Oct 23 SCARE-FEST

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Mad DOg

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« on: 22 Oct 2004, 09:44 pm »
Guys,

I'm starting a new thread for our impressions at tomorrow's Oct 23 listening session...

In time for Halloween, I have appropriately decided to name it the Oct 23rd SouthernCaliforniaAudioRagE Fest  :lol:

Here are the details for SCARE-FEST...

We'll plan to start at 12 noon at my place.

Equipment to compare:
DACs: P-Tech, Benchmark, AudioMagic
Preamps: Placette Active, Placette Passive, Aragon Aurum
Amps: Son Of Ampzilla, Jeff Rowland Model 10, and Aragon Palladium IIs

In addition, we can experiment w/ biamping w/ tubes on the top and solid state on the bottom.

Looks like it's gonna be a SCAREY good time!  8)

Mad DOg

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #1 on: 24 Oct 2004, 03:35 am »
Had a late addition to the lineup: the Dodson DAC... :o  :o  :o  for those of you So Cal'rs who missed this session, well, you shouldn't have... :lol: this was THE BEST sound I've had in my room EVER! i'll be back to share some details on this session, but I have to say, the Dodson DAC is simply UNBELIEVABLE in EVERY facet! the Placette Active? UNBELIEVABLE, too!!! the S of A and Rowland Model 10? WOW! :dance:  :thumb:  :violin:  :drums:

shokunin

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #2 on: 24 Oct 2004, 04:59 am »
Just a quick note.. too tired to write up long review.

Thanks again to MD and MoMD for hosting yet another Rage..  

We ended up with the following:

Von Schweikert VR4 Jr's
Rowland Model 10 & Son of Ampzilla Amps (switched between the two for various reasons both sound really good with the VSA)
Placette Active Preamp
Dodson DA 218 DAC
Audio Alchemy DDS Pro Transport

This combination was the finest setup I've heard at Mad DOg's place.  The detail on The Bad Plus' second track (thanks to Zybar for introducing me to The Bad Plus) was incredible.  The Dodson DAC was far better in detail, bass, impact, and musciality over the other DACs.  The bass on Oceano from Josh Groban was kicking some serious air on the VSA VR-4's.   The Audiomagic DAC had a bit better sense of soundstage depth, but that's about the only area which the Dodson had any competition.

We tried the Placette passive, but after the first cut, the passive lacked detail, and immediacy.  Cymbals lost their shimmer, and bass drum lacked the weight it did with the placette active.  It could be a bad synergy in MD's systems.  We didn't try to tweak anything and decided the Placette active was a better match and we used it for the rest of the day.

lonewolfny42

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #3 on: 24 Oct 2004, 09:10 am »
Quote from: shokunin
The detail on The Bad Plus' second track (thanks to Zybar for introducing me to The Bad Plus) was incredible.  
Sorry, but I always like to give credit where credit is due, so therefore my post :thumb: . George learned of the track for me. But I learned of the Bad Plus track from fellow NY Audio Rave member Daniel(from his rave). Just so the circle is complete.Its an excellent track for bass !! 8)

PhilNYC

Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #4 on: 24 Oct 2004, 12:40 pm »
Sounds like you guys had a great time!

Just curious...what kind (and how long) of a digital IC were you using?  We've done a bit of experimenting with digital cables for the Dodson DA-218 at our NY Audio Raves and despite all the upsampling/oversampling/re-clocking that the DA-218 does, it is still quite sensitive to transport and digital IC.  Power cord makes a big difference on it, too...

zybar

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #5 on: 24 Oct 2004, 02:23 pm »
Quote from: lonewolfny42
Quote from: shokunin
The detail on The Bad Plus' second track (thanks to Zybar for introducing me to The Bad Plus) was incredible.  
Sorry, but I always like to give credit where credit is due, so therefore my post :thumb: . George learned of the track for me. But I learned of the Bad Plus track from fellow NY Audio Rave member Daniel(from his rave). Just so the circle is complete.Its an excellent track for bass !! 8)


That's correct.

Glenn was just mentioning me b/c it was one of the test tracks I used at RMAF (where Glenn and I were able to hang out a bit).

Every room I played that track in loved it and asked for the name.

Thanks Chris and Daniel.

George

John Casler

Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #6 on: 24 Oct 2004, 06:03 pm »
Well I hope all the other Regional Groups are having as much fun as we are out here.

Holy Toledo (ohio) what a great sonic treat (not tricks) we acheived yesterday.

First and foremost I (again) have to thank Mad DOg and his wonderful and supportive wife.  They have a beautiful new home and each and every session yeilds more and better sonic qualities. :mrgreen:

I might also mention we had two new attendees (Jeff and Eric) who definatly added to the fun.  Jeff being a very knowledgable and seasoned audiophile (as well as a serious reviewer for Positive Feedback Online).  It was great to exchange memories of the "early days" and the equipment we had, heard, and liusted after.

Eric was a newcomer, who was but a "weedhopper audiophile" just learning the ropes and picking up (very quickly) all of the things we were listening for and hearing.

We had some great surprises (I always like that)

1) was the BAD PLUS CD which has already been mentioned.  Ever since I got my first pair of 626Rs over 2 years ago I have been into "quality sounding bass.  Not "overpowering, kick you in the gut bass" but highly defined, solid and lifelike bass.  My first pair of 626Rs had that in spades and every CD that I find that has this is a big plus.  Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck, much of the Diana Krall Love Scenes CD, BlackLight Syndrome, and now BAD PLUS all offer some incredibly complex and detailed bass passages to test the quality and strengths of most systems.

Thanks Glen, Zybar, Lonewolfny42, and any other in the chain of sharing this gem.

2) Another surprise is the Bedini CD Clarifier.  Now as "subjective" as I might sound to some, I always search for "why" something might sound better, or improve the sound.  While I don't understand this one, it certainly seems to make a sonic improvement.

It seems that the literature says that it "de-magnetizes" the disc?????

Since when can plastic be magentized, or how can aluminum be magnetic without "current" present? (as in alnico magnet).  Is it that the "static electricity" created by the plastic is acting as current to make the aluminum become "alnico"???

And if so, whay would a magnetic force, have any effect on the laser?  Or is it the electronic circuitry that is affected and not the laser?

If anyone knows what the deal is, let me know, but I think all there would say that the CD "did" sound better after treatment.

A couple comments about the amps we used.

I brought along my Son of Ampzilla ($3250 list/100wpc) and MD has just picked up a Jeff Rowland AMP ($7300 list/150wpc).  

What a beautiful sound we had from both amps.

A few weeks ago we compared the Rowland 201s (I think around $4500/200wpc) to the SoA and due to the huge number of people there, I don't think any real conclusions were drawn, but I think this time we could all say the results were outstanding.

MD's present Rowland sounded much more "complete" and less "dry" than the 201s in this setting and system.

Firstly the Rowlands are a beautiful set (they come in two boxes) and had the Master of Mad DOg "approval rating" as well as  :D

As far as sonics, both were quite similar.  The biggest difference (on this system) might have been in the bass (and the difference was small but noticable) the Rowland seemed to have "dryer" deep bass and the bass of the SoA was "meatier".

Tonally both had slightly differing character, which sounded equally accurate.  The highend too was slightly different, but both had good definition, detail and resolution.

In this system I think most would have said the tone and quality of the midrange might have been slightly in favor of the SoA and the treble and high end might have been in favor of the Rowland, but that is in this system on these speakers.

We also compared three DACs (Benchmark, AudioMagic, and Dodson)

Of the three the Benchmark and Dodson stood out the most.  The Benchmark for its performance to value, and the Dodson for it's absolute performance.  Not one to have expereimented with or listened to a lot of DACs, I will say that the overall perfromance of the Dodson, "was" pretty incredible.

As far as the speakers.  I have always said that, for some reason, I always seem to like speakers with V in their name (VMPS, Von Scheikert, Vandersteen) and this listen to the VR-Jr's was no exception.

Now granted we had some exceptional equipment in the drive train.

The best sound included:

Audio Alchemy DDS Pro Transport
Dodson DA 218 DAC
Placette Active Preamp
AudioQuest DBS Cheetah interconnect (from Placette to SofA)
Son of Ampzilla Power Amp
AudioQuest DBS Volcano single BiWire Speaker Cables
Von Scheikert VR-Jrs
Argent Audio Jaden Signature interconnect (from Dodson to Placette Active)

The VR Jrs were exceptional.  Now while I prefer the detail and limited dispersion of ribbons, these speakers had excellent sound.

We also did a comparison of the "active" vs "passive" Placette Preamps and it took no time at all to know that the active was sounding better.

If I had to count the times I have heard better sound from "non-ribbon" systems, it would be on two fingers.  Overall this system in it's finished configuration sounded as (or almost) as good as a TAD system I heard almost a year ago.  And it might even be closer than that since I didn't hear the same cuts.

All in all this was one fun time, and aurally, a pleasure.

So again, to all the "familiar faces" great to see you again and th the new faces, glad to have you in the group. :mrgreen:

Mad DOg

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #7 on: 24 Oct 2004, 06:04 pm »
Quote from: PhilNYC
Just curious...what kind (and how long) of a digital IC were you using?  We've done a bit of experimenting with digital cables for the Dodson DA-218 at our NY Audio Raves and despite all the upsampling/oversampling/re-clocking that the DA-218 does, it is still quite sensitive to transport and digital IC.  Power cord makes a big difference on it, too...


i used a 1M Argent Audio Jaden Signature Digital Cable w/ all the DACs except for the P-Tech. the transport used was the Audio Alchemy DDS-Pro. Power cord used was the Onix Statement.

Mad DOg

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Thanks to all for making the SCARYFEST so much fun!
« Reply #8 on: 24 Oct 2004, 06:56 pm »
first off, i need to thank John for bringing his Son of Ampzilla amp, his AudioQuest dBS Volcano biwire speaker cable and dBS Cheetah ICs. BTW, happy birthday buddy! we had pumpkin pie and ice cream to celebrate his SCARE-Y birthday!  :lol:

then Shokunin for bringing the Placette Active preamp, Placette Passive preamp, and Kimber Select XLR IC...

finally, kudos to Jeff for bringing along the Dodson DAC...

John's write up sums it up pretty well. Both the Rowland and Son of Ampzilla are AMAZING amps. the Rowland looks and sounds amazing. the SofA sounds amazing and is a bargain for the price. these two amps are pretty much neck to neck when it comes to performance but do it rather differently. we all seemed to prefer the mids of the SofA with it's tube characteristics. to me, the Rowlands had a slight edge in clarity and detail across the treble range. the bass region had me preferring the Rowland. the Rowland just seemed to have a little more impact and punch with its drier sounding bass. although the Dodson DAC did tighten up and increase the impact of the bass considerably for the SofA, i still preferred the Rowland on bass...this left me wondering...why can't someone offer an amp that marries the highs of the Rowland, the mids of the SofA, and the bass of the Rowland?  :?  is this really too much to ask for?

onto preamps...the Placette Active is the BEST preamp i have heard in my system - period! the Placette passive just didn't have the goods in this system as the others have stated quite possibly for synergy and matching reasons...

cables...Cardas Golden Section biwire SCs vs AQ Volcano dBS biwire SC. the Volcano was more dynamic, had more detail, sounded more open...all around a better match in yesterday's system. the Volcano was really quite impressive.

DACs...the Dodson DAC is the BEST dac i've ever heard in my room. the bass was thunderous. the layering and palpability was exquisite. everything about this DAC was top notch. the Benchmark as John said was quite amazing for it's price. the AudioMagic did layers better than the Benchmark, but didn't have the bass slam and high end detail and transparency that the Benchmark has.

lastly, the Von Schweikert VR-4jrs...these speakers are simply amazing. they are so transparent and really do demand the best front end components. when given that, they will reward you with some of the best sound you've ever heard. otherwise they'll reveal EVERY weakness in your system.

so all in all, what a fun time with a great group of guys!

PhilNYC

Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #9 on: 25 Oct 2004, 01:57 am »
Quote from: Mad DOg
i used a 1M Argent Audio Jaden Signature Digital Cable w/ all the DACs except for the P-Tech. the transport used was the Audio Alchemy DDS-Pro. Power cord used was the Onix Statement.


Mad DOg, if you've still got the DACs available and you have a  chance to try them out with a 1.5m digital IC, I'd be curious to hear your opinion.  

(I've heard great things about the Argent cable..)

zybar

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« Reply #10 on: 25 Oct 2004, 02:03 am »
I just popped back in the Jaden Sig digital ic (I am selling it for a friend) and I have to say that while good, it wasn't as good as the VH Audio Pulsar (cryo'd with Aluminum or Silver Eichmann or NetGen Copper).

The Jaden Sig was not as detailed and much softer at the extremes.  It also produced a smaller soundstage  These are sins of omission and only really noticeable after A/B testing.

George

bubba966

Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #11 on: 25 Oct 2004, 02:10 am »
Quote from: zybar
I just popped back in the Jaden Sig digital ic (I am selling it for a friend) and I have to say that while good, it wasn't as good as the VH Audio Pulsar (cryo'd with Aluminum or Silver Eichmann or NetGen Copper).


What's aluminum? The shielding?

Mad DOg

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #12 on: 25 Oct 2004, 02:14 am »
i thought the eichmann bullet plug was only available in copper or silver...

zybar

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #13 on: 25 Oct 2004, 02:15 am »
Quote from: Mad DOg
i thought the eichmann bullet plug was only available in copper or silver...


Oops!   :oops:

MEANT copper eichmann.

George

Mad DOg

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #14 on: 25 Oct 2004, 02:18 am »
Quote from: PhilNYC
Mad DOg, if you've still got the DACs available and you have a  chance to try them out with a 1.5m digital IC, I'd be curious to hear your opinion.  

(I've heard great things about the Argent cable..)


PhilNYC,

is there any reason for the specific 1.5M length? i do have an Eichmann Digital IC in a 1.5M length that i can try but when i a/b'd it w/ the Argent IC, the Argent was marginally better with my P-3/A DAC...

Mad DOg

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #15 on: 25 Oct 2004, 02:19 am »
Quote from: zybar
Quote from: Mad DOg
i thought the eichmann bullet plug was only available in copper or silver...


Oops!   :oops:

MEANT copper eichmann.

George


no worries, zybar...that's what i thought, but maybe there was a new eichmann plug that i wasn't aware of...

zybar

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #16 on: 25 Oct 2004, 02:21 am »
Quote from: Mad DOg
Quote from: zybar
Quote from: Mad DOg
i thought the eichmann bullet plug was only available in copper or silver...


Oops!   :oops:

MEANT copper eichmann.

George


no worries, zybar...that's what i thought, but maybe there was a new eichmann plug that i wasn't aware of...


That's what happens when I am working, listening to music, and posting... :lol:

PhilNYC

Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #17 on: 25 Oct 2004, 02:30 am »
Quote from: Mad DOg

is there any reason for the specific 1.5M length? i do have an Eichmann Digital IC in a 1.5M length that i can try but when i a/b'd it w/ the Argent IC, the Argent was marginally better with my P-3/A DAC...


Technically, it has to do with the speed of a digital signal and the distance of a single "rise" on a squarewave edge.  Apparently, this "rise" will travel about 1.5m given what is known about the speed of electrical signals and the rise-time specification for SPDIF.  So if you have a digital IC shorter than 1.5m, it can (and will) cause signal reflection that can introduce jitter into the digital signal.  The problem is compounded if you are not using a true 75ohm cable.  Check out Steve Nugent's article about this on Positive-Feedback.com a couple of months ago:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

I wasn't sure how much to believe it.  However, I had a transport (sony s7700 dvd player) modded by Steve, and the main aspect of his mod was to speed up the rise time on that squarewave edge so that the edge would rise in less than 1m.  I had been using a 1m digital IC ... and I was pretty amazed at the difference when I got the unit back from him.  But I still haven't had the chance to try the 1m vs. 1.5m digital IC on an unmodded transport, so I am curious to hear what others think...

Mad DOg

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Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #18 on: 25 Oct 2004, 06:02 am »
thanks for the explanation, phil.  :)

Jon L

Oct 23 SCARE-FEST
« Reply #19 on: 25 Oct 2004, 06:11 am »
I just got back in town so missed the meeting, but glad you guys had fun.  

Too bad the Placette Passive didn't work out in your system b/c I have heard the Placette passive sound very dynamic with plenty of treble and bass extension before...

Then again, Placette Active is on my Extremely Short list of active preamplifiers to buy right away if I ever see one for reasonable $$.  

I also wanted to hear the Dodson 218, but oh well..  It's hard to imagine it had better midrange magic and bloom than the tubed AudioLogic 24MXL...

But I'm most curious about how Specifically the bargain Benchmark DAC compared to the Dodson, Mad Dog, b/c I get an impulse to buy the Benchmark once in a while on a whim  :o