AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Spatial Audio on 6 Jul 2019, 03:00 pm

Title: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 6 Jul 2019, 03:00 pm
I am excited to tell you about our new M series design platform that I think will set the standard for performance in the under $5K segment. Almost 5 years since the M4 and M3 were introduced in 2015, two completely new models will be rolled out later this month - M5 Sapphire & M3 Sapphire. Here is pic of the M5:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196276)

Both models feature a cool new wideband, large dome unit which operates from 500Hz to 40kHz that is crossover-less. You'll have to hear it to believe the level of information and soundstage projection. Its also extremely smooth with no detectable listener fatigue. Bass duties are handled by my new 15 inch cast frame woofer design - the ST15-8. This dipole woofer design performs in a powerful and linear fashion that easily surpasses box bass. It rolls off smoothly and uses one toroidal inductor in series. The Danish Janzten inductor is expensive but features ultra low 0.10 Ohm DCR, which provides tighter bass than other coil types.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196277)


The M3 Sapphire uses the exact same concept, but with a second 15 inch woofer for additional deep bass power. So the M3 Sapphire has more deep bass power than the M5, but otherwise sounds the same. Both models are passive, dipolar designs.

Factory Pricing:

M5 Sapphire - $3450 pr. including shipping
M3 Sapphire - $4950 pr. including shipping


M5 Prelim Specs:

Type: 2-way dynamic dipolar

Drivers: 1 x pure Sapphire Dome -long throw suspension

            1 x Spatial ST15-8 - 15 inch cast frame dipole

Frequency Range: 29Hz-40kHz in room

Impedance: 8 Ohms nominal (7 Ohms minima)

Sensitivity: 92 dB

Finish: Choice of real wood veneers

Size: 42T x 18W x 3D inches

Weight: 65 lbs net, 75 lbs Shipping

I will post M3 Sapphire info within the week. Let me know if you have any questions. Spatial customers can contact me regarding M3 and M4 trade-in pricing.

Happy Listening,

Clayton Shaw
www.spatialaudio.us
Tel. (435) 640-1294

 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sumoking on 6 Jul 2019, 04:04 pm
Exciting news Clayton!
I really appreciate the price points of the New M Series!
Sounds like you upped the game of the M series in terms of sound quality, but somehow kept the costs relatively the same.

I haven’t listed to anything in the price class of my M3 S Turbos that sound near as good. So excited to hear these new speakers!

The specs on this new series seem to address the lower frequency range the last model didn’t have.
I believe the old M3 went to 33Hz. Can you hear/feel the difference from 33 down to 29Hz?

To offer a speaker that has this freq range at $3-4k is really impressive!!! It’s not always easy to accommodate the room for an additional sub and it seems for those who appreciate the bottom end this new series might do the trick.

Nice that you offer a trade up program!

How would you say this series images compared to the original series? I notice it’s not
a compression driver? Do they take as long to break in?

Cheers!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 6 Jul 2019, 04:44 pm
Exciting news Clayton!
I really appreciate the price points of the New M Series!
Sounds like you upped the game of the M series in terms of sound quality, but somehow kept the costs relatively the same.

I haven’t listed to anything in the price class of my M3 S Turbos that sound near as good. So excited to hear these new speakers!

The specs on this new series seem to address the lower frequency range the last model didn’t have.
I believe the old M3 went to 33Hz. Can you hear/feel the difference from 33 down to 29Hz?

To offer a speaker that does it all at $3-4k is really impressive!!! It’s not always easy to accommodate the room for an additional sub and it seems for those who appreciate
the bottom end this speaker might do the trick.

Nice that you offer a trade up program!

How would you say this series images compared to the original series? I notice it’s not
a compression driver? Do they take as long to break in?
Congrats!
Cheers!

Thanks Sumoking,

Its true that the new approach offers better bass power and articulation than before - which is due to both the new woofer design and the low resistance toroidal inductor, so I am very happy with the results. While the imaging of the previous models was considered by most to be excellent, the Sapphire series is even better plus the size of the soundstage is huge in every dimension, projecting through the walls. That's the first thing you notice. Break-in will be shorter than the previous models.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sumoking on 6 Jul 2019, 06:42 pm
Appreciate your feedback!
Really looking forward to hear more about the M-3 Sapphires in the coming days!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: davek on 6 Jul 2019, 09:01 pm
Wow, a full range dome, that’s amazing. How does it sound compared to the AMT in the X5? Interested in the comparison between the X5 and M5, although the X5 is a bit narrower (better for my room), an all passive design sure is simpler. Looks like you need to set up a listening room in CO for prospective owners.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tom419 on 6 Jul 2019, 09:16 pm
Clayton,    Will these be available in non-wood finishes?   
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 7 Jul 2019, 01:27 am
Clayton,    Will these be available in non-wood finishes?

We can do both black and white in a painted surface in addition to wood.


Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Ragnar71 on 7 Jul 2019, 02:22 am
Will these be Bi-Ampable? Since there is no crossover, wouldn’t bi amping actually be advantageous or am I Totally misinformed on how bi-amping works? I’d say there is a very good chance I just asked a very stupid question.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: dB Cooper on 7 Jul 2019, 02:43 am
Will these be Bi-Ampable? Since there is no crossover, wouldn’t bi amping actually be advantageous or am I Totally misinformed on how bi-amping works? I’d say there is a very good chance I just asked a very stupid question.


I was wondering the exact same thing. How do you keep the lows out of the tweeter?

I didn't stay long at last year's Capital Audiofest but it didn't take long to detect that there was real music coming from the Spatial room, much better than the million-dollar 'rich idiot' system on the first level.If this sounds as good as it looks this should be a winner.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Wind Chaser on 7 Jul 2019, 07:06 am
How do you keep the lows out of the tweeter?

With a capacitor...
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: dB Cooper on 7 Jul 2019, 08:45 am

Both models feature a cool new wideband, large dome unit which operates from 500Hz to 40kHz that is direct wired to the input terminals - no crossover or any components in its signal path![/i][/b]

So it there is n"no crossover or any components in its signal path", where is the capacitor?!?  :scratch:
Also puzzled as to how a passive radiator would work on an OB speaker....  :scratch:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 7 Jul 2019, 07:11 pm
Here is a nice comment from Ron Brenay at New Record Day about Vinnie Rossi and Spatial in discussion about the most intriguing products he has ever reviewed:

https://youtu.be/IbNZFFbSZbE

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sumoking on 7 Jul 2019, 08:34 pm
I had the same reaction as Ron.
It really moved me to go from a good transmission line box speaker to the M3S Turbos! It was so different and I immediately resonated with the character of the speaker.  I finally achieved the lifelike dynamics, transparency, timbre and soundstage that I was striving for in my listening room. 

Really looking forward to hearing more about the new M-3 Sapphires. This new series sounds like a nice jump up in sound quality and with the X 3/5 speakers I’ve got some great options to choose from!
Cheers.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY on 8 Jul 2019, 07:59 am
May I ask, was there an issue with the prototype from the Scottsdale Speakerfest? I can joy ask as that the first time I’ve gotten to experience OB speakers. Spatial is the top of my list and most likely I’ll be buying blind so even if there were issues it at least gives me a frame of reference.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: displayname on 8 Jul 2019, 10:41 am
These look awesome, and obviously have a great price point. I'd love to hear some if they ever make their way to Dallas.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: RonN5 on 8 Jul 2019, 03:12 pm
Clayton,

Presumably, the new M3 and M5 have wider dispersion than the current M3/M4 models which are labelled as controlled directivity?  I know there are situations where controlled directivity is preferred...but I've usually found that wider dispersion results in more ambiance and a larger soundstage.

Thanks.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Vedder323 on 8 Jul 2019, 05:06 pm
These look impressive and I cant wait to get my grubby hands on a pair. Thanks for the link to the video, Clayton. Appreciate you!

-Ron
NRD.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 8 Jul 2019, 06:48 pm
Ron - super great video, hadn't seen that one yet.  Your work is so informative and helpful.  I REALLY liked Tech Talk Tuesday number 1 and 2, hearing Danny Richie explain some things was revelatory!

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 8 Jul 2019, 06:54 pm
Clayton the M3 and M5 Sapphires look great and I'm sure are going to sound fantastic.  Having no caps or anything in the signal path to the wide range domes has got to be a good thing.  Quoting Danny Richie Tech Talk Tuesday episode 1 video: "A lot of speakers truncate the spatial cues in the upper frequency ranges, often because of low quality or cheap capacitors.  Capacitors have a tendency to hold the signal and then release it causing a smeared effect, which truncates the spatial cues." 

I suspect this problem is either substantially or completely eliminated with high quality caps and careful testing and selection as explained in that video.


Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: kheidenr on 8 Jul 2019, 09:16 pm
Clayton,

How will the M5 and M3 perform with low wattage tube amps - say 4 watts?  Is the impedance curve pretty flat for the dome?  Would you recommend bi-amping if we used a low wattage tube amp with the sapphire dome driver?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 9 Jul 2019, 01:41 pm
Clayton,

How will the M5 and M3 perform with low wattage tube amps - say 4 watts?  Is the impedance curve pretty flat for the dome?  Would you recommend bi-amping if we used a low wattage tube amp with the sapphire dome driver?

Low wattage tube amps will work nicely with the M5 Sapphire because the impedance curve is smooth and 8 Ohms nominal. If you bi-amp, they will work even better. The mid/treble driver stays between 8 and 10 Ohms.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: ric on 9 Jul 2019, 01:46 pm
Agreed with Clifford Brown. Since I DID upgrade (and post) the Xover's in the M3 Turbo S, I can attest to the improvements made when the crossover becomes more transparent. I would imagine that with no crossover the sound would be similar (better) that what I am hearing now, which is much more attack/decay, much more weight of notes, an open airiness to the sound that goes much more verticle than before. This openness adds to the live feel of the performance, and at the same time sounding more natural.
I imagine these new speakers will really set a new bar for what is possible at this price point.
Oh, and as good as the upgraded Turbos sound, the sound improved with the addition of DIY High Fidelity products using magnet technology. I guess sound improvement never ends.
Good luck with the newest!....
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: yakbob on 9 Jul 2019, 03:01 pm
Oh boy, the X series speakers had me excited, but would be a stretch for me from a price perspective. The M3 sapphire sounds like a good compromise if I can't swing for the X5.
Wood finish would make it a slam dunk for my wife, who currently tolerates my red M3Ts. Hoping that Walnut veneer is one of the options.

I really look forward to more details and photos on the Sapphire series.  :thumb:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: aniwolfe on 9 Jul 2019, 08:00 pm
So the M3's will be released next year and the M5's in August? The M3 slider says new for 2020  :(

Also, is the dome made out of what material?...don't say Sapphire lol
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: RonN5 on 9 Jul 2019, 09:19 pm
So the M3's will be released next year and the M5's in August? The M3 slider says new for 2020  :(

Also, is the dome made out of what material?...don't say Sapphire lol

Hello aniwolfe...haven't seen you posting much on Audiogon these days.

Aren't speaker years like car model years....they always come out 4-6 months early?

Here is a definition of Sapphire from Accuton that may apply:

Ceramic

"Alpha corundum or sapphire is a very good choice for the production of loudspeakers. Our invention enables a light and at the same time stiff membrane which is also well damped. Our unique ceramic loudspeakers meet all requirements"

And who knows...maybe the unit itself is an OEM version of this:

https://accuton.com/en-home/produkte/lautsprecher/keramik/Keramik-C51-6-286CELL

I really like the fact that Clayton seems to push the boundaries on the drivers he employs...and I'm pretty sure the new Ms are going to sound very good.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 9 Jul 2019, 09:23 pm
So the M3's will be released next year and the M5's in August? The M3 slider says new for 2020  :(

Also, is the dome made out of what material?...don't say Sapphire lol

The M3 Sapphire is set for 2020 model year, but it will ship next month along with the M5.

Yes - Sapphire :-) synthetic Sapphire Ceramic. Super stiff - super light. It doesn't seem to have any self-sound or added character overlaid onto the sound. I love it.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: aniwolfe on 9 Jul 2019, 09:26 pm
Thanks Ron and Clayton!

Synthetic Diamond Next?  :lol:

Anycase I am very excited to hear this new gen M series!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: RonN5 on 9 Jul 2019, 09:56 pm
Clayton... what will the dimension and weight be for the M3?

Also... can you say a few words about the difference between the sapphire driver sound and the AMT sound?

Thanks
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 9 Jul 2019, 11:22 pm
Clayton... what will the dimension and weight be for the M3?

Also... can you say a few words about the difference between the sapphire driver sound and the AMT sound?

Thanks

M3 Sapphire Dimensions: 48T x 18W x 3D
Net Weight Each: 76 lbs
Price: $4200 pr.

The two drivers actually sound quite similar in the sense that they are both clean, neutral and smooth sounding, almost without character. The AMT is waveguide loaded, so it has a narrower and more controlled pattern. In large rooms and reflective rooms, this AMT is a better choice. They both work well in normal sized rooms that are not too live. They both produce a beautiful stereo field.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 9 Jul 2019, 11:35 pm
First public image of the M3 Sapphire with Direct Drive Sapphire Dome and Dual 15 inch Dipole woofers.



(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196680)






Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sumoking on 10 Jul 2019, 12:08 am
Sweet! The M3 Sapphires look awesome!
Great work!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: underdog64 on 10 Jul 2019, 12:59 am
Clayton-What is the lowest bass response (frequency and degree) of the M3 Sapphires?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: davek on 10 Jul 2019, 01:47 am
Hi Clayton, the new M3,5 look great, another question...would 12" drivers on an M3 variant be possible (like a passive X5) and, if so, lose much bass extension and impact? In my setup that would get the tweeter more ear level cause I sit fairly close in my smallish room. X5 or M3, such decisions..Great lineup!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 10 Jul 2019, 02:03 am
Clayton-What is the lowest bass response (frequency and degree) of the M3 Sapphires?

Thanks for your overwhelmingly positive response to the new M models. Just wait till you hear them my friends!

The M3 Sapphire is solid to 30Hz with no apologies. Crisp and impactful.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 10 Jul 2019, 02:08 am
Hi Clayton, the new M3,5 look great, another question...would 12" drivers on an M3 variant be possible (like a passive X5) and, if so, lose much bass extension and impact? In my setup that would get the tweeter more ear level cause I sit fairly close in my smallish room. X5 or M3, such decisions..Great lineup!

Either sensitivity or deep bass cutoff would be compromised. The X5 gets around this with a powered 12" sub driver and DSP control.  The M3 Sapphire as it stands works perfectly for a passive design.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 10 Jul 2019, 02:12 am
Clayton,

If you decide to go to RMAF would be great to hear a pair of M5 or M3.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: bobh123 on 10 Jul 2019, 11:26 pm
Hi Clayton:  Very excited about the new M and X series.  Will you be showing these at CAS in Oakland later in July?  I don't see Spatial on the current exhibitors list.  Bob
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: harley.guy07 on 11 Jul 2019, 02:30 am
Very nice looking speakers. I am a very happy M3 Turbo s lover with no plans to change as of now but these look like they would be sweet. Will there be any trade in deals for current M series owners. I just bought a new DAC pre so my wife is taking me out of the market for a while but you never know what the future can bring.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: aniwolfe on 11 Jul 2019, 03:41 am
Will there be any trade in deals for current M series owners.

Clayton mentioned that in his opening post

"Spatial customers can contact me regarding M3 and M4 trade-in pricing."
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: harley.guy07 on 11 Jul 2019, 04:30 am
Clayton mentioned that in his opening post

"Spatial customers can contact me regarding M3 and M4 trade-in pricing."

Sorry must have missed that looking at the pictures and drooling!!!! :lol:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Vinnie R. on 11 Jul 2019, 04:41 am
Congratulations, Clayton - the new M and X Series designs look amazing!  I love to see how they have
evolved over the last few years and how you keep pushing forward with innovative designs (and now your own OB woofers!).

Wishing you much continued success in getting them into production, and beyond.

I can't wait to hear them!  :beer:

Vinnie
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: brj on 11 Jul 2019, 03:10 pm
Looks like some nice updates, Clayton!  Perhaps we'll get to see them and their new X cousins at RMAF?

One question - just how rugged is the dome tweeter?  Domes aren't typically as fragile as ribbon tweeters, I realize, but I'm still a bit surprised that there isn't a cap in place to protect the dome against DC on the line, etc..  You never know what those crazy users are going to do once you release your design into the wild!  :lol:

(Stepping up to the Jupiter cap that I currently use on the compression driver tweeters of my active speakers was not inexpensive, and it's physically large to boot, so I certainly understand the appeal of avoiding the use of such a cap if you can.  But given that even with the caps, my previous - highly reputable - amps still caused a bit of a pop on turn-on out of the tweeters, I'd be quite cautious about not having the protection.)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 11 Jul 2019, 03:41 pm
Congratulations, Clayton - the new M and X Series designs look amazing!  I love to see how they have
evolved over the last few years and how you keep pushing forward with innovative designs (and now your own OB woofers!).

Wishing you much continued success in getting them into production, and beyond.

I can't wait to hear them!  :beer:

Vinnie

I see you are exhibiting at RMAF.  Will make a point to drop by and see you.  Hope you are showing a pair of Clayton's speakers for selfish reasons as I want to hear one of these new ones on excellent gear.  Either way look forward to hearing your gear.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: yakbob on 12 Jul 2019, 10:53 am
Clayton, I had called you earlier in the week with a bunch of questions on the new M3 Sapphire. I appreciate the time and detail you went into in answering them. I had a couple more questions that I thought I'd post here so everyone can benefit from your knowledge.

Please keep in mind, I know zilch about speaker design.😁

The placement of the tweeter in the current M3 (which I absolutely love), seems like it would provide a sort of time alignment (set back behind the top woofer). Maybe this is less important in open baffle designs, but does the face mounted mid-tweeter present a different presentation due to its location on the face?

BRJ raises a good question on the protection of the mid-tweeter. I currently use a 12v trigger to turn on my amp when my pre is turned on, unfortunately there is no delay in trigger action so I do get a turn-on "pop". Would this be a problem with the ceramic/sapphire dome?

When we spoke, you mentioned that the new design should require less toe in. I currently run my m3s with quite a bit so the drivers are aimed at my head, probably due to the directivity of the design. This creates a nice albeit small sweet spot. I would think the new design to have a wider sweet spot, since it's not as the upper/Mid is not a directed design?

Lastly (Probably a stupid question) would you be able to describe the overall sonic differences between the M3 and new Sapphire M3? I find the current model to provide an up close and intimate sound with just hint of warmth that isn't fatiguing. Does the ceramic driver impart a sound that is descibable?

Thanks for any knowledge you can share.


Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 12 Jul 2019, 05:52 pm
Looks like some nice updates, Clayton!  Perhaps we'll get to see them and their new X cousins at RMAF?

One question - just how rugged is the dome tweeter?  Domes aren't typically as fragile as ribbon tweeters, I realize, but I'm still a bit surprised that there isn't a cap in place to protect the dome against DC on the line, etc..  You never know what those crazy users are going to do once you release your design into the wild!  :lol:

(Stepping up to the Jupiter cap that I currently use on the compression driver tweeters of my active speakers was not inexpensive, and it's physically large to boot, so I certainly understand the appeal of avoiding the use of such a cap if you can.  But given that even with the caps, my previous - highly reputable - amps still caused a bit of a pop on turn-on out of the tweeters, I'd be quite cautious about not having the protection.)

The Sapphire dome driver is robust because of the design which uses a large dome (large voice coil), large surround and massive heat sinks on the rear. We have not had any failures or even distress during testing and listening sessions, so I don't have any concerns. The speaker is designed for music payback as opposed to home theater applications, where high SPLs and demanding program material might preclude it from being the best choice.

Clayton

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Kaakatus on 14 Jul 2019, 10:56 am
Hi Clayton!

The new M3 looks really cool. I wonder if the European partner will have it in it's selection?

One thing came into my mind when looking the specs. How is the directivity between 15" element and the small dome? I assume that at 500hz the 15" woofer's directivity is quite high but dome without waveguide is spreading sound more on those frequencies?

br,
Juha Eskola, happy owner of M3 TM
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 17 Jul 2019, 05:01 pm
I am having difficulty understanding how a passive driver works in an OB application.  :scratch:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 17 Jul 2019, 05:11 pm
I am having difficulty understanding how a passive driver works in an OB application.  :scratch:

I think you are confusing a passively driven (not powered) woofer with a passive radiator used in some box designs. We are talking about non-powered woofers such as the M3/M5 models. Some of our models have built-in amplifiers for the bass range, such as the X3/X5.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 17 Jul 2019, 05:18 pm
I think you are confusing a passively driven (not powered) woofer with a passive radiator used in some box designs. We are talking about non-powered woofers such as the M3/M5 models. Some of our models have built-in amplifiers for the bass range, such as the X3/X5.

Clayton

Thanks Clayton but I am still confused.  I should have been more clear. I thought one of the woofers in the M3 Sapphire was not connected to an amplifier. I am not sure where I got that idea.

I understand passive (powered by an external amplifier) vs active (amplification is built into the speaker system).
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: kheidenr on 17 Jul 2019, 05:22 pm
M3 is a passively (externally) powered speaker.  Both of the M3 woofers are connected to the external amplifer.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 17 Jul 2019, 05:27 pm
M3 is a passively (externally) powered speaker.  Both of the M3 woofers are connected to the external amplifer.

Thanks, I do not know how I ran off the rails since the concept never made sense to me. My apologies for the confusion. This from Post #11 from Clayton (emphasis added).

"There is one inductor in series with the woofer on the M5. The M3 Sapphire has one inductor for each woofer. The lower woofer of the M3 is just that, its not a passive radiator. "
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Birdbrain on 17 Jul 2019, 07:26 pm
Are the M3 Triode Masters a thing of the past? That would be a shame.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: musicdre on 18 Jul 2019, 05:33 pm
Are the M3 Triode Masters a thing of the past? That would be a shame.

indeed it would.  the triode master is the speaker i am saving up for    :o
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY on 22 Jul 2019, 07:25 pm
Looks like the M3 Sapphire only comes in wood veneers. Any chance a white option may be offered or available as an option?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tom419 on 23 Jul 2019, 02:22 am
 MONKEY  On page one Clayton replied to my same question. They also come in white add black which is good!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY on 23 Jul 2019, 05:31 am
MONKEY  On page one Clayton replied to my same question. They also come in white add black which is good!

Saw that but website tells a different story.

http://www.spatialaudio.us/store/m3-sapphire
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sumoking on 23 Jul 2019, 05:44 am
It’s possible it could be a special order in white or black.
I’m sure Clayton will respond as to what’s possible.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: md92468 on 27 Jul 2019, 11:31 pm
Hey Clayton - I hope you're well. Love the direction you've taken with the M5 Sapphire. Any plans to offer a 12" baby brother for the apartment dwellers among us?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jachinboazicus on 29 Jul 2019, 10:16 pm
I'm only 6 months into my M3TM's, but the Sapphire tweak with the higher tweeter is really interesting/tempting. I had my M3 Turbo S's for a couple years before upgrading to the TM, and the improvement was huge.

Clayton, I'd love to hear your comparison of the M3TM vs the M3 Sapphire. What improvements/differences can we expect?

I'll definitely be in touch soon about the potential upgrade.

Bummed that you couldn't make it out to the Built to Spill show last weekend.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 4 Aug 2019, 07:01 pm
Clayton,

You say “.... a cool new wideband, large dome unit which operates from 500Hz to 40kHz that is direct wired to the input terminals - no crossover or any components in its signal path!”

Is the tweeter capacitive?  Is there a cap built in?  If neither, how does it handle the bass frequencies without damage?

-Tommy O
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 14 Aug 2019, 12:06 am
Reading the information posted on the new speakers it appears that the 15 inch woofer on the M5 is the same as the 15 inch woofer as the X3.  At least they have the same name "Spatial ST15-8".  Are they basically the same woofer other then one passive and one setup active?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 14 Aug 2019, 01:40 am
Clayton,

You say “.... a cool new wideband, large dome unit which operates from 500Hz to 40kHz that is direct wired to the input terminals - no crossover or any components in its signal path!”

Is the tweeter capacitive?  Is there a cap built in?  If neither, how does it handle the bass frequencies without damage?

-Tommy O

Its like a normal dome tweeter with substantially beefed up features like a long throw suspension, very large heat sink and Ferrofluid thermal coupling. We have done in-depth reliability testing to make sure the device is of a sufficiently robust design to run without a high pass network. For good measure, on Sunday, I ran the M5 at a 90dB 1M average level with a drum/cymbal track with heavy dynamics. I ran the test for about 3 hours straight without distress. The heatsink temperature was close to ambient - so it definitely works well.

Snowpuppy- Yes, the 15 inch ST15 woofer was developed during the X3 development program. Same woofer.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 14 Aug 2019, 02:53 am
Very interesting.  Glad my M3 Sapphires are on order.  Really looking forward to hearing them.

Was hoping you may provide some biamping instructions.  While I would just use them with my integrated amp for a while I do happen to have two idle NAD 218THX amplifiers than can be switched or bridged into mono increasing their rating from 225 wpc to 780 watts continuous average output.  The disadvantage is when bridged they see half the impedance of the speaker.  For example a 4 ohm speaker is seen as 2 ohms and therefore not so good for speakers that dip below 4 ohms.  May work well with  M3 Sapphire since 8 ohms and the amps will have no trouble with the 4 ohms they would see.  Wondering if biamping the M3 Sapphire this way would be a good thing or if I should just use one of the NAD 218 in stereo or perhaps no biamping at all.

My integrated amp does sound better than the NAD 218 overall especially the highs and midrange.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: JackD on 14 Aug 2019, 03:10 am
What would you hope to gain by bi-amping a 90+ db speaker with two inferior amps as opposed to just using your admittedly better integrated?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 14 Aug 2019, 11:12 am
What would you hope to gain by bi-amping a 90+ db speaker with two inferior amps as opposed to just using your admittedly better integrated?

Some of what the X3 has in the bass minus the DSP.  As Clayton confirm the 15" woofer driver is the same.  Also without the integrated amp driving bass it will have more power for the mid/treble.  As a result the integrated amp which has a 4 watt class A bias will spend much more time playing in class A.  So in summary more refined sound quality in mid/treble and much more control and power in the bass.  218 is great with bass.

Also just about any speaker can benefit from more power if they are quality watts.  Especially on speakers that are 95 db or less.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 14 Aug 2019, 12:12 pm
If refined sound is what you are after, I would look somewhere other than that NAD amp on the tweeter. Personally, I would use one NAD amp on the bass driver and a good moderately powered tube amp  up top.

Shakey

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 14 Aug 2019, 01:00 pm
If refined sound is what you are after, I would look somewhere other than that NAD amp on the tweeter. Personally, I would use one NAD amp on the bass driver and a good moderately powered tube amp  up top.

Shakey

Exactly.  Check my posts you will see that the plan is to use the NAD 218 for the bass.  This would just be an experiment.  My current integrated amp, Ragnarok, sounds very good in mid/treble which is why my NAD separates are idle.  But using the NAD for bass with speakers that are biampable may be worth trying.  And I am thinking just like you are thinking “I would use one NAD amp on the bass driver and a good moderately powered tube amp  up top”.  Perhaps Raven or LTA as an upgrade down the road.  That is one thing I find appealing about the X3 is amp flexibility but can’t afford those right now so I ordered the new M3.  That said I have a strong feeling that I will be very pleased with the M3 Sapphire biamped or not.  And if I had to guess now, the Ragnarok integrated by itself may sound better than biamping.  But would be interesting to try biamping anyway since powerful NADs are sitting there idle.

P.S.  My Dad upgraded his NAD 218 to a Musical Fidelity Nuvista KW500 amp several years ago.  He then gave me his NAD 218.  Since I already had a NAD 218 I ended up with two.  I got a Schiit Ragnarok that I was strictly going to use as a headphone amp but tried it with my speakers to satisfy curiosity.  I really did not expect the Schiit Ragnarok to out perform my NAD separates but it certainly does.  The one exception would be bass power of the NAD.  Ended up being a blessing in disguise because now I use my best sources for both speakers and my high end headphones through the Ragnarok.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 14 Aug 2019, 01:13 pm
My first "real" amp was a NAD 216 being driven by a McCormack Line Drive. This was about 25 years ago. Having only used receivers before, this sounded pretty good. But upgrading to something a little better made an obvious difference.

Good luck with your M3 Sapphires.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tom419 on 14 Aug 2019, 01:20 pm
Clayton,  What would be the ideal room dimensions for a dedicated listening room the new M-series?  Thank you
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 14 Aug 2019, 02:00 pm
Clayton,  What would be the ideal room dimensions for a dedicated listening room the new M-series?  Thank you

A 13 or 14 x 20 is a good size. That gives you good space around the speaker for a bigger soundstage.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 14 Aug 2019, 03:13 pm
If refined sound is what you are after, I would look somewhere other than that NAD amp on the tweeter. Personally, I would use one NAD amp on the bass driver and a good moderately powered tube amp  up top.

Shakey
Some amp comparisons, including NAD and Parasound:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=161765.0
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 14 Aug 2019, 03:23 pm
Its like a normal dome tweeter with substantially beefed up features like a long throw suspension, very large heat sink and Ferrofluid thermal coupling. We have done in-depth reliability testing to make sure the device is of a sufficiently robust design to run without a high pass network. For good measure, on Sunday, I ran the M5 at a 90dB 1M average level with a drum/cymbal track with heavy dynamics. I ran the test for about 3 hours straight without distress. The heatsink temperature was close to ambient - so it definitely works well.

Snowpuppy- Yes, the 15 inch ST15 woofer was developed during the X3 development program. Same woofer.

Clayton
Very interesting.  Thanks for your answer, Clayton.  It’s amazing stuff, and I’d like to hear the M5 ASAP!

-Tommy O
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 29 Aug 2019, 07:21 pm
Will a 12'x12' or 12'11"x13' room with acoustic treatment work with the M3 Sapphire? :D
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 29 Aug 2019, 10:35 pm
Will a 12'x12' or 12'11"x13' room with acoustic treatment work with the M3 Sapphire? :D

Thanks Stargate - Yes, the M3 Sapphire will work in a 12x12 or 12x13 because Open Baffle bass doesn't get boomy sounding even with 2 x 15 inch woofers per side. The M5 Sapphire may also do the job.

Clayton
www.spatialaudio.us
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 30 Aug 2019, 01:20 am
Thanks Stargate - Yes, the M3 Sapphire will work in a 12x12 or 12x13 because Open Baffle bass doesn't get boomy sounding even with 2 x 15 inch woofers per side. The M5 Sapphire may also do the job.

Clayton
www.spatialaudio.us
If the M3 Sapphire works with my room size, then surely there wouldn’t be any problems with too much bass (provided I use adequate room treatment)? I don’t listen to LOUD volume levels because I don’t want to overload my ears. The only question is which speaker will perform the best in a 12’11”x13’ room. Maybe this is subjective? I’m afraid of not having enough bass for certain notes with the M5. Hmm ... :scratch:

I may pull the trigger on some M3s to be on the safe side. I’ve had 32Hz rated box speakers before and they didn’t give me enough bass.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 30 Aug 2019, 01:53 am
If the M3 Sapphire works with my room size, then surely there wouldn’t be any problems with too much bass (provided I use adequate room treatment)? I don’t listen to LOUD volume levels because I don’t want to overload my ears. The only question is which speaker will perform the best in a 12’x11”x13’ room. Maybe this is subjective? I’m afraid of not having enough bass for certain notes with the M5. Hmm ... :scratch:

I may pull the trigger on some M3s to be on the safe side. I’ve had 32Hz rated box speakers before and they didn’t give me enough bass.

The simple answer: if you can swing the M3's $4200 price - I would go that route. You will definitely be covered on bass and not require a sub.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 30 Aug 2019, 02:21 am
The simple answer: if you can swing the M3's $4200 price - I would go that route. You will definitely be covered on bass and not require a sub.

Clayton
I’ll think about it, thanks!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 31 Aug 2019, 02:57 am
Very interesting.  Glad my M3 Sapphires are on order.  Really looking forward to hearing them.

Was hoping you may provide some biamping instructions.  While I would just use them with my integrated amp for a while I do happen to have two idle NAD 218THX amplifiers than can be switched or bridged into mono increasing their rating from 225 wpc to 780 watts continuous average output.  The disadvantage is when bridged they see half the impedance of the speaker.  For example a 4 ohm speaker is seen as 2 ohms and therefore not so good for speakers that dip below 4 ohms.  May work well with  M3 Sapphire since 8 ohms and the amps will have no trouble with the 4 ohms they would see.  Wondering if biamping the M3 Sapphire this way would be a good thing or if I should just use one of the NAD 218 in stereo or perhaps no biamping at all.

My integrated amp does sound better than the NAD 218 overall especially the highs and midrange.
Which version did you get? I’m still trying to decide :P. Do these come preassembled or do you assemble them yourself?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 31 Aug 2019, 05:44 pm
Which version did you get? I’m still trying to decide :P. Do these come preassembled or do you assemble them yourself?

Have not gotten mine yet so not sure how much assembly there is.  If it is like my current M3TM then you just need to install the feet which is easy.  I ordered the Sapele finish.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 31 Aug 2019, 06:51 pm
Have not gotten mine yet so not sure how much assembly there is.  If it is like my current M3TM then you just need to install the feet which is easy.  I ordered the Sapele finish.
Yeah, that’s the finish I plan to get, but I’m also looking at Zebra and Black. Be sure to take lots of pictures for us! :wink:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 31 Aug 2019, 09:14 pm
The simple answer: if you can swing the M3's $4200 price - I would go that route. You will definitely be covered on bass and not require a sub.

Clayton
Change of plans.. for my 13x13 room, I moved my friends M3 Master into my house to see how a 32 Hz open baffle speaker would fare. Low and behold, the bass was MORE than enough! 8). I guess 32 Hz - 40Hz box speakers I’m used to hearing don’t produce as low, accurate, authoritative, punchy bass as I thought they would (when compared to the M3 Master). We both agreed that no sub was required! Based on my earlier comment, I could see why you would want me to play it safe, but now that I’ve compared the two, we can put that worry to rest(?) The M3 Sapphire won’t be necessary. I’m not even sure I’d hear the difference because of how low the bass already is at my volume levels, so it might be overkill. But I will say - I’m drawn to the elegance and simplicity of the M5.

Great speakers, great price, great design!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 31 Aug 2019, 09:41 pm
Change of plans.. for my 13x13 room, I moved my friends M3 Master into my house to see how a 32 Hz open baffle speaker would fare. Low and behold, the bass was MORE than enough! 8). I guess 32 Hz - 40Hz box speakers I’m used to hearing don’t produce as low, accurate, authoritative, punchy bass as I thought they would (when compared to the M3 Master). We both agreed that no sub was required! Based on my earlier comment, I could see why you would want me to play it safe, but now that I’ve compared the two, we can put that worry to rest. The M3 Sapphire won’t be necessary. I’m not even sure I’d hear the difference because of how low the bass already is at my volume levels, so it would be overkill. But I will say - I’m drawn to the elegance and simplicity of the M5.

Great speakers, great price, great design!

For that size room I think I would probably be fine with the M5.  That said the M3 would still work in that room IMO and will still deliver more bass authority.  And if you ever move them to a large room the M3 will still be well suited.  But if they will stay in that room size then I bet the M5 would still be great.  You can put that extra money to other upgrades or buy a bunch of nice LPs.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 31 Aug 2019, 11:57 pm
For that size room I think I would probably be fine with the M5.  That said the M3 would still work in that room IMO and will still deliver more bass authority.  And if you ever move them to a large room the M3 will still be well suited.  But if they will stay in that room size then I bet the M5 would still be great.  You can put that extra money to other upgrades or buy a bunch of nice LPs.
With much respect to Clayton’s open baffle design, I don’t believe 30Hz(?) (M3 Sapphire) versus 32Hz (M3 Turbo/Master) is going to be a noticeable difference at normal listening levels in a 13x13 room unless the volume was cranked, but even then it would be far too overwhelming for my ears to even tell the difference, whereas if you had them in a MUCH larger space you could probably squeeze that extra 1-2Hz (depending on the way your room is set-up). Sure, the M3 Sapphire will work in a 13x13 room, but after hearing the M3 Master, anything more is probably overkill.

All in all, you can’t wrong with either, but why spend $1,200 on something you can’t get any use out of in a smaller room? Maybe I'm wrong.

I want to see those pictures when you guys get them! I’ll be shortly behind!  :P
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 1 Sep 2019, 12:10 am
I would be more concerned about the tonal balance especially in a smaller room.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 1 Sep 2019, 01:13 am
Oops, I just noticed that the M5 Sapphire is rated at 29Hz, not 32Hz :duh:. That will definitely be plenty! Does anyone know what the M3 Sapphire is rated at?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 1 Sep 2019, 04:29 pm
Revised M5 specifications from the Spatial website:

M5 Specifications:
Type: 2-way dynamic dipolar
Drivers: 1 x Spatial M100 Uniwave® - Direct Drive Transducer
            1 x Spatial ST15 - 15 inch cast frame dipole woofer
Frequency Range: 32Hz-40kHz (typical in-room bandwidth)
Impedance: 8 Ohms nominal
Sensitivity: 92 dB
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 1 Sep 2019, 04:55 pm
Oops, I just noticed that the M5 Sapphire is rated at 29Hz, not 32Hz :duh:. That will definitely be plenty! Does anyone know what the M3 Sapphire is rated at?

Keep in mind that extension does not convey the whole picture when it comes to bass authority and scale.  The rule of there is no replacement for displacement applies to above 32Hz bass as well.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tyson on 1 Sep 2019, 07:10 pm
Yep, a 12 inch woofer and a 15 inch woofer might both reach 30hz, but the 15 inch will do it with more authority, other things being equal.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 1 Sep 2019, 07:52 pm
Yep, a 12 inch woofer and a 15 inch woofer might both reach 30hz, but the 15 inch will do it with more authority, other things being equal.
I respectfully disagree.

Usually, when you have larger woofers, you tend to have more distortion (not in all cases). For example, my modern speakers with 7" woofers can dig deeper than my vintage JBL 4345 with 18" woofer. Mind you, the JBL 4345 is supposed to dig deeper, but sounds worse!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Stargate on 1 Sep 2019, 10:06 pm
Keep in mind that extension does not convey the whole picture when it comes to bass authority and scale.  The rule of there is no replacement for displacement applies to above 32Hz bass as well.
Maybe I should buy both and then decide which sounds the best?  :thumb: :lol:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 1 Sep 2019, 10:53 pm
Maybe I should buy both and then decide which sounds the best?  :thumb: :lol:

Then, in at least 500 words, compare and contrast.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 5 Sep 2019, 03:24 pm
Hey guys,

We are skipping RMAF this time. Thought I better mention that since a lot of people have asked. Will wait and see how things go in the new hotel.

Next show for us will be Capitol Audiofest Nov 1, then Florida, Munich and Axpona in the spring.

Clayton
www.spatialaudio.us
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tyson on 5 Sep 2019, 05:24 pm
I respectfully disagree.

Usually, when you have larger woofers, you tend to have more distortion (not in all cases). For example, my modern speakers with 7" woofers can dig deeper than my vintage JBL 4345 with 18" woofer. Mind you, the JBL 4345 is supposed to dig deeper, but sounds worse!

You have to compare apples to apples.  A 12 inch woofer and a 15 inch woofer, both from the same company, both designed as bass drivers (as opposed to "midbass" drivers), both designed to go down to 30hz.  I can promise you that the 15 inch woofer will be able to hit 30hz with less distortion.  It's a simple question of swept volume.  The larger woofer moves more air, so therefore can hit the lower ranges with less cone movement, which is what you want in a bass driver.  All other things being equal, of course (apples and all that).
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 5 Sep 2019, 05:41 pm
After having owned a few speakers with 15" bass drivers, it's hard to go back to multiple 6/8/10 inch drivers.

Danny's OB 12" subs get a pass......... :lol:

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 6 Sep 2019, 12:31 am
You have to compare apples to apples.  A 12 inch woofer and a 15 inch woofer, both from the same company, both designed as bass drivers (as opposed to "midbass" drivers), both designed to go down to 30hz.  I can promise you that the 15 inch woofer will be able to hit 30hz with less distortion.  It's a simple question of swept volume.  The larger woofer moves more air, so therefore can hit the lower ranges with less cone movement, which is what you want in a bass driver.  All other things being equal, of course (apples and all that).

Very well put.  At RMAF a couple years ago I had a paradigm altering experience listening to a pair of flagship Tannoys with a 15 inch woofer.  Tight detailed bass that was amazing.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: ttan98 on 6 Sep 2019, 02:31 am
After having owned a few speakers with 15" bass drivers, it's hard to go back to multiple 6/8/10 inch drivers.

Danny's OB 12" subs get a pass......... :lol:

I thought Danny's servo subwoofers with matching ampl. are very good, that is why Spatial is using them in their top of the range speakers.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 6 Sep 2019, 07:28 am
They are very good, that is what I meant.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tyson on 6 Sep 2019, 02:42 pm
Re: the Rythmik OB subs - dual 12" subs will sweep more air than a single 15, especially those drivers, they are very long throw which lets them move even more air.  Add the servo control on top of that and it's not even a fair fight at that point :D
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 6 Sep 2019, 02:57 pm
I've got to say that even though they can't move as much air as dual 12" servo subs, the horn loaded bass bins of khorns do a very good job of loading a room. And they also have very good definition and correct pitch.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 12 Sep 2019, 06:08 pm
I see that the M3 Sapphire specs are now posted on the Spatial Website.  Was a bit surprised to see that the M3 are 4 ohms while the M5 are 8 ohms.  Should still work as well if not better with my amp.

Clayton,  What is the min impedance dip on the M3 Sapphire?  Wonder if they are a challenge for amps that are not well suited for 2 ohms. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 12 Sep 2019, 06:41 pm
I see that the M3 Sapphire specs are now posted on the Spatial Website.  Was a bit surprised to see that the M3 are 4 ohms while the M5 are 8 ohms.  Should still work as well if not better with my amp.

Clayton,  What is the min impedance dip on the M3 Sapphire?  Wonder if they are a challenge for amps that are not well suited for 2 ohms.

Looks like adding a second bass driver lowered the impedance.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 12 Sep 2019, 09:16 pm
I see that the M3 Sapphire specs are now posted on the Spatial Website.  Was a bit surprised to see that the M3 are 4 ohms while the M5 are 8 ohms.  Should still work as well if not better with my amp.

Clayton,  What is the min impedance dip on the M3 Sapphire?  Wonder if they are a challenge for amps that are not well suited for 2 ohms.

Yes, the 2 woofers operate in parallel below 100Hz, so the impedance drops to 4 Ohms. Minimum is about 3 Ohms over a very narrow range. So, solid state amps usually work better if anything. Any decent solid state amp will work fine into a 4 Ohm load. Tube amps should have a 4 Ohm output tap for optimum performance.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: boisty on 28 Sep 2019, 07:11 pm
Any photos of these in black, white, or red paint as listed on the website?  Thanks!

Boisty
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: kheidenr on 7 Oct 2019, 07:23 pm
Anyone have the M3 or M5 in their listening rooms yet and can offer up a perspective on these speakers?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 7 Oct 2019, 07:36 pm
Great question.  I know they started shipping last week.  Waiting for shipping confirmation for my M3 Sapphires in Sepele to show up in my inbox any day now.  Will certainly post some things after I get mine.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: kheidenr on 7 Oct 2019, 09:14 pm
Cool!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 7 Oct 2019, 11:04 pm
Waiting on a pair of M5’s... hopefully some good listening coming soon.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: kheidenr on 7 Oct 2019, 11:58 pm
Thx.  I am interested in particular how the mid/hi frequency driver sounds.  Very curious about the tranparency and musicality of it.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 8 Oct 2019, 12:14 am
Thx.  I am interested in particular how the mid/hi frequency driver sounds.  Very curious about the tranparency and musicality of it.

Glad to share my experience and answer all I can.  Me and certainly Jazzman463 can't wait to unbox these speakers and run them in.  I am currently running a par of Spatial M3TM.  Play lots of music lately and building up an acoustic memory of key albums that I will audition on the M3 Sapphires when they arrive and have been run in.  I will give my comparisons along with music, gear, etc.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 8 Oct 2019, 09:38 am
Not sure if this is helpful, but if the sapphire series is anything close to the X series, you guys are in for a real treat.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 8 Oct 2019, 02:35 pm
Not sure if this is helpful, but if the sapphire series is anything close to the X series, you guys are in for a real treat.

Shakey

Hopefully will be close in some ways.  The M3/M5 15” woofers are the same as the X3 other than not being powered or DSP which I would imagine is a large advantage of the X3.  However Clayton does say that they have more nuance and impact than the current M3 woofers which is great if that is where you are coming from.  I also plan to get a Rythmik sub or two in about a year.  Possibly Spatial subs if released by then.  Lots of the classical music I listen to has organ.

A lot is riding on that new sapphire dome driver.  Does not appear to have controlled directivity like the X3 and the old M3.  But supposed to have a significantly larger stage than the old M3.  Fortunately my room has decent treatment so reflections are less of a concern.  One of the things I would like to see improved on my current M3TM is soundstage height.  Apparently the M3 Sapphire solves that.  And the sapphire driver is mounted to a separate baffle from the woofers to isolate it from vibration.  The M3 Sapphire is also 30 lbs heavier per speaker than my M3TM.  After all that there is also the lack of crossover the making the M3 Sapphire a major redesign.  Clayton says it is a significant improvement.  He told me that there is not a sonic parameter he can think of where the new M3 it is not an improvement.  So while I do not expect a speaker at the level of the X3 I am expecting something considerably different and a significant upgrade over my M3TM.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: vondy on 8 Oct 2019, 05:37 pm
Does not appear to have controlled directivity like the X3 and the old M3.  But supposed to have a significantly larger stage than the old M3.  Fortunately my room has decent treatment so reflections are less of a concern.

I'm curious about this. One of the main reasons I went with the M3 was to eliminate most of my room problems. This would be a concern for me if I ever wanted to upgrade to the Sapphires.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 8 Oct 2019, 06:06 pm
I'm curious about this. One of the main reasons I went with the M3 was to eliminate most of my room problems. This would be a concern for me if I ever wanted to upgrade to the Sapphires.

Hi Vondy,

Most room issues are in the bass range, where box speakers excite a lot of rooms resonances. So with the Sapphire models being dipolar below 575Hz, most of the benefits are still there. The only issue would if your room is overly live, like a lot of glass, tile, etc. In that case, the X series is a better choice with the AMT's controlled radiation pattern in the treble range.

Clayton
www.spatialaudio.us
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 8 Oct 2019, 06:14 pm
I'm curious about this. One of the main reasons I went with the M3 was to eliminate most of my room problems. This would be a concern for me if I ever wanted to upgrade to the Sapphires.

I am sure Clayton would have better insight on this.  One thing about open baffle speakers is the sound nulls at the sides of the speaker.  I am sure you have noticed this with your M3s.  This alone to a degree helps with room issues.  That said the dispersion of the dome will be more than 80 degrees.  Probably more of an issue with large rooms and/or listening further back from speakers.  I will be sure and share anything I notice with respect to this. 

I had room issues as well.  Bass overload and uneven reinforcement due to left side with wall and right side open to the other half of the room.  My old speakers had too much bass boost and an image shifted to the left.  Spatials have none of these issues in my room.  I am thinking the M3 Sapphires will do fine but will not know till I have spent some time with them.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Superflam on 14 Oct 2019, 01:36 pm
Hello all,

My first post here. I am about to receive the M5 Sapphires that I purchased and am really excited to hear them. Has anyone received theirs yet and have any first impressions they care to share?

Thanks,
Joe
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 14 Oct 2019, 02:51 pm
Hello all,

My first post here. I am about to receive the M5 Sapphires that I purchased and am really excited to hear them. Has anyone received theirs yet and have any first impressions they care to share?

Thanks,
Joe

Sounds like you will be getting your M5 before I get my M3 as I do not have a shipment notice yet.  Look forward to hearing your impressions.  I am thinking that if the M5 sounds as good as we hope it does it will be a big seller.  Has very nice aesthetics.  Which veneer did you choose?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Superflam on 14 Oct 2019, 03:45 pm
I wasnt too picky about finish. The Walnut looked good to me.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 14 Oct 2019, 04:25 pm
Hey Superflam, I am also waiting on a pair of M5's. Keep us in the loop and send some pics our way...back view if possible. What size room you putting them in, and what kind of power ?

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Superflam on 14 Oct 2019, 05:40 pm
Hi Jazzman!

My room is about 15' x 10' x 8' and I'm powering them with a Rogue Cronus Magnum III amp. They are scheduled to be delivered this Wednesday and I'm taking Thursday off from work to spend time with them!

When are yours scheduled for?

Thanks,
Joe
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 14 Oct 2019, 07:28 pm
Hi Jazzman!

My room is about 15' x 10' x 8' and I'm powering them with a Rogue Cronus Magnum III amp. They are scheduled to be delivered this Wednesday and I'm taking Thursday off from work to spend time with them!

When are yours scheduled for?

Thanks,
Joe

I have been interested in the Cronos Magnum III amp for some time.  Would like to hear more about your impression with regard to that amp as well.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 15 Oct 2019, 12:06 pm
Wow, what is your location ? I have not received a shipping order as of yet. The Rogue should be a great match. My room is 12.5 X 13.5 and using a Manley Stingray . Happy listening !
Mike
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: PS on 20 Oct 2019, 07:39 pm
@jazzman463

Very eager to learn how your new Spatials sound.  My listening room is about the size of yours and I'm strongly considering ordering a pair of the M5 Sapphires.  I've got a choice of good ss or tube electronics to power them.
Hope you love 'em!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 20 Oct 2019, 09:49 pm
M Sapphire Series production now running smoothly - Friday's group heading into QC.

Clayton

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199900)

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 20 Oct 2019, 10:38 pm
M Sapphire Series production now running smoothly - Friday's group heading into QC.

Clayton

Looking good!  Glad to hear things are going smoothly (:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 21 Oct 2019, 11:39 am
Ya hoo !
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Downtheline on 22 Oct 2019, 05:01 am
Are those the first of the walnut finish we have seen? They look great! Would love to see better pictures, and to see the maple ones also.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Superflam on 24 Oct 2019, 05:33 pm
Anyone have the M3 or M5 in their listening rooms yet and can offer up a perspective on these speakers?

I've had the M5 for a few days now. My initial feedback is that the low end is the best part of what I'm hearing so far. I'm wanting more presence and weight from the mids. The highs are non-fatiguing. For comparison though I find my Kef R11's to be a tad more resolving with greater air and detail.

I spoke to Clayton this morning. He said that all of these aspects will improve with break-in. The M5's only have about 20 hours on them so far.

I'd be interested to hear from other Spatial owners as to their experience with speaker break-in and what improvements they experienced over time.

Cheers,
Joe
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 24 Oct 2019, 06:07 pm
I've had the M5 for a few days now. My initial feedback is that the low end is the best part of what I'm hearing so far. I'm wanting more presence and weight from the mids. The highs are non-fatiguing. For comparison though I find my Kef R11's to be a tad more resolving with greater air and detail.

I spoke to Clayton this morning. He said that all of these aspects will improve with break-in. The M5's only have about 20 hours on them so far.

I'd be interested to hear from other Spatial owners as to their experience with speaker break-in and what improvements they experienced over time.

Cheers,
Joe

I can tell you that with my M3 Triode Masters initially the midrange sounded like it was coming directly out of the speakers.  Attention was drawn directly to each of the drivers which is exactly what I do not like.  However after about 60 hours the sound completely detached from the speakers and I got the imaging the Spatials are known for.  In general I have noticed when speakers break in they start like a photograph of a celebrity that has been airbrushed.  As the speaker breaks in it is like the airbrushing melts away and the detail is revealed warts and all at least to the extent that they can deliver detail.

The M5 are a much different design and I am sure their break-in process will be different.  That said I am pretty sure that you have not heard what they are capable of yet.  My M3s are supposed to ship this Friday.  Will post my experience through the break in period.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 25 Oct 2019, 11:00 am
It's good to hear some reports of M5s in the wild. Keep 'em coming...........

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Audiosaurusrex on 25 Oct 2019, 02:02 pm
Snowpuppy, You might be the very first with the M3 Sapphires. I have them in my cart and ready to purchase but was really hoping to hear some reviews. I have talked with Clayton and read so much about the Spatial line. I am replacing my older Vandersteen 2ce's so I am expecting some real improvements across the board. Would really like to hear your opinions.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 25 Oct 2019, 02:36 pm
Snowpuppy, You might be the very first with the M3 Sapphires. I have them in my cart and ready to purchase but was really hoping to hear some reviews. I have talked with Clayton and read so much about the Spatial line. I am replacing my older Vandersteen 2ce's so I am expecting some real improvements across the board. Would really like to hear your opinions.

Look forward to sharing.  I can try to post a pick of the back of the speaker.  Look at my exchange with Mark at Linear Tube Audio here as he already has a pair of M3 Sapphires:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160603.msg1763251#msg1763251

Superflam,  Could you post a pic of the back of the M5?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 25 Oct 2019, 02:57 pm
Hi Superflam, We ( Sapphire owners) are putting a lot of faith into that M100 driver. Its going to be doing a lot of work for us. I do feel the bass will always be right on as that has been evolving from the CS line Clayton designed. I am all in with Clayton's experience in OB evolution, and his excitement with the M100. I am happy to hear the words in you feedback so far , no fatigue with the highs. I do think that is important. I have faith everything else will come. I think the M5's are the cornerstone in  the Spatial's line and I trust Clayton's ears on that M 100 driver, but I do admit it is hard to realize that thing is handling so much important information. Enjoy you weekend with your new speakers. PS do you feel 35 watts of tube can push those things?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 25 Oct 2019, 08:02 pm
Snowpuppy's M3 Sapphires are shipping today.

35 W should be plenty (depending on the amp design). I have been listening to the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL10 with 10W output and it drives them very well and sounds great.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 25 Oct 2019, 08:38 pm
I am surprised to know that the Z10 with only 12 watts 4ohms drives the M3 Sapphires so well.  Z10 must be over achiever for the wattage and/or M3 are even easier to drive than specs would indicate (though good specs).  Just usually think of 10 watt amps for 98 db Klipsch or something. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 28 Oct 2019, 06:28 pm
Clayton,

When I saw your above photo, I got excited because I figured the single pair of M3 Sapphire speakers in Walnut were the pair I have on order. But now I suspect that was the pair that got shipped to Snowpuppy.

Looking forward to hearing the Sapphire's this weekend at CAF (and receiving mine as well).

: )

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 28 Oct 2019, 07:00 pm
Mine are in Sepele darker that the ones in the pic.  They have left the Spatial facility but have not left Salt Lake City yet according to tracking.  Forecasted arrival this Friday.  Hopefully they will call to schedule delivery then.  It is coming by freight.

PS.  Was thinking you will probably get to hear them before I do at CAF.  Wish I could be there.  Look forward to hearing your impressions.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 28 Oct 2019, 07:47 pm
Mine are in Sepele darker that the ones in the pic.  They have left the Spatial facility but have not left Salt Lake City yet according to tracking.  Forecasted arrival this Friday.  Hopefully they will call to schedule delivery then.  It is coming by freight.

PS.  Was thinking you will probably get to hear them before I do at CAF.  Wish I could be there.  Look forward to hearing your impressions.

Correction.  Freight company just called and said they were coming tomorrow afternoon.  That is much quicker than I was expecting.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 28 Oct 2019, 08:34 pm
Just like Christmas ain’t it? Have fun!!!

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 28 Oct 2019, 09:16 pm
SnowPuppy77,

Arriving tomorrow afternoon. That is exciting. Sounds like a good excuse to take an afternoon off work.

As for the wood finishes, I am now confused. The wood options are Walnut, Sapele, and Maple. Since Maple is very light, I am assuming the two woods shown in Clayton's above photo are Walnut and Sapele. I am thinking that Walnut is darker than Sapele, so to me the far left M5 pair and the bigger pair of M3's in the back are Walnut  (and the lighter 3 pairs of M5's are Sapele).

Let us know when you open them tomorrow which ones your look like in the photo. The darker ones or the more medium tone ones.

...and first impressions as well.

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 28 Oct 2019, 09:38 pm
Hi Paul - see you in a few days at CAF.

We made a darker tinted version of Sepele for SnowPuppy. So, like the Sepele in the pic but darker.

Your pair is coming up shortly - big backlog to get through.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 28 Oct 2019, 10:24 pm
Clayton,

Mystery solved.  Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

Yes, I imagine you are very busy with a big backlog. I have a few customers that are waiting for mine to arrive so they can come over and hear them.  When they do, you might get another wave of orders.

I'll be sure to post here when mine are ready to audition. All are welcome.

See ya Thursday.

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 28 Oct 2019, 10:39 pm
Clayton,

What speakers will you be using at the show?

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 29 Oct 2019, 12:02 am
Clayton,

What speakers will you be using at the show?

Shakey

I know that there will be a room that has the LTA Z10 integrated amplified and a pair of M3 Sapphires.

https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/news-blog
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 29 Oct 2019, 12:23 am
I know that there will be a room that has the LTA Z10 integrated amplified and a pair of M3 Sapphires.

https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/news-blog

Correct  - we are rooming with LTA and mating the amazing Z10 Integrated amp with M3 Sapphires in Sepele. Should be a blast.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 29 Oct 2019, 02:54 pm
Yes, that is room 526 and it will be fully wired with these AntiCables wires:

- Level 3.3 USB cord

- Level 6.2 RCA ICs

- Level 3.1 (or possibly Level 6) Speaker Wires

- Level 3 Power Cords

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 29 Oct 2019, 10:51 pm

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200280)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200281)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200282)

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 29 Oct 2019, 10:53 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200284)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200283)


Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: kheidenr on 29 Oct 2019, 11:05 pm
Very cool!!  Can't wait until you get them burned in for a report.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tyson on 29 Oct 2019, 11:06 pm
Aesthetically - they look even cooler than your last pair of Spatials.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 29 Oct 2019, 11:08 pm
Pictures do not do this speaker justice.  They look nicer and bigger in person.  To me they dwarf the M3TM when you see them together.  The finish is beautiful.  The regular Sepele just has clear coat finish while Clayton made mine a little darker at my request.  I am confident that whichever finish you get it will look terrific.  They are gorgeous IMO.

It is way to early to really discuss sound quality though I will in the days ahead.  For now I will say that image height is significantly improved.  I like that the high/mid drive is up much higher than the old model.  The speakers sound like new speakers and are still a little stiff.  However I can already tell that the bass is in a different league in every way even this early.  And the highs have more extension.  Hearing lots of interesting things but that will have to wait.  Off to a good start.  More to come.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Audiosaurusrex on 30 Oct 2019, 12:34 am
OMG Snowpuppy, Gorgeous! Exactly the ones I want to get. Was there an upcharge for the darker shade?
Looking forward to your listening impressions.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SlushPuppy on 30 Oct 2019, 12:55 am
Nice finish!  :thumb:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 30 Oct 2019, 01:16 am
OMG Snowpuppy, Gorgeous! Exactly the ones I want to get. Was there an upcharge for the darker shade?
Looking forward to your listening impressions.

No upcharge.  You should see some good pictures of the normal Sepele coming out of the Capital Audio Fest going on this weekend.  No doublt it is just as nice.  The wood grain is complex and intricate and changes looks with angle of light in natural finish no doubt.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 30 Oct 2019, 03:00 am
Wow, beautiful !!!  I'm pumped to see them in the real.

I hate to say this, because I am a terrible speller...    but isn't "Sepele", actually suppose to be spelled "Sapele". At least that is how Google is always correcting it for me.

: )

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 30 Oct 2019, 07:57 am
Beautiful speakers snowpuppy. Almost makes me wish I had gone with the darker finish. I’m sure you are in for a treat in the coming days.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 30 Oct 2019, 11:12 am
Beautiful speakers snowpuppy. Almost makes me wish I had gone with the darker finish. I’m sure you are in for a treat in the coming days.

Shakey

While I am at work today going to use my Ayer "Irrational, But Efficacious" CD to pump brown noise into them.  Plan to do the same thing tomorrow and then switch to pink noise this Friday.  Not enough to break-in yet but should start to review more of their character for extended listening this weekend.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 30 Oct 2019, 12:01 pm
My X3s didn't seem to need a long break in period. They didn't change much after around 75 hours or so.

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 30 Oct 2019, 12:06 pm
Snowpuppy, Wow congrats. Until I saw that picture of the old and new together I really thought I liked the old design better ( more modern ) but they look  gorgeous. COVETOUS :showing a great desire to possess something belonging to someone else. Forgive me Father for I have sinned.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 30 Oct 2019, 12:47 pm
Wow, beautiful !!!  I'm pumped to see them in the real.

I hate to say this, because I am a terrible speller...    but isn't "Sepele", actually suppose to be spelled "Sapele". At least that is how Google is always correcting it for me.

: )

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Yes I just looked it up and noticed that.  Looking deeper I am seeing both spellings but Sapele is the more common spelling.

By the way I measured from the carpet to the top of the speaker and got 48.25 inches.  This speaker has quite a presence in the room and it is hard to stop staring at them. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: drhoon on 30 Oct 2019, 02:41 pm
Pictures do not do this speaker justice.  They look nicer and bigger in person.  To me they dwarf the M3TM when you see them together.  The finish is beautiful.  The regular Sepele just has clear coat finish while Clayton made mine a little darker at my request.  I am confident that whichever finish you get it will look terrific.  They are gorgeous IMO.

It is way to early to really discuss sound quality though I will in the days ahead.  For now I will say that image height is significantly improved.  I like that the high/mid drive is up much higher than the old model.  The speakers sound like new speakers and are still a little stiff.  However I can already tell that the bass is in a different league in every way even this early.  And the highs have more extension.  Hearing lots of interesting things but that will have to wait.  Off to a good start.  More to come.

What do you mean sounds " stiff"? I believe shakeydeal also mentioned this when he first got his x3.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 30 Oct 2019, 02:58 pm
I won't pretend to answer for snowpuppy, but here is my take.

To my ears, when speakers are new they just don't swing. The music is trying to get out of the speakers, but it sounds like two boxes (or not, LOL) with the sound trapped at or near the plane of the speakers. The bass can sound a little constricted too. But after break in, it sounds like performers in the room. Or about as close as you can get with a facsimile of the real thing. Of course bass always improves too.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 30 Oct 2019, 03:16 pm
What do you mean sounds " stiff"? I believe shakeydeal also mentioned this when he first got his x3.

Every new speaker or headphone I have every tried sounds stiff at first to me and becomes more natural, fuller and smoother with break-in.  Sometimes detail improves or at least the soundstage opens up.  And to me these changes are not subtle for speakers.  So think of it as a general term for a speaker that is not broken in. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 30 Oct 2019, 03:22 pm
I won't pretend to answer for snowpuppy, but here is my take.

To my ears, when speakers are new they just don't swing. The music is trying to get out of the speakers, but it sounds like two boxes (or not, LOL) with the sound trapped at or near the plane of the speakers. The bass can sound a little constricted too. But after break in, it sounds like performers in the room. Or about as close as you can get with a facsimile of the real thing. Of course bass always improves too.

Shakey

Well put
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: drhoon on 30 Oct 2019, 03:53 pm
Ok thanks for the insight
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 1 Nov 2019, 04:17 pm
Just wanted to give a quick update and let everyone know that I am have a great time with my new M3 Sapphires.  Have had busy week so not nearly as much audition time as I would like to have yet.  Should have some real quality time with them this weekend and I will post further impressions.  There are a few familiar tracks that have sounded stellar on the M3 Sapphires.  The Doors Riders on the Storm at a moderate volume.  Would normally play louder but it was getting late.  Honestly I was amazed at how alive the music sounded at that volume.  The presentation was enveloping.  Bass had a nice meaty thump and the detail in the highs was plentiful and effortlessly heard.  The spacey keyboards were psychedelically floating in space.  So cool.  The first two tracks on Bromberg Wood sounded the best I have ever heard in my listening room.  More to come.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 1 Nov 2019, 04:38 pm
SnowPupp77-

Forgive me if you’ve mentioned this before but what were your previous speakers?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 1 Nov 2019, 05:07 pm
SnowPupp77-

Forgive me if you’ve mentioned this before but what were your previous speakers?

ADS L520, Paradigm Studio Referrence 100 v.2, Spatial M3 Triode Masters.  I have a pair of Usher Berrylium Dancers in a second system. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 1 Nov 2019, 06:14 pm
yaaah. 6371's  in my second system.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 1 Nov 2019, 09:00 pm
Hi, I just heard the M3 Sapphire's at the Capital Audiofest 2019 today.  Listened to a dozen-odd speakers today.  My M3 Sapphires are on order, not much else to say. Thanks to everyone on this forum for helping push me to poney up. JAJ
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 1 Nov 2019, 11:45 pm
Hi, I just heard the M3 Sapphire's at the Capital Audiofest 2019 today.  Listened to a dozen-odd speakers today.  My M3 Sapphires are on order, not much else to say. Thanks to everyone on this forum for helping push me to poney up. JAJ

Congratulations!  I just listened to a 35 min Porcupine Tree track on the Sky Moves Sideways album in total bliss the entire time on the M3 Sapphires.  I was mesmerized.  Heard countless nuance I had never heard before.  Have never come close to enjoying this track so much with no fatigue on the intentionally harsh sections even at moderately loud volume.  Hope you enjoy them!  What finish did you get?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 2 Nov 2019, 12:12 am
."Congratulations!  I just listened to a 35 min Porcupine Tree track on the Sky Moves Sideways album in total bliss the entire time on the M3 Sapphires.  I was mesmerized.  Heard countless nuance I had never heard before.  Have never come close to enjoying this track so much with no fatigue on the intentionally harsh sections even at moderately loud volume.  Hope you enjoy them!  What finish did you get?"

 I am very glad to get them. Sat next to guy in the room who bought them also, a former M3 owner. Wish I could remember his name.   Hopefully, these will be a huge success for the Spatial Audio team.  I go the darker tint of Sapele following you I think.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 2 Nov 2019, 01:09 am
Sounds like the M3 Sapphires are a big hit at the show. Looking forward to more reports.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 2 Nov 2019, 02:08 am
Yeah, would love to hear what people thought of the differences between the X3’s and M3’s
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 2 Nov 2019, 01:05 pm
."Sat next to guy in the room who bought them also, a former M3 owner. Wish I could remember his name. 

That was me, Paul Speltz. I am currently running M3TM and I have a pair of M3 Sapphire on order. I am at Capital AudioFest so like you, I got to hear them for the first time here. I was there when Clayton asked you what you think, and I heard you say "I'm keeping them on order"; well me too. They are great!

I mentioned to Clayton yesterday that I am having a difficult time finding anything that they are weak at. They are beautiful sonically and visually. They are not just great for the price, they are just great period. They are highly resolving without being analytical, which is a difficult thing to do, and a complement to the entire system which also includes: LampizatOr, Linear Tube Audio, and AntiCables.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200404)


Capital AudioFest 2019 Room 526. Jacob of LTA, Fred of LampizatOr, Clayton of Spatial, and Paul of AntiCables.


If you are at the show, stop in and say hi.

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 3 Nov 2019, 10:03 am
Quote
That was me, Paul Speltz

Great to know who you are!  I was down for the day only. I agree with your assessment of the M3 Sapphires. It is hard not to have them now in my house now.
     I asked Clayton what were the speaker cables he had on them and I was on your website yesterday looking at the 3.1's.
    The system that is being shown ( Picture, no server) was $10,000 and it was absolutely great, and the speakers did not have allot of hours on them also. Can you imagine what that quality of sound would have cost 10 years ago? $10,000 is a allot of money but attainable. JAJ
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 3 Nov 2019, 08:00 pm
Thought you all would like to see the M3 Sapphire and M3 TM side by side:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200447)

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: PS on 3 Nov 2019, 09:10 pm
Thanks, SnowPuppy77 ! Both are handsome in their respective ways- great to see them side-by-side and in a room for scale.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 3 Nov 2019, 09:17 pm
Anybody know if the M5’s or X3/5’s we’re also at Cap Fest?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 3 Nov 2019, 09:27 pm
The X3/X5's were not at the show
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 3 Nov 2019, 09:40 pm
Thanks, SnowPuppy77 ! Both are handsome in their respective ways- great to see them side-by-side and in a room for scale.

Beautiful... Keep the sound descriptions coming. I cannot wait to get mine going. Best, JAJ
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: aniwolfe on 4 Nov 2019, 03:05 am
The tweeter height on the M3 looks about 44"?
My ear height is about 38"...should I consider the M5 only, which looks to have a tweeter height about 38-39" high?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 4 Nov 2019, 03:19 am
The tweeter height on the M3 looks about 44"?
My ear height is about 38"...should I consider the M5 only, which looks to have a tweeter height about 38-39" high?

The tweeter is about 43.5" above the carpet in my room.  I personally would not let tweeter height be the determining factor.  I find the tweeter height of the M3 provides an immersive image.  Still images to your ear level like the M3TM images up to the ear level.  That said stage height of the M3 Sapphire is much improved over the M3TM.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 4 Nov 2019, 01:51 pm
Get that production machine rolling ! This thread has put me into a frenzy.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 4 Nov 2019, 11:18 pm
Check out this Stereophile write up of the LTA, Anticable, Lampizator, and Spatial room:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/spatial-m3-sapphire-loudspeakers-linear-tube-audio-z10-integrated-amplifier-lampizator-amber
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: abd1 on 5 Nov 2019, 01:06 am
Check out this Stereophile write up of the LTA, Anticable, Lampizator, and Spatial room:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/spatial-m3-sapphire-loudspeakers-linear-tube-audio-z10-integrated-amplifier-lampizator-amber

Great write up, and these are the m series! Looking forward to more reviews of the X series.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 5 Nov 2019, 02:04 am
Check out this Stereophile write up of the LTA, Anticable, Lampizator, and Spatial room:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/spatial-m3-sapphire-loudspeakers-linear-tube-audio-z10-integrated-amplifier-lampizator-amber

That was the first time I really talked with Herb - such a nice guy.

Clayton
Spatial Audio Lab
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 5 Nov 2019, 02:24 am
That was the first time I really talked with Herb - such a nice guy.

Clayton
Spatial Audio Lab

By the way Clayton my Dad saw this article on his flipboard app on his phone:

http://flip.it/Ku7.NN

He then texted it to me.  I met Herb two years ago at RMAF and I also thought he was a really nice guy.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 5 Nov 2019, 10:54 am
That was the first time I really talked with Herb - such a nice guy.

Clayton
Spatial Audio Lab

Glad mine are on order........ I am not sure best in the show is official but I listen to allot rooms and Herb is correct. The music is just present with these speakers vs being a force projected at you.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tyson on 5 Nov 2019, 05:24 pm
Glad mine are on order........ I am not sure best in the show is official but I listen to allot rooms and Herb is correct. The music is just present with these speakers vs being a force projected at you.

Welcome to the world of high end OB sound!  :)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 5 Nov 2019, 06:56 pm
I'm glad I got my M3 Sapphires on order ahead of the CAF show too.

When the CAF show ended on Saturday, most of the rooms were closed and locked and people were heading down to the bar /restaurant to have a drink and listen to live jazz.  Since AntiCables was spread out in 5 different demo locations, I didn't get back to the Spatial / LTA / LampizatOr / AntiCables room until about 10 minutes after the show ended, and this is what I walked into...


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200512)

 
...a packed room.  Every seat was taken.

In the front center seat (wearing the dak leather coat) is Herb from Stereophile. There was actually a second reviewer in there at that time as well. Clayton may remember who that was.

Got to run.  When I have time later this week, I'll do my best to describe the sound we were getting in that room to help those who were not able to be there.

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SFDude on 5 Nov 2019, 08:03 pm
Paul/Clayton, what panels were placed behind the M3 Sapphires?

Looks like a pretty great show for Spatial, LTA and Anticables!

-dave
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 5 Nov 2019, 11:17 pm
Paul/Clayton, what panels were placed behind the M3 Sapphires?

Looks like a pretty great show for Spatial, LTA and Anticables!

-dave

LTA brought 2 bass traps and a few absorbing panels, some of which went behind the M3s.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 5 Nov 2019, 11:42 pm
Paul/Clayton, what panels were placed behind the M3 Sapphires?

Looks like a pretty great show for Spatial, LTA and Anticables!

-dave

Don't forget the new Lampizator Amber 3 we used - great product and affordable at $2750.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 8 Nov 2019, 09:14 pm
I mentioned a few days ago that, when I have time later this week, I'll do my best to describe the sound we were getting in Room 526 at Capital AudioFest.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200613)


The digital source (Innuos server to Lampizator Amber 3 DAC), was good enough that I didn't pick up on any sonic signatures. Kind of like the AntiCables interconnects & Speaker Wires in that they did their job and got out of the way for the music to flow. It was a digital source that I could easily live with for many years.

The LTA Z10 Integrated amp was typical of the Linear Tube Audio's offerings, in that it combines the best aspects of tubes (palatable presence, great harmonic structure, sweet highs), with the best aspects of SS (low distortion, firm control). The 10 watt per channel was enough power for typical audiophile listening levels.

The new M3 Sapphire speakers were a bit unreal in their two strongest abilities, which I think were midrange resolution and bass:

1) Bass: These OB speakers had the bass weight of a ported box speaker (which usually requires a powered woofer with eq with OB designs), yet did so passively, and of course with no box sound. Usually with a passive OB speaker, one is willing to forgive not getting the bottom end bass weight, for acquiring open tuneful bass. With these you get both. Quite amazing.

2) Midrange: The very first thing that came to mind to me when I first heard the M3 Sapphire speakers, was horn like resolution. Chuck Bottemiller is one of AntiCables design partners. He is a highly talented engineer with skill sets in many aspects of audio, including speaker design. For years, Chuck's system has been my place to go for a sanity check. His system is so resolving, I often go there to take a second listen of what ever I working on. His speakers use the TAD TD-2001 beryllium compression driver into a constant directionality horn from 1kHz on up. I have a hard time thinking of another speaker I've heard that is able to resolve low level information in the midrange better than these. I have to say the M3 Sapphire speakers sounded closer in the midrange to the horn loaded TAD than any other I can think of. Very nice!

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: abd1 on 8 Nov 2019, 10:41 pm
I mentioned a few days ago that, when I have time later this week, I'll do my best to describe the sound we were getting in Room 526 at Capital AudioFest.

The digital source (Innuos server to Lampizator Amber 3 DAC), was good enough that I didn't pick up on any sonic signatures. Kind of like the AntiCables interconnects & Speaker Wires in that they did their job and got out of the way for the music to flow. It was a digital source that I could easily live with for many years.

The LTA Z10 Integrated amp was typical of the Linear Tube Audio's offerings, in that it combines the best aspects of tubes (palatable presence, great harmonic structure, sweet highs), with the best aspects of SS (low distortion, firm control). The 10 watt per channel was enough power for typical audiophile listening levels.

The new M3 Sapphire speakers were a bit unreal in their two strongest abilities, which I think were midrange resolution and bass:

1) Bass: These OB speakers had the bass weight of a ported box speaker (which usually requires a powered woofer with eq with OB designs), yet did so passively, and of course with no box sound. Usually with a passive OB speaker, one is willing to forgive not getting the bottom end bass weight, for acquiring open tuneful bass. With these you get both. Quite amazing.

2) Midrange: The very first thing that came to mind to me when I first heard the M3 Sapphire speakers, was horn like resolution. Chuck Bottemiller is one of AntiCables design partners. He is a highly talented engineer with skill sets in many aspects of audio, including speaker design. For years, Chuck's system has been my place to go for a sanity check. His system is so resolving, I often go there to take a second listen of what ever I working on. His speakers use the TAD TD-2001 beryllium compression driver into a constant directionality horn from 1kHz on up. I have a hard time thinking of another speaker I've heard that is able to resolve low level information in the midrange better than these. I have to say the M3 Sapphire speakers sounded closer in the midrange to the horn loaded TAD than any other I can think of. Very nice!

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Thanks for the review. It looks like the room was narrow-ish and the speakers fairly close together and close to side walls. This is close to my setup as my room isn't huge, but it opens up to about 1200sq ft. I'm wondering how the imaging and soundstage was in this room? Did the speakers disappear and was there depth in the soundstage? I'm interested in the X5's since they're a bit more narrow and have the powered sub, so I imagine anything you say positive with the M's will only improve with the X's. Thanks again.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 9 Nov 2019, 02:24 am
I mentioned a few days ago that, when I have time later this week, I'll do my best to describe the sound we were getting in Room 526 at Capital AudioFest.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200613)


The digital source (Innuos server to Lampizator Amber 3 DAC), was good enough that I didn't pick up on any sonic signatures. Kind of like the AntiCables interconnects & Speaker Wires in that they did their job and got out of the way for the music to flow. It was a digital source that I could easily live with for many years.

The LTA Z10 Integrated amp was typical of the Linear Tube Audio's offerings, in that it combines the best aspects of tubes (palatable presence, great harmonic structure, sweet highs), with the best aspects of SS (low distortion, firm control). The 10 watt per channel was enough power for typical audiophile listening levels.

The new M3 Sapphire speakers were a bit unreal in their two strongest abilities, which I think were midrange resolution and bass:

1) Bass: These OB speakers had the bass weight of a ported box speaker (which usually requires a powered woofer with eq with OB designs), yet did so passively, and of course with no box sound. Usually with a passive OB speaker, one is willing to forgive not getting the bottom end bass weight, for acquiring open tuneful bass. With these you get both. Quite amazing.

2) Midrange: The very first thing that came to mind to me when I first heard the M3 Sapphire speakers, was horn like resolution. Chuck Bottemiller is one of AntiCables design partners. He is a highly talented engineer with skill sets in many aspects of audio, including speaker design. For years, Chuck's system has been my place to go for a sanity check. His system is so resolving, I often go there to take a second listen of what ever I working on. His speakers use the TAD TD-2001 beryllium compression driver into a constant directionality horn from 1kHz on up. I have a hard time thinking of another speaker I've heard that is able to resolve low level information in the midrange better than these. I have to say the M3 Sapphire speakers sounded closer in the midrange to the horn loaded TAD than any other I can think of. Very nice!

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Do you feel the high end needed more of something? The sound is full and well balanced in my mind. The highs were not sharpe but had definition.  If you are looking for a horn high end these are not those speakers.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 9 Nov 2019, 05:27 pm
Thanks for the review. It looks like the room was narrow-ish and the speakers fairly close together and close to side walls. This is close to my setup as my room isn't huge, but it opens up to about 1200sq ft. I'm wondering how the imaging and soundstage was in this room? Did the speakers disappear and was there depth in the soundstage? I'm interested in the X5's since they're a bit more narrow and have the powered sub, so I imagine anything you say positive with the M's will only improve with the X's. Thanks again.

abd1,

The photos make the room look narrower than it actually was. Although you can see from the above two photos, that the speaker placement changed from one photo to the other. The photo with the 3 of us standing in front was taken opening day. The speakers were set up semertic in the room (even distance from the back wall).

Saturday morning Clayton and Mark for LTA set up the system at a diagonal, which you can see in the previous photo. One of the advantages of the diagonal positioning is that when people walked into the room, even if all the seats were taken, they were still in a decent position to hear the system when standing in the left side entrance hallway (where I was standing when I took the photo). Again, the lens distortion makes the speakers look much closer together than actual.

From my 16 years of experience with OB speakers, I am thinking, if the 1200 feet of open space is behind you, either the passive M series or powered X series will work well. But, if the 1200 feet of open spade is off to the side of the speakers, some bass energy will be lost in that space (something I experienced in my listening room at a previous house). If that is the case, I'd recommend going for the X series. You can simply dial up the bass level on the integrated woofer amp to adjust for the open space off to the side.

The other difference I hear between the M series and the X series is dispersion. The new M-Sapphire series has a wider dispersion pattern, (wider than the previous M series offerings), where as the X series has a tighter controlled dispersion pattern. If needing to minimise side wall reflections, or sitting a further distance away from the speakers, the X series has advantages. If you need to get any deeper into specifics of this topic, I highly recommend you simply give Clayton a call. I'm sure he will help steer you into the best option for your specific needs.

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)



Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: xo3k on 9 Nov 2019, 07:57 pm
Interesting picture! I am sitting to the left of Herb and my friend Berk to his right. We met up in another room with Herb featuring the new Wharfedale Lintons (which he had reviewed) and struck up a conversation, in passing I mentioned that I had heard the Spatial M3 and really liked what I was hearing and was interested in giving them another listen. So we went to the listen to the Spatials after a stop in the LKV Research room.

Herb blogged his reaction so he speaks for himself. I was very impressed and am seriously thinking of ordering a pair as a contrast to my Harbeth SHL5, it seems to me the M3's have that open OB midrange and bass while retaining much of the Harbeth tonality, an excellent result. If I get them, I can drive them with my Flatte 50 amplifier (special reference for Clayton Shaw...)

BTW, the LTA amplifier and the cables were quite interesting and impressive themselves. Overall, a great sounding room.

Best, Kevin

I'm glad I got my M3 Sapphires on order ahead of the CAF show too.

When the CAF show ended on Saturday, most of the rooms were closed and locked and people were heading down to the bar /restaurant to have a drink and listen to live jazz.  Since AntiCables was spread out in 5 different demo locations, I didn't get back to the Spatial / LTA / LampizatOr / AntiCables room until about 10 minutes after the show ended, and this is what I walked into...


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200512)

 
...a packed room.  Every seat was taken.

In the front center seat (wearing the dak leather coat) is Herb from Stereophile. There was actually a second reviewer in there at that time as well. Clayton may remember who that was.

Got to run.  When I have time later this week, I'll do my best to describe the sound we were getting in that room to help those who were not able to be there.

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: abd1 on 9 Nov 2019, 10:52 pm
abd1,

The photos make the room look narrower than it actually was. Although you can see from the above two photos, that the speaker placement changed from one photo to the other. The photo with the 3 of us standing in front was taken opening day. The speakers were set up semertic in the room (even distance from the back wall).

Saturday morning Clayton and Mark for LTA set up the system at a diagonal, which you can see in the previous photo. One of the advantages of the diagonal positioning is that when people walked into the room, even if all the seats were taken, they were still in a decent position to hear the system when standing in the left side entrance hallway (where I was standing when I took the photo). Again, the lens distortion makes the speakers look much closer together than actual.

From my 16 years of experience with OB speakers, I am thinking, if the 1200 feet of open space is behind you, either the passive M series or powered X series will work well. But, if the 1200 feet of open spade is off to the side of the speakers, some bass energy will be lost in that space (something I experienced in my listening room at a previous house). If that is the case, I'd recommend going for the X series. You can simply dial up the bass level on the integrated woofer amp to adjust for the open space off to the side.

The other difference I hear between the M series and the X series is dispersion. The new M-Sapphire series has a wider dispersion pattern, (wider than the previous M series offerings), where as the X series has a tighter controlled dispersion pattern. If needing to minimise side wall reflections, or sitting a further distance away from the speakers, the X series has advantages. If you need to get any deeper into specifics of this topic, I highly recommend you simply give Clayton a call. I'm sure he will help steer you into the best option for your specific needs.

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Paul, thanks for the detailed description -- makes total sense. I'm probably about 6 months to a year out on my next speakers so I have some time. Not to hijack this thread, but I finally just got my Line Magnetic LM-508 integrated back yesterday and hooked up the custom "4.1" speaker cables I had you put together. AMAZING!! Now that I finally have my system back together I'm going to spend some time with it before any more changes, but the X-series is highest on my radar right now.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 10 Nov 2019, 05:24 pm
I mentioned a few days ago that, when I have time later this week, I'll do my best to describe the sound we were getting in Room 526 at Capital AudioFest.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200613)


The digital source (Innuos server to Lampizator Amber 3 DAC), was good enough that I didn't pick up on any sonic signatures. Kind of like the AntiCables interconnects & Speaker Wires in that they did their job and got out of the way for the music to flow. It was a digital source that I could easily live with for many years.

The LTA Z10 Integrated amp was typical of the Linear Tube Audio's offerings, in that it combines the best aspects of tubes (palatable presence, great harmonic structure, sweet highs), with the best aspects of SS (low distortion, firm control). The 10 watt per channel was enough power for typical audiophile listening levels.

The new M3 Sapphire speakers were a bit unreal in their two strongest abilities, which I think were midrange resolution and bass:

1) Bass: These OB speakers had the bass weight of a ported box speaker (which usually requires a powered woofer with eq with OB designs), yet did so passively, and of course with no box sound. Usually with a passive OB speaker, one is willing to forgive not getting the bottom end bass weight, for acquiring open tuneful bass. With these you get both. Quite amazing.

2) Midrange: The very first thing that came to mind to me when I first heard the M3 Sapphire speakers, was horn like resolution. Chuck Bottemiller is one of AntiCables design partners. He is a highly talented engineer with skill sets in many aspects of audio, including speaker design. For years, Chuck's system has been my place to go for a sanity check. His system is so resolving, I often go there to take a second listen of what ever I working on. His speakers use the TAD TD-2001 beryllium compression driver into a constant directionality horn from 1kHz on up. I have a hard time thinking of another speaker I've heard that is able to resolve low level information in the midrange better than these. I have to say the M3 Sapphire speakers sounded closer in the midrange to the horn loaded TAD than any other I can think of. Very nice!

Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

It is interesting that before you posted this on the same day I was on the phone with Clayton and said the same thing to him about the M3 Sapphire bass.  It has the same weight or punch of a good box speaker but without the box distortions.  It can be warm, full, voluptuous, enveloping, chest thumping, or tight and detailed.  Whatever the music calls for. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 10 Nov 2019, 05:39 pm
Thought you all would like to see a pic of the Sapphire dome with the metal grill removed.  The grill is held on magnetically tight.  Use something like a paperclip and put in one of the holes to pull it off.  Be careful not to poke the driver.  Not difficult to remove or replace.  Clayton told me that measurements do not reveal any difference with the grill on or off.  Can't say that I can notice any difference in sound quality so will be leaving my grills on.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200689)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200690)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200691)

In case any were wondering the black plate around the dome is metal.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: PS on 10 Nov 2019, 11:28 pm
@Ric Shultz
Ric, why did you suggest trying felt around the tweeter? Do you think it needs "taming?"

I've not heard the M4 nor the newer models but I am interested in Clayton's speakers for my small, dedicated music room.  The reviews are so positive.  :)

Thanks.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 11 Nov 2019, 01:13 am
You might try and like some felt around the tweeter.....a ring completely covering the baffle of the tweeter and right up next to the grill.......However, covering the entire top of the speaker above the woofers would probably improve it even more......I know, would not look good.  Very cheap to try....use real woof felt....you only need to use the thin stuff you can buy at any yardage store.  If the felt is too thick it may limit the dispersion of the tweeter.

I actually though of this before the speakers ever arrived at my home.  However I am enjoying them so much as is that it will be a while before I do anything like that if at all.  Much of the black plate around the tweeter is strongly magnetized.  There must be a wide round magnet behind the tweeter and plate.  In the future I may take some black felt and put it around the tweeter on the black plate only.  Would attach the felt magnetically so it could easily be removed with no harm to the plate.  Would not put anything on the wood finish because it is beautiful and already sounds beautiful.  Perhaps Clayton can chime in on this?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 11 Nov 2019, 01:21 am
@Ric Shultz
Ric, why did you suggest trying felt around the tweeter? Do you think it needs "taming?"

I've not heard the M4 nor the newer models but I am interested in Clayton's speakers for my small, dedicated music room.  The reviews are so positive.  :)

Thanks.

In my opinion is does not need taming.  But many DIY and speaker companies use felt around the tweeter to improve imaging not to tame tweeter.

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 11 Nov 2019, 01:28 am
You might try and like some felt around the tweeter.....a ring completely covering the baffle of the tweeter and right up next to the grill.......However, covering the entire top of the speaker above the woofers would probably improve it even more......I know, would not look good.  Very cheap to try....use real woof felt....you only need to use the thin stuff you can buy at any yardage store.  If the felt is too thick it may limit the dispersion of the tweeter.

There could be a minor improvement, but not worth ruining the look of the speaker. Rick forgets that modifications to our products may void the warranty. We spend a lot of time and money developing our products and usually try any number of tweeks, so its not like we didn't think of this. Ric - are you willing to cover the costs of problems that your tweeks (major tweeks like structural or electrical) could cause my customers? How are they to know they will work anyway? How about the impact on resale value?  You are just guessing since you don't own a pair of M3 Sapphires. I would prefer that you experiment on your own speakers, rather than others that have ponied up to buy them. You have been suggesting tweeks on my products for many years now - most of which are in no way approved by Spatial.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: PS on 11 Nov 2019, 03:44 am
Thank you very much for your illuminating post, Clayton. Now I understand.  :)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: rollo on 11 Nov 2019, 01:56 pm
  As the Beatles said "Let it Be". They sound marvelous as is.

charles
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: ric on 11 Nov 2019, 02:52 pm
I don't know Clayton, I think Mr. Schultz is commenting on taming tweeter sounds in general, and if for some reason (a poor amplifier) someone WANTS to try an alternative (felt) that costs very little and does it in a way that does not damage the speaker except to make it look bad AND it can be removed, then no harm done.
I would not take this as an affront to your product, as much as it's a potential solution to problems that many tweeters have. My (previous) Dunlavy's were treated with felt by Mr. Dunlavy for the reasons Mr. Schultz has given, and you're right, listen to the speakers first then make a decision. And judging from your tweeter choice and what you have said, the problem would likely NOT be the tweeter.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tyson on 11 Nov 2019, 03:33 pm
Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 11 Nov 2019, 03:49 pm
I don't know Clayton, I think Mr. Schultz is commenting on taming tweeter sounds in general, and if for some reason (a poor amplifier) someone WANTS to try an alternative (felt) that costs very little and does it in a way that does not damage the speaker except to make it look bad AND it can be removed, then no harm done.
I would not take this as an affront to your product, as much as it's a potential solution to problems that many tweeters have. My (previous) Dunlavy's were treated with felt by Mr. Dunlavy for the reasons Mr. Schultz has given, and you're right, listen to the speakers first then make a decision. And judging from your tweeter choice and what you have said, the problem would likely NOT be the tweeter.

Yes - I agree. The tweeter foam idea is a low risk, easy tweek to do. My point was that Schultz, having an old pair of my speakers, often suggests tweek ideas that my customers should try without knowing the actual effect on my newer designs. He often describes minor changes as a "HUGE" improvement to the sound. This is not helpful and may confuse readers. He offers no scientific support for his assertions. I cannot recall any measurements in frequency response, time domain, vibration measurements for example. Just unsupported statements that are presented as facts. I am always open to new ways to improve products, but we follow a procedural approach to performance improvements that guarantee repeatable results based on testing and listening sessions.

Clayton
Spatial Audio Lab
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 11 Nov 2019, 06:24 pm
Another interesting writeup on the LTA/Spatial/et al room.  Lots of good pictures here:

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/11/10/spatial-audio-lta-lampizator-anticables-caf-2019/

I see a post in the comments already about the M3's sounding great.  I personally find it surprising that the low wattage LTA drives the M3 Sapphires so good but they must based on the numerous reports of the excellent sound in the room.  I know my 60 wpc Ragnarok drives them fully and effortlessly.  Will consider an LTA offering down the road.  As of now upgrades are the last thing on my mind.  Just can't wait to get home from work so I can play my Sapphires.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Wind Chaser on 11 Nov 2019, 08:37 pm
Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

Like diffraction perhaps?  :wink:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: happyrabbit on 11 Nov 2019, 09:42 pm
Question : is the full range driver sealed or dipole ?

Thanks 🙏
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 11 Nov 2019, 09:56 pm
Question : is the full range driver sealed or dipole ?

Thanks 🙏
Its not a dipole driver.  Not sure what you mean by sealed but there is no cabinet.  But you can't see backside of the driver like you can the woofers.  I think this pic will help:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200748)

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: ric on 12 Nov 2019, 03:18 pm
Fact: no speaker manufacturer wants to be told how to improve his product any more than I as a carpenter wanted anyone to tell me how to do my job.
Fact: Mr. Schultz' tweeks work as I DO use his products AND have applied his tweeks....
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 12 Nov 2019, 03:42 pm
Capfest Awards came out this morning from AVshowrooms


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200771)

Spatial Audio, Linear Tube Audio and Lampizator Capfest Room 526
Clayton Shaw of Spatial Audio debuts the M3 Sapphire loudspeaker and talks in detail about his new product in the AVShowrooms’ video. Also, Fred Ainsley, describes the new Lampizator Amber 3 DAC that includes technology from its pricier siblings. Mark Schneider, founder of Linear Tube Audio, impresses us with the Integrated Z10 amplifier that includes a David Berning-designed preamplifier. This entire system is just under $10,000 and punches way beyond that price point and I mean way beyond. This is one of the best systems I’ve heard at a show this year. We played a track from Musica Nuda and the bass was perfectly natural and perfectly integrated with the rest of the frequency response. Lightning-fast transient response delivered a natural and emotionally engaging sound. Audience Audio supplied the power conditioner and cabling was by Anticable. Innuos was the server.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 12 Nov 2019, 04:08 pm
Congrats Clayton!

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 12 Nov 2019, 04:10 pm
Fact: no speaker manufacturer wants to be told how to improve his product any more than I as a carpenter wanted anyone to tell me how to do my job.
Fact: Mr. Schultz' tweeks work as I DO use his products AND have applied his tweeks....

I'm not really sure you can say the second bullet is a Fact. All tweaks are subjective, therefore is is up to the listener to determine the benefit. Therefore, not a fact IMHO..........
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: rockadanny on 12 Nov 2019, 05:20 pm
Quote
I have never seen a product I could not improve in a few minutes of tweaking


IMO, offering a solution in search of a problem (as a previous poster deftly put it) especially when unsolicited (not one person asked for any solutions or tweaks, although even if asked) in a manufacturer thread announcing a new product is in poor taste, regardless of intent. IMO, if you want to discuss a generic solution to all tweeters, then create a thread in another circle such as The Lab or Open Baffles or whatever.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: RonN5 on 12 Nov 2019, 05:42 pm


IMO, offering a solution in search of a problem (as a previous poster deftly put it) especially when unsolicited (not one person asked for any solutions or tweaks, although even if asked) in a manufacturer thread announcing a new product is in poor taste, regardless of intent. IMO, if you want to discuss a generic solution to all tweeters, then create a thread in another circle such as The Lab or Open Baffles or whatever.

+1
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: mreeter on 12 Nov 2019, 07:16 pm
Capfest Awards came out this morning from AVshowrooms


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200771)

Spatial Audio, Linear Tube Audio and Lampizator Capfest Room 526
Clayton Shaw of Spatial Audio debuts the M3 Sapphire loudspeaker and talks in detail about his new product in the AVShowrooms’ video. Also, Fred Ainsley, describes the new Lampizator Amber 3 DAC that includes technology from its pricier siblings. Mark Schneider, founder of Linear Tube Audio, impresses us with the Integrated Z10 amplifier that includes a David Berning-designed preamplifier. This entire system is just under $10,000 and punches way beyond that price point and I mean way beyond. This is one of the best systems I’ve heard at a show this year. We played a track from Musica Nuda and the bass was perfectly natural and perfectly integrated with the rest of the frequency response. Lightning-fast transient response delivered a natural and emotionally engaging sound. Audience Audio supplied the power conditioner and cabling was by Anticable. Innuos was the server.

Mr. Shaw, Congratulations on winning such a coveted Award! I have recently placed an order for a Lampi Amber 3 and I'm patiently awaiting it's arrival.

Your new Sapphire offerings are making the hair on the back of my neck tingle, I'm certainly going to have to get my ears on a pair one day.

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tave5 on 13 Nov 2019, 03:35 am
I bought M4 Turbo S and liked them so much that a few weeks later upgraded to the Triode Master 3s.  My other speakers are Quad 57s - Tonian TL-P1 Mk3 - Viking Acoustic Instrumental and a pair of Full Range Single Drivers made by John Kalinowski.  Claytons room was one of the first I hit as there was buzz in the halls about them.  I can’t say in my time exactly the differences between my TM3 and the new M3 Sapphire but it seemed to go deeper and the imaging was spectacular.  It just was so open and musical and loved the way the the music breathed into the room.  It was one of the best rooms at the show w/ Signal Cables - LTA EL84 Amp - Lampizator Dac and Innuous Server.  The Price Point that Clayton has the Saphires is way to low but don’t tell him:)

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: RonN5 on 13 Nov 2019, 04:08 am
I’d like to hear some comments from those that have heard the new M’s about their tone.  Describe the accuracy/pitch/realism of how they do piano, saxophone, trumpet, acoustic guitar, snare drum, cymbals.  I’ve always found that these are hard to get right and the speakers that do usually do a lot of other things right as well.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Dr.J on 13 Nov 2019, 04:34 pm
Greetings everyone. I'm intrigued by all I've read, regarding Clayton's new M3 Sapphire, so much so, that after 40 years of listening to my DQ-10's, I'm actually entertaining the possibility of replacing them. However, I suffer from tinnitus and listen typically in the 40 db range, peaks around 60db. Every speaker, system, setup has a volumetric sweet spot - what are the chances that the new M3 Sapphires sound great at these low volume listening levels - does anyone know?

Thanks,

John
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 13 Nov 2019, 05:09 pm
I’d like to hear some comments from those that have heard the new M’s about their tone.  Describe the accuracy/pitch/realism of how they do piano, saxophone, trumpet, acoustic guitar, snare drum, cymbals.  I’ve always found that these are hard to get right and the speakers that do usually do a lot of other things right as well.

This question seems like something I would ask.  A lot of what I listen to is acoustically recorded chamber music.  Lots of early music, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and even some modern.  I also love lute and classical guitar music.  These are the hardest things for a system to convincingly reproduce.  This almost led me to purchase Magnepan 1.7i with a JL E112 subwoofer.  But I also love classic and progressive rock and the 1.7i just did not have the bass and mid bass authority that to me was mandatory.  So I auditioned the M3TM hoping to get a speaker that could do both and I kept them because they did.  The M3TM’s tone, openness, and imaging works so well with chamber music and orchestra I ended up adding lots more of it to my collection.  The dynamics with orchestra were so good and brass so much less offensive that I bought most of the Telarc Erich Kunzel Cincinnati Pops recordings.

Now just before I got the M3 Sapphires I was listening to lot’s of Monteverdi on the M3TM.  I have grown to love Monteverdi Madrigals.  After about an hour into listening to the M3 Sapphires I played some Monteverdi and the tone was off being too thin lacking fullness.  Same with piano music.  Bear in mind that this is 1-2 hours after unboxing the M3 Sapphires and this is way too early to make determinations.  I then started pumping brown noise into them while at work every day.  Also did pink noise.  It took about 25-30 hours of break-in for the mid/tweeter to sound natural.  And once it did I was very impressed with the integration between the upper mids of the tweeter and the lower mids from the 15” woofers.  Started playing Nojima Liszt Reference Recording on vinyl and it sounded amazing.  Yes the tonality is different than the M3TM but considering all the extra high frequency detail and the release of upper harmonics it is bound to.  I also understand now that the lower midrange on the M3TM is a little warm or wooly.  Lower midrange on the M3 Sapphires is cleaner with more detail and insight.  And when Nojima really gets pounding the dynamic expression with the lack of crossover can be startling.  Like a quality automobile when you think you are going 50mph but actually going 100.  Now about a 1.5 weeks into break-in I revisited Monteverdi on the Sapphires and things were much different.  It now sounded beautiful.  Voices now had proper fullness and the instruments sounded as natural as I remember on the M3TM.  But the sound field of the voices was much better along with the acoustic space around each voice.  The organ and bass viol during the chorus had more detail, impact, and fullness broadening the stage.  All this with the improvement in stage height make for a more enveloping sound field.  And the dynamics with the vocalist, like the Nojima piano, can be startling.  This adds an emotional element.  My love for Monteverdi Madrigals has now increased with the Sapphires.  I have ordered Book 6 and Book 7 since I purchased the Sapphires and want to order more.  And by the way I am also actively purchasing more progressive rock.  I listened to the new Tool album and the song Chocolate Chip Trip and it left me flabbergasted with the Sapphires.  Sound was coming at me from the walls to the side and behind me (no exaggeration).  Have never heard a recording create a stage like that.  Goes to show that soundstage is primarily driven by the recording engineer.

So in Summary yes the Sapphires have very good tone and timbre but it will it not be the same as what you are used to with the M3TM.  The Sapphires are a much different speaker in my opinion.  I think the extension in the highs is the biggest reason for the change vs. the M3TM.  Also what I perceive is a more linear or less plump lower midrange contributes as well.  I think the new woofers are just faster and do better at its higher frequencies.  The tone and timbre on the bass overall is a big improvement IMO.  The treble on the Sapphires is not as sweet (wet) as the M3TM.  It is not dry either but to me neutral on the wet vs dry spectrum.  And that aspect of tone will depend on your components. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 13 Nov 2019, 05:30 pm
All good feed back. I hope my M5's ship this week.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: PS on 13 Nov 2019, 05:48 pm
@SnowPuppy77

Thanks so much, for your detailed and extremely helpful post.  :)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 13 Nov 2019, 07:40 pm
All good feed back. I hope my M5's ship this week.

Looking forward to hearing more about the M5.  I know there are plenty of good ways to break a speaker in.  I find this to be particularly effective.  And when I close the door to the room it seems to be less intrusive to others in the house since it is more like background noise:

https://www.musicdirect.com/recommended-gifts-under-50/cardas-ayre-acoustics-irrational-but-efficacious-ibe-burn-in-cd

Read about all the tracks.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 14 Nov 2019, 01:10 pm
Thanks, on order.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: dvdboulet on 14 Nov 2019, 01:35 pm
Hi all,

I'm new to the forum (first post :) )... I attended CAF the other weekend and was astounded by the sound coming out of the room with the Sapphire M3s... open, airy, natural, extended, and bass that was realistic and palpable. I'm on a mission to audition speakers over the coming months as I save towards my next purchase... and I'm wondering if anyone in the Washington DC area has the Sapphire M3s and would be willing to host a listening session? Or any advice on where to audition them in driving distance? Thanks!

-Dave
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: aniwolfe on 14 Nov 2019, 06:25 pm
DVD

Try this thread https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=144142.0
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: KLH007 on 14 Nov 2019, 06:31 pm
dvdboulet, Linear Tube Audio has some Spatials on display in their shop in Takoma Park, MD. Link;  https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 14 Nov 2019, 07:09 pm
Hi all,

I'm new to the forum (first post :) )... I attended CAF the other weekend and was astounded by the sound coming out of the room with the Sapphire M3s... open, airy, natural, extended, and bass that was realistic and palpable. I'm on a mission to audition speakers over the coming months as I save towards my next purchase... and I'm wondering if anyone in the Washington DC area has the Sapphire M3s and would be willing to host a listening session? Or any advice on where to audition them in driving distance? Thanks!

-Dave

You might be the one I replied to on Agon, but I have a pair of X3s about 3.5 hours from DC. Happy to demo.

Shakey

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 16 Nov 2019, 03:43 am
Another good review from CAF:

https://audio-head.com/spatial-audio-debuts-m3-sapphire-alongside-linear-tube-audio-lampizator-innuos-and-anticables-caf-2019/
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 16 Nov 2019, 06:02 am
Another good review from CAF:

https://audio-head.com/spatial-audio-debuts-m3-sapphire-alongside-linear-tube-audio-lampizator-innuos-and-anticables-caf-2019/

Herb Reichert can't un-hear the M3 Sapphires at CAF. He was a little shell-shocked and wanted to know more about how they work. OB is quickly going mainstream - Finally!

Clayton


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200925)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: bobh123 on 19 Nov 2019, 05:16 am
I see Clayton and Snow Puppy mention 25 to 100 hours of break-in time.  I've had my M3 Sapphires less than a week so am ramping up hours. 

What SPL do you find is appropriate for this early time? 

Thx, Bob

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 19 Nov 2019, 08:40 am
I think any SPL you like (within reason) is fine. Speakers aren’t like cars, you don’t  need to baby them during break in. They will certainly sound better the more hours they have until they have fully reached their potential. Of course higher SPLs will accelerate this process.

Just listen and enjoy. My X3s sounded good out of the box, more time was just the icing.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 19 Nov 2019, 12:13 pm
I see Clayton and Snow Puppy mention 25 to 100 hours of break-in time.  I've had my M3 Sapphires less than a week so am ramping up hours. 

What SPL do you find is appropriate for this early time? 

Thx, Bob
I second what Shakeydeal said.  Does not need to be loud for break-in but may take longer which is fine.  Do what you can.  I did not do mine super loud while at work because I did not want to bother people at home during the day. So I used moderate to moderately loud volumes of brown and pink noise.  Highs and midrange will become more natural and imaging will improve.  While the bass was impactful at the start on mine I noticed after a little more than a week a significant increase in bass authority.

What finish did you get?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: bobh123 on 20 Nov 2019, 06:19 am
Thanks for the break-in tips.  Will run them when the dog and others are not at home

I bought the walnut finish mainly chosen because we have walnut floors.  The M3S walnut finish is very subtle.  Our floors have a wide variation of textures and colors so the sapele would have also worked.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201151)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 20 Nov 2019, 12:12 pm
Thanks for the break-in tips.  Will run them when the dog and others are not at home

I bought the walnut finish mainly chosen because we have walnut floors.  The M3S walnut finish is very subtle.  Our floors have a wide variation of textures and colors so the sapele would have also worked.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201151)
Thank you for the pic.  Your M3 Sapphires are beautiful.  Have fun getting to know them.  By the way I think I see an acoustic panel in the background?  I have a 2" ATS acoustic panels behind each of my Sapphires.  Improves bass impact and detail some.  You can see in one of my previous pics.  I now have it vertical vs. horizontal like I had them on the M3TM.  Not sure yet if I will keep vertical or horizontal.  For now I do not have an urge to switch back from vertical to horizontal.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 20 Nov 2019, 01:41 pm
  By the way I think I see an acoustic panel in the background?  I have a 2" ATS acoustic panels behind each of my Sapphires.  Improves bass impact and detail some.  You can see in one of my previous pics.  I now have it vertical vs. horizontal like I had them on the M3TM.  Not sure yet if I will keep vertical or horizontal.  For now, I do not have an urge to switch back from vertical to horizontal.
Curious about the type of ATS panels you are using. Advantages of Diffusers vs Absorbers vs  Diffuser/Absorption combos? Never had an open baffle speaker and saw something on YTube about putting diffusers behind them? Is this another try and see what works situation? 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 20 Nov 2019, 03:37 pm
Curious about the type of ATS panels you are using. Advantages of Diffusers vs Absorbers vs  Diffuser/Absorption combos? Never had an open baffle speaker and saw something on YTube about putting diffusers behind them? Is this another try and see what works situation?
Please take this with a grain of salt because I still have a lot to learn when it comes to room acoustics.  But I am convinced that setup and room treatment are very important for getting the best out of our equipment.

With open baffle speakers if you get too close to the front wall, reflections will do a phase cancellation on the forward firing bass.  With a box speakers bass gets reinforced as they get closer to the front wall.  With open baffle pulling further out from the front wall increases bass to a point.  An acoustic panel behind an open baffle speaker can mimic how it would perform in a large room further away from walls.  Clayton recommended this for the M3TM in the horizontal position behind the lower woofer and it was an improvement for me.  Did not want to put an absorber directly behind the dipolar compression driver because I wanted those reflections and a more lively sound from them.  That is not as much of a concern with the Sapphires since the mid/tweeter is not dipolar.  That is why I am trying them vertically.  Look at pics at the Spatial Sapphires Room at CAF 2019 and you will notice some acoustic panels behind the Spatials.  Also without controlled directivity as I had with the M3TM room treatment is more of a priority.  Fortunately my room works well with the wider dispersion of the Sapphires mid/tweeter.  That is because I have a large roll top desk that acts as a diffuser at the reflection point on the left and an open space to the right.

Absorption panels can sometimes cause dead sound if too much absorption is used in a small room. Diffusion on the other hand, adds a sense of spaciousness and retains the room’s natural ambiance while still keeping reflections from interfering with the clarity of the sound coming directly from the speakers at it hits your ear.  So if you want a lively spacious sound then diffusers help keep that and without reflection interference.  If your room is too lively then absorption panels can be added.  Bass traps are absorption panels for example.  Absorption panels can be designed to absorb some frequencies while reflecting others.  That is why sometimes you see a hybrid absorption panel that also diffuses.  So depends on your room, speaker, and what you are after when it comes to room treatments. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: dvdboulet on 24 Nov 2019, 02:08 pm
You might be the one I replied to on Agon, but I have a pair of X3s about 3.5 hours from DC. Happy to demo.

Shakey

Thanks Shakey!

Yes... that's me on Agon too. Much appreciated. As I get funds (hopefully the first half in 2020) to upgrade my speakers, you might hear from me if my budget is able to extend to the X3s. Question for you... did you audition/compare against the M3s as well? Or just go straight to the X3? Thanks!

-Dave
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 24 Nov 2019, 03:35 pm
Dave,

I have never heard any other spatial speakers. I bought the X3s blind and couldn’t be happier.

Shakey


Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Audiosaurusrex on 24 Nov 2019, 06:54 pm
How far apart should I start with the placement of my M3’s when I get them? Here is my current setup with my Vandys.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201319)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 25 Nov 2019, 02:45 am
How far apart should I start with the placement of my M3’s when I get them? Here is my current setup with my Vandys.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201319)

The front of the M3 Sapphire baffle should be at least 30" out from the front wall.  Mine are closer to 41" from font wall.  I also have a slight toe in.  Your distance from the side walls is probably fine. Mine are not close to the side walls so perhaps other could comment on open baffle interaction with side walls.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: bobh123 on 25 Nov 2019, 06:12 am
Thank you for the pic.  Your M3 Sapphires are beautiful.  Have fun getting to know them.  By the way I think I see an acoustic panel in the background?  I have a 2" ATS acoustic panels behind each of my Sapphires.  Improves bass impact and detail some.  You can see in one of my previous pics.  I now have it vertical vs. horizontal like I had them on the M3TM.  Not sure yet if I will keep vertical or horizontal.  For now I do not have an urge to switch back from vertical to horizontal.
I really like the simple yet elegant look of the M3's.  I'm experimenting with room treatment, starting with moderate density foam panels for selected wall locations and triangular blocks for the corners.  Starting to analyze with freq & impulse responses to hone placement; lots to learn.  Thx for the tip on ATS panels; will consider those if the foam is insufficient.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: aniwolfe on 28 Nov 2019, 01:35 am
Anticipating the arrival of my Sapphires I wanted to get a visual of what they would look like in White. So here is my quick Photo-shopped version. Not sure the exact shade of gray for the grills, could be darker or lighter.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201432)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201435)

 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: heywaj10 on 28 Nov 2019, 05:24 pm
Anticipating the arrival of my Sapphires I wanted to get a visual of what they would look like in White. So here is my quick Photo-shopped version. Not sure the exact shade of gray for the grills, could be darker or lighter.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201432)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201435)

Ooooh....those look fantastic!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 28 Nov 2019, 05:56 pm
Hi guys,

I'm new to audiocircle and have an order in for the M5s.  Has anyone here received theirs and are you willing to post about them yet?  Not finding much.  Please direct me to the right place if I'm mistaken.

I have an 11 by 13 dedicated listening room/office.  Am hoping these will do the trick and that the muddiness of my current speakers aren't simply an inherent limitation of my listening environment.  Enjoy jazz, rock, bluegrass, but am especially hoping to hear classical orchestral works, e.g., the BSO's stunning recent rendition of Shostakovich's 10th come alive.

Thanks!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 30 Nov 2019, 05:17 pm
Aniwolfe,

I'm looking forward to my M3 Sapphires arriving as well. I didn't know they are available in white. I suppose Clayton is doing that as a custom color for you.

I originally ordered mine in Walnut, but changed it to Sepele with dark walnut stain after getting back from Capital AudioFest.

Hopefully mine will ship soon. Once they are broken-in, everyone is welcome to come over to listen to them. I'm in the Twin Cities MN.

Thanks!

: )

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 30 Nov 2019, 08:57 pm
Hi guys,

I'm new to audiocircle and have an order in for the M5s.  Has anyone here received theirs and are you willing to post about them yet?  Not finding much.  Please direct me to the right place if I'm mistaken.

I have an 11 by 13 dedicated listening room/office.  Am hoping these will do the trick and that the muddiness of my current speakers aren't simply an inherent limitation of my listening environment.  Enjoy jazz, rock, bluegrass, but am especially hoping to here classical orchestral works, e.g., the BSO's stunning recent rendition of Shostakovich's 10th come alive.

Thanks!

My room generates a lot of bass bloat with box speakers.  My previous box speakers, Paradigm Studio 100v.2 do not have bloated bass in the right room but they do in my current room.  When I switched to open baffle the bloat and muddiness in the bass went away.  I believe you will experience a significant improvement in bass.  I just played the original Brubeck Time Out Analog Productions 45 rpm vinyl with my Dad and he thought it sounded great.  It does sound excellent.  Then we played Analog Productions Ray Brown Trio Soular Energy and it sounded excellent.  That Ray Brown Trio LP is pretty bass heavy and it sounded tight and clear on the M3S while still retaining a nice voluptuous warmth.  I think your M5S will deliver that as well.  The piano on the Ray Brown Trio is amazingly clear making you very cognizant that it is a percussion instrument.  Dynamics shifts a very nicely resolved.  When the high keys are slammed in a trill it really pops out into the room
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 30 Nov 2019, 09:16 pm
Aniwolfe,

I'm looking forward to my M3 Sapphires arriving as well. I didn't know they are available in white. I suppose Clayton is doing that as a custom color for you.

I originally ordered mine in Walnut, but changed it to Sepele with dark walnut stain after getting back from Capital AudioFest.

Hopefully mine will ship soon. Once they are broken-in, everyone is welcome to come over to listen to them. I'm in the Twin Cities MN.

Thanks!

: )

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Paul, 

White, black, and red are all options on the drop down menu in the Spatial Store along with the 3 wood choices.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Audiosaurusrex on 30 Nov 2019, 09:28 pm
Aniwolfe,

I'm looking forward to my M3 Sapphires arriving as well. I didn't know they are available in white. I suppose Clayton is doing that as a custom color for you.

I originally ordered mine in Walnut, but changed it to Sepele with dark walnut stain after getting back from Capital AudioFest.

Hopefully mine will ship soon. Once they are broken-in, everyone is welcome to come over to listen to them. I'm in the Twin Cities MN.

Thanks!

: )

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Paul,
I have the same color on order. I’m sure you’ll get yours before me  :cry: I sent you an email about your anticables but with the holidays you probably haven’t gotten to it.
Looking to do the Biwire shotgun as you suggested.
Thanks
René
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 30 Nov 2019, 10:16 pm
Don_S,   

Thanks for letting us know. Since the M3 Sapphire web page only says "Finish: Choice of real wood veneers - Walnut, Sepele, and Maple", I bet a lot of people don't know they are also available in White, Black, and Red. Cool!



Audiosaurusrex,

Yep, I'm a bit behind on emails. Judy and I headed out to have dinner with friends. I'll do my best to get to my emails tomorrow morning.


Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Audiosaurusrex on 30 Nov 2019, 10:31 pm
Don_S,   

Thanks for letting us know. Since the M3 Sapphire web page only says "Finish: Choice of real wood veneers - Walnut, Sepele, and Maple", I bet a lot of people don't know they are also available in White, Black, and Red. Cool!



Audiosaurusrex,

Yep, I'm a bit behind on emails. Judy and I headed out to have dinner with friends. I'll do my best to get to my emails tomorrow morning.


Thanks!

Paul Speltz
(AntiCables)

Absolutely Paul Enjoy!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 1 Dec 2019, 05:24 pm
Audiosaurusrex / René,

Thinking that others may benefit from your email questions to me, I decided to answer them here, especially since you mentioned it here yesterday.

M3 / M5 Turbo S and Triode Master speakers:

With Spatial's Turbo S and Triode Master speakers, Clayton and I have always run AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires at every audio show we have done. We are very good at being able to put together a demo room that sounds better than the majority, while being one of the least expensive at the show. A tough act to pull off. With this goal in mind, we don't even consider dropping AntiCables Level 5 or Level 6 Speaker Wires into the system.  But...

When running the M3 Triode Master speakers in my home, I am free to use whatever speaker wires I want, so for quite a while I ran Level 6, just because I could. About a month ago, I decided to experiment with speaker wires, because I was getting the feeling there was not good synergy between the Level 6 and the M3TM. I tried a pair of my AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires, and liked them better. Cool!

I think the Level 6 Speaker Wires being more resolving didn't work well with the Triode Master's high frequencies signature. I am not pointing fingers at the Triode Master speakers, as all high frequency drivers have a signature (a sound of their own that is not part of the music). The great thing discovered is that the Turbo S and M3 Triode Master speakers actually sound better with the less expensive Level 3.1 Speaker Wires. The politeness of very low dislocation density pure copper wire has good synergy with the older M3 models.


Sapphire Speakers:

At Capital AudioFest 2019 a few weeks ago, Clayton and I again used Level 3.1 Speaker Wires to achieve our goal of great sound for little cost. For anyone buying the new M3 or M5 Sapphire speakers, AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires are highly recommended.  After all, the Level 3.1 / Sapphire combination (along with LTA, LampizatOr, and Innuos electronics), got recognized as a top sounding room by both Stereophile and AVShowrooms.

Even though the Sapphire speakers do not have bi-wire terminals, they can be bi-wires because of these two facts:

1) The Sapphire tweeter is electrically connected directly to the amplifier output (no internal x-over network)

2) The Sapphire tweeter has 4mm Banana Sockets on the back (as you can see in this photo from "SnowPuppy77")


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201546)


Because of this, factory leads can be unplugged and an alternate pair of speaker wires can be directly connected. Beautiful!

From what I heard at CAF, the Sapphire tweeter is higher resolving, has less sonic signatures, and is more extended than earlier M3 models. Because of this, I am expecting the Sapphire HF driver will benefit from the higher resolving Level 5 ACElectrum™ Silver/Gold alloy metallurgy.

When I get my pair of M3 Sapphire speakers, I'm going to simply start with a pair of Level 3.1 Speaker Wires so they are the same as at CAF.

After they are well broken-in, and I am very familiar with the sound, I'll unplug the factory wires out of the tweeter and run Level 5 directly to them, from the amplifier, for highest resolution. The back of the tweeters have Banana plugs, so it is super easy to do this. One just has to be sure that the two unused factory banana plugs don't touch anything (insulated with electrical tape or shrink tubing).

To answer you question about what terminations to order to do this bi-wire configuration, I recommend:

- Level 3.1 Speaker Wires with our optional Bananas on both ends (connect to factory speaker terminals)

- Level 5 Speaker Wires with Spades on the Amplifier ends, and optional Bananas on the Speaker Ends (connect to sapphire tweeter)

Both can be seen here: http://anticables.com/speaker-wires/2-channel

Having one set of speaker wire with spades and the other with bananas, makes it easy to connect both to the same amplifier output terminals.

Hope that helps.

Please ask any questions anyone has about cabling the Spatial speakers, and I'll do my best to answer them as best I can.

Thanks!
Paul Speltz(AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 1 Dec 2019, 05:59 pm
Paul,

Thank you for the detailed analysis. As an option to a complete bi-wiring what do you think of running a different mid/tweeter wire from the Sapphire binding posts to the mid/tweeter input? A compromise to your suggestion but less expensive to experiment with for those who do not get their cables at the super-deep manufacturer's discount.  Wink2 That might be a good option for someone who already has cables they like.

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 1 Dec 2019, 08:12 pm
Audiosaurusrex / René,

Thinking that others may benefit from your email questions to me, I decided to answer them here, especially since you mentioned it here yesterday.

M3 / M5 Turbo S and Triode Master speakers:

With Spatial's Turbo S and Triode Master speakers, Clayton and I have always run AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires at every audio show we have done. We are very good at being able to put together a demo room that sounds better than the majority, while being one of the least expensive at the show. A tough act to pull off. With this goal in mind, we don't even consider dropping AntiCables Level 5 or Level 6 Speaker Wires into the system.  But...

When running the M3 Triode Master speakers in my home, I am free to use whatever speaker wires I want, so for quite a while I ran Level 6, just because I could. About a month ago, I decided to experiment with speaker wires, because I was getting the feeling there was not good synergy between the Level 6 and the M3TM. I tried a pair of my AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires, and liked them better. Cool!

I think the Level 6 Speaker Wires being more resolving didn't work well with the Triode Master's high frequencies signature. I am not pointing fingers at the Triode Master speakers, as all high frequency drivers have a signature (a sound of their own that is not part of the music). The great thing discovered is that the Turbo S and M3 Triode Master speakers actually sound better with the less expensive Level 3.1 Speaker Wires. The politeness of very low dislocation density pure copper wire has good synergy with the older M3 models.


Sapphire Speakers:

At Capital AudioFest 2019 a few weeks ago, Clayton and I again used Level 3.1 Speaker Wires to achieve our goal of great sound for little cost. For anyone buying the new M3 or M5 Sapphire speakers, AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires are highly recommended.  After all, the Level 3.1 / Sapphire combination (along with LTA, LampizatOr, and Innuos electronics), got recognized as a top sounding room by both Stereophile and AVShowrooms.

Even though the Sapphire speakers do not have bi-wire terminals, they can be bi-wires because of these two facts:

1) The Sapphire tweeter is electrically connected directly to the amplifier output (no internal x-over network)

2) The Sapphire tweeter has 4mm Banana Sockets on the back (as you can see in this photo from "SnowPuppy77")


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201546)


Because of this, factory leads can be unplugged and an alternate pair of speaker wires can be directly connected. Beautiful!

From what I heard at CAF, the Sapphire tweeter is higher resolving, has less sonic signatures, and is more extended than earlier M3 models. Because of this, I am expecting the Sapphire HF driver will benefit from the higher resolving Level 5 ACElectrum™ Silver/Gold alloy metallurgy.

When I get my pair of M3 Sapphire speakers, I'm going to simply start with a pair of Level 3.1 Speaker Wires so they are the same as at CAF.

After they are well broken-in, and I am very familiar with the sound, I'll unplug the factory wires out of the tweeter and run Level 5 directly to them, from the amplifier, for highest resolution. The back of the tweeters have Banana plugs, so it is super easy to do this. One just has to be sure that the two unused factory banana plugs don't touch anything (insulated with electrical tape or shrink tubing).

To answer you question about what terminations to order to do this bi-wire configuration, I recommend:

- Level 3.1 Speaker Wires with our optional Bananas on both ends (connect to factory speaker terminals)

- Level 5 Speaker Wires with Spades on the Amplifier ends, and optional Bananas on the Speaker Ends (connect to sapphire tweeter)

Both can be seen here: http://anticables.com/speaker-wires/2-channel

Having one set of speaker wire with spades and the other with bananas, makes it easy to connect both to the same amplifier output terminals.

Hope that helps.

Please ask any questions anyone has about cabling the Spatial speakers, and I'll do my best to answer them as best I can.

Thanks!
Paul Speltz(AntiCables)

Really enjoyed this post Paul.  Very curious to hear how you come to your preferred cabling for the M3S.  Hoping to do some things with cables this summer.

Regarding tone.  With the M3TM I really enjoyed Telarc Digital orchestra music from the 80's and even 90's.  To me the brass for the first time sounded enjoyable on the M3TM.  With the M3S I do still enjoy though I remember enjoying specifically the brass section better on the M3TM.  However when I switch over the the best recordings I have like Missing Link 2 Direct to Disc LP and Les Brown and the Band of Renown Direct to Disc LP the brass sounds much better on the M3S than the M3TM.  The Less Brown LP is mostly brass and it is explosively dynamic and illuminated yet very smooth and fatigue free even at high volumes.  The M3TM did not have the detail, stage, lively presence, and natural tone on the Less Brown Direct to Disc LP as the M3S does.  Same with the sax on the Analog Productions Brubeck Timeout LP.  I am coming to the conclusion that the older Telarcs have some inherent flaws of early digital that the M3S exposes and the M3TM forgives.

Another case in point.  My Dad and I listened to a CD of a newly mastered Living Stereo recording of Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition (Fritz Reiner Chicago Symphony Orchestra recorded 1957).  The room had all the lights out except a candle.  We were blown away at how excellent it sounded.  The brass had bite, presence, and explosiveness and we listened to all 33 min at moderately loud volume with no fatigue.  For fun we decided to compare it to a 1979 Telarc Digital version with the Cleveland Orchestra.  While the Telarc version sounded clear it was like monochrome compared to the technicolor of the Living Stereo. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 7 Dec 2019, 01:33 am

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201718)


Hello to all. Had the M3 turbo s and upgraded to the M5s. Speakers are about 9 feet apart and sitting 9 feet away. Toe in for now is roughly 30°.  Just hooked them up Wednesday so they need quite a bit of break in. If the initial performance is any indication —- WOW!  The top end is significantly better than the m3’s without being fatiguing or sibilant.  The bottom end is sufficient from where I sit.  Honestly i had  some remorse initially that I didn’t get the larger M3’s but they would have probably overwhelmed my room. To my ears they are a significant upgrade to the prior M3 turbos which were no slouch.  Congrats Clayton on a truly phenomenal product that needs to be heard to be believed.  I have no desire to upgrade again ( until Clayton comes up with something better ). Also a more customer friendly person you will not find anywhere.  If anyone is on the fence  don’t hesitate to purchase or upgrade. You won’t be disappointed!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 7 Dec 2019, 02:25 am
Looks good. I love that finish. Congrats!

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 7 Dec 2019, 03:04 am
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201718)


Hello to all. Had the M3 turbo s and upgraded to the M5s. Speakers are about 9 feet apart and sitting 9 feet away. Toe in for now is roughly 30°.  Just hooked them up Wednesday so they need quite a bit of break in. If the initial performance is any indication —- WOW!  The top end is significantly better than the m3’s without being fatiguing or sibilant.  The bottom end is sufficient from where I sit.  Honestly i had  some remorse initially that I didn’t get the larger M3’s but they would have probably overwhelmed my room. To my ears they are a significant upgrade to the prior M3 turbos which were no slouch.  Congrats Clayton on a truly phenomenal product that needs to be heard to be believed.  I have no desire to upgrade again ( until Clayton comes up with something better ). Also a more customer friendly person you will not find anywhere.  If anyone is on the fence  don’t hesitate to purchase or upgrade. You won’t be disappointed!

Looks really nice.  Thanks for sharing pics.  I will say that if you play them a lot in a few days you notice a significant break-in with that woofer.  You will get fuller bass.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 7 Dec 2019, 03:35 am
Thanks.  Yes The walnut finish looks great in my room. Inc toe in some more and bass is fuller.  House is empty tonight so I have been cranking Metallica! That should break in those woofers !
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 7 Dec 2019, 04:14 am
Thanks.  Yes The walnut finish looks great in my room. Inc toe in some more and bass is fuller.  House is empty tonight so I have been cranking Metallica! That should break in those woofers !

Your bass may be fuller by reducing phase cancellation from rear reflections from your toe in.  My acoustic panels behind the speakers are making the bass fuller as well.  Thinking of getting another couple of panels (bass traps in this case) from ATS that actually absorb below 100hz but remain reflective in the higher frequencies.  Then I would put the current 2" panels on the wall that is about 2' behind my head and see if there is any benefit there.  If not I will move them to the home theater room as that room is currently too reflective.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 7 Dec 2019, 04:21 am
Thanks.  I have been contemplating adding bass traps as well.  I’m going to break these in for a bit and let them settle.  Then bass traps.  I have 2 in my home theater room that I could always move temporarily
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: mreeter on 7 Dec 2019, 03:09 pm
Jprod, You have very nice place to enjoy your Music, has a warm, comfortable feel to it. Do I see a VPI Prime in the rack coupled to a PSA Phono Pre? What is the associated gear if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 7 Dec 2019, 06:35 pm
I am drooling. They look beautiful. Hopping mine ship next week. I did the walnut with a gray stain. Thanks for the pictures.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 7 Dec 2019, 07:02 pm
Thanks!   It’s my decompression room. It’s quiet comfortable and nicely decorated by my wife.  That’s part of the reason I didn’t push for the large M3’s.  Room is actually quite long. Behind the couch is a foosball table and a full bar area behind that. I only sit and listen critically down there on the couch. 
Gear is as follows
VPI prime with Ortofon 2 m black, vpi sds speed controller, ps Audio stellar phono pre , bel canto eone stream , wyred4sound stpse preamp , parasound a21 amp. Interconnect  cabling is by audio sensibility and speaker wire is clear day Audio double shotgun silver cable ( RIP Paul Laudati.  Another true gem in the audio industry) .  All plugged into an audioquest niagra 1200. 

The stellar pre is unbelievable.  Had a Manley chinook prior to this and it is a significant upgrade.  More detail and 3d. Best audio purchase next to spatial audio gear.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: mreeter on 7 Dec 2019, 07:27 pm
Thanks!   It’s my decompression room. It’s quiet comfortable and nicely decorated by my wife.  That’s part of the reason I didn’t push for the large M3’s.  Room is actually quite long. Behind the couch is a foosball table and a full bar area behind that. I only sit and listen critically down there on the couch. 
Gear is as follows
VPI prime with Ortofon 2 m black, vpi sds speed controller, ps Audio stellar phono pre , bel canto eone stream , wyred4sound stpse preamp , parasound a21 amp. Interconnect  cabling is by audio sensibility and speaker wire is clear day Audio double shotgun silver cable ( RIP Paul Laudati.  Another true gem in the audio industry) .  All plugged into an audioquest niagra 1200. 

The stellar pre is unbelievable.  Had a Manley chinook prior to this and it is a significant upgrade.  More detail and 3d. Best audio purchase next to spatial audio gear.

Nice line-up of the Cast of Characters :wink: I would imagine the A-21 is driving the Spatials with ease :thumb:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 7 Dec 2019, 07:30 pm
Doesn’t break a sweat
Title: M3 Sapphires are on the way
Post by: timing3435 on 11 Dec 2019, 07:24 pm
My M3 Sapphire's are on the way...In Kansas City now headed to Florida.  I cannot wait to get them going. Clayton has been great, as everyone has said, to work with.  A man dedicated to his passion.
 I have a pair of old DCM TimeFrame 1000's to replace. Will keep everyone posted. I am not capable of the in-depth reviews I have seen on these threads but I will give you my best attempts. Regardless, the  DCM TimeFrame 1000's and the Buchardt S400's Special Editions have given me great pleasure. Currently running the S400's. Very good bookshelf speakers and highly regarded at its price point.
 I bought M3 Sapphires based on hearing Youtube videos of the old M3's and said why not. Take a listen to this and look at Clayton's grin after the music. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmZnJC6Zwe0&t=842s ) I put my monies down based on this video, talking to Clayton, not wanting to wait in case the CAF caused a big backorder. How can you lose with a 60-day trial?  I then heard them at CAF and meet Clayton. No going back.  I was very impressed and thought the sound in that room was better than 99% at the show. Nothing came close at the $4200 point. This was later confirmed by written reviews.  So it is now my turn, much to be grateful for. 

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 11 Dec 2019, 07:32 pm
DCM, ahh that brings back memories.

I had a pair of TF400s back in the late 80s. Bought 'em at Circuit City. They were pretty good for the size and what they cost. I enjoyed them for several years.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: glynnw on 11 Dec 2019, 08:25 pm
Noting the similarities in speaker tastes here.  I had DCM QEDs and Time Windows. Some friends in Florida still have the Time Windows.  Now I have M3TMs and X5s on order.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 12 Dec 2019, 01:06 pm
Hey Timing 3435 and Glynnw, were in Florida are you located ? I am in South West... Naples. By the way my M5's will replace a pair of beautiful of Spica TC 50's. I recently liquidated my vintage stuff ( getting old) which included two pair of DCM Time windows. My living room system has a pair of Usher 6371's, seems we all have an attraction to some form of time manipulation/delay.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: glynnw on 12 Dec 2019, 05:05 pm
I lived in the Tampa area when I was there.  And to further the old speaker owning data, I have owned Spica TC-50s, TC-60s and a pair od the subs.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 13 Dec 2019, 01:35 pm
YA HOOO, I just received my bill of landing. Nuff said.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 13 Dec 2019, 04:22 pm
Can someone explain to me why the m5 and m3 on the specs both say 32 hz? Shouldn’t the m3 be lower with the 2 woofers Or is the m3 just more impactful on the low end down to the same frequency?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 13 Dec 2019, 04:44 pm
Can someone explain to me why the m5 and m3 on the specs both say 32 hz? Shouldn’t the m3 be lower with the 2 woofers Or is the m3 just more impactful on the low end down to the same frequency?

The M3 and M5 Sapphire both being rated to 32Hz is correct. Since the 2 woofers are identical, there is an amplitude lift on the M3 (in parallel below 90Hz) over the single woofer of the M5, but the bass cutoff point is the same.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: cordobaman on 13 Dec 2019, 05:02 pm
The M3 and M5 Sapphire both being rated to 32Hz is correct. Since the 2 woofers are identical, there is an amplitude lift on the M3 (in parallel below 90Hz) over the single woofer of the M5, but the bass cutoff point is the same.

Clayton

The "in parallel below 90Hz" statement has me curious. 
With the tweeters being full range down < 500 Hz, at what frequency are the woofers crossed at? 

And I find it amazing that so much information is designed to come out of one tweeter/driver!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 13 Dec 2019, 05:17 pm
The "in parallel below 90Hz" statement has me curious. 
With the tweeters being full range down < 500 Hz, at what frequency are the woofers crossed at? 

And I find it amazing that so much information is designed to come out of one tweeter/driver!

The upper woofer rolls out at 576Hz, while the lower woofer rolls out at 90Hz. So, it is a 2 1/2 way system design.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 13 Dec 2019, 05:32 pm
The M3 and M5 Sapphire both being rated to 32Hz is correct. Since the 2 woofers are identical, there is an amplitude lift on the M3 (in parallel below 90Hz) over the single woofer of the M5, but the bass cutoff point is the same.

Clayton
Thanks Clayton. Practically speaking , the m3 will sound louder in the lower end for a given preamp volume over the m5 or are there any other benefits from the 2 woofer design ? 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tyson on 13 Dec 2019, 05:35 pm
The upper woofer rolls out at 576Hz, while the lower woofer rolls out at 90Hz. So, it is a 2 1/2 way system design.

Clayton

2.5 way designs are an incredibly smart way to deal with baffle step loss. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 13 Dec 2019, 05:48 pm
Thanks Clayton. Practically speaking , the m3 will sound louder in the lower end for a given preamp volume over the m5 or are there any other benefits from the 2 woofer design ?

Yes, it sounds Heftier (audiophile technical term ;) ) in the bass range - and really helps when the volume is turned down. Also provides more thermal dissipation headroom.

Hi Tyson - agreed. The best way to offset dipole losses in a passive OB speaker design from our testing.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 13 Dec 2019, 06:02 pm
Yes, it sounds Heftier (audiophile technical term ;) ) in the bass range - and really helps when the volume is turned down. Also provides more thermal dissipation headroom.

Hi Tyson - agreed. The best way to offset dipole losses in a passive OB speaker design from our testing.
As a  non engineering type this is going over my head ( other than heftier which I understand).  The original post announcing these speakers states that the speakers sound the same other than the bass Is fuller for the m3  ( I’m paraphrasing). Does this initial statement still hold true or have there been additional revelations since full time production has begun for both of these speakers?  Just curious......
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 13 Dec 2019, 09:49 pm
The M3 and M5 Sapphire both being rated to 32Hz is correct. Since the 2 woofers are identical, there is an amplitude lift on the M3 (in parallel below 90Hz) over the single woofer of the M5, but the bass cutoff point is the same.

Clayton


I'm no techie, but have two somewhat technical questions:

1. On the M5s, when you say they go down to 32, does that mean they are more or less flat or that they roll off earlier?  Not a trick or gotcha question, I don't understand how these things are measured in the speaker world.  My little REL T1 subwoofer's only goes down that far, and I'll likely be selling or repurposing it, if the bass is deep and articulate in the M5s in my little 11 by 14 listening room. But I do like a firm foundation, esp. with rich orchestral pieces.

2. Does a small room like mine actually make 1 a moot point?  In other words, even if the M5 goes flat to 32, the room couldn't reproduce it because of sheer physics.  I've tried to read up on this, but get conflicting answers on how room size interacts with long waves of low frequency bass.  Maybe I've never, ever heard 32 with my REL because my room dimensions forbid it?  If so, the M5s won't be able to trick mother nature.

Thanks!

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 14 Dec 2019, 02:53 am
As a  non engineering type this is going over my head ( other than heftier which I understand).  The original post announcing these speakers states that the speakers sound the same other than the bass Is fuller for the m3  ( I’m paraphrasing). Does this initial statement still hold true or have there been additional revelations since full time production has begun for both of these speakers?  Just curious......

The M3 and M5 Sapphire models are indeed the same above about 100Hz. The M3 offers a little more oomph. The M5 is perfect for small rooms and the M3 is recommenced for all larger room applications.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 14 Dec 2019, 01:58 pm
The M3 and M5 Sapphire models are indeed the same above about 100Hz. The M3 offers a little more oomph. The M5 is perfect for small rooms and the M3 is recommenced for all larger room applications.

Clayton
Now that’s something I can understand !  Thanks Clayton as always for your responses and help both on this forum and on the phone.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 14 Dec 2019, 02:55 pm
Now that’s something I can understand !  Thanks Clayton as always for your responses and help both on this forum and on the phone.

jprod:  what’s the approximate size of your nice room?  How is the bass shaping up?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 14 Dec 2019, 03:24 pm
jprod:  what’s the approximate size of your nice room?  How is the bass shaping up?

It’s approximately 16 feet wide by about 30 -35 feet deep. It’s an oddly shaped room with a diagonal gas fireplace on the right side.  I sit about 10 feet back measured from  the speaker. Behind the couch is a table, then a foosball table , bar stools and a bar.  Obviously I never listen anywhere else other than the couch. 

The bass initially doesn’t seem as impactful as my turbo s speakers.  It also seems to drop off at lower volumes compared to the turbo s. However they are new and I have not had proper time to break them in which I’m sure is a factor. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 14 Dec 2019, 03:29 pm
Thanks much.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 14 Dec 2019, 04:28 pm
The upper woofer rolls out at 576Hz, while the lower woofer rolls out at 90Hz. So, it is a 2 1/2 way system design.

Clayton

I am interested in how low you have measured the mid-range/ tweeter down to. Is it actually cut off at the 500Hz or does it go into the 300Hz range? The transition from 300Hz up is my interest ( 300- 5000Hz, mid-range). Are the upper woofer and mid/tweeter carrying the same frequencies? 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 15 Dec 2019, 12:54 am
AVShowrooms sound demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoHakZ7yhvs&t=1s
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 15 Dec 2019, 05:37 am
AVShowrooms sound demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoHakZ7yhvs&t=1s
Thanks for sharing.  The bass sounds great on these even through the video! I am hoping the m5s bass fills out somewhat like the big brothers with more playing time. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Birdbrain on 15 Dec 2019, 11:17 am
AVShowrooms sound demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoHakZ7yhvs&t=1s
That sounds so good through my M3 Triode Masters I think I'll just keep them.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Dec 2019, 01:10 pm
Wow, great demo. I think Clayton going to be busy this year.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Dec 2019, 02:10 pm
Any chance somebody has ordered these in one of the paint options? Just curious if it’s the same sheen as the previous line or is it gloss.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Audiosaurusrex on 15 Dec 2019, 02:31 pm
Clayton told me the paint options are matte.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tomy2Tone on 15 Dec 2019, 02:42 pm
Clayton told me the paint options are matte.

Thank you!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: mreeter on 15 Dec 2019, 03:18 pm
sorry, duplicate post :duh:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: mreeter on 15 Dec 2019, 03:23 pm
AVShowrooms sound demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoHakZ7yhvs&t=1s

I've had the Lampizator Amber 3 (the DAC used in this Video) for around a month now, it's a stellar piece.

I hope to own a pair of the M3's one day as well.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: nicoch on 15 Dec 2019, 07:23 pm
HI Clayton can you explain how you cut the bass from the tw ??  look like a new inventions !
ps the tw look a lot like the Peerless DA32TX00-08
https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-da32tx00-08-1-1-4-corundum-dome-tweeter--264-1678
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202060)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 16 Dec 2019, 01:21 am
Looks to be the same but Clayton said 0.3-grams moving mass this is 0.5 grams ... Design is the same with cooling fins curved and +/- on the back on both. His may be a custom unit.


Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 16 Dec 2019, 01:25 am
Pictured item is the same part number.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 16 Dec 2019, 01:29 am
Looks to be the same but Clayton said 0.3-grams moving mass this is 0.5 grams ... Design is the same with cooling fins curved and +/- on the back on both. His may be a custom unit.

One clear difference with Clayton's is a much lower extension.  Also Clayton mentions ferrofluid cooling.  In the thread where I compare the M3S and the M3TM I give my opinion on this.  Spatial does not make their own drivers and Clayton makes that clear.  Spatial partners with driver manufactures on custom builds.  This IMO was an excellent partnership.  Wilson audio does not make their own drivers either along with many others who make excellent speakers.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 16 Dec 2019, 01:41 am
As long as the sound is great I do not care where they come from. Just interesting. Oil paint is cheap its how you put it on canvas. i can hear Clayton putting the sound together as a whole. He probably kissed allot  of mid/tweeters to get it right  at the pricepoint
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202074)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: nicoch on 16 Dec 2019, 05:35 pm
.  This IMO was an excellent partnership. 
Sure Peerles  is really good ,a little bs marketing but we know is just this world...
but you quote:
 1) The Sapphire tweeter is electrically connected directly to the amplifier output (no internal x-over network)
this is not possible ,maybe a special  serial xover con be done caps less
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 16 Dec 2019, 05:48 pm
Sure Peerles  is really good ,a little bs marketing but we know is just this world...
but you quote:
 1) The Sapphire tweeter is electrically connected directly to the amplifier output (no internal x-over network)
this is not possible ,maybe a special  serial xover con be done caps less

Maybe it's just me. But it seems that your queries would be better addressed to Clayton offline and not in this forum. You almost seem confrontational.

Shakey

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 16 Dec 2019, 05:51 pm
I don't see it that way.

I certainly would love to know more about both drivers of my soon to ship speakers, so long as it doesn't compromise IP, etc.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 16 Dec 2019, 05:58 pm
Asking questions is ok. Sometimes it's the delivery that could be improved upon.

 But if one really wants to know more about the drivers in Clayton's (or any other manufacturer) speakers, it's way more efficient to have a phone conversation. That is, if you are serious about understanding the design and not just trolling. Again, not pointing fingers, just offering an opinion on the optics.

Shakey

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 16 Dec 2019, 06:14 pm
Sure Peerles  is really good ,a little bs marketing but we know is just this world...
but you quote:
 1) The Sapphire tweeter is electrically connected directly to the amplifier output (no internal x-over network)
this is not possible ,maybe a special  serial xover con be done caps less

You are flat out wrong.  You can wire directly from your amp into the tweeter bypassing the speaker binding posts entirely.  This is how Paul of Anticable said he is going to wire his as you can see in his post.  And this is not the first time it has been done in a loudspeaker design.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 16 Dec 2019, 06:15 pm
Shakey,

I am with you. Asking a question is one thing. Making a bold statement that something cannot be done is entirely different. Especially without firsthand knowledge of the product. Armchair engineering.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: nicoch on 17 Dec 2019, 07:58 pm
You can wire directly from your amp into the tweeter bypassing the speaker binding posts entirely.  This is how Paul of Anticable said he is going to wire his as you can see in his post. 
this is actually impossible for  a tw ! maybe new inventions ? 
a new  patent  in a story of loudspeakers ?
most probably Paul is wrong ..but  that's why I ask kindly to Clayton 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: nicoch on 17 Dec 2019, 08:10 pm
just a remember one the best monster  drome 3" in this world  is the ATC , 7kg  is filtred at 300Hz.....
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATC-SM75-150.htm
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 18 Dec 2019, 04:48 am
On a unrelated note , I tried some Howard’s feed n wax on my walnut speakers. It’s beeswax and orange  oil.   I put a little on an wiped it off rather quickly ( the directions say leave on for 20 minutes but didn’t want to push my luck and alter the wood veneer in a negative way).  IMO it brought out more  of the beauty  of the veneer without looking glossy. Also there was some parts of the veneer in the grain that was white where the stain did not reach.  It darkened up those areas as well.  I am sure Clayton can comment on the care of the speakers but I thought I would share the positive results.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: bobh123 on 20 Dec 2019, 06:56 am
Clayton, what do you recommend for the treatment of the wood on the front of the Sapphires??
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Tyson on 20 Dec 2019, 03:32 pm
Are there any models in Colorado?  I'd love to hear a pair.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 21 Dec 2019, 02:11 am
It’s approximately 16 feet wide by about 30 -35 feet deep. It’s an oddly shaped room with a diagonal gas fireplace on the right side.  I sit about 10 feet back measured from  the speaker. Behind the couch is a table, then a foosball table , bar stools and a bar.  Obviously I never listen anywhere else other than the couch. 

The bass initially doesn’t seem as impactful as my turbo s speakers.  It also seems to drop off at lower volumes compared to the turbo s. However they are new and I have not had proper time to break them in which I’m sure is a factor.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202291)




I have been so busy  at work.  Finally uploaded a pic of my room from behind the bar to give some perspective.
That’s why I have been wondering if the M3’s would have been a better fit given the length of my room. Still need to play with m5 some more....

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 21 Dec 2019, 11:25 am
That is a big room for sure and I agree that the m3 would be the best choice. But the bass will get better as the break in process continues. The bass response of my X3s is worlds better now than it was the first 200 or so hours. So hang in there. Oh, and that’s a beautiful room.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 21 Dec 2019, 01:22 pm
That is a big room for sure and I agree that the m3 would be the best choice. But the bass will get better as the break in process continues. The bass response of my X3s is worlds better now than it was the first 200 or so hours. So hang in there. Oh, and that’s a beautiful room.

Shakey
Thanks for the compliment! It’s all my wife.  She has quite the knack for decorating. I got the speakers during such a busy time of year between work and Christmas that I haven’t put in the necessary hours to break these in.  I’m hopeful the bass does improve
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Downtheline on 21 Dec 2019, 04:30 pm
Nice room! Yeah you definitely need the m3s, I'll take the m5s off your hands.!! :D
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 21 Dec 2019, 06:11 pm
My M5s are will soon be on the truck.

Tell me: do they arrive in one box that is 65-75 pounds?  Or two such boxes, each weighing that.  Am presuming the former.

Thx.

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 21 Dec 2019, 06:36 pm


Two boxes. Each box about 35lbs, moved mine with a hand cart alone.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202258)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 21 Dec 2019, 06:41 pm
So it that both boxes (wrapped together) or just one of two in the photo?

I only belabor it because my garage is very small and very full, and I'll need to clear space for pallet and boxes during the trial period!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 21 Dec 2019, 10:16 pm
So it that both boxes (wrapped together) or just one of two in the photo?

I only belabor it because my garage is very small and very full, and I'll need to clear space for pallet and boxes during the trial period!

I can answer.  They are 2 in a pallet. Very well packed and secure.  They are also heavy and today my back can attest to that.  I moved them temporarily into another room because we are having a party tonight and about 9 kids 8 and under are coming. Sprained my back badly
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 21 Dec 2019, 10:53 pm
M5 come 2/box. The packing is excellent.

Single M5 speakers are not that heavy but they are awkward to move without damaging a driver or grill cloth. Moving them is a two person job. Moving them to another room is easy using a small wheeled dolly. I have a cheap, plastic one from Harbor Freight and my favorite, a FlatForm hand cart. Just use pads because the feet straddle the dolly. Again, a two person job. One to drive and one to steady the speakers. I have owned speakers much harder to move.  :weights:

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 22 Dec 2019, 01:29 am
M5 come 2/box. The packing is excellent.

Single M5 speakers are not that heavy but they are awkward to move without damaging a driver or grill cloth. Moving them is a two person job. Moving them to another room is easy using a small wheeled dolly. I have a cheap, plastic one from Harbor Freight and my favorite, a FlatForm hand cart. Just use pads because the feet straddle the dolly. Again, a two person job. One to drive and one to steady the speakers. I have owned speakers much harder to move.  :weights:

If you are a strapping young one , one person can grab from each side and lift them that way without any damage to the speaker ( your back yes , speaker is fine )
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Rosswell105 on 22 Dec 2019, 02:17 am
M5 or M3 comes in 2 boxes. Each box weighs about 70-90lb. If you have a hand cart, it is easy to move one box at a time. This is what I suggest. Cut one end of the box and open the flaps. Place the box on the open end with flaps pull outward. Now the cartoon can slide vertically all the way. Once the box is off, the speakers will be standing on one of the styrofoam blocks. Lace the speaker horizontally on the floor and remove the styrofoam at the bottom of the speakers. For M5, you can attach the footer and stand the speaker upright. This way you don’t have to lift the speaker at all and this can easily done by one person. I have a lower back problem and I was able to set up M5 without stressing my back at all.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: JackD on 22 Dec 2019, 03:14 am
Put the four spikes in a furniture slider each and you can move them anywhere.  I have moved my M3TM's from room to room several times that way.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 22 Dec 2019, 03:27 am
Put the four spikes in a furniture slider each and you can move them anywhere.  I have moved my M3TM's from room to room several times that way.

I will remember that for next time.  Thanks.  I think my issue was that I lifted them and held them away from my body - hence the severe back pain I’m experiencing now.  Should have asked for help but I’m a typical 52 yo guy who still thinks  he’s 25😩
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 4 Jan 2020, 11:56 am
Audiosaurusrex / René,

Thinking that others may benefit from your email questions to me, I decided to answer them here, especially since you mentioned it here yesterday.

M3 / M5 Turbo S and Triode Master speakers:

With Spatial's Turbo S and Triode Master speakers, Clayton and I have always run AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires at every audio show we have done. We are very good at being able to put together a demo room that sounds better than the majority, while being one of the least expensive at the show. A tough act to pull off. With this goal in mind, we don't even consider dropping AntiCables Level 5 or Level 6 Speaker Wires into the system.  But...

When running the M3 Triode Master speakers in my home, I am free to use whatever speaker wires I want, so for quite a while I ran Level 6, just because I could. About a month ago, I decided to experiment with speaker wires, because I was getting the feeling there was not good synergy between the Level 6 and the M3TM. I tried a pair of my AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires, and liked them better. Cool!

I think the Level 6 Speaker Wires being more resolving didn't work well with the Triode Master's high frequencies signature. I am not pointing fingers at the Triode Master speakers, as all high frequency drivers have a signature (a sound of their own that is not part of the music). The great thing discovered is that the Turbo S and M3 Triode Master speakers actually sound better with the less expensive Level 3.1 Speaker Wires. The politeness of very low dislocation density pure copper wire has good synergy with the older M3 models.


Sapphire Speakers:

At Capital AudioFest 2019 a few weeks ago, Clayton and I again used Level 3.1 Speaker Wires to achieve our goal of great sound for little cost. For anyone buying the new M3 or M5 Sapphire speakers, AntiCables Level 3.1 Speaker Wires are highly recommended.  After all, the Level 3.1 / Sapphire combination (along with LTA, LampizatOr, and Innuos electronics), got recognized as a top sounding room by both Stereophile and AVShowrooms.

Even though the Sapphire speakers do not have bi-wire terminals, they can be bi-wires because of these two facts:

1) The Sapphire tweeter is electrically connected directly to the amplifier output (no internal x-over network)

2) The Sapphire tweeter has 4mm Banana Sockets on the back (as you can see in this photo from "SnowPuppy77")


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201546)


Because of this, factory leads can be unplugged and an alternate pair of speaker wires can be directly connected. Beautiful!

From what I heard at CAF, the Sapphire tweeter is higher resolving, has less sonic signatures, and is more extended than earlier M3 models. Because of this, I am expecting the Sapphire HF driver will benefit from the higher resolving Level 5 ACElectrum™ Silver/Gold alloy metallurgy.

When I get my pair of M3 Sapphire speakers, I'm going to simply start with a pair of Level 3.1 Speaker Wires so they are the same as at CAF.

After they are well broken-in, and I am very familiar with the sound, I'll unplug the factory wires out of the tweeter and run Level 5 directly to them, from the amplifier, for highest resolution. The back of the tweeters have Banana plugs, so it is super easy to do this. One just has to be sure that the two unused factory banana plugs don't touch anything (insulated with electrical tape or shrink tubing).

To answer you question about what terminations to order to do this bi-wire configuration, I recommend:

- Level 3.1 Speaker Wires with our optional Bananas on both ends (connect to factory speaker terminals)

- Level 5 Speaker Wires with Spades on the Amplifier ends, and optional Bananas on the Speaker Ends (connect to sapphire tweeter)

Both can be seen here: http://anticables.com/speaker-wires/2-channel

Having one set of speaker wire with spades and the other with bananas, makes it easy to connect both to the same amplifier output terminals.

Hope that helps.

Please ask any questions anyone has about cabling the Spatial speakers, and I'll do my best to answer them as best I can.

Thanks!
Paul Speltz(AntiCables)

Hi Paul, Any progress toward this effort? Thanks, 3435
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Paul Speltz on 5 Jan 2020, 01:42 am
timing3435,

No progress yet. I'm still waiting for my pair to arrive.

Clayton knows that I am OK waiting until he gets caught up with all his other orders before taking care of me, so I am being patience.

Thanks!

Paul Speltz (AntiCables)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: timing3435 on 6 Jan 2020, 01:33 am
Hi Paul, I started playing with your idea today, it really has helped me get what I want out of the high end. I like hearing the micro-detail without having to exaggerate the treble. I ran cable directly from the amp to the mid/tweeter with various cables on hand  ... for me, a litz braided cable of 99% silver did the number for me. Not saying its for others but this gives me an amazing amount of flexablity to get what I want. The good news- is the mid/tweeter can deliver quite a different sound signature depending on the cable.  When you get your cables figured out let me know. I am willing to experiment.   Thanks, Timing3435
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Downtheline on 24 Feb 2020, 05:28 pm
Does anyone have pics of the maple finish M3 or M5 sapphires in the wild?

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 24 Feb 2020, 05:48 pm
I've got pics of the X3 in the wild, maple finish.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Downtheline on 24 Feb 2020, 05:57 pm
I've got pics of the X3 in the wild, maple finish.

Shakey

Shakey, isn't yours the natural finish in a different wood?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 24 Feb 2020, 06:13 pm
Ahhh, maybe so. I just thought they looked like maple to me.

They match my Mapleshade rack anyway....... :wink:

Going back and looking,  you are right. Mine are natural......
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 24 Feb 2020, 07:05 pm
Ahhh, maybe so. I just thought they looked like maple to me.

They match my Mapleshade rack anyway....... :wink:

Going back and looking,  you are right. Mine are natural......

I think you have the UltraLam which would be much different than a maple veneer in terms of grain.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Terence T. on 14 Mar 2020, 09:09 am
Hi Anyone,

Any M5 Sapphire owners care to post a rear pic of the speakers? And the number of spiked feet of the M5 Sapphire? :hyper:

Terence
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 14 Mar 2020, 01:43 pm
Clayton might need to provide.  There has been a redesign since I bought mine.  I suspect there are still two spikes under front baffle, but the crossover is now outboard on the back support leg. There is a photo somewhere of the M3s at Florida show.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Terence T. on 14 Mar 2020, 03:04 pm
Clayton might need to provide.  There has been a redesign since I bought mine.

Thanks Sockpit. I believe I have to wait for Clayton to elaborate on the M5 Sapphire new designs.

Terence
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 14 Mar 2020, 07:36 pm
There is no redesign.  Clayton already answered this in a post on the Florida show thread. I copied it below



Re: Florida Show Results - Spatial / LTA / Lampizator / AntiCables
« Reply #4 on: 24 Feb 2020, 12:09 am »
Quote
Hi Guys,

I made the baffle on both models slightly smaller to allow Fedex shipping rather than truck freight. There was not enough space inside the baffle for the crossover, hence the box mounted on the base.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 14 Mar 2020, 07:56 pm
I won't argue over the meaning of "redesign."

But the "bottom" of the M series is now differently constructed than when mine shipped.  I suspect the thing the crossover box is sitting on is integrated into the structure of the base.  Mine was just a heavy L bracket and two spikes going directly into the wood.

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 14 Mar 2020, 09:34 pm
We know the base of the M3 was redesigned and its overall height and width were shortened.  But not sure if there were any changes to the M5.  If the M5 had to ship by freight then perhaps it did.  I have read many horrible reviews of freight companies with these kinds of shipments.  In my experience FedEx is much better.  I was fortunate that I did not have significant issues with my M3 with freight.  But it was supposed to arrive on a Friday and I got a call on a Monday and they said they were delivering the next day 3 days early.  Had to work from home that day because the delivery range was so wide.  After the speakers had arrived in Omaha the tracking still said the speakers were in Utah.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 15 Mar 2020, 12:20 am
I don't know what exactly the M5s now look like. I think Clayton said both models were changed to take advantage of better shipping options. 

I hear you about Freight Companies.  Mine was fine, but I made the mistake of reading Yelp reviews when they were shipped, and was bracing for the worst.  The worst never came though.  They were in their window and slipping the two guy some cash got them up to my first story unit in a jiffy.

Fed Ex is likely more reliable all around.  Don't know what their damage coverage is like.  It's technically not insurance, I've read.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Terence T. on 15 Mar 2020, 08:41 am
Thanks to Jprod, Sockpit and SnowPuppy77 for your explanations of the M Sapphire so-called redesign. Really appreciate your effort and perhaps Clayton can shed some light on this topic? :duh:

Terence
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: loki7177 on 15 Apr 2020, 08:33 pm
I received my M3S a week and a half ago and they have the new design and are also a painted color.  I see some people have asked about this finish and wanted to see the new design so here are some pictures.  According to Clayton the reason for the redesign is so the speakers can be shipped via FedEx, probably for lower costs and faster transit times.  So instead of standing straight up 90* perpendicular to the floor and metal feet they are bolted to an MDF base.  There is a metal box mounted to the base that probably houses the two toroidal inductors.  The baffle is angled back slightly, about 6* by my guess, so that the speaker won't tip forward.  There are three cone spikes on the base, two in the front and one in the back.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207276)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207279)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207278)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 15 Apr 2020, 08:45 pm
Your white M3S are stunning!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 15 Apr 2020, 10:07 pm
Those look really good. Congrats.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 18 Apr 2020, 07:51 pm
Do you actually own a pair of M Sapphires that you have tried these on?  Comments like "much more transparent sound" seem pretty exaggerated and frankly theoretical.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 18 Apr 2020, 07:54 pm
"2. Bi-wire the speaker.....this is a no brainer.  You simply remove the bananas from the back of the tweeter and install a second set of cables from your amp directly into the banana holes in the tweeter.  The tweeter signal path will be much shorter and purer.  You will be eliminating the WBT binding posts, the wire from the binding post to the output connector on the xover box, the output connector and the wire to the tweeter (that runs inside the speaker) to the tweeter.  You will get much more transparent sound, this way.  And you can tune the sound of the speaker by the type of tweeter wire you use.  Of course, this could be put back to stock in 10 seconds...."

Ric,

You might want to stop messing with other people's designs. Item 2 is very bad advice. There is at least one capacitor limiting the excursion of the tweeter. Your suggestion removes that protection and the speaker cannot be put back to stock in 10 seconds if the tweeter is blown.  :cry:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 18 Apr 2020, 08:00 pm
Ric Schultz,

Ok - I have had about enough of this. Over 10 years of tweeking comments like this - way back to the Emerald Physics days. You don't own a pair of M Sapphires, so conjecturing about changes are of no value at this point. It can be misleading to readers not familiar with tweeking. Any product can probably be improved in some way, but as a manufacturer, my company must be responsible for everything we do and say. You, on the other hand, can just tell someone to change a component or change the design without any accountability. This nonsense has been going on way too long and should be called out. I am sure you are a nice guy, but please stop the irresponsible recommendations. Posting on the Open Baffle Circle as DIY is probably more appropriate and even better would be that you introduce your own speaker and show us all how do it correctly.

Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio Lab
www.spatialaudio.us
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 18 Apr 2020, 08:00 pm
I’m going to try to remove the drivers completely so they don’t mask pure sound . . .

 :popcorn:

But seriously, Clayton is right. You’ve got no real skin in my speaker’s game.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Ric Schultz on 18 Apr 2020, 08:05 pm
Don S,
There is no cap in series with the tweeter.  There is no protection on the tweeter (that I know of).  Clayton clearly states that the tweeter is run direct.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 18 Apr 2020, 08:09 pm
No, I do not own a pair of these speakers.  But I have done every mod I suggest to various speakers and these things are universal.....you will hear "different" sound with each of these mods.  i think this "different" is more transparent and real.  You can find out for yourself what these things do by trying them.....then you will have direct experiential evidence (assuming you believe what you hear).  I am the person that started all the Magnepan modding.....again, without ever owning one or modding one.  Back in the late 90s, I suggested a bunch of mods to someone in Chicago and they did the mods and found them all great and that is how MUG (Magnepan Users Group) got started.  My first rule of tweaking is to remove everything that is not needed (since no single part is perfectly pure so the more parts you eliminate....the more pure the sound).  The Spatial Sapphire series is the first speaker in the history of the world to have no xover on a tweeter (as far as I know).  You are going to get way more pure sound by not having coils, caps and resistors in the  signal path.  Amazing......what he has done....hats off!

Ric Schultz

Your last sentence tells me you don't understand how the design works.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Ric Schultz on 18 Apr 2020, 08:13 pm
Clayton,
I don't understand your statement.  Your lit.....and what you have said, is that the woofers have coils in series with them and the tweeter has nothing in series.....what do I not understand?  Is there more to it that you have not revealed?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Spatial Audio on 18 Apr 2020, 08:17 pm
Ric Schultz,

I actually misread it - sorry - thought you were saying it would sound better if we removed all of the caps and coils. Doesn't change my point anyway. Please go to DIY Land and stop wasting everyone's time on a nice Saturday afternoon.

Clayton
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: lcd54222 on 22 Apr 2020, 03:43 pm
Well, after reading everyone's posts and quite a bit of deliberation trying to decide between the M3s and the M5s - I ordered a pair of M5s in Sapele yesterday afternoon (Clayton is a pleasure to work with).  This will be my first foray into OB speakers.  I have a couple of friends with Linkwitz Orions which sound impressive, but I'd rather not deal with active crossovers and multiple amps - thus Clayton's approach of no crossovers spoke to me (simpler is better!).  My dedicated listening room is pretty small, 10' x 11', so I felt the M5s should be more than adequate.  My current speakers are Wilson Audio Duettes driven by a Pass Labs XA-30.8 amp.  This is a very resolving and accurate system with a large, deep soundstage.   I listen primarily to jazz and some classic rock on either vinyl or digital depending on my mood.  The speakers should arrive next week - I'm so
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207603)
looking forward to hearing them!  Larry 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: jazzman463 on 23 Apr 2020, 12:59 pm

Hi Larry, beautiful set up you have there. I think the M'5's will work well in that space. Interested to see how they compare with the Wilsons. I have them in a 12 x 13 room and enjoy them thoroughly. I look at them as large monitors. They will take a while to settle in. They work well with jazz particularly with drums and cymbals. I listen mostly in near field. Enjoy.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202261)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202263)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 23 Apr 2020, 01:11 pm
It will certainly be interesting to see how a pair of M5 Sapphires can follow Wilson Duettes. Can't wait to hear.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: lcd54222 on 23 Apr 2020, 08:32 pm
Thanks, I can't wait to hear how they compare either!   :D  Will definitely keep ya'll updated.  In doing a quick check of the location of the speakers I found my room's a little bigger than I thought - 11' x 12' (still pretty much a one butt room).  The front baffle of the speakers are about 42" out from the front wall,  3' in from the side walls and about 8' from the listening position. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 23 Apr 2020, 09:04 pm
I'm in an 11 x 14 x 8 room, former bedroom, now my office. Received M5s in early January. Then added an LTA Z10, then Anticables.  Own an Exogal Comet, so Lampi can wait a while ;)

Speakers are on the long wall, 6.5 feet apart, measuring from centers. Baffle is towed in, 3-4 ft from front wall, and just a couple feet from sides.

I'm finding sitting near field (just 5 feet away from each tweeter) is best overall. It takes more of the room out of it.

Will try to attach a pic.

Am looking forward to hearing your impressions.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207687)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 23 Apr 2020, 09:07 pm
sorry, duplicate.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: uncola on 23 Apr 2020, 11:06 pm
Wow that’s near field for sure!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: lcd54222 on 24 Apr 2020, 04:42 am
Sockpit, how are you liking the LTA Z10 amp and anticables?  What did they replace?  Same combo as one of the audio shows that received many accolades?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 24 Apr 2020, 05:40 pm
Am enjoying them very much.  LTA amp is, I hope, my last.  Has a great phono stage and headphone amp to boot.  Nick Tolson at LTA was great to work with, just as Clayton is. 

I’m not big into cable voodoo, but found the anticables slightly better than the duelund 12 gauge I also tried.  But if you blind tested me, I’m sure I’d flunk.

This little system for my little room replaced Exogal Ion amp and Scansonic 2.5 speakers.  I very much liked the  Exogal (it’s an add on to my Comet DAC), but I’ve always wanted to give tubes and OB a try. The combination in a small space has taken care of modes and boom in low frequency.  And very dark background.

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: lcd54222 on 25 Apr 2020, 04:40 am
Just curious what made the most sonic change/improvement, the speakers or the amp?  Did you put in the Spatial M5 speakers first and then get the amp? 

Best, Larry
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 26 Apr 2020, 12:33 am
Each did its part.  The M5s came first and were so different sounding than my scansonics (which I kept around and compared) I was somewhat disoriented.  It took lots of burn in of speakers and brain to realize just how dark and muffled and boomy the old speakers were in my tiny room. I did like the ribbon tweeter of the scansonics, and sometimes still find the M5s to be too bright on poor or even avg recordings.  The bass is a huge improvement.

The amp was the icing on the cake and a big splurge for me. Trusting Clayton and the trade show buzz, I figured why not give the LTA a 14 day trial.  (My wife has an easy answer: $5K ;) ). The speakers sounded good with my old amp, but they sound really special with the LTA.  Still can’t believe 12 watts can do this.  Also can’t believe how many crappy recordings are out there.  The downside to a system this resolving is that you’re at the mercy of the recoding studio ...  if you want your entire record collection to sound great, don’t do what I did.     :duh:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: lcd54222 on 26 Apr 2020, 05:03 am
Thanks sockpit - yes, I can relate to having a resolving system and no longer being happy with the production of some recordings, but it's OK with me because well produced recordings just sound phenomenal and the not so good recordings are good for background music. 

Larry
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: aniwolfe on 29 Apr 2020, 04:45 pm
Thanks sockpit - yes, I can relate to having a resolving system and no longer being happy with the production of some recordings, but it's OK with me because well produced recordings just sound phenomenal and the not so good recordings are good for background music. 

Larry

My opinion is if your system can't play recordings from artists you love, then you got an issue. The trick is to find a happy compromise between resolution and musicality. If Zeppelin or Rush sound like crap then I got to change something.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 29 Apr 2020, 04:50 pm
If a speaker can do Tool, Clutch, Screaming Females, Goddamn Gallows, etc. right, it can do "girl with guitar/piano" just fine........

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 29 Apr 2020, 05:53 pm
My opinion is if your system can't play recordings from artists you love, then you got an issue. The trick is to find a happy compromise between resolution and musicality. If Zeppelin or Rush sound like crap then I got to change something.

I'm sympathetic to this sentiment, but I do wonder whether any system can do Zeppelin, Rush, and so much other classic rock in a room as small as mine.  Half the fun of such bands is cranking it to concert levels--or at least loud enough to disturb the spouse.  But given such bands "wall of sound" and/or dense complexity there is probably only so much any system can do with an 11 by 13.5 ft space?  I have been enjoying well-recorded symphonies, which are also in their own way far more demanding than, say, female vocalists and jazz quartets.  But with the heavy guns, whether rock or classical, there seems to be a point of diminishing returns on the volume level in a space so small. One wants to turn it up to get the energy intended, but with nowhere for the sound to go, except bouncing around the room, the SQ goes south.  If my room were 18 by 25, I think I could have different expectations.

Am a relative newbie; does this sound reasonable?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: JTF on 29 Apr 2020, 05:57 pm
If a speaker can do Tool, Clutch, Screaming Females, Goddamn Gallows, etc. right, it can do "girl with guitar/piano" just fine........

Shakey

Screamales! Nice taste in music Shakey. FWIW, I placed an order with Clayton on Monday for a pair of X5s, I look forward to listening to some good music on them.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: lcd54222 on 29 Apr 2020, 06:34 pm
Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with aniwolfe.  IMHO if a recording has been compressed to the extent that it's flat and one-dimensional - the only system it's going to sound good on is an MP3 file playing on your phone.   For example, we enjoyed watching the Prince 4-year commemorative show the other evening, so I pulled up Purple Rain on Qobuz (24/96) for a listen to the album and man was I disappointed in the sonics and how poorly produced the album is - I can still kinda enjoy the music, but not as much as a well recorded, mastered and produced piece. 

I checked with Clayton earlier this week - he says he's working on 8 pairs of M3s and M5s!  My M5s should ship sometime next week - woot!

Larry 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Dsaldivar on 30 Apr 2020, 12:54 am
Hi everyone!
I am in the process of putting together what I assume to be my retirement system. I'd like to have input from members that actually own the new M3 speakers.  I'm thinking of pairing my Don Sachs preamplifier with a  Quicksilver Mid Monos  amps. These amplifiers can use EL34's, KT77's, KT88's, KT120's and KT150's with a maximum output of 50 w/c.
My room dimensions are 12ft  by 19ft.
 Is this a good system?
Thanks in advance,
Dan
http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/midi-m
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208076)

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: uncola on 30 Apr 2020, 01:11 am
That sounds like a good combo to me.  That picture you posted is of an old vintage one I think.. this is probably how your newly built amps will appear
(http://quicksilveraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/6-1024x693.jpg)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 30 Apr 2020, 03:40 am
Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with aniwolfe.  IMHO if a recording has been compressed to the extent that it's flat and one-dimensional - the only system it's going to sound good on is an MP3 file playing on your phone.   For example, we enjoyed watching the Prince 4-year commemorative show the other evening, so I pulled up Purple Rain on Qobuz (24/96) for a listen to the album and man was I disappointed in the sonics and how poorly produced the album is - I can still kinda enjoy the music, but not as much as a well recorded, mastered and produced piece. 

I checked with Clayton earlier this week - he says he's working on 8 pairs of M3s and M5s!  My M5s should ship sometime next week - woot!

Larry

Am listening to Rush, and it sounds pretty tinny and like so many albums of that era (and ours).  I’d have to really like them to continue.  Some Zeppelin is ok sounding, but a lot of it, meh.  I was a teenager in the 70s and early 80s so it’s not like I’m unfamiliar with these bands.  Just think so much of it needs to be played at deafening levels to sound like it should.  Might just be my age and my room...

I think I’ll switch to girl with guitar soon.  Does that mean I’m an audiophile?  :lol:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Dsaldivar on 30 Apr 2020, 04:41 am
According to this diagram and the instructions manual my photo represents the current model
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=208088)
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 30 Apr 2020, 10:58 am
Am listening to Rush, and it sounds pretty tinny and like so many albums of that era (and ours).  I’d have to really like them to continue.  Some Zeppelin is ok sounding, but a lot of it, meh.  I was a teenager in the 70s and early 80s so it’s not like I’m unfamiliar with these bands.  Just think so much of it needs to be played at deafening levels to sound like it should.  Might just be my age and my room...

I think I’ll switch to girl with guitar soon.  Does that mean I’m an audiophile?  :lol:

With the exception of the self titled Rush album, if you are listening to any other Rush album and the sound is not good, you might have a problem. Even if you don't like their music, most of their early stuff was very well recorded. I'm thinking of Moving Pictures, Farewell to Kings, Hemispheres, 2112, Fly By Night. All of these are what I would call good to very good recordings. Caress of Steel I'd say is slightly above average.

If Moving Pictures sounds bad, I'd be very concerned..........

Shakey


Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 30 Apr 2020, 02:02 pm
Thanks. My standards might be too high, too.  Will listen further!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 30 Apr 2020, 02:17 pm
I was also a teen in that era and listen to zep and rush.  The zep reissues sound great especially zep II.  Agree that rush sounds great too esp moving pictures , signals and hemispheres.  When I went from the m3 to x5 I lost some of that low end and I too had to crank it up but then you lose some fidelity.  I wasn’t entirely happy so I’m switching to x5 which I should hopefully have next week. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 30 Apr 2020, 02:46 pm
You shouldn't have any lack of low end response with the X5.

Shakey
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: aniwolfe on 30 Apr 2020, 02:52 pm
Can you image having "Camera Eye" or "Natural Science" as background music only?

What I was ultimately saying is, if "I" could not listen to my favorite bands because my system became too resolute. then I would need to fix it. Thank god Rush and Zep aren't terrible. If your ok just listening to Audiophile grade recordings, more power to you. I just don't roll that way.

Certain remasters that have way too much gain and boosted treble are annoying. Like I said you got to have a happy middle ground and pray those bands you love are listenable.

Enjoy your system!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 30 Apr 2020, 03:46 pm
I was also a teen in that era and listen to zep and rush.  The zep reissues sound great especially zep II.  Agree that rush sounds great too esp moving pictures , signals and hemispheres.  When I went from the m3 to x5 I lost some of that low end and I too had to crank it up but then you lose some fidelity.  I wasn’t entirely happy so I’m switching to x5 which I should hopefully have next week.

Jprod, I think this got muddled. Can you clarify the first perhaps mistaken reference to x5?  What's been your path?

Nevermind: I see you went from M3Turbos to M5 and now on to X5.  Will be interested to hear the report on the X5s!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sunnydaze on 30 Apr 2020, 05:22 pm
I had the same confusion....

He says he lost some low end with the X5....
so he's switching to the X5 to try and remedy it?     :scratch:

I'm guessing he means he will upgrade to the X3.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Shakeydeal on 30 Apr 2020, 05:24 pm
I think he means he went from the M3 to the M5 Sapphire and now he's going to the X5. If he went from the old M3 to the X5 there is no way he would have LESS bass.

At least that's my interpretation.


Shakey

Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jprod on 30 Apr 2020, 07:51 pm
I think he means he went from the M3 to the M5 Sapphire and now he's going to the X5. If he went from the old M3 to the X5 there is no way he would have LESS bass.

At least that's my interpretation.


Shakey

Yes yes. My apologies for the confusion. I was dealing with another issue the same time I was posting. Went from M3 turbo s to M5.  What I gained on the top end I lost in bass.  I was orinally going to go from m5 to M3 sapphire but I went with Claytons suggestion of the x5. 
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Don_S on 30 Apr 2020, 08:09 pm
A little help please. I was always confused by Clayton using a larger number for the smaller speaker in a series so I guess I confuse easily. :scratch:

Was there an M5 model prior to the M5 Sapphire? I see references to M5 and I am not sure if that was a model or just shorthand for M5 Sapphire.

Thanks for any education.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: sockpit on 30 Apr 2020, 08:15 pm
M5 can only refer to sapphire, so far as I understand past offerings.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 5 May 2020, 02:34 pm
Clayton,

The updates to the website look really good!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: lcd54222 on 15 May 2020, 11:40 pm
My M5 Sapphires shipped today and should arrive in the SF Bay Area Sunday afternoon.  Very exciting, but I'm bummed that I'm heading out of town on Monday . . . I'm looking forward to getting some hours on them and hearing what they can do.  Larry
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: morganc on 16 May 2020, 01:08 am
My M5 Sapphires shipped today and should arrive in the SF Bay Area Sunday afternoon.  Very exciting, but I'm bummed that I'm heading out of town on Monday . . . I'm looking forward to getting some hours on them and hearing what they can do.  Larry
I'm in Marin with X5's Larry.   Where are you?  You will need a long break in time. Maybe you can do that while you're out of town?
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: lcd54222 on 16 May 2020, 04:13 am
Hi Morganc,

I'm in Walnut Creek.  Yes from what I've read, I'll need some patience with the break in - it would be good if I could do some of the break-in while out of town, but I don't think my wife would appreciate that. 

How long have you had your X5s?  What was your path to them? 

Larry
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Horizons on 27 Jul 2020, 09:25 pm
It's encouraging that Clayton is finally getting away from compression drivers. Maybe Spatial's will start sounding more relaxed without that compression driver/horn shout.

Spatials now start at $3500/pair? Seems he is going more upscale.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: morganc on 27 Jul 2020, 11:56 pm
Hi Morganc,

I'm in Walnut Creek.  Yes from what I've read, I'll need some patience with the break in - it would be good if I could do some of the break-in while out of town, but I don't think my wife would appreciate that. 

How long have you had your X5s?  What was your path to them? 

Larry

How has the break in been Larry? 

I picked up the X-5's in March, and am finally getting them dialed in very nicely!

How are yours coming along? 

I have owned the Spatial M3TM's, and before that GR Research Super V's, Zu Definition MkIV's, Zu Druid Mk V's, Tekton Pendragons, Tekton Lores and quite a few more.....

Loving the X-5's  I would love to have a pair of Gr Research OB servos as well as I have a large open room. Other than that, loving them!
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jean-Paul on 28 Jul 2020, 02:52 am
It's encouraging that Clayton is finally getting away from compression drivers. Maybe Spatial's will start sounding more relaxed without that compression driver/horn shout.

You're right about the compression drivers sounding on the "shouty" side but they also have a "liveness" that I haven't heard duplicated through any other driver type. And they can sound relaxed with naturally-recorded material. So I'm not entirely convinced about the move away from compression drivers: it may be a case of substituting extra "refinement" for the incredible immediacy of the older design. At the moment, I'm moving from speaker (Barefoot mm12) to speaker (Spatial Audio M4 TurboS) to get the benefits of each - refinement and bass extension with one, immediacy and imagery with the other.
 
I have a few other reservations about the newer designs. First of all, they're a lot more expensive and it appears that you're paying for baffle material and new drivers. Now, even though my M4 TurboS baffle vibrates dramatically, i don't hear any muffling or wooliness in the sound. In fact, I would like a little more warmth and bloom and if baffle resonance contributes to that then I'm all for it. So more expensive and deader baffles may not make a major positive difference to the sound, from my point of view. Next, the new designs are not co-axial so I'm guessing the imagery isn't as good. Third, you seem to be getting less woofer to achieve ostensibly more bass. For instance, The M4 has TWO twelve inch woofers to get what I hear as a gradual roll-of below maybe 120 Hz (at 6dB an octave this makes it only 6dB down at 60 Hz and maybe 10 at the specified 42 Hz).
With, say, the X5, you're getting a SINGLE twelve-inch woofer to do all the bass work up to 90Hz and you're paying three and a half times the price of the M4 TurboS to get this. Now, no doubt this is a simplistic way of looking at things: the new woofer may move a lot more air than the old one; it is active and there's probably an electronic boost to give it extra bass, so I may be comparing apples with oranges. Even so, I'm sceptical that the new designs are superior in every single respect to the older, cheaper designs. But I may be wrong.
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jon L on 28 Jul 2020, 03:49 am
You're right about the compression drivers sounding on the "shouty" side but they also have a "liveness" that I haven't heard duplicated through any other driver type.

Many people seem to have this misconception about compression drivers/horns being "shouty," but this may be coming from being exposed to cheaply made compression drivers stuck into horns made for loudness over SQ, played at ear-splitting loudness powered by high-power "pro" solid state amps.  Even worse, the wonderfully sensitive (107-110 dB) compression drivers are being tortured to pad down to match 90-92dB sensitivity of woofers, often via simplistic passive crossovers made of cheap parts. 

Take a high quality compression driver mated to horn designed for sound quality, power them directly via high-quality, low watt valve amp, preferably via active crossover to bypass the said passive crossover parts, and play them at sane home volume levels, and there is nothing else like it  :green:
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Jean-Paul on 29 Jul 2020, 01:33 am
Many people seem to have this misconception about compression drivers/horns being "shouty," but this may be coming from being exposed to cheaply made compression drivers stuck into horns made for loudness over SQ, played at ear-splitting loudness powered by high-power "pro" solid state amps.  Even worse, the wonderfully sensitive (107-110 dB) compression drivers are being tortured to pad down to match 90-92dB sensitivity of woofers, often via simplistic passive crossovers made of cheap parts. 

Take a high quality compression driver mated to horn designed for sound quality, power them directly via high-quality, low watt valve amp, preferably via active crossover to bypass the said passive crossover parts, and play them at sane home volume levels, and there is nothing else like it  :green:

Agreed; the ultra-expensive and very highly regarded Meyer X-10 uses a compression driver, as does the JBL M2. And I briefly owned a set of JBL monitors which used a compression driver and that sounded far from shouty. I do find the Turbo S driver can sound very aggressive with some material but I wonder if it's actually showing reality while more conventional tweeters are muting the sound to achieve a "nicer" sound.
Title: Re: M35Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: ElGatoRon on 3 Aug 2020, 03:52 am
Have had my M3 Sapphitrs for a little over 6 weeks...play music daily.   Very happywith my decision
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212167)
  Ron
Title: Re: M5 Sapphire - All new M design introduction
Post by: Grahamps on 4 Aug 2020, 01:20 am
Hello Ron,

Your room and system and the M3's in there look fantastic! I'm curious why you still have the bookshelf speakers setup? Seeing the Subwoofer, I'm going to guess that you have a separate surround sound system running in the same space?

Peace, Graham