

This kind of talk... - just looking for an argument?  Have anything to contribute to the subject of these particular amplifiers?

-Tony

[Big Red Machine]

I dunno.  I shouldn't say anything, but this is driving me a little wacky.  What exactly are you breaking in?  Resistors?  Capaictors?  IC's?  And what exactly is the scientific basis for thinking there is anything to break in?   And do you really think you can compare what you're hearing after 70 hours with what you heard after one hour?  That would require a very carefully designed controlled experiment with two identical amplifers and speakers, one amp with 70 hours of use, and the other with one.  Obviously we're all entitled to our opinion, and everyone has a right to report those opinions, but in the end sound reproduction is a science.  And I hope we're all willing to take those opinions with several grains of kosher salt.  Let's see-- I think the flame suit is in the master bedroom closet.   Better check. 

I'd say the sound after 72 hours is about what the sound was at 24 hours.  I was gone for 48 hours.  It sounds about the same as I can remember 48 hours prior.  But here's a straightforward example considering I NEVER believed in breakin before:  On the Regina Spektor track Fidelity, when I first listened to it my chair didn't vibrate and the room wasn't full of bass as I was accustomed to; now my chair practically levitates and the room is chock full of deep bass notes.  Something changed.  Don't know what but I certainly like the fullness now.  The top end is about the same as it was at the beginning.  This tune and all the tunes I have repeating I am very familiar with so when improvements occur I can pick them up.  Will the sound change any more from here on out, or can I even tell it does, don't know.  Did it really only take 24 hours to stabilize?  Maybe it was 3 hours and that occurred after I went to bed after the first 2 hours.  But I can assure you it got much better and specifically in the bass regions which was my earliest complaint (I would offer that added bass is easier to detect than subtle changes in high frequencies).  These amps are the real deal to me and the value they present is ridiculous compared to the multi-thousand dollar amps I have had in here.  I trust my ears (and the seat of my pants).

[mr_bill]

I dunno.  I shouldn't say anything, but this is driving me a little wacky.  What exactly are you breaking in?  Resistors?  Capaictors?  IC's?  And what exactly is the scientific basis for thinking there is anything to break in?   And do you really think you can compare what you're hearing after 70 hours with what you heard after one hour?  That would require a very carefully designed controlled experiment with two identical amplifers and speakers, one amp with 70 hours of use, and the other with one.  Obviously we're all entitled to our opinion, and everyone has a right to report those opinions, but in the end sound reproduction is a science.  And I hope we're all willing to take those opinions with several grains of kosher salt.  Let's see-- I think the flame suit is in the master bedroom closet.   Better check. 

I'd say the sound after 72 hours is about what the sound was at 24 hours.  I was gone for 48 hours.  It sounds about the same as I can remember 48 hours prior.  But here's a straightforward example considering I NEVER believed in breakin before:  On the Regina Spektor track Fidelity, when I first listened to it my chair didn't vibrate and the room wasn't full of bass as I was accustomed to; now my chair practically levitates and the room is chock full of deep bass notes.  Something changed.  Don't know what but I certainly like the fullness now.  The top end is about the same as it was at the beginning.  This tune and all the tunes I have repeating I am very familiar with so when improvements occur I can pick them up.  Will the sound change any more from here on out, or can I even tell it does, don't know.  Did it really only take 24 hours to stabilize?  Maybe it was 3 hours and that occurred after I went to bed after the first 2 hours.  But I can assure you it got much better and specifically in the bass regions which was my earliest complaint (I would offer that added bass is easier to detect than subtle changes in high frequencies).  These amps are the real deal to me and the value they present is ridiculous compared to the multi-thousand dollar amps I have had in here.  I trust my ears (and the seat of my pants).

BRM,
Thank you for sharing your review and experience with these amps.  I do appreciate it and these seem to be some very high value amplifiers!
Great purchase!

[chadh]

I trust my ears (and the seat of my pants).

Tyson just started a thread about those who appreciate music (and equipment) in the "head", "heart" or "gut."  Seems he should have included "seat of the pants" as well.

The cat's out of the bag, Pete.  You're an ass man!

Chad

[DMurphy]

Well, I still don't believe in the general proposition of break-in, and I've never seen a rigorous basis for it, but if the seat vibrates, the seat vibrates.  I think there is probably something else going on here, since I doubt that the amplifier was designed using only components that had been broken infor long hours.  It still sounds like some kind of phase issue.  But I'm not going to take on a vibrating chair.  Sounds dangerous. 

[R Swerdlow]

I have to side with Dennis when he says "…sound reproduction is a science".  We are all entitled to our opinions and we all have the right to report our opinions and observations.  But it seems wrong to me when an opinion or a personal observation describing amplifier break-in is reported as if it were a scientifically determined fact.  I don't believe the poster meant his words to be taken as scientific fact, but his choice of words can make it seem like that to some readers.  In a forum like this, there are many readers with backgrounds and experience that vary widely.  It is easy for less experienced readers to believe that an opinion is actually a widely recognized fact.

Here are several examples from Big Red Machine.  I'm not picking on you, but I am using your words to illustrate my point:

I'd say the sound after 72 hours is about what the sound was at 24 hours.… It sounds about the same as I can remember 48 hours prior.

BRM states this as one man's experience rather than as broad fact.  That's a step in the right direction, and it is much better than some earlier statements.  Still I wonder how well he or anyone else can distinguish differences in what he heard in two sessions separated by 48 hours.  There are scientific methods that can help determine this.  They can be time consuming and boring and I doubt if BRM did them.  I know I don't want to.  The best thing to say is to state that it is personal opinion, which he does here.

On the Regina Spektor track Fidelity, when I first listened to it my chair didn't vibrate and the room wasn't full of bass as I was accustomed to; now my chair practically levitates and the room is chock full of deep bass notes.  Something changed.  Don't know what but I certainly like the fullness now.

This is better.  It is clearly worded as personal experience – except for the "my chair practically levitates" part – but I'll let that go .  I've heard of room resonances, but maybe chair resonance is a first  .

The top end is about the same as it was at the beginning.  This tune and all the tunes I have repeating I am very familiar with so when improvements occur I can pick them up.

How reliably can you or anyone else pick these up?  Again, this is measurable, but unless you’ve done those measurements, don't say what improvements you can pick up.  It would be better to say, "the top end seems about the same as it was at the beginning, but I can't say this for certain".

I think you get my drift here.  There are easy ways to say, "This is my observation" or "This is my opinion based on my own experience" that avoid misleading unsuspecting readers into believing that something is scientifically determined and accepted as fact by many others.

[DMurphy]

I didn't really mean to take the big machine on like that.  I think people realize he's expressing an opinion.  I guess amplifier talk in general drives me crazy--just like sports talk does.  I guess it's because I'm not any good at either one.  I listen to one amp, and it sounds like the other amp.   I listen to one speaker, and it never sounds like the other speaker.  I'm just not an amplifier-type guy.  So I'll stay out of amp threads in the future. 

[TooManyToys]

- - - little stock in this forum; fmtrvt on others.

I picked up a W4S 5 channel the other week while I'm waiting for my JC-1s to show up.  This is to replace a Parasound A21, which replaced Emotiva MPS-1.

I did not like the first hour with this amp.  I acquired it from another AV123 member who also has Ref 3s and stated it had very strong in bass, the reason I was going for JC-1s.  In my system it does, but I feel the top end to be a little thin (note - using RCA connectors).  In one review of the W4S amps, the writer stated he thought the amp needed to warm up.  So I did that for a full day, and when coming back to it I thought it improved.  With some more time, I don't find any difference with warm-up.

I'm still not sure if I like this in my system.  The amp has great clarity, more so then the two amps that preceded it.  But I'm all SS, while the previous owner had tubes in front of it.  The JC-1s are scheduled to arrive on Monday, so next week should be interesting for me.

[JP78]

i've owned an ice powered amp before (av reality ear mono pyramids), and fell in love with the sound only after i inserted a tubed preamplifier.  as far as means to an end go, i really appreciate the elegance of icepower on paper.  as good as it is, i've never found an involvement factor to fall in love with from a digital or solid-state amplifier without a tubed (single ended) preamplifier and/or tubed output source.


maybe it makes me a toob guy, but the control of digital sources + the bloom of tubes = heaven.  what's the associated equipment big red?

best of luck, and i look forward to your thoughts.

jp

[JP78]

I have to side with Dennis when he says "…sound reproduction is a science".  We are all entitled to our opinions and we all have the right to report our opinions and observations.  But it seems wrong to me when an opinion or a personal observation describing amplifier break-in is reported as if it were a scientifically determined fact. 

big red is making a statement that his seat is shaking now when it previously wasn't before due to no other changes in his system except time spent running. if we're going to be cut and dry about it, then per scientific fact and logic you can either:

a) believe his statements as the truth

b) believe his statements are not the truth (i.e. false)

c) find some bs way to rationlize his statements as not-true but somehow respectfully valid thus wasting bytes and virtual ink.

making respectful high-brow arguments about the validity of scientific method here is otherwise pointless for the sake of furthering discussion.

finally, in a hobby where personal preference is equal to scientific validity, scientific validity alone is not a suitable judge.  you would not be encompassing all the variables of the equation of satisfaction; mainly the continuously changing variable of what appeals to the individual listener.

[hmen]

I've had the SX200's running the woofers on my VMPS RM40's and I have to say that I've experienced some pretty scary room resonances in the past couple of days. I can definitely vouch for their bass output but I found the bass output very impressive right out of the box. I'm using Atma-Spher M60's on top and the couple of times (last time after about 50 hours). I tried the SX200s full range I didn't feel they  measured up to the M60's on top.       
As for the break-in comtroversy, the owners manual said the amps require 300 hours of break-in. I'm going to send them an email asking if they can explain what happens during the process.     

[Big Red Machine]

Some of you want to make this a scientific discussion.  I don't.  Something happened after hour 2.  I have left these running in the same set-up for 4 days now and left my Modwright on the whole time using the SB and a long Playlist.

If the amp didn't change then I would have sent them back by now.  If you read my posts you will see that there was no bass to speak of at first.  I did reconnect the cables several times and did switch the XLR/RCA switch commensurate with the cable changes and while I didn't notice any added bass (I was dissapointed, but hopeful from the start) I found the XLR outputs with higher gain played more effortlessly and had more body to the music than the SE connections.

I'm not really a break-in believer, especially with speakers beyond 10 minutes of play, so I was surprised these amps did improve enough to the point that I am keeping them and may buy another for the HT center channel after I experiment there on my 4 ohm V Monster Center (we're talking potential for 1000 watts here!).

So don't pick apart my words or attempt to get me to write differently.  That's not gonna happen.  System synergy is always key and I am pretty excited with how these sound now and I'm pushing for the 300 hours Rick suggests just so the complainers here can't say I didn't give them enough "time".  Rick did not help me understand what might change over time.  But you have to understand I am not sitting in front of the speaker for the continual 300 hours.  If I'm lucky I get an hour every other day.  I don't expect any more changes, but I'm open to all possibilities since I'm in no hurry to send them back.

And yes, I would recommend a tube pre with SS amps everyday BTW. in case you're wondering.

[zybar]

I've had the SX200's running the woofers on my VMPS RM40's and I have to say that I've experienced some pretty scary room resonances in the past couple of days. I can definitely vouch for their bass output but I found the bass output very impressive right out of the box. I'm using Atma-Spher M60's on top and the couple of times (last time after about 50 hours). I tried the SX200s full range I didn't feel they  measured up to the M60's on top.       
As for the break-in comtroversy, the owners manual said the amps require 300 hours of break-in. I'm going to send them an email asking if they can explain what happens during the process.     

Very few amps period will match the M60's when properly matched to an appropriate speaker.   aa

George

[Miney]

I am pretty excited with how these sound now

There's what matters most...  carry on, BRM.

[Big Red Machine]

Just for kicks, the temperature of the top cases are 79 F and the side vents are 83 F.  In comparison, the top of my tube preamp is 93 after almost 5 solid days of playing music.

[hmen]

Just for kicks, the temperature of the top cases are 79 F and the side vents are 83 F.  In comparison, the top of my tube preamp is 93 after almost 5 solid days of playing music.

I just checked my system after about ten hours non-stop. The Wyred4Sound amps are room temperature. Not even the vents have any sign of heat coming from them. The Atma-Sphere M60's are about 110 degees from 3 three feet away.
I'm really beginning to like this combo.   
 

[Kokishin]

I'm graduated from Georgia Tech with a EE degree many years ago.  Among other courses, I took analog courses including one on amplifier design.  I too cannot fully understand (short term) amp break in other than all electronic components are spec'd with a tolerance such as (examples) resistors with +/- 5% tolerance, caps with +/- 20% tolerance, etc.  All component have tolerances that varies with voltage, current, temperature, age, etc.  That might explain at some level this amp break in phenomenon.  Possibly more likely, Big Red switched to the dual differential balanced inputs which have additional gain than the single ended inputs. 

Dennis: please NEVER shy away from expressing your opinion.  Anyone that is familiar with your skills, experience, and reputation, should minimally listen and give your opinions serious consideration.  I know I do.

I didn't really mean to take the big machine on like that.  I think people realize he's expressing an opinion.  I guess amplifier talk in general drives me crazy--just like sports talk does.  I guess it's because I'm not any good at either one.  I listen to one amp, and it sounds like the other amp.   I listen to one speaker, and it never sounds like the other speaker.  I'm just not an amplifier-type guy.  So I'll stay out of amp threads in the future. 

[Big Red Machine]

Found this review on Audiogon:

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=df7c5tcg_0ctrptmf6

[Philistine]

Pete - thanks for posting the review link, I have a few questions as the next project for me is to bi-amp my HT3's and the W4S range could be a great opportunity to do this.  I'm currently using a 500 watt/channel Musical Fidelity amp and consider that HT3's come alive with a strong amp, particularly driving the super fast and deep digging woofer.  I love my HT3's and feel that it's possible to wring even more performance out of them by taking the bi-amp route.

So, are your comments on the W4S based on their performance with the HT3's and, have you considered them for bi-amping?

Thanks
Phil