[TheChairGuy]

....so I'm out enjoying an unusually slow Thursday afternoon last week.  I go to a local strip shopping center where there is my Safeway (supermarket), favorite bakery and, don't ya' know it, my local audio shop (World of Music) 

Sooooooo, my interest piqued in the past few weeks as the three cartridges I now have are in some ways each somewhat un-satisfying and talking to the erstwhile salesman (Phillip) there - I bought a Grado Green in the shop.

Maybe it, too, will be unsatisfying, maybe there is no cartridge at any sane price that fits my requirements, but I'm game to try.

Putting it thru break in process, with now about 15 hours on it....it makes nice music for $60.00.

Will report back on it when I have a more accurate and complete picture of it's sonic virtues and/or slights   

I'm kinda' surprised there isn't more reviews on this cartridge out on the 'net as it's the price point that's probably about tops for folks returning to vinyl or discovering it for the first time. And, Frank van Alstine has been peddling a Longhorn'ed version of it or it's forebears for some 25 years with success.  Finally, I had a (modded with damped coils by someone in New Jersey) Grado circa 1987 and on my then table, the original Townshend Rock with an Helius arm...and it had the finest bass reproduction I have ever heard of in a vinyl front end.

What part was cartridge and what part was Townshend Rock (with highly unusual damping trough in front of the headshell) I hope to find out with the Grado Green now.

[bpape]

Good luck.  Many years ago in a previous life I used to work at a place that sold Ortofon, Shure, Audioquest, and Grado for cartridges.  The previous version of the green was by far our best seller.  It's nothing earth shattering but for the money, it's tough to beat and has a nice top to bottom presentation.  I'd agree that it's forte is the bottom end.

Enjoy!

Bryan

[Psychicanimal]

Maybe it, too, will be unsatisfying, maybe there is no cartridge at any sane price that fits my requirements, but I'm game to try.

You're running in circles!

The X-5 is a budget (yet overpriced) cartridge.  I got mine for $115 brand new.

The Blue Point is an experiment in 'floating musicality' with poor tracking and definition (I had one--and never again).  I paid something like $150 @ Audio Advisor.

The 440 is another budget cartridge.

The cheaper Grado's are OK, but not special either ( I had a Blue, a friend has a Red ).

My suggestion:  call Kevin @ KAB Electroacoustics--tel him your desires...

[TheChairGuy]

PA,

No circles here - just quest for first hand knowledge.

I paid $200 for my Ortofon X5-MC.  It does nothing particularly offensive for that $$$ in my mind....but really is too lean to make my hips groove or my head bounce to the tunes.  Soundstaging/imaging is oft times wondrous, it is crystal clear, otherwise.

The Blue Point has been re-tipped with a boron van den Hul cantilever...poor tracking is no longer an issue (and the added Longhorn completes a better tracking picture of it); it is some other issue internally not making it a winner.  I may find that it is pointing to some other issue in my playback chain...or it may in fact stink for the most part.  I'll keep using it and decide.

The AT440ML may be budget priced.....but the microline stylus alone for under $100.00 is a complete rarity.  It most closely mimics CD playback - much of the good and some of the bad of it.

And, the Grado Green, now with 15+ hours on it is turning into a very nice performer.  Tho you have silicone damping on your Technics 1200 and this surely helps it along, you need to internally damp the coils and add the Longhorn stabilizer to make it perform leagues above it's paltry price.  Based on what I've read. I agree with you, the Grado line doesn't markedly/dramatically improve until you get to the $500.00 Sonata......as this model has a better stylus shape than all the others below it.  Tho without hearing them, I'm guessing again 

I totally admire Kevin's work, I've read his site many times, and see nothing in the way of cartridges that appeals to me there now.

[Psychicanimal]

PA,

No circles here - just quest for first hand knowledge.

I paid $200 for my Ortofon X5-MC.  It does nothing particularly offensive for that $$$ in my mind....but really is too lean to make my hips groove or my head bounce to the tunes.  Soundstaging/imaging is oft times wondrous, it is crystal clear, otherwise.

My stuff's been in storage for almost two years and it recently made its way to the Caribbean.  So far I've temporarily set up the DVD and belt drive transport w/ the speakers and a pair of monoblocks.  When I set up the 1200 I'm going to install the X-5 and check it out again.  I do reallize the tracking is not up to speed (as with most MCs) but it *does* play salsa right.  Have it play some 45 RPM dance singles and things do not look good...

The Blue Point has been re-tipped with a boron van den Hul cantilever...poor tracking is no longer an issue (and the added Longhorn completes a better tracking picture of it); it is some other issue internally not making it a winner.  I may find that it is pointing to some other issue in my playback chain...or it may in fact stink for the most part.  I'll keep using it and decide.

I think the BP is aimed at creating what I despectively name *analog* sound: bloated, slow and not real.  I bought mine after busting the stylus of my AT-15S, wanting to try a MC in my system (and not pay what the original AT replacement went for).  The Blue Point did not have the detail and musicality of the AT and it was a very poor tracker.  Installing a Discwasher Disctracker I had lying around improved things a lot.

The AT440ML may be budget priced.....but the microline stylus alone for under $100.00 is a complete rarity.  It most closely mimics CD playback - much of the good and some of the bad of it.

Hey, the 'bad of it' is in the recording, not the medium!

The stylus is pulling *uneditorialized* information from the grooves. Reality check for you, I'd say...

If you don't like this then the AT-15S is not for you.  It is a stellar performer and I'm going to save my pennies to get a couple NOS stylus for mine.

And, the Grado Green, now with 15+ hours on it is turning into a very nice performer.  Tho you have silicone damping on your Technics 1200 and this surely helps it along, you need to internally damp the coils and add the Longhorn stabilizer to make it perform leagues above it's paltry price.  Based on what I've read. I agree with you, the Grado line doesn't markedly/dramatically improve until you get to the $500.00 Sonata......as this model has a better stylus shape than all the others below it.  Tho without hearing them, I'm guessing again 

Are you seeing the pattern here?

There is a performance:price plateau, regardless of brand.  That's why professor Van Alstine can take the Grado Green and slingshot its performance.  That's why Kevin mods the Trackmaster and gets even higher performance, too! 

I totally admire Kevin's work, I've read his site many times, and see nothing in the way of cartridges that appeals to me there now.

I know, that's why I've been suggesting you to go for older, out of production  cartridges like the Stanton 881S and the AT-15S.  That's why I searched for a NOS first production Trackmaster I w/ half the coil windings of latter production runs (of the same model).  Now I'll have the midrange and HF extension of a $1500 MC.  What else could I buy now?

Talking to Kevin will help you find a match--don't use Match.com!!! It's full moon--I can give you a metaphysical prescription to clear your mind and body of these woes...

With psychic power and primal intensity,

Psychicanimal

[TheChairGuy]

Some early, perhaps premature observations about 18 hours run in on it....

1.  VTF - I've never had any cartridge so finicky as the Green is about VTF (Vertical Tracking Force).  1.6 grams is too much - it deadens to presentation (like overdamping, but a bit different).  1.4 grams is, literally, too light a presentation, overall; dynamics are too lightweight.  1.5 about right...but about 1.46 to 1.48 is perfect.

WTF - I've never had a cartridge so picky in any recent memory.

2. VTA - I've got it tail down a bit as I've read that's the best place for it.  Beats me - I haven't tried it any other angle (no adjustable VTA on the JVC - too bad)

3. Noise - It is a bit noisier in the grooves than other cartridges.  Do ellipticals 'plow thru' where line styli and vdH/Geiger shapes leave less a bit less friction on the sidewalls of vinyl?  Could be 

4.  Inner Groove Distortion - Almost disqualifies this cartridge entirely.  The first 60% of each side sounds quite good - deteriorating slowly into something akin to hell the last tune or final 10-20%.  It's quite noticeable - I only hope that I can jiggle some arm geometry or maybe the suspension still needs a bit more breaking it to be fully effective. Hope so, at least.  Otherwise, it's a bit of hell as the side winds down each time. 

1.6 grams VTF wasn't the answer either - it didn't help the end-of-record distortion....it just overdamped everything.

Any of you Grado guys, or former ones, lend some guidance here on these matters - or others?

Henry/ohenry, you out there 

[Rocket]

Hi TCG,

I've been on a search to obtain better musical performance from my vinyl system.  Some 2 years ago i bought a bluenote piccolo turntable which is probably similiar in sound quality to a rega 25 or thereabouts.

I bought a denon dl103 low output cartridge and had numerous problems finding a good quality phonostage to run in my system.  I tried the following components with mixed results:

Musical fidelity xlps
perreaux sxv1
bugle phonostage
class cornet phonostage

Using these phonostages in my system i just couldn't get it to sound that good and in fact my cd system sounded much better.  I recently bought a demo bluenote de medici phonostage and i'm really enjoying it in my system.

TCG, perhaps you need to have a look at your phonostage to bring better sound to your system.

Regards

Rod

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Rocket....

Yeah, phono stages matter.  I really like my Dynaco PAS-4 tube pre with CD...it helps tame the nasties 

I have a very nice Musical Surroundings Phenomena phono amp with battery power supply (HUGELY upgraded with a low inductance Revelation Audio Labs power cord/umbilical) and I DO like the Grado better with it (run into the Dynaco...which, unfortunately, softens it on the way out to the amps).  But, it naturally loses a bit of luster from the additional processing step and on into the Dynaco outputs. Tubes with vinyl, for me, sounds too soft...yet is beneficial for CD to me.

The Grado is unique among Moving Magnets/Iron type cartridges, as it only has 45mH of inductance, rendering it not effected by additional capacitive loads in the pre-amplification chain as all others of this type are.

Maybe, just maybe I run a 'dedicated' phonostage with (Endler, or other) attenuators for vinyl playback...and reserve the Dynaco for CD duties.  Not the worst idea in the world I think 

Funny, all those years of listening to phono on SS equipment years ago and I never had any fatigue.  CD comes along as suddenly you need tubes to bear it 

[BikeWNC]

Some early, perhaps premature observations about 18 hours run in on it....


4.  Inner Groove Distortion - Almost disqualifies this cartridge entirely.  The first 60% of each side sounds quite good - deteriorating slowly into something akin to hell the last tune or final 10-20%.  It's quite noticeable - I only hope that I can jiggle some arm geometry or maybe the suspension still needs a bit more breaking it to be fully effective. Hope so, at least.  Otherwise, it's a bit of hell as the side winds down each time. 


Any of you Grado guys, or former ones, lend some guidance here on these matters - or others?

Henry/ohenry, you out there 

I had the same issue with a Grado gold cartridge on my Technics 1200.  Never could get it to play the last track or two without distortion.

Andy

[Psychicanimal]

  CD comes along as suddenly you need tubes to bear it 

Not in my 100% SS system.

Fact of life: live music is harsh.

[TheChairGuy]

Well, it's playing better each day now...about 25 hours in on it.

I don't at least notice inside groove distortion now....a combination of break-in and dialing in the anti-skate seemed to do the trick.  This is really a fussy cartridge - waaaaaay fussier than it should be for $60.00.  I mean, most folks spending $60.00 for a cartridge won't futz with it to get it right and will assume it's not that capable.  Turns out it's very capable (at least, with the Longhorn attached and coils damped and all geometries right).

Not that it's unusual for this cartridge to have a different setting than the tracking force (which is about 1.47 near as I can tell).  I've never had  cartridge that needed anywhere near 100% of tracking force, usually it's in the 60-70% area. The Green is about at 66.67% now and is spot-on.

What a fussy beetch it is, tho, for $60.00...but worthwhile if you do 

[ohenry]

John,
I've been running the Grado Green on a Sumiko MMT and haven't encountered too many issues except that I stay up too late listening.  I did need to set the VTA to slightly "tail down" to smooth out the highs and I had it tracking at 1.5 grams.  I didn't have a problem with tracking the innermost grooves, so I don't have any guidance regarding that issue. 

I'm currently playing around with a Grado Platinum on that arm and it's behaving similarly to the Green regarding set up.  One thing I noticed last night with the Platinum was that the surface noise was as quiet as I've witnessed; and of course, that female vocal magic the Grados seem to do.  I'll know more when it gets more playing time under its belt.

I'll have to pay more attention to the Grado on my girlfriend's Technics, but I haven't noticed that "last song" tracking problem in the past.   Admittedly, I don't listen very critically when I'm over there and vinyl isn't played as much as CDs.

[TheChairGuy]

Henry,

Cool insights 

Your Green also has the Longhorn mod - it may well have nulled that aspect of it's performance if yo set it up right, too.

I don't notice the inner groove distortion now....I think much had to do with either A. Break-in or B, Dialing in the right anti-skating figure.

Funny, I haven't found the oft mentioned female voice thing to be the Grado's strong suit yet....I', just finding it equally adept at all music inputs.  It doesn't do anything particularly better than any other cartridge of recent memory, it just doesn't do anything terribly badly - which other cartridges I've owned have been neglectful of.

As for the perceived lack of air relative to moving coils, it's true, but I'm not always sure the 'air' I hear in moving coils is real or not.  The moving iron design of Grado does have a bit more soundstaging / imaging compared to moving magnets, but not quite as much as moving coils.  It doesn't give me 'chills' when listening to it - akin to being in a haunted house when a moving coil plays - but it seems more midway a design between typical moving magnets and coils   

As I've found issues with both magnets and coils before, this Grado Green's neutrality in most areas is becoming most welcome. For $60.00 - set up with amazing detail and care - it makes great music (with the Longhorn attached).  Too bad the vast majority of folks will never milk it for what it can do as the $60.00 crowd won't generally do the things necessary to make it sing.   

Ya' know, that Cartridge Man over in the UK, with his Music Maker, may well have cracked the DNA of this cartridge right well.  He likely buys $180.00 Grado Gold's, adds an aluminum line stylus, damps the internals a bit and gets $995 retail for them and everybody sings his praises. 

His newest Music Maker Classic is even slicker - he probably buys $60 Green models, replaces the copper coils with silver wire, adds the line stylus, damps the internals and, oola, gets $1700.00 retail (probably $850.00 wholesale) for it  (they gratuitiously throw in a $150.00 'isolator' that might have $5 in materials to it) 

Nonetheless, he probably cracked the DNA on this cartridge - it needs to track better and the internals need to be damped (to lessen microphonics).  The Longhorn mod and damping trough with a competent tonearm probably accomplishes a considerable % of what the addition of a line stylus achieves at $$$ hundreds less.

[Psychicanimal]

As for the perceived lack of air relative to moving coils, it's true, but I'm not always sure the 'air' I hear in moving coils is real or not. 

"What you pay for in a great phono cartridge is desirable interpretations. The interpretation and presentation of the recording is in the hands of the cartridge and the best ones will interpret recordings with air, space, dynamics and shimmer that result in a completely holographic soundstage with depths in the hundreds of feet. You sit there and wonder how in the hell the recording engineers managed to capture such marvelous presence and depth. They didn't. In fact it's likely that the actual engineers that mixed down the recording wouldn't know what I'm talking about. No, it's the cartridge. A good moving coil cartridge adds these illusions, or puts back a lot of what was squashed out during the recording process. It's a mechanical device governed by the laws of physics that resonates and excites the information into electrical energy."

Excerpt from The potential fidelity of CD's vs. LP's by Steve Deckert.

http://www.decware.com/paper20.htm



Just some food for thought...

[TheChairGuy]

Good insight from Steve Deckert - thanks for pointing me/us in that direction 

[lcrim]

I don't think you can expect to achieve the level of playback quality that Mr. Deckert describes w/o investing in what he describes as " a respectable MC cartridge and appropriate arm and table  WITH THE RIGHT ELECTRONICS ."  The right electronics , of course , being those that he manufactures.  In any event, it would be unrealistic to expect that kind of performance from a $60 cart. 
The current darling of the Asylum is the Denon DL-103 which can be found on Ebay for $148 delivered.  It is a LOMC that has very low compliance, thus requiring a medium to high mass arm.  It also tracks around 2.5 gms but at the price, there is simply nothing that competes w/ it.  You will need lots of gain in the phono section as well.
I run a AT-OC9 ML/ll on my KAB modded Technics 1200 MKII and it is a very nice cart for $279 plus shipping.  I have the Eastern Electric Minimax phono section with it and I highly recommend both pieces.  I did an absurd amount of internet research before making this leap.  Check it out for yourselves.
It has good compliance and I set VTF @ 1.7 gms.  The longevity of my vinyl is a consideration and I just can't get my head around low compliance and high tracking forces but many are seemingly not troubled by this.  The OC-9 tracks as well as any MM I have tried.  Surface noise is rarely an issue with this setup.  A good record cleaning machine is almost a necessity and clean records and a clean stylus are essential.

[Wayner]

I just finished rehabbing my 2nd AR-XA turntable this morning, and I may say it has turned out looking almost brand new, with brand new performance. I have followed the wisdom of Frank Van Alstine, of course, but I use the Chair Guys Slick 50 in the platter well. I have learned a lesson; to toss the Haydon motor from the AR as most that I have bought have lost their power or have one form of aliment or another. So, I have sourced the motor that is used in the VPI Scout. It's a big honker, fairly quite, well made and should last along time.

Now the big dilemma is what cartridge? I was actually thinking of the Grado Green, but with what I'm reading here, I don't know. I suppose I could put another AT440MLa in this one, but I have been accused of being an AT440 pimp by someone at AC already, ha, ha

I put a Shure m97xe in it for now, but what an unamusing cartridge, especially compared to the AT440. Of course, I want the best bang for the buck as that was the goal by the people at AR back in the late 60's, so what is a mother to do?

I have noticed with all of the AR's that the tone arm is a slight bit sluggish in the vertical plane. I can tell when it's time to dial in VTF. Unlike my Empire arm which can zip all over everywhere (up and down, side to side), and maybe that's the problem with that tone arm...it's too loose!

Maybe a Grado Green with a 2" Longhorn?

[TheChairGuy]

Wayner,

I think the Longhorn is a 1.5" section...at least, that's what I remember and have cut my stabilizer to.

I have to put my AT440ML in again and compare now that I have optimized the Grado Green (or, at least think so  ).  I can tell you that the Grado is a lot easier to listen to for hours on end than the AT...but, then again, I have the prior 440ML/OCC model.

If you're happy with the AT, why not use it, tho? 

Post those pics....

And, there's nothin wrong with pimpin' if you have no stake in it's success....I've been called a 'ho by colleagues for pimpin' my chairs in the business world.....but that's what I do and it's clear that is my intention 

[Wayner]

I know the standard for the longhorn is 1.5", but I remember the audio basics saying that longer Longhorns seemed to improve even more, until the lenght got too stupid.

I can listen to the AT440 for hours with the AR and every time I fire it up, it sounds even better! It must be the combination of turntable and cartridge.

Maybe I will buy another AT and Longhorn that one.

Thanks TCG.

[TheChairGuy]

Hey, I just threw on my AT440ML for comparo, and no doubt about it, it's harder to listen to for long periods of time vs. the Grado Green.

But, it is so much more dynamic, faster with great snap, it's almost worth sitting thru 

I was thinking in the last week since changing over to the Grado how less dynamic that vinyl is versus CD...but the AT shored that difference up right quick. It's got the snap of CD's...alas, it also has a few of the same nasties involved in playback.

You got a winner, Wayner, if they tamed the nasties a bit in the updated At440MLa version. Mine has this unflappable constitution about it that says 'I'm a $300.00+ cartridge'...if the 440MLa has this AND is more forgiving on the ears - why not use it?