preamp or amp upgrade

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Thunder240

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preamp or amp upgrade
« on: 19 May 2018, 11:15 pm »
Hi folks,

I’m looking for advice regarding whether I’d be better off spending a 1000-1500 budget on upgrades to my Odyssey Stratos Stereo Plus or replacing my preamp.

Current system
Source: NAS drive running Kodi Krypton
Digital transport: Raspberry Pi 3B with Hifiberry Digi+ Pro and iFi iPower
DAC: Hegel HD12
Preamp: Nuforce Icon HDP with Teradak linear power supply
Active crossover: Marchand XM66
Power amp: Odyssey Stratos Stereo Plus (Klaus told me that he made some upgrades to the board at the time of my original purchase, but I’m not sure what they are)
Speakers: Philharmonic BMR monitors
Sub: Outlaw LFM-1 EX
Cables: DH Labs interconnects and speaker cables (BL-1 series 2, Q-14, D-750), Shunyata Venom power cables
Power distribution: Panamax  M4300-PM

What I’m trying to achieve: I know my speakers have the potential to be incredibly revealing. I demoed them at the home of the speaker designer, Dennis Murphy, and heard what they can do. My system in its current state is about 95%. Detail and soundstage are outstanding, but there is a certain edginess that I’d like to be rid of, while ideally getting a sound that’s a little more holographic at least on high quality live live recordings.

My thinking is that the weak link is the Nuforce preamp. It’s actually a DAC, class A solid state preamp, and headphone amp all in one. I am bypassing the inferior DAC stage with the Hegel. Things got a little better when I gave it a cheap Chinese linear PSU (to replace the OEM cheap Chinese switching PSU), but the difference wasn’t huge. I’ve read how well the Odyssey does with tube preamps, and hypothesized that a good tube pre that doesn’t give up any detail might be just what I need.

Yesterday I picked up a Rogue RP-1 demo unit from my local dealer (already broken in). After about 3 hrs of listening, I can safely say I prefer my Nuforce. The Rogue is a touch sweeter sounding (in a good way), and it does shave off the extra edginess, but I am missing some of the inner detail that I can hear through the Nuforce. Also, the sound of well recorded live music is no more holographic, if anything it is less! While I wouldn’t used the word “veiled” to describe it in absolute terms, there is something extra  between me and the music that wasn’t there before. And the RP-1, according to several pro reviews I’ve read, is one of the more revealing tube pres in my price range (actually a bit more than my price range, at 1695).

Possibilities:

- The RP- 1 just isn’t the right tube pre for my system. There are certainly others at my price point (Quicksilver Line Stage, Doge 8, LTA MZ-2, AVA Transcendence) and slightly above (Candela, AVA FET Valve, Prima Luna Prologue, Modwright SWL 9.0, and lots of others I’m sure). I can keep looking for demo opportunities til I find the right one for me.

- Perhaps tube gear just isn’t for me, and what I really need is a SS pre that is more refined than my current Nuforce. Certainly there are plenty of those.

- It may be that I misdiagnosed the issue, and what I really need is to give my Stratos some love and have Klaus upgrade it to an Extreme or even a Kismet board.

- some other ingredient of my system is the weak link. I am doubtful that there are any cost effective true upgrades, except possibly the Panamax power distribution, but I’m open to ideas


Anyhow, thoughts? I know there are plenty of happy owners of Stratos Extreme and Kismet amps on this board.  I’d ask that you only push me that direction if you’ve also heard the Plus and so have some first hand knowledge of the improvement those upgrades offer (or Extreme -> Kismet). I’d also love to hear from anyone with both SS and tube pre experience with their Odyssey amp.

Thanks!

charmerci

Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #1 on: 19 May 2018, 11:31 pm »
AS someone with the New Philharmonitor, I can tell you that you will be hearing shortcomings from upstream of your system. I assume that edginess that you are talking about mainly comes at higher volumes? A lot of that is the elephant that is your room! GIK or DIY panels/traps are very often recommended.

Thunder240

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #2 on: 20 May 2018, 12:26 am »
charmerci, no doubt my room could be improved, and perhaps that’s the lowest hanging fruit. But I don’t think this edginess per se is entirely due to the  room, since this Rogue pre maned to soften it (and then some). Also, I rarely listen at high volumes. It’s noticeable at ‘normal’ listening levels.

Honestly, the reasons I haven’t seriously considered putting my audio cash room treatments are

- the system lives in the living room, and my wife would have to approve of their appearance and placement

- I have no idea how to figure out what I need or where to put it

- the room is open on one side with a fireplace making an odd L shaped corner , and on the other are wall to wall curtains covering glass, so definitely wonky

- buying speakers and electronics is more fun

I’d need to find a local pro who can look at a room and figure out what type of treatments I need and where they go, and by the time I’m finished paying his or her bill and then making the treatments look attractive, I’m guessing I’ll be in for a lot more than my budget.

But maybe that’s a bad assumption?

OSIB16

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #3 on: 20 May 2018, 03:33 am »
You can bypass a Preamp altogether by connecting your DAC directly to your Desktop PC. Then use the volume control attenuator built into the PC (Windows 10). You'll probably hear an increase in transparency with no Preamp in the chain.

Early B.

Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #4 on: 20 May 2018, 05:01 am »
You should consider simplifying your system. Keep it simple (an active crossover???). There's too many places where you have to make excessive trade-offs within your budget. 

Before you go down the rabbit hole of trading out equipment, develop a plan. If you don't have a game plan, you'll be flipping gear forever.   

Thunder240

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #5 on: 20 May 2018, 05:45 am »
@ OSIB16 Assume you mean that I should use my DAC’s built-in volume control and go direct from the DAC to crossover?

I’ve tried this. The Hegel DAC uses digital attenuation, and at low and moderate volumes skads of detail are lost. I actually added the Nuforce unit, which I discovered I had in storage from an old desktop headphone rig from my days as a grad student, in order to provide a means of controlling my volume in the analog domain, and I was pleasantly surprised that it sounds as good as it does as a stereo preamp. (I also tried a passive attenuator, but it sounded dry.) This system needs a preamp.

@EarlyB, it sounds like you think I have an upgrade problem! Maybe I do and maybe I don’t, but this is a hobby. This system has come together slowly over 10 years, and I really enjoy trying to get as much out of it as I can. I do research. I demo before I buy. I compare options. I sometimes buy used, and any equipment that gets retired I sell. If my system evolves forever, that’s really ok. Some people can walk into an audio store, drop thousands on a system that a sales rep designs for them, and listen to it contentedly, but where is the fun in that?

Yup, an active crossover. I listen to music with sub bass, and I discovered that it allows me to integrate my sub really well, much better than I could  otherwise (except possibly through DSP, which introduces other issues). Secondarily, it spares my Stratos from having to energize part of the frequency spectrum that my speakers can’t play. No plans to ditch it, at least until I acquire some massive floorstanders (which I’m not looking for at this point).

bacobits1

Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #6 on: 20 May 2018, 11:39 am »
I second the room treatments.
Did mine after a long time somewhat ignored. We all do that. This changed my system completely. More so than any cable change would do for example. Well  worth the $600 I put into it.
GIK would help with recommended treatments and all that's needed.
Highly recommend!

Dishman442

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #7 on: 20 May 2018, 12:48 pm »
Something simple and free is to try the amp bypassing your power conditioner. Klaus’s amps are thirsty, and I believe it is his recommendation to not use conditioning. The way I’ve heard the difference described aligns with what you are hearing.

OSIB16

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #8 on: 20 May 2018, 12:53 pm »
Thunder240,
                   Actually I was suggesting that you use the Hegel in DAC MODE ONLY (Do not use the built in volume attenuator). Do not use a separate Preamp Unit. Instead, connect the DAC directly to the Stratos Power Amplifier. Then connect the Desktop PC to your DAC input socket. When you turn on the PC and load up the Windows 10 page. In the bottom right area of the screen you will see a Volume Attenuator icon (use this to control your volume).

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #9 on: 20 May 2018, 12:54 pm »
@ OSIB16 Assume you mean that I should use my DAC’s built-in volume control and go direct from the DAC to crossover?

I’ve tried this. The Hegel DAC uses digital attenuation, and at low and moderate volumes skads of detail are lost. I actually added the Nuforce unit, which I discovered I had in storage from an old desktop headphone rig from my days as a grad student, in order to provide a means of controlling my volume in the analog domain, and I was pleasantly surprised that it sounds as good as it does as a stereo preamp. (I also tried a passive attenuator, but it sounded dry.) This system needs a preamp.

When I first read your opening post and read up a little on your DAC, I thought the same thing.  In this case, I wouldn't be concentrating on this setup (no preamp) necessarily being the final solution to the problem, but rather exclusively a troubleshooting step.  This seems as good a place as any to try to cut the problem in half.  With the setup configured without a pre in the chain, turn the volume on the DAC up enough so that you don't feel you are losing much if anything in the detail department (and don't focus your attention on the gained/lost detail).  What you are a listening for is what you are looking for - how holographic is the soundstage (compared to with the pre in the chain), and is the edge to the sound still there or gone?  This will at least tell you if to address the specific things you're after whether you should be looking upstream (power conditioner/source/DAC/pre) or downstream (digital crossover/amp) to get the most bang for the buck in sorting the issue. 

Cabling I would think would be a last step if you are trying to dial in a very small swing in some facet of the sound one way or the other once you are closer to "there".  Because you think right now you are looking at something big enough to need an equipment change to address, I'm presuming you aren't quite close enough for your satisfaction to be at tuning with cables.

Another thing to consider is if you can get the problems you discuss to go away (even at the expense of something else) by playing around with what you have, you would at least know if it is possible in your room as-is (as I can understand the hesitation from a family who might not be deep into this hobby acoustically treating the living room), and at the very least you may learn where the lines are in terms of compromises (if I want X virtue from the system I need to give up a little of Y virtue to have it) in your listening space, and then it is a simpler matter of picking your poison.

Last, I don't think I've ever heard for myself or read from others any of Odyssey's amps described as "edgy", but I do feel there may be some consensus on the holographic qualities of the amps improving as one goes up the line (going from stereo to monoblocks, up to kismet boards, caps, etc.), so although I wouldn't turn you away from upgrading your amp, I'm not sure you're going to get where you're headed most efficiently starting there, particularly if the "edgy" sound is problem priority number one, and the holography is step two.

Rocket

Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #10 on: 20 May 2018, 01:52 pm »
Hello,

Apart from all the other suggestions can you inform us whether you listen to audiophile recordings?  Anything less on a Dennis Murphy speaker will give you a brighter/edgier sound that you describe.  I no longer listen to a lot of my favourite music for this very reason. 

Cheers Rod

Thunder240

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 50
Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #11 on: 20 May 2018, 03:56 pm »
To everyone, I greatly appreciate the encouragement to investigate no-cost options, even if I'm doubtful that they'll address the problem without giving up what I already have achieved that I'm happy with.

@bacobits I didn't realize that GiK offers consultation. If I have something concrete, at least I have something the wife can accept/reject! So, room treatments are a possibility.

@OSIB, I undestand what you're talking about . I'm not using a PC, but my Raspberry Pi is running Volumio, which does have an option for digital volume control. I'd be surprised if the result is much different from attenuating with the DAC, but you never know, and its a no-cost experiment.

@Dishman, running the amp directly from the wall is an easy experiment, will try tonight.

@ Jonathan, I like your idea of taking the preamp out as a means of troubleshooting. I always focus on the sound as a whole, and the detail loss has bothered me. But I think you're right that if I can determine that the edginess is gone, then I know what my culprit is. And if it doesn't, then I can investigate treatments and other possibilities. I may get to cables, but the combination of high cost and pseudoscience marketing always turned me off. I picked up inexpensive cables that reviewed well, and didn't dwell on them. The one exception was the power cable for the Stratos, which is a 6AWG beast that I found for $100. but again , I haven't done any sort of serious A/Bing, and probably won't til I've addressed everything else. And you are correct that my first priority is to address the edginess. The holographic sound is something that I’d love to have, but i can manage without for as long as it takes to discover the right gear.

@Rocket, most of what I listen to are redbook CD rips to lossless. I do have some audiophile material from HD tracks, and I also sometimes play compressed music from Amazon  through Volumio using its Airplay feature, but I don't form judgements from this material. Genre wise, it's a mix of rock, electronic, blues and jazz.  (The electronic, and to a lesser degree the rock, is the reason for a sub.) I haven't paid attention to whether the audiophile recordings specifically are edgier sounding than any others. 

Good, I've got a few things to try!

dflee

Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #12 on: 20 May 2018, 04:32 pm »
Money restraints helped with my decisions concerning my stereo. I couldn't
afford an upgrade in equipment (higher than what I have already) so I when I
did experience listening fatigue and hearing upper end grain after changing my
source for what was a better piece, I did go cords. Got lucky and only had to change
once before going with Triode Wire Labs products. The real eye opener was the speaker
cable but each new cord has improved the overall sound. Couldn't believe the power cord
(used 8+ and first TWL piece) cleaned up the upper end quite well.
Good luck with which ever way you go cause listening fatigue is something I wouldn't wish
on anyone.

Don

ps: I'm in the process of getting another IC from Pete as we speak.

charmerci

Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #13 on: 20 May 2018, 08:17 pm »
You can see my system for the info. But having read so many threads here, if I were to get better sound out of my system, the two companies that I wouldn't hesitate trying would be Modwright and Vinnie Rossi. (I can't because they are way out of my price range.)


Also, it's inexpensive to try out some copper solid core speaker wire. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=157556.0


This is a bit long about dealing with the harshness - starts out a long time ago but gets updated (which I think I need to do again.)


https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139706.0

SJ David

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #14 on: 20 May 2018, 08:58 pm »
From your posts it seems you are going about this in a reasoned way. My only contribution is to ask whether you are giving the line preamp a fair amount of time to allow yourself to adjust to the sound rather than reacting to just the difference in sound?   

Early B.

Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #15 on: 20 May 2018, 09:55 pm »
@EarlyB, it sounds like you think I have an upgrade problem! Maybe I do and maybe I don’t, but this is a hobby. This system has come together slowly over 10 years, and I really enjoy trying to get as much out of it as I can. I do research. I demo before I buy. I compare options. I sometimes buy used, and any equipment that gets retired I sell. If my system evolves forever, that’s really ok. Some people can walk into an audio store, drop thousands on a system that a sales rep designs for them, and listen to it contentedly, but where is the fun in that?

Yup, an active crossover. I listen to music with sub bass, and I discovered that it allows me to integrate my sub really well, much better than I could  otherwise (except possibly through DSP, which introduces other issues). Secondarily, it spares my Stratos from having to energize part of the frequency spectrum that my speakers can’t play. No plans to ditch it, at least until I acquire some massive floorstanders (which I’m not looking for at this point).

The point I was trying to make is quite simple and can be applied to all areas of life -- "without a plan, plan to fail." In your case, changing out a single component isn't going to fix your problem. That's why you should consider adopting a long term upgrade strategy. I did that a few years ago and it helped me tremendously when I was encountering the same issues you're having. I had to figure out what I wanted and what trade-offs I was willing to make based on my budget, listening preferences, space limitations, WAF, etc. Now, my future upgrades will be based on staying abreast of trends and technology as opposed to fixing a problem with the sound. 

Thunder240

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  • Posts: 50
Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #16 on: 21 May 2018, 06:55 pm »
Lot's of ideas, thanks everyone.

@charmerci, interesting thread about dealing with harshness through your Phils! One thing that came up from some of the posters was dealing with upstream jitter and USB reclocking. My hifiberry Digi+ Pro is pretty good, but the consensus among people who've used them both is that Allo DigiOne is a better add-on board for the Raspberry Pi in terms of jitter reduction. I'm not sure whether it would make a meaningful difference for me, but it's an inexpensive mod. I may try it at some point just for curiousity's sake.

@SJ David, it's possible I didn't give it a fair shake. But I listened to it for another 2-3 hrs yesterday, and my impressions didn't change. And this is really as long as I can keep the demo unit before returning it to the dealer.

SJ David

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #17 on: 21 May 2018, 07:20 pm »
Perhaps what you have works for you, then. Not the first time I have heard someone mention a preference for driving digital sources directly without an additional gain stage.

Thunder240

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Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #18 on: 25 May 2018, 01:26 am »
Okay, of the various experiments I’ve run over the last several days, guess what made the biggest difference? If you guessed skipping the power conditioner and plugging the Stratos directly into the wall, you would be correct.

I would have thought that the total current draw would be the same from my wall receptical (simple twin outlet) whether the amp is plugged into the Panamax which is plugged into one outlet or whether the amp occupies the 2nd outlet, and my router (which previously occupied the 2nd outlet) is now plugged into the Panamax. I guess it’s more complicated than that.

I can’t put my finger on exactly what is different about the sound. It may be a lower noise floor? The sound doesn’t have the Rogue preamps sweetness, of course. The transients are all still very precise, but I’m going to listen for a week and decide if this takes care of whatever I had previously found fatiguing and was calling edginess.

Thanks for all of the ideas!

Early B.

Re: preamp or amp upgrade
« Reply #19 on: 25 May 2018, 02:09 am »
Okay, of the various experiments I’ve run over the last several days, guess what made the biggest difference? If you guessed skipping the power conditioner and plugging the Stratos directly into the wall, you would be correct.

Some manufacturers suggest plugging their gear directly into the wall for the very reason you encountered -- customers often use low quality power conditioners and it stifles the sound. A higher quality power conditioner will give you a cleaner sound and protect your equipment. Many of us have had very positive experiences with the PI Audio UberBUSS or Dave's modified SurgeX units.