[ECM]

I picked up a pair of Reference 20's back in July and will be setting them up soon.  This is a move up from Ref9v2's and a Krell 400xi before that.

I've been using a PS Audio P-500 for quite some time, but I noticed the Ref9v2's didn't sound any different with or without the P-500.  Using the power meter built in to the P-500, they also draw very little power.

My whole front end has been updated as well and I can do without the P-500 (I had some US gear and converted the P-500 to accept 230v input with a 120v output).  Any advantages to using regenerated power with a switch mode power supply such as those in the Reference 20 amplifiers?

Regards,
ECM

[rustydoglim]

Simple answer is no.

[ECM]

Thanks, that's one less thing to clutter the audio rack.
 

[john925]

Simple answer is no.

Jason, any negative result if using power conditioner?

[KLH007]

I just had a first hand AC Conditioner experience at 2015 CAF, a speaker mfgr. put one in the system w/everything plugged into it, it took away some background hash/noise from the Hotel's AC, but it diminished dynamics and shrunk the soundstage, he lived with the noise and took the conditioner out. Amps were A/B with SWPS.

[rustydoglim]

We have the same experience several years ago. Generally we do not recommend any unnessary accessories (special power cord, expensive cables,  etc) until you are sure about why you need it and can tell the difference.
I like the philosophy from this new book http://musicandaudioguide.com

[rollo]

I just had a first hand AC Conditioner experience at 2015 CAF, a speaker mfgr. put one in the system w/everything plugged into it, it tookaway some background hash/noise from the Hotel's AC, but it diminished dynamics and shrunk the soindstage, he lived with the noise and took the conditioner out. Amps were A/B with SWPS.

   He used the wrong conditioner it appears.


charles

[mv]

   He used the wrong conditioner it appears.


charles

Which one is the correct conditioner?

[John Casler]

I tend to think that one needs to understand "why" they might want to use a Power Conditioner, AND what kind of "CONDITIONING" is being sought.

If you have power "issues" then a Conditioner/Regulator can have value, if you don't it may be $$ spent on something not needed.

There are several types of Conditioners:

1) Balanced Power
2) Power Regulation
3) Various Types of Filtration
4) Magic Boxes
5) High Quality Distribution Boxes
6) Combinations, or Other

Each type can have a positive (or even a negative) effect depending on your power.

I have tried, and sold most of not all the above, and have heard the differences they make when placed into a system.

The DOWNSIDE to the use of some of them, is that they can, if not large enough capacity, restrict current availability.

The upsides are that if you have any of the specific problems with your power, they can (if you choose the right one) help with those issues.

So, it takes a lot of thought about what you want to accomplish, what your specific gear might benefit from, and what your power issues are, to figure out if you need to consider one.

With most NuPRIME gear, including the Ref 20, which has the highest power needs, you will find, that you may not need some of the available Power Support that other brands might need, due to the lower Power needs and efficiency of the electronics.

On my personal system I "DO" use a VERY HIGH QUALITY "Distribution" System, that uses the highest quality Wall Plugs, wires, and other parts, which seems to work the best for me.  But as above, your needs may differ.

[KLH007]

Which one is the correct conditioner?

Charlie is fond of the Uber Buss product for AC conditioning.

[ECM]

A bit of background...

I used to live in Cyprus and the power there wasn't the greatest.  I also needed a way to change frequency from 50Hz to 60Hz for some Krell gear that had the frequency lock.  That's when I picked up the P-500 regenerator.  The guys over at PS Audio helped me in converting the unit to accept 230V 50Hz while maintaining the stock 120V 60Hz adjustable output (great company, BTW) for the Krell equipment.

(Turns out both my Krell integrated and disc player were dual frequency and I didn't need them after all, but I used the P-500 anyways.) 

A few years later, the fan went out in the P-500 and I sent it in for repair and power supply upgrade.  In the meantime I used a DIY, 800VA, balanced power step down transformer and you know what?  The sound got thin and sounded compressed.  No other changes had been made to my system.  I then built another 800VA unit to separate the front end from the amplifier and that helped.  I used Avel-Lindberg units.

When the P-500 was back in, all the dynamics and bass came back!  I think I was using too long a run between the transformers and the wall, about a 3m run with a fairly thin Nordost cable.

Moving to the Ref9v2's, I used the P-500, then removed it, and noticed very little to no change.  The power meter in the P-500 would hit close to 300 watts with the Krell integrated and MAYBE 75 watts with the Ref9's for the same output level.

I've also upgraded my DAC1 to a DAC2 and my turntable too.  All my gear now uses a SMPS and I can do without the P-500.

Reading Benchmark Media's white paper on the DAC2 convinced me to try amplifiers with an SMPS.  Interesting read on power supply noise.

Long story short, I'll set up my system without any conditioning and give it a go.  All equipment will be plugged in to a PS Audio Juicebar 2.

[gammajo]

ECM For what it is worth I use a PS Audio Quintet in a revealing system with Ref 20's, Von Schweikert VR55s, all Master Built Signature cords and an Ayon CD5s which has a tube rectified power supply. I have very clean power being the only whole on the outside transformer and dedicated lines way out in the country. I use the Quintet mainly as a power strip in that I need to unplug often for lightening March through September. I notice little difference plugged through the Quintet either pro (blacker backgrounds) or con (compression of dynamics. Hope this helps

[ECM]

Gammajo, sounds like we are hearing the same thing with these amps.

I finally got everything, minus the turntable, set up this weekend and I must say it sounds great!  I wasn't able to listen for an extended time, just about ten songs, but even straight from the factory cold, the amps sounded much smoother than the ref9's.  The midrange is top notch without any grain.

I'll type up a full write up once I get more listening time on them.

[john925]

ECM For what it is worth I use a PS Audio Quintet in a revealing system with Ref 20's, Von Schweikert VR55s, all Master Built Signature cords and an Ayon CD5s which has a tube rectified power supply. I have very clean power being the only whole on the outside transformer and dedicated lines way out in the country. I use the Quintet mainly as a power strip in that I need to unplug often for lightening March through September. I notice little difference plugged through the Quintet either pro (blacker backgrounds) or con (compression of dynamics. Hope this helps

gammajo,

How do you find the PS audio Quintet working as block of lightning?  My area also has a lot of lightning during summer. 

John

[gammajo]

ECM - I will be highly interested in your impressions of the Ref 20 once settled in. I have found that they do sound good on start up but best after about a two hour warm up (hard to tell because the rest of equipment is also warming up but I think the Ref 20s are considerable faster than other amps which seemed to take a day

John - as far as Quintet and lightening, hard to say because I do try to fully unplug when lightening is possible. But in using the Quintet I think for about five years there has been no failures of any equipment. Before the Quintet, also trying to unplug for lightening, I had experienced multiple equipment issues from full blowing of equipment after a clear strike to parts failing after more minor surges. I think the main protection which is also important is the repeated small surges that weaken equipment and I think Quintet does a good job of handling this.  I talked at length to PS Audio and they claimed their protection was quite robust. In the past I had APC which failed to protect and then failed to honor replacement policy and PanaMAx which failed to protect and they did replace all equipment affected.
Hope this helps.

[rustydoglim]

I never have power problem so perhaps John can share some insights.  It seems to me that theoretically a back up power supply should work very well. Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/APC-Smart-UPS-Battery-Backup-SMC1500/dp/B007ZT2KKM/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1442631089&sr=1-7&keywords=backup+power+supply

[gammajo]

Rusty
My problem with APC is that their unit did not protect (lost computer, two printers and a telephone all connected to their device) Then after tons of paper work and sending the unit back to them at my expense they pronounced there had been no lightening since their unit showed no damage. Went online and many similar stories. I would stick with PS Audio , Shunyata and other reputable companies.
That said, Rusty have you had many returns for repairs from lightening or surges? In the many years my friends and myself have been using Nuforce products I can't remember any failures due to surges or parts failure of any kind, so your products appear quite robust.

[rustydoglim]

Failure from lightening strikes and surges are very rare since most household circuit is already designed with that sort of protection. Furthermore, audiophiles use power strip with protection.
Didn't know APC is that bad.

[gammajo]

Just my experience with APC. I noticed in the add link to Amazon that they say protects from lightening, but no long states that the connecting equipment is guaranteed protected up to any dollar amount. Panamax used to guarantee (and honor it) up to $50,000 I believe.