Electric car talk

Danny Richie · « **Reply #20 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:23 pm »

That was a good post mojave!

jdbrian · « **Reply #21 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:26 pm »

Hi folks

This issue is more complex than it first appears. The energy used to recharge the batteries has to come from somewhere and in North America we use a lot of coal to generate electricity. Coal is the dirtiest fuel in terms of Green house gases. The electric grid also has an overall efficiency of about 30%. Electric cars will be part of the long term solution to reducing our use of fossil fuels.
I just watched a advert from Ford on their new ecoboost engine. It is a 3.5litre twin turbo'd v6 designed for the F150 that can outperform many V8 engines and burn far less fuel. At the end of the advert the Ford exec. comments that he will probably sell 10 times more of these than hybrid cars. The result will likely be that more fuel will be saved by the ecoboost than the hybrids. This is an example of innovation and technology being used to improve efficiency. This is one side of the equation and the other is reducing the total amount of work to be done. This is of course the hard part as it involves changing the way we live.
That said, I am in favour of some kind of carbon tax to encourage people to reduce their energy consumption. Hitting people in the wallet is one of the best ways to make them change behaviour. This needs to be done carefully so it dosen't impact the poor more then the rich. (I know, I'm dreaming!)

Brian

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #22 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:32 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 2 Feb 2011, 01:24 pm

What do you mean?

The roll cage, seat and safety belt systems were built to meet "NASCAR" crash and rollover specifications. This makes that car heavier than it really needs to be. When designing an electric car weight is your enemy.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #23 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:38 pm »

Quote

That said, I am in favour of some kind of carbon tax to encourage people to reduce their energy consumption. Hitting people in the wallet is one of the best ways to make them change behaviour.

Making people that can't afford it to begin with to have to pay more for energy doesn't solve anything. Without real solutions to go to it does nothing but cost people more money. The way to entice is with incentive. Solutions have to be in place and options with an attractive price.

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #24 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:40 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 2 Feb 2011, 02:10 pm

That is exactly true. That is exactly what is needed to change the industry. And let's face it, those really high oil prices are just a matter of time.

When I was a young driver the amenities in an automobile were very minimal. Crank windows, No air conditioning was still an option, manual seats, the aftermarket car stereo business was booming and the DOT had not regulated the price of cars to a very high level.

I hope that the average young family would be willing to make some creature comfort compromises so we can make this "Everymans" elctric car afordable.

HT cOz · « **Reply #25 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:48 pm »

Here is the cold hard truth. We have as a planet about 87 million bbls per day to use. We can argue all day long if this is a peak, plateau, or just a stop on to 100 million. However, we can say with certainty that we are not making the investments needed to move this number in any meaningful way.

As a planet we will consume until we hit 87 million and then prices will rise very quickly until we displace the least efficient users in market based economies. Non market based economies deal with high prices through shortages.

In reality, when the price spikes we go into recession and destroy more demand than needed and prices collapse. We can either figure out a national policy that will accomplish an orderly improvement in our usage or we can let the market work through a series of recessions and stagnation.

I think we all know that this is beyond our leader’s capabilities to help solve through smart policy and in the end we will undulate between feast and famine.

Very Cheery thoughts,,, I know

Robert

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #26 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:56 pm »

Mojave,

You make a good point.

The opportunity for reduction in pollution and dependancy on oil is all of those people on the road in a big gas guzzler with just one person commuting to work.

The average use per day in America for an automobile is 25 miles. The biggest bang for the buck is the 100% electric car for around town use.

We just began to build a 100% electric SUV taxi that seats 5 to replace the government controlled gas taxi business in major Chinese cities like Hong Kong and Shanghai.

We just built a 100% electric US Postal Service Van for thier evaluation. It is currently being used on an everyday basis by them for testing. These postal trucks don't drive very far on an everyday basis.

It is the short trip vehicles that will jump start the market and the technology leaps in electric cars and trucks.

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #27 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:59 pm »

Robert,

When you look at your graph you see the relationhip between the price of oil and use.

Steve

Danny Richie · « **Reply #28 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 06:10 pm »

Just an FYI of interest for the day.

I am in Texas. We have just been hit with a hard winter storm just like most of the rest of the country. Heavy snow fall for us is unusual, but we got some.

Now we use a lot of natural gas here in Texas so our heating bills are pretty low. And when it gets really cold we don't hit the grid for heating like many states do.

However, today we are having controlled rolling Black outs to keep from overloading the grid. So we will loose power for 15 to 40 minutes at a time today and possibly tomorrow off and on throughout the day.

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #29 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 06:12 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 2 Feb 2011, 05:38 pm

Making people that can't afford it to begin with to have to pay more for energy doesn't solve anything. Without real solutions to go to it does nothing but cost people more money. The way to entice is with incentive. Solutions have to be in place and options with an attractive price.

As gas prices increase the market for more efficient automobiles will follow. The incentives need to be in research and development here in the US in battery technology "Nano Lithium" and lightweight crash systems. Or to be political as Obama calls them "Investments".

When gas prices hit above $4.00 a gallon the economy crashed for the automotive market. Car makers were still pushing bigger is better and safer modes of transportation when this happened. Car manufacturers are rushing to meet the pent up demand for more fuel efficient cars. I hope big oil doesn't pull the trigger on thier next round of profiteering before the market is ready.

jtwrace · « **Reply #30 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 06:13 pm »

Quote from: Cheeseboy on 2 Feb 2011, 05:32 pm

The roll cage, seat and safety belt systems were built to meet "NASCAR" crash and rollover specifications. This makes that car heavier than it really needs to be. When designing an electric car weight is your enemy.

I highly doubt that. What "spec" is that?

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #31 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 06:23 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 2 Feb 2011, 06:10 pm

Just an FYI of interest for the day.

I am in Texas. We have just been hit with a hard winter storm just like most of the rest of the country. Heavy snow fall for us is unusual, but we got some.

Now we use a lot of natural gas here in Texas so our heating bills are pretty low. And when it gets really cold we don't hit the grid for heating like many states do.

However, today we are having controlled rolling Black outs to keep from overloading the grid. So we will loose power for 15 to 40 minutes at a time today and possibly tomorrow off and on throughout the day.

Texan are the most independent thinkers here in the US. I think the cities counsels in your neighborhood will be challenged the most for personal wind tubine systems to sell back electricity.

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #32 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 06:28 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 2 Feb 2011, 06:13 pm

I highly doubt that. What "spec" is that?

Not the car itself but the cage for driver protection only. Sorry to use the word spec. You are likely to be correct. There may not be a spec. You must know alot more than I. May I say a NASCARlike drivers cage?

jtwrace · « **Reply #33 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 06:36 pm »

Quote from: Cheeseboy on 2 Feb 2011, 06:28 pm

Not the car itself but the cage for driver protection only. Sorry to use the word spec. You are likely to be correct. There may not be a spec. You must know alot more than I. May I say a NASCARlike drivers cage?

I know the car isn't the same...I see 'em everyday. The only "spec" are rules. DOT crash tests are way different then any race organization (FIA, NASCAR, SCCA etc) not to say better but different.

What you have is a NASCAR style cage. Every car has a roll cage (safety zone)...you just can't see them on the average road car.

This is what a NASCAR Cup chassis looks like.

Cheeseboy · « **Reply #34 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 07:14 pm »

There is no doubt that you know race cars. The Alias that we entered into the XPrize competition has an extensive driver protection cage, constructed of metal tubing in it that was engineered by one of our design team that has extensive race engineering experience. The cage does not extend past the gas pedal like the car shown in your picture. It added a significant amount of additional weight to the vehicle. There is nothing DOT about it.

The Alias body and frame was designed by Lotus Engineering. It is a hyperlight type of design. The cage was an add on for the purpose of driver protection. We wanted Al Unser Jr. to feel at home in the car.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #35 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 07:43 pm »

HI,
In recent years I have seen almost daily on TV news and web car sites a ceaseless rain of pay merchandising and press releases forcing people to accept these electric cars.

The idea that they show is that these cars are perfect, and that do not pollute and do not use gasoline means money in pocket of the driver.

But nobody ever said how much(money) it costs to recharge the huge battery of these cars and also how many recharges these batteries can take before going to the waste bin pollute too.
Regards, Gustavo

> Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a cat or dog from the street. On the streets pets live only two years average.

jtwrace · « **Reply #36 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 07:55 pm »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 2 Feb 2011, 07:43 pm

But nobody ever said how much(money) it costs to recharge the huge battery of these cars and also how many recharges these batteries can take before going to the waste bin pollute too.

Actually they have...you never saw the trace of the battery manufacturing of the Prius batteries? It's amazing how much they pollute the earth before even using them.

Certainly charging has issues too. Not only from pollution but also the lack of infrastructure. Just imagine every big city needing charging stations in every spot or fast (5min) charger / batteries.

This is why I continue to ask my question and get this look

Q:
If we have synthetic oil, why can't we have synthetic gasoline?

A:

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #37 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 08:10 pm »

The gasoline in my country is one of the most expensive in the world, a litre costs 1.50 US dollar, 53% of that price is taxes.
Electricity are the fifth most expensive in the world here, 1 kW costs 0.30 US dollar.
Seems both electric and gas cars fuel are expensive.
Regards, Gustavo

> Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a cat or dog from the street. On the streets pets live only two years average.

PDR · « **Reply #38 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 08:16 pm »

Oil isnt just used to produce fuels.....almost everything from plastics to coffee creamers.
You would be amazed at what is made from by products.

I think that climate would be a hugh factor at the success of electric vehicles....perhaps more of a seasonal vehicle for a lot of people.

I am sitting in the middle of the oils sands in Northern Alberta as I type this. You just have to look around
and take stock of the players and the amount of dollars invested to see that there is no worries on the
part of producers that electrics are taking over anytime soon.

Something else to consider....not all crude is the same....some is much easier and more pollution friendly
to convert. The oil from overseas is a much different product than what is produced here.

With the economy the way it is today...it might make more sense to get people back to work in large numbers using technology that can produce thousands of jobs right now, not in the future.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #39 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 08:24 pm »

Hoping that hybrids are not too far off topic, there's this new VW. Looks good, too!

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/01/vw-xl1-concept-car/

http://tinyurl.com/6z6ypfy