Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released

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LesterSleepsIn

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Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« on: 7 Jun 2018, 11:27 pm »
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/07/arts/music/john-coltrane-lost-album-both-directions-at-once.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

“Both Directions at Once: The Lost Album” was cut by the saxophonist’s classic quartet two years before “A Love Supreme.” Then it was stashed away.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #1 on: 7 Jun 2018, 11:45 pm »
Good news, this one took forever.

richidoo

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #2 on: 8 Jun 2018, 03:18 am »
That should be exciting. Vinyl too.  :green:

rockadanny

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #3 on: 8 Jun 2018, 01:30 pm »
Sweet! Thanks for posting!  :thumb:

Edit: Pre-ordered the Deluxe version (2-CDs) from Amazon.  :eyebrows:
« Last Edit: 8 Jun 2018, 07:29 pm by rockadanny »

dB Cooper

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #4 on: 14 Jun 2018, 09:37 am »
The good news: A lost Coltrane album is about to be released.

More good news: 'Untitled original 11383' is out now as a single and you should be able to find it on all the streaming sites.

Still more good news: It's really good music.

Not-as-good news: According to one article, the discovered tape was a 1/4" reel (speed not specified, 7-1/2 ips is a safe bet), which means that it's not an original studio master or even safety copy, either of which would have been on 1/2" tape at 15 or 30 ips. That means it's at least a 3rd gen copy. It's listenable (I listened on Tidal 'Hi Fi' lossless) but the SQ is not quite on the level of his other releases done from earlier generation masters, despite the fact that they seem to have been able to do some 'cleanup' (tape hiss is not obtrusive). It shows up most as rather flat dynamics. It's also mono. Oh well, you can't have everything. Still a major 'find' for the 'Trane lover. If this track is any indication, you'll love it as long as your SQ expectations aren't unrealistic.
« Last Edit: 14 Jun 2018, 10:51 am by dB Cooper »

FullRangeMan

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Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #5 on: 14 Jun 2018, 11:18 am »
I have never knew a big label as RCA or CBS rec in 15 or 30ips, they all used 7.5ips at max, Sheffield used 30ips, Proprius from Sweden used 15ips as they informed in the albums.

dB Cooper

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #6 on: 14 Jun 2018, 06:28 pm »
According to Wikipedia, 7-1/2ips was the slowest commonly used speed for half-inch pro recorders. (Quarter-inch, 7-1/2ips was a consumer format.) Majors recording on half-inch or large tape width and 10-1/2" reels would have used 15ips AFAIK, especially in the pre-NR era, judging by articles I have read by recording engineers. I welcome anybody who has actual experience in the field correcting this if in error.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #7 on: 14 Jun 2018, 07:59 pm »
Maybe Wiki are referring to audio brands as Revox, Studer, Telefunken, Tascan, but RCA was a giant electronic industry that happen to own a music division and plenty of rec studios, so they were able to made his own audio equipment inclusive recorders to various tape speeds.
« Last Edit: 14 Jun 2018, 09:01 pm by FullRangeMan »

dB Cooper

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #8 on: 14 Jun 2018, 08:58 pm »



Ummm... WTF does RCA have to do with a Coltrane release on Impulse? Are you aware of some RCA involvement that no one else is?



dB Cooper

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #9 on: 14 Jun 2018, 09:09 pm »
Downbeat had a good article too, with more 'background' than the NYT article:
http://downbeat.com/news/detail/coltranes-lost-studio-album-found

FullRangeMan

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Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #10 on: 14 Jun 2018, 09:10 pm »
Until 2005 I saw the State TV of my state recording famous artists in mono :duh:
A few years later I discovered that the mike technician of this TV station was the ex-doorkeeper of the station building that was promoted to audio enginering...

That black guy was a great doorkeeper he stand 1.90M and over 100kg.
This is how things works in pro-audio, for this pro-audio guys hate audiophiles;

doorman

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #11 on: 14 Jun 2018, 11:22 pm »
Until 2005 I saw the State TV of my state recording famous artists in mono :duh:
A few years later I discovered that the mike technician of this TV station was the ex-doorkeeper of the station building that was promoted to audio enginering...

That black guy was a great doorkeeper he stand 1.90M and over 100kg.
This is how things works in pro-audio, for this pro-audio guys hate audiophiles;
What does the “doorkeepers” colour have to do with anything ?

dB Cooper

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #12 on: 15 Jun 2018, 02:53 am »
What does any of that have to do with anything?  :scratch:

At any rate, I contacted Mark Waldrep with the tape speed question. For those who don't know who he is, Mr. Waldrep is a well-known recording engineer whose 40+-year career has included projects involving the Allman Brothers, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, and Paul Rodgers of Bad Company among others. He holds a PhD in audio engineering and has taught the subject in the California university system for years in addition to operating his own recording studio and being an author and lecturer on audio topics. Here's his take on the likely specs of the lost original studio masters:

"The studio machines back in the 1960s would have been 7.5 or 15 ips machines. Most masters were made at 15 ips. Consumer copies were made at 7.5. An important project like John Coltrane would have pretty much guaranteed the higher speed."


I don't know what the doorkeeper at  FRM's local TV station would have thought about this question, but for now I'm favoring Waldrep's guess.

Since the album will be available to stream, I doubt I'll purchase a hard copy given the so-so SQ. But having this material available even in mediocre SQ is better than not having it at all.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #13 on: 15 Jun 2018, 01:42 pm »
Nice to know it, I have two Proprius church organ sacds allegedly 15ips and both have tape his in my FR driver.

richidoo

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #14 on: 15 Jun 2018, 06:44 pm »
It was recorded at Rudy's on Ampex 300 which was 1/4", 7.5 or 15 ips.

dB Cooper

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #15 on: 16 Jun 2018, 02:11 am »
Nice to know it, I have two Proprius church organ sacds allegedly 15ips and both have tape his in my FR driver.

Even 15ips not completely immune from hiss, especially in pre-NR days. All it takes is a slightly dirty or improperly demagnetized head etc. Or that particular release may have been cut from a later generation tape or something. Probably more of an issue with classical material which has actual quiet passages. Original 'Abraxas' had very audible tape hiss; I've had some noisy albums. I've noticed that a lot of jazz tunes from that era tend to end kind of abruptly, without any kind of fadeout, and I have always suspected this was why. The technicalities of the medium changed the way the music was played.

Sad to read in the Downbeat article that the original tape was probably just pitched in a dumpster because some beancounter at ABC was trying to cut the storage bill...

dB Cooper

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #16 on: 16 Jun 2018, 03:06 am »
It was recorded at Rudy's on Ampex 300 which was 1/4", 7.5 or 15 ips.

I googled the Ampex 300 and found that it was a mono tape machine introduced in 1949 (I found no reference to a stereo version). Wasn't Trane being recorded in stereo by then, despite the fact that many albums were released in both formats?

Had a claimed FR of 50-15K +/- 2dB at 15ips. Only 7.5K at 7.5ips. Hence the 15ips for masters. Presumably the 7.5ips version Coltrane took home would have had similar specs at the high end, and judging by the one track released so far, that sounds about right.

I did find this one picture of a machine that is supposedly a 300 but with two meters; the reels look like 1/2" though (remember, these are 10-1/2" reels)...




dB Cooper

Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #17 on: 30 Jun 2018, 01:31 am »
Here's another review that gives some good context to how the material on this release relates to Coltrane's other work of that era.

McCoy Tyner is the last person 'in the room' still alive but I have seen no sign of any interviews, which makes me wonder if he has health problems. I hope not.

LesterSleepsIn

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Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #18 on: 30 Jun 2018, 02:05 am »

McCoy Tyner is the last person 'in the room' still alive but I have seen no sign of any interviews, which makes me wonder if he has health problems. I hope not.

He has a full year of touring planned with the next stop at the Blue Note/NYC at the end of the month.
He's something else to see, especially solo. I've had the pleasure several times but the most memorable was with the then young lion Azar Lawrence. Outstanding!

Can't wait to get the new recording, now on order.

Cheers, Lester

FullRangeMan

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Re: Lost 1963 Coltrane album to be released
« Reply #19 on: 30 Jun 2018, 02:06 am »
It could be interesting to know if it was recorded in Stereo.