[S Clark]

Dave,
I have the original 27 year old outlets in my house.  There has been lots said about this one and that regarding outlets, with apparently different members touting their particular favorites.  What are your thoughts concerning upgrading the standard outlets in the house.  Upgrades appear to vary from $7.50 to $250 per outlet.  Also, how does cryo treatment affect outlets and sound?

Scott

[dBe]

Dave,
I have the original 27 year old outlets in my house.  There has been lots said about this one and that regarding outlets, with apparently different members touting their particular favorites.  What are your thoughts concerning upgrading the standard outlets in the house.  Upgrades appear to vary from $7.50 to $250 per outlet.  Also, how does cryo treatment affect outlets and sound?

Scott

Outlets are a great topic and a bigger source for controversy.  I'll dive in and tell you what I have experienced in the many years of trying everything out there.  Remember that some of this will be from the standpoint of personal taste.  Most of it will be from a nuts and blots point of view.

When you read about a house fire that resulted from "faulty wiring" a large percentage of the time this will be a problem at the outlet.  Over the years heating and cooling cycles during the change of seasons as well as the heating that occurs under load will loosen the screws that hold the wire in place at the receptacle.  The purpose of the screw is to provide a gas tight mechanical connection between the conductors and the receptacle.  When the connection is loosened by the expansion/contraction phase of heating/cooling oxides will form around the conductor and on the receptacle body.  The majority of the oxide is cupric oxide which is semiconductor at very best and a nonconductor under most cases.  A small portion will be cuprous oxide which is a better, but not great conductor (except at deep cryogenic temperatures).  In salt water regions corrosion and oxide formation is more complex and much faster.  When these oxides form in conjunction with loosening of the mechanical fastener, a vicious cycle is created that generates more heat, which generates more oxidation which generates more heat, which.... you get my drift.

Back to your house with 27 year old receptacles.  I would take the time to go around the house and check each receptacle.  Turn off the circuit breaker for each receptacle and do two things:  1 - check each outlet for tightness on a plug.  Loose ones will have big oxide deposits and should be replaced.  Often time this is where the danger lies.  2 - remove the coverplate  (remember: TURN OFF THE CIRCUIT BREAKER and check to make sure that the recpetacle is really dead electrically     ) and remove the receptacle from the wall.  Check for tightness of the screws and especially for black deposits on the wire.  If necessary clean the wire with emery cloth and reinstall the wire making sure you really squeek down the screw.  I would bet that you will find many receptacles that will take a good 3/4 - 1 turn to tighten them.  I do this every couple of years in my house and every 6 months or so in the listening/media room.  It is amazing how much better the audio system sounds and the video looks with clean tight receptacles.

Receptacles.  Everyone seems to have their personal favorites with Hubbell and Pass & Seymour/LeGrand being the front runners.  I never saw a Cooper that I liked for audio, personally.  My choice is Pass & Seymour (YMMV).  I use Pass & Seymour Heavy Duty Specification Grade 5262 (15A) and 5362(20A) units in my products.  They have .032 triple wipe line contacts and I have found them to be of consistently high quality.  My selection for special applications are the 5262A and 5362A Extra Hard Use Specification versions.  They have .036 triple wipe contacts, but are 8 times as expensive as the Spec Grades.  They do have a death grip on the plug, though.

Speaking of the "death grip": this is not a good thing when it comes to highly polished rare metal plated plugs.  Furutech, for example, has receptacles that seem to have relatively low tension on the contacts.  If you will take a look at the plug contact you will understand why.  The plugs have a very high polish and are usually plated with gold or rhodium.  Inserting the plug into a high pressure receptacle will deform the soft alloy of the plug blade and begin to scour the plating off of the blade.  This is not a good thing.  For this reason, I recommend that Furutech receptacle be used with Furutech plugs.  Same goes for Oyaide and the other exotics.  We need to use our heads when it comes to what goes into what when it comes to electrical connections as in life.

The topic of gold/copper/silver/rhodium is another topic.  We can go there, but it should be in another thread.  I personally think that a very high quality standard receptacle/plug combo will serve 80% of most audio requirements.  The exotics are best left to the final tweaking stage as they tend to be tone and detail controls.

Cryo:  you had to ask, didn't you?     Here is where the bugs come out of the woodwork in most discussions.  The following is my experience and should be taken as such.  If you already think I'm crazy then this will cement that opinion.  If not - read on.

I have never heard a cryo treated component that sounded worse after treatment.  90% of the time it (whatever "it" is) will sound better.  10% of the time I scratch my head and can't quite put my thumb on it.  It always sounds different, just 90% of the time is that different "better".  In my experience, cryo treatment will make the piece sound clearer, cleaner and with a rounding (fullness) of timbre.  This is not to say less detail, far from it.  The detail is richer and smoother with more flesh and less glare.  I have never heard cryo treatment produce profound changes.  A profound change is going from a Bloze Wave Radio to a really good audio system.  The changes run from very subtle to mild depending upon the resolution of the system.  In systems with great resolving power changes are less subtle and more textural in scope. 

I like cryo.  I have cryoed the receptacles and the conductors in my products from the beginning.  The treatment made them sound a little bit better.  It is those little bits adding up that can make that system sound very special.  I think that is why we are here (hear?), no?

Back to the shop.

HTH

Dave

[Elizabeth]

very nice answer from Dave. Thanks
(I live in apartment dwellings, and every time I move to a new apt i always change ALL the outlets in the apt with the $3 variety of Pass & Seymour outlets, I would recommend replacing all the more heavily used outlets in the house if they are all 27 years old with new $2.50 or so outlets. Just so they are the better normal Menard's or where-ever outlets. PS avoid Levitron, thier newer ones are really getting to be junk. Go for Hubble or Pass & Seymour. good luck)

[blakep]

I did some fairly extensive experimentation with outlets about 8 years ago. I have not experimented with any of the really pricey boutique receptacles but tend to agree with the idea that various platings essentially offer a type of "tone control" situation. Nickel plating (and therefore most, but not all hospital grades) should be avoided IMO as the nickel in particular tends to hype high frequencies (some might hear this as added detail-I think it's just distortion) and push the midrange forward.

I would agree with the above post that cryo is a very worthwhile endeavor when it comes to not only outlets, but any wire used in an audio system. I've also experimented extensively with cryo, having a local cryo vendor. It is a cheap and very effective tweak (if you have that local cryo vendor) when it comes to wire or receptacles. Every IC/speaker cable/receptacle in my system has been cryoed.

Be aware, though, that cryoed wire and receptacles have a fairly lengthy break in period. If you cryo a receptacle and it is not conditioned, be prepared for a month to pass by before you hear what the receptacle is really capable of. The alternative is to slot the receptacle into a position where you can run a refrigerator or chest freezer on each half of the receptacle for about 7-10 days. Power cords can be burned in the same way with a $5 adaptor. With speaker cables and IC's, I'd recommend something like the Nordost cable cooker or Audiodharma cable cooker.

I never really warmed up to the sound of the Pass and Seymours and ultimately settled on cryoed Hubbell 5262 and 8200H (a slimline hospital grade with non-plated contacts) which I have had cryoed. It appears that the 8200H is no longer being built to the same spec so I can't really recommend it without having a bit more knowledge or investigating it. I'd probably still look at the Hubbell 5262 and for possibly a bit more money the new Pass and Seymour 8200 MRI would be something I'd investigate. It is a purpose built hospital grade with non plated contacts and no ferrous metal anywhere in the receptacle (including screws) designed to be used with very sensitive MRI equipment. All of the above features make it a prime candidate to be a pretty good receptacle for audio/video applications.

[S Clark]

Thanks for all suggestions.  I can't find the Hubbell 8200H available and have a cryoed P&S 5262 on the way - courtesy of Dave  .  I'll find a source for the plain ones then and report back comparing the cryo effects

[satfrat]

Thanks for all suggestions.  I can't find the Hubbell 8200H available and have a cryoed P&S 5262 on the way - courtesy of Dave  .  I'll find a source for the plain ones then and report back comparing the cryo effects

Why don't you just get an uncryoed P&S duplex from Dave?

[S Clark]

Why don't you just get an uncryoed P&S duplex from Dave?

Don't see them for sale on his web site... and he has already been more than generous.

[blakep]

Thanks for all suggestions.  I can't find the Hubbell 8200H available and have a cryoed P&S 5262 on the way - courtesy of Dave  .  I'll find a source for the plain ones then and report back comparing the cryo effects

From going online, it's unclear to me whether the 8200H would be a good choice at this time. If you want to source a decent Hubbell (which would also be an excellent candidate for cryoing) simply order an HBL 5262. Be sure you order that specific model from an electric supply house; Hubbell has other cheaper receptacles with different prefixes-for example CR 5262.

The HBL 5262 is a very good receptacle and IME has a sonic signature quite a bit different than the P&S.

[dBe]

Why don't you just get an uncryoed P&S duplex from Dave?

Right now I don't have any uncryoed versions on hand.  Everything that I have has had the "treatment".  Maybe when I buy the next 100.

Dave

[dBe]

From going online, it's unclear to me whether the 8200H would be a good choice at this time. If you want to source a decent Hubbell (which would also be an excellent candidate for cryoing) simply order an HBL 5262. Be sure you order that specific model from an electric supply house; Hubbell has other cheaper receptacles with different prefixes-for example CR 5262.

The HBL 5262 is a very good receptacle and IME has a sonic signature quite a bit different than the P&S.

I settled upon the Pass & Seymours for reasons that will probably be why you did not prefer them.  The non-cryo Pass & Seymour are a bit bright and forward in presentation in comparison with the non-cryo Hubbell.  After the cryo process the Pass & Seymour is much more relaxed after break-in.  The Hubbell is very round sounding with great bass and LF articulation.  After extended break-in, the P&S and HBL are closer with the edge in detail going to the P&S and sweetness going to the HBL. 

It is for this reason that I use the P&S: they sound better with less than stellar interconnects in the system.  When the entire system is brought up a couple of levels all bets are off and I recommend different receptacles entirely based upon the rest of the system and the musical preferences of the listener.

I'm with you: nickel plating is not musical.  I dont like the PS Audio standard Power Ports for this reason, but I do like the gold plated versions in some applications.

The reason that I do not use the Hubbell units is twofold.  One is that I have a stocking distributor for the P&S that can always tell me the origin of their units.  Second, the Hubbell distributor here does not have consistent stock  with quality being variable depending upon the manufacturing plant origin.  Some of them just plain suck and you don't know until you listen to them.  As a small businessman, I cannot afford to produce inconsistent product.

A very effective tweak for the P&S is to replace the nickel plated steel Neutral screw with a brass one.  That pretty much mitigates the brightness of the unit.  Be SURE to mark the Hot screw with a black marker or paint to keep the polarity straight.

Thanks for the excellent input.  Positive posts are always a very good thing when it comes to sharing knowledge and experience.

Dave

[S Clark]

It absolutely continues to amaze me how everything affects sound.  Even for those of us with old ears, so much of what makes music sound more real resides in these little details.  What a fascinating world we live in. 

[blakep]

I settled upon the Pass & Seymours for reasons that will probably be why you did not prefer them.  The non-cryo Pass & Seymour are a bit bright and forward in presentation in comparison with the non-cryo Hubbell.  After the cryo process the Pass & Seymour is much more relaxed after break-in.  The Hubbell is very round sounding with great bass and LF articulation.  After extended break-in, the P&S and HBL are closer with the edge in detail going to the P&S and sweetness going to the HBL. 

It is for this reason that I use the P&S: they sound better with less than stellar interconnects in the system.  When the entire system is brought up a couple of levels all bets are off and I recommend different receptacles entirely based upon the rest of the system and the musical preferences of the listener.

I'm with you: nickel plating is not musical.  I dont like the PS Audio standard Power Ports for this reason, but I do like the gold plated versions in some applications.

The reason that I do not use the Hubbell units is twofold.  One is that I have a stocking distributor for the P&S that can always tell me the origin of their units.  Second, the Hubbell distributor here does not have consistent stock  with quality being variable depending upon the manufacturing plant origin.  Some of them just plain suck and you don't know until you listen to them.  As a small businessman, I cannot afford to produce inconsistent product.

A very effective tweak for the P&S is to replace the nickel plated steel Neutral screw with a brass one.  That pretty much mitigates the brightness of the unit.  Be SURE to mark the Hot screw with a black marker or paint to keep the polarity straight.

Thanks for the excellent input.  Positive posts are always a very good thing when it comes to sharing knowledge and experience.

Dave

No problem Dave. Ultimately I don't think there is any right or wrong choice in terms of receptacles; in the end it will boil down to system synergy and quite possibly the type of sound that a listener desires. This is a pretty subjective hobby and what's great for someone is not so great for someone else.

I did a lot of experimentation but it was pushing 8 years ago; when it got down to the nitty gritty, I did listen to both the Hubbells and the P & S, both cryoed and stock. I remember now avoiding the nickel plated screws; my current installation of the Hubbells has avoided them as well.

The effects of receptacles are cumulative (as I'm sure you are aware) so it's hard to get a handle on what a receptacle is doing unless you slot the same receptacle into the whole system (ie. multiple receptacles that the system is drawing from, line conditioners, etc.). This is something that most people never even think about.

I understand your position clearly and time has marched on; it appears that Hubbell is no longer doing the slimline 8200H with generally non ferrous materials and non-plated contacts. I know that Gene at Takefiveaudio has moved to the P&S MRI receptacle because of this and I respect his opinion on things and that one does hold a bit of fascination for me but at this stage I'm reasonably happy with my system and don't have the time to start ripping the receptacles out of my line conditioner and replacing them, as well as burning in new receptacles etc.

It is surpising , though, for many people just what receptacles can do. I view cryoed receptacles as one of the bigger bang for the buck tweaks in the hobby.

[dBe]

It absolutely continues to amaze me how everything affects sound.  Even for those of us with old ears, so much of what makes music sound more real resides in these little details.  What a fascinating world we live in.

Yeah.  Who knew, huh?   

Dave

[dBe]

No problem Dave. Ultimately I don't think there is any right or wrong choice in terms of receptacles; in the end it will boil down to system synergy and quite possibly the type of sound that a listener desires. This is a pretty subjective hobby and what's great for someone is not so great for someone else.

I did a lot of experimentation but it was pushing 8 years ago; when it got down to the nitty gritty, I did listen to both the Hubbells and the P & S, both cryoed and stock. I remember now avoiding the nickel plated screws; my current installation of the Hubbells has avoided them as well.

The effects of receptacles are cumulative (as I'm sure you are aware) so it's hard to get a handle on what a receptacle is doing unless you slot the same receptacle into the whole system (ie. multiple receptacles that the system is drawing from, line conditioners, etc.). This is something that most people never even think about.

I understand your position clearly and time has marched on; it appears that Hubbell is no longer doing the slimline 8200H with generally non ferrous materials and non-plated contacts. I know that Gene at Takefiveaudio has moved to the P&S MRI receptacle because of this and I respect his opinion on things and that one does hold a bit of fascination for me but at this stage I'm reasonably happy with my system and don't have the time to start ripping the receptacles out of my line conditioner and replacing them, as well as burning in new receptacles etc.

It is surpising , though, for many people just what receptacles can do. I view cryoed receptacles as one of the bigger bang for the buck tweaks in the hobby.

One of the things that I like about audio is that there is something here for everyone - including us inveterate tweeks.

Like you say, time marches on.  One of the sad commentaries on our present day is just how bad some of the old mainstays of industry have become junk.  I remember when DeWalt tools were the only ones to have.  Hitachi is making some great stuff.

When it comes down to what I would call a full blown system (one where the owner has clearly lost his/her mind  ) it is the little things that suddenly become interesting and pertinent.  It is system details that make the musical details suddenly full of beauty.  I like that.

I also like the fact that you commented on one of the receptacles (the Hubbell, in this case) being quieter.  That is what this place is about:  getting the noise out of the way of the music.

Dave

[dBe]

It absolutely continues to amaze me how everything affects sound.  Even for those of us with old ears, so much of what makes music sound more real resides in these little details.  What a fascinating world we live in.

Scott, don't buy any receptacles.  I picked up some today for comparison purposes.

Dave

[S Clark]

You are the MAN, Dave!!!

[dBe]

You are the MAN, Dave!!!

At least one of many.

Dave

[S Clark]

I'll be posting a comparison of cryo to non cryo Pass and Seymour5362-I spec grade outlets that Dave sent me.  I'll rig a double outlet box so that they will both be in the same place in the house wiring.  In the meantime, I just had to jump ahead and put the cryo-ed unit in to take a quick late night listen, and there are clear differences, similar to upgrading interconnects. 

Listening to Lyle Lovette Joshua Judges Ruth, I noticed a bit of space between smeared piano notes (where the pianist hits two keys with one finger) that hadn't been there before and piano timbre was more like a piano.   In the song Church, a few more of the individual claps localized than before.  On the  song Dakota, the opening percussion was more clearly defined in space, with the opening note above and right of the second strike.  Sound stage deepened, but did not increase in width.  Vocals moved noticeably to the forefront.  Also they increased in detail.  Upper percussion clearly increased detail. 

All in all, the cryo-ed outlet made a noticeable difference in my room.  More notes to come after I have built the comparison outlet.

Speakers- GR-Research Neo2x with sub turned off
source- Cambridge 640C with battery powered Monica Dac
Amp-  Upgraded Moscode 300
Preamp- Dodd Battery Preamp
Cables- PC, IC, and SC Electra Cables

[jimdgoulding]

Scott, wish I could conduct that comparison.  I'd blindfold yer hiney.  My God, is there no point where there isn't a discernable difference?  And if there is, what of it?  What does it mean to where you sit, listen, and commune.  We need help.

[S Clark]

Scott, wish I could conduct that comparison.  I'd blindfold yer hiney.  My God, is there no point where there isn't a discernable difference?  And if there is, what of it?  What does it mean to where you sit, listen, and commune.  We need help.

I know what you mean, Jim.  It's all that d#%@* Danny Richie's fault.  If I hadn't gone to listen to his rig many moons ago, I'd be happily listening to my old Sherwood receiver and 1970's Design Acoustics speakers, all happily fed by my Teac RTR.   I don't know yet if it is simply the outlet upgrade or the cryo that is the key difference, but it it wasn't all that subtle.  And I share your note of desperation, does this never end  ?