[Agisthos]

A few months back Hugh you were raving about this new transmission line speaker design but now we have not heard a peep about it for a long time.

Is it still on even though you are not doing amp kits any more?

[AKSA]

Agisthos,

The VSonics are coming along very nicely, thank you!  I have already done one revision of the crossover pcb, and have double validated the crossover design, and am now finalising suppliers for some of the internal bits and pieces.

BUT, you have to understand that documentation and sourcing and double validation to ensure that all is well takes a lot of time.  Better to have performance exhaustively validated now rather than after release when the customer might find faults.  I've poured a lot of time and resources into this design, and it's a cracker, but I must be absolutely sure, and I must be ready for an initial rush.

I've found over the years that it's a big step from design to production release.  Can't be too careful!

Thanks for asking, Agisthos (BTW, does this mean you are keen on horses??)

Cheers,

Hugh

[dayneger]

Hi Hugh!

I've been curious about your new speaker for some time now. Any idea on how much power it'll take to drive the Vsonics? A guess as to their sensitivity?

It certainly is a good idea getting everything ironed out completely before they hit the market. Doesn't help with my perennial impatience, however. . . 

Cheers,

Dayne

[AKSA]

Hi Dayne,

Welcome back, and thanks for the inquiry.

All indications are 40W and above to around 150W will be fine.  I have even driven them comfortably at moderate listening levels with a 1.8W fire breathing single ended tube amp.  The resolution and detail is quite amazing, and yet the more powerful Lifeforce and Soraya power amps give a sense of scale unmatched by any other speaks I've owned or heard.

Sensitivity is at 90db/watt/meter.  FR is 3dB down at 22KHz and 36Hz but this says little about the impact and tunefulness of the bass.  Tomorrow Laurie and I are finalising some finer manipulations of the impedance dip, which is presently to 4.2R, so is very easy to drive.  I would like to get it to 5.5R.

Cheers,

Hugh 

[rabbitz]

Tomorrow Laurie and I are finalising some finer manipulations of the impedance dip, which is presently to 4.2R, so is very easy to drive.  I would like to get it to 5.5R.

Cheers,

Hugh 

Leave some work for the amp.... you'll spoil them if you make it too easy.

Peter, I'm sure this is good advice.  Good design is the artful management of compromise, and taking it too far towards technical perfection could well damage the sonics....  thank you!   
Hugh

[AKSAphile]

Hugh, what are outer dimensions of Vsonics loudspeakers?

[AKSA]

Hi Andrej,

The unit is a floor stander, very narrow, not very tall (less than 900mm), and quite deep (this for the WAF, you can place two vases of flowers on the top, an important consideration):

Height:  35" (890mm)
Width:  9"    (230mm)
Depth:  16"  (410mm)

The narrowness is a revelation;  only an inch wider than the speaker driver.  This improves edge effects and enhances room fill.  The depth accommodates a triple fold in a short speaker - we found a triple fold sounded much better at lower volumes than a double fold, and lost nothing at high volume.  Because it's a two way, and the crossover is utterly seamless, there is no bandpass for the midrange and the mid bass and higher resolution appears to be superior to any three way I've heard.  Crossover is third order for both drivers at 2600Hz.  The tweeter (921 from Peerless) is better than the XT25 I was using in the AKSonics, and the 8" woofer (884 from Peerless) is absolutely the best driver of its type I have ever heard.  Force factor is 8, Q around 4.1, and cone mass only 25.9 grams.  The material is nomex, a processed form of hemp, and for the money this is 1 helluva speaker driver.  I've commissioned a prestige furniture craftsman to do a premium version of the enclosures, and they will be sold as retail products for around $AUD8K here in Australia.  The kit of parts will include everything except drivers and timber (which will be around the $US550 mark) and will sell for $AUD1300.  These prices are not inexpensive, I concede, but this speaker has a sense of scale, sound field and resolution to die for and knocks over much more expensive systems I've heard, which all make the mistake of using too many drivers presumably for visual and marketing effect.  The speakers have been built by an ex-DST senior technician and a 40 year career speaker consultant for B&W, and are now the primary speakers in their collections, quite a privilege.  Our exhaustive design and testing of the crossover - we are at it again today to hopefully raise the impedance dip to 5.5R - used Xover Pro as a first pass then thousands of collective hours of testing to refine this further with special attention to the subjective effects.  It's very lean, and very effective, and rivals absolutely any active system.

Design phase has consumed almost a full year now.

Hope this gives you some indication of how the VSonics have been conceived, built and refined!

Cheers,

Hugh

[dayneger]

Hi Hugh,

Sounds like a very interesting project! I'm also pleased that the F3 is below 40 Hz, which I imagine is due in part to using the 8" driver instead of 6.5".

I know very, very little about speaker design, so pardon the neophyte question: will using that 8" crossed over at what sounds like a fairly high 2600 Hz tend to make the speaker a little beamy (directional)? The consideration is that I'm a big fan of large (or perhaps forgiving is a more apt description?) sweet spots that are still enjoyable from off-axis.

Speaking of WAF, how far from the rear wall do the baffles have to be before they start to really sing? This has been one of my long-running battles. . . 

Are there multiple drivers? I'm a little unsure how you got to USD 550 for non-kit materials. The Peerless 8" 884 (the 830884?) seems to run around $80 and the 910921 $60. Adding in some shipping, 160 + 120 + 30 = $310. Were you also guestimating at the wood and veneer costs? Or am I just missing something?

I dislike grills but kids do get their thrills pushing on those big, black, silky dome tweeters.    Are grills and magnets part of the package?

Do the Vsonics hold the Linkwitz Orions at bay? 

Cheers,

Dayne

[rabbitz]

The Peerless 830884 betters a large proportion of 6.5" drivers in off axis as well as mid performance. It looks as if it's been designed with that in mind and it's a true mid woofer and not just a woofer as is the case with most 8" drivers.
http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=4

I can vouch for the sound quality using the Nomex cone (830875) as beats the polypropylene and was very surprised it beats sandwich cones which was one of my favourites.

Hugh... I didn't mean spoil the sound of the speaker but to have the amp earn it's keep by doing some work. I dunno, these amp designers trying make a speaker so the amp can put it's feet up.   

[AKSA]

Hi Dayne,

All very good questions!!  Thanks for articulating what must be of interest to all people here, these are something.  I've just today put finishing touches to the crossovers and absolutely hit the bullseye.  I'm jubilant;  the results are stellar, this is an astonishing speaker.

As always with speaker design, the final 15% takes 60% of the time.  However, I succeeded in bringing the impedance dip up from 4R to 5.2R, and simultaneously bringing a very slightly recessed female vocal forward to a level of intimacy most of us prefer.  The bass is even stronger, and the midrange more refined still.  Vitality is remarkable, you really think you are there!  All in all, a ripping corker of a speaker, and extremely easy to drive.

Sounds like a very interesting project! I'm also pleased that the F3 is below 40 Hz, which I imagine is due in part to using the 8" driver instead of 6.5".

I know very, very little about speaker design, so pardon the neophyte question: will using that 8" crossed over at what sounds like a fairly high 2600 Hz tend to make the speaker a little beamy (directional)? The consideration is that I'm a big fan of large (or perhaps forgiving is a more apt description?) sweet spots that are still enjoyable from off-axis.

Yes, very true, the 8" is the go, no question.  This driver is exceptionally well designed and gives nothing away in speed to the 6.5" driver used on the AKSonics, which has been a surprise.

As Peter says, this is NOT a beamy driver.  There is a phase plug, and a special moulded cone at the center of the driver which handles higher frequencies a bit like the whizzer cone on a Lowther, and it works extremely well.  You can walk well forward and outside the two speakers and still perceive a very stable sound field.  From another room, or from outside the listening room in the garden, the quality is very integrated and realistic.  This beamy nature dominates with electrostatics, and is one of my pet dislikes.  Like you, I like a speaker to sound like the real thing from lots of different locations.

Speaking of WAF, how far from the rear wall do the baffles have to be before they start to really sing? This has been one of my long-running battles. . .

The vent is at front, and since the depth is almost 18", these speakers can in fact be mounted right up against the wall with no diminution of image or sound field.  This is a huge advantage for small apartments, as you suggest.

Are there multiple drivers? I'm a little unsure how you got to USD 550 for non-kit materials. The Peerless 8" 884 (the 830884?) seems to run around $80 and the 910921 $60. Adding in some shipping, 160 + 120 + 30 = $310. Were you also guestimating at the wood and veneer costs? Or am I just missing something?

I dislike grills but kids do get their thrills pushing on those big, black, silky dome tweeters.    Are grills and magnets part of the package?

Just two drivers per speaker, the 8" 884 and the 1" silk dome 921.  My prices were based on what we pay in Oz, which is far more expensive than the US for shipping reasons.  However, I was assuming timber and veneering costs as well.

Grill material and clips will indeed be included in the kit.

Do the Vsonics hold the Linkwitz Orions at bay?

At the risk of hate mail from a few of the more notables on the OUG forum, I believe so.  But I will admit I've not ABed them, and for this purpose would need to take a trip down to Marcus Aurelius for a pleasant session of comparison.  As you may be aware, I shy away from active systems, largely for reasons of cost, but a few I've heard definitely do perform very well.  The shortcomings of actives, in my view, can be sheeted home more to the electronics than the speakers themselves - but again, the jury is out and lots of knowledgeable people hold passionate views which I cannot dispute.

Peter,

I do try to make all links in the chain as optimal as possible.  The easier the speaker is to drive, the better the sound from a given amp, and my designs are no different.  I don't pretend to be a speaker designer, though I had a big hand in the final tweaking of the crossover, but I did find that my knowledge of electronics was very helpful here, and I was able to jump straight to workable solutions which bested the Xover Pro models.  I will cynically admit that this did not surprise me;  I have used PSpice for circuit modelling, but have been disappointed with the correlations with the real world, subjective sonic performance.

Cheers,

Hugh

[JLM]

Hugh,

Seems like a good design with good drivers.  Was thrown off by the $550 USD price for what apparently was only plans plus crossover, but no worries now.  Still hard to imagine how the price inflates to $8k AUS for the completed version.   Would that include retail/distribution margins?

I've listened to transmission line (TL) designs for over 30 years and doubt that I'd own anything else.  The musical, impactful bass and clear midrange compares to nothing else.  Did you use Martin King's MathCad application to design it?  Does this design have any significant length at the "dead end" of the TL?

Any interest in raising the drivers up a bit more to a more common ear level?  (With any "dead end" in the design I'd imagine that the drivers are sitting quite low.)  My speakers (Bob Brines FTA-2000) are about 48 inches high in order to get the single driver centered at ear height (my ear, my chair).

As an electronics guy and amp builder I'd hope you would consider an active version.  As an owner of active speakers (and having listened to active/passive versions of the same Paradigm speakers and heard the tremendous, undeniable advantages) I'm a big proponent of active.

Comparisons between Orion and this speaker would be apples to oranges (open baffle vs transmission line and active vs. passive).

[AKSAphile]

Thank you Hugh for technical explanation

Do you find Peerlees tweeter better than Vifa XT25 just in this driver combinations better or it is generally looking better product? The XT25 tweeter seems to be still quite popular these days..

[rabbitz]

Hugh... you are right about bettering the software models as that's all they are. Speaker voicing is still a lot of black art and heaps of fun.

The XT25 tweeter is great when implemented properly but is very hard to get right and in that regard, prefer the DX25. The Peerless is a gem and rated higher than the XT25.... up there with Scan Speak etc. So, Hugh has chosen wisely IMO. Have a look at some comments from Zaph.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/

[dayneger]

Hugh, thanks for the elaboration!

The forgiving off-axis response sounds great, and it's nifty that the 8" is able to keep up with the speed of the 6.5"!    I don't suppose there's a version of the 830884 with a black frame?

The apparent flexibility of the speaker placement is also enticing, although I admit to a certain amount of skepticism since I have never personally heard a pair of speakers soundstage properly with the baffles only 18" from the rear ball. I hope to be pleasantly surprised!

I have the XT25 in my current speakers and am curious to hear the 910921. A huge advantage of the XT25, of course, is that the big button that the kids like to push in is just the plug, so I haven't needed grills!    When you mentioned clips for the grills, are these magnetic ones? I highly prefer the aesthetics of baffles that are unmarred by the grill mounting holes, especially for this performance category.

JLM, good question about the listening height, since I also like my tweeters a little higher. At least with most speakers I've heard.

I would politely disagree with your questioning the relevance/applicability of comparing, say, AKSA-driven Orions with AKSA-driven Vsonics. You're completely right that the two speaker systems are different in nature, but the goal of both systems is, at least for me, identical--generating the most enjoyable, genuine and natural-sounding music reproduction possible in the home. How well the systems fulfill that goal is what really matters to me and forms the basis for my comparison, not the technical manner in which they attempt to achieve it. Unless, of course, they're heinously ugly or unpayable! 

Cheers!

Dayne

[Seano]

Still hard to imagine how the price inflates to $8k AUS for the completed version.   Would that include retail/distribution margins?

Ohhhhh...that's easy!!  And yep it would include Hugh's margin.

Speaker components in Aus cost a bomb in small quantities...basically Hugh'd be paying nearly retail for most of the components. 

But the boxes will be the killer - when a cabinet maker charges AU$75 per man hour plus materials and finishing to a high standard takes days.......I'd be rather surprised if Hugh wouldn't end up paying a couple of grand for one pair of enclosures.  If the customer would be satisfied with white melamine then they'd save thousands!!!!

[AKSA]

Hi Sean,

Remarkably close......  man, do you know your prices!!

Speakers normally carry very high margins, BTW, since there is huge risk in their marketing, reflecting the very different subjective tastes of consumers.  Many high end shops consider 80% about average.

Anton is one of Melbourne's best furniture makers.  He has pieces which are exquisite, costing up to $US10K.  His build quality is the stuff of legend, and of course he ain't cheap.

http://www.antongerner.com.au/

Dayne,

No black frame to my knowledge.  However, if you wait a couple of months, ScanSpeak will be rebadging these speakers with a black frame, two perfectly matched, same spec precisely, for around $US600 the pair.  They too, it seems, are impressed with these drivers.

Clips for the grills, magnetic?  I hadn't considered that.....  I would need to look into it.

Good point about the height, too, thanks JLM, might actually need stands, it would be a good touch.

Cheers,

Hugh

[dayneger]

Hugh,

That's a little strange about the silver when just about every other driver frame in the universe is black--including the Peerless tweeters. The Scan-Speaks would be a rather expensive way of getting a black version, though. . . 

Please no stands for the speakers, but maybe we could just modify the box height? Would raising the port exit height change any sound qualities?

I'm not sure exactly where the other speaker manufacturers source their neodymium magnets for the grills (perhaps one of the other fellows such as Danny at GR Research would help you here). In any case, you mount the magnet just under the surface of the veneer, allowing an unblemished baffle appearance. These rare earth magnets are quite powerful, though, and hold the speaker grills firmly in place.

Voila, grill protection without the ugliness of grill holes! 

Ciao,

Dayne

[Hegemony]

  I have a pair of these in my lounge room as I speak.  I am a big fan of the TL type sound.  I have probably listened to this pair of Vsonics (which are a little different in some respects to the final production design but essentially the same)  for over 50 hrs.  The comparison I would make is to the PMC range of speakers.  IMHO the Vsonics are a better unit than the FB1+, they are more open and effortless sounding...with a much sweeter top end.  I would put them somewhere in the vicinity of the OB1's in terms of listening enjoyment but they image more sharply and offer a deeper soundstage than the OB1's.  They easily cover every type of music, they image well, What the TL designs lack in ultimate low bass IMHO they make up for with tuneful bass which still sounds like music down low. 

I am very impressed.  I must admit this is about the 4th iteration of these, and they have improved each time.  I am listening through a modded SB3, LF55, Zhalou Dac.   

Sorry for the rushed review....not much time though and thought I would share my opinion on this speaker, It is one of the best I have heard.

Russ

[JLM]

Retail pricing of speakers are roughly 20 - 30 times the price of drivers/crossovers.  Direct purchase can save 1/2 to 2/3rds of what would be retail.  I only wonder about pricing to get a feel of how eager you are to get into the direct sales of completed pieces, not questioning profit margins (I know there's much easier ways to get rich  ).  My first DIY project were I. M. Fried TL bass units (2 bends, 3 "legs", roughly 30 cm x 60 cm x 90 cm).  It was the veneering that I should have left to the professionals.  But back then peel, stick, and iron veneers didn't exist.  Anyway, it was nearly impossible to get Bud Fried to deliver a finished speaker (he much preferred to do just kits).  He sold the finished bass cabinets for 8 - 10 times the price of the kit.  And in the 70's his bass kit with single 20 cm woofer cost as much as you're charging for the entire kit!  OTOH the box the kit came in was 60 cm x 60 cm x 120 cm with all the "on-edge" foam stuffing.

I know its "late in the game" but I'd recommend losing the low drivers/stand/two bends and just do a one bend floorstanding design to take up even less floor space, save money, and get the drivers closer to ear height.  I don't believe that changing the length of line from end to driver and driver to the other end should make a sonic difference.

Dayne, why not just paint the frame black?

My second favorite speaker design is open baffle and I'm a big fan of going active, so the Orion holds much interest (except for the price and complication).  My apples vs oranges comment was simply in reference to how the Orion dipole soundstaging and bass loading of the room would be completely different (and as I stated the undeniable advantages of flat response, improved dynamics, and super deep bass response afforded by going active).  I like apples and oranges and wouldn't want to give up either.

[Hegemony]

"I know its "late in the game" but I'd recommend losing the low drivers/stand/two bends and just do a one bend floorstanding design to take up even less floor space, save money, and get the drivers closer to ear height.  I don't believe that changing the length of line from end to driver and driver to the other end should make a sonic difference."

There is a difference in changing it from a one bend to a two bend.  I have the one bend design and it does not do things the same as the production design which has two bends.  The increase in floor space is almost negligable.  Given the design is a TL, I would have thought any change to the line is absolutely critical.  But I am no engineer I will admit. 

Russ