[FullRangeMan]

First hand reports as these from Charmerci and Dave are very important to clear doubts from music lovers, I will follow this thread.

[Steve]

no Dave, it goes against laws of physics, Ohm's to be exact. My Lord, 'audiophools' are indeed a weird bunch !

Ah, no it does not twitch54. Whether Dave uses a higher output impedance (Z) amplifier or uses wire of higher dc resistance, they are basically interchangeable. The wire's inductive reactance (XL) is relatively constant regardless of gauge (single wire); so if one uses a thevenin equivalent circuit to analyze the circuit, the Rdc can either be placed in the amplifier's output itself, or in the wire itself.
 
I hope you will reconsider your comments.

steve

[charmerci]

So I bought some door bell solid copper wire - I think they are 24g. I coupled the 14g with two 24g (four sets total,  +/- twice to each speaker) and as someone said, there was a definite rise in high frequencies (possibly less bass) with my New Philharmonitors, it was not a pleasant result. Added the two 16g apexjr wires to each connection and that was much better.

Rosa Passos' Amorosa album sounded amazing! Better than ever before. But interestingly other albums sounded less better than with my previous (threaded) speaker wire.
So many possibilities!!! Do I have to change speaker wire for every album???

[FullRangeMan]

Maybe you would try UPOCC Neotech awg 12 or 14 (there is PVC or Teflon) from Jeff-Sonic Craft or OCCMetal:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=92305

http://www.occmetal.com/

[fredgarvin]

no Dave, it goes against laws of physics, Ohm's to be exact. My Lord, 'audiophools' are indeed a weird bunch !

Whenever someones goes on about 'the rules of physics'  as a rebuttal all it tells me is they have no actual knowledge of physics.

[JLM]

We can go beyond the (known) laws of physics, but can never violate them.

Used CAT5 years ago (lacked bass which isn't an issue with Planet 10's small FR drivers), switched to cryo'd single strand CAT5 which made an improvement.  Have moved on since.

[AmpDesigner333]

None in any of the FRs, but some seriously big ones in the 2 WAW that we have done passive XOs.

No inductors at all gives some latitude to how resistive the wire is. The 1st online calculator i found suggested my wire has 0.18Ω R.

I am currently using a PP EL84 triode amp, but it was just put in so we could demo the Pass ACA which have been in system for probably 10 months.

A related subjecy it damping factor, most have no real understanding of the effects of changing output impedance. Optimum is very dependent of the speakers used — and there are a growing number of them that kak if the output impedance is too low (damping factor too high).

dave

Regarding speaker wire resistance and the effect on damping factor (with some math):
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=157603.0

Also, regarding "better speaker wire", I'd like to see MEASUREMENTS (THD+N, SNR, etc.) showing the improvement (or not) of various wire.  I've done experiments showing a small distortion difference in the midrange with certain (can't say, or I'll be accused of advertising) speaker cables and certain amplifiers, using a resistive load at the end of the speaker wire.

For audio frequencies and beyond, skin effect is arguably negligible.  Here's a handy calculator:
http://chemandy.com/calculators/skin-effect-calculator.htm

I could go on and on, but any decent speaker wire at audio frequencies looks like a simple resistance.  You do need enough "girth" to keep from killing damping factor, assuming your amps have respectably low output impedance across the audio band (hint: most don't).  Science is the key to understanding wire.  Thanks.

[wushuliu]

Unless we intend to discuss the science/methodology etc, shouldn't this be in the Path of Least Resistance forum?

[twitch54]

Ah, no it does not twitch54. Whether Dave uses a higher output impedance (Z) amplifier or uses wire of higher dc resistance, they are basically interchangeable. The wire's inductive reactance (XL) is relatively constant regardless of gauge (single wire); so if one uses a thevenin equivalent circuit to analyze the circuit, the Rdc can either be placed in the amplifier's output itself, or in the wire itself.
 
I hope you will reconsider your comments.

steve

OK, gotcha , therefore....overall 'system dependent' and for that your saying Ohm's Law has no bearing ?

[AmpDesigner333]

Unless we intend to discuss the science/methodology etc, shouldn't this be in the Path of Least Resistance forum?

How about a link?

Math and science are always welcome to me (:

[Steve]

OK, gotcha , therefore....overall 'system dependent' and for that your saying Ohm's Law has no bearing ?

I am saying a couple of things. First I apologize if I came off strong Dave (twitch54). I have just heard "breaking Physics" too many times on
other forums.

1. The first point is that I am saying that whether the dc resistance is in the wire or amplifier output makes no difference. The speaker sees it.

2. With that said, I am able to state that an amplifier can have output Z/dc resistance, and still have the sound un-altered, a perfect amplifier via special listening tests, not measurements.

3. Speakers are problematic due to inaccurate sources, preamplifiers, and amplifiers. If the source, pre, and amp were perfect, the speaker could be a lot more accurate. As such, Dave's system might actually be more accurate with the small wire. I know my system sounded better with ten 18 gauge solid wires in parallel than with 12, or 8 of the wires, or one large 9 gauge wire. It could be either way, and there may be a critical damping factor that is most linear, not just the highest damping factor.

I hope this helps twitch.

I could go on and on, but any decent speaker wire at audio frequencies looks like a simple resistance.  You do need enough "girth" to keep from killing damping factor, assuming your amps have respectably low output impedance across the audio band (hint: most don't).  Science is the key to understanding wire.

Not exactly. It may be that the optimum damping factor is not the highest. We also wish to consider the highs and low inductance.

Most descent speaker wire (let's call it X) has inductance at audio frequencies. That is why I suggested using multiple wires in parallel. Twisted speaker wires actually has more inductance than ~3 parallel wires, depending upon X wire size which determines the spacing from wire center to center. Besides that, if the + and - speakers wires (for clarity) are separated, the capacitance is also negligible for parallel wires.

From a previous post I created on another forum. Notice I am only using 5 wires in parallel, inductive reactance is at 20khz.

   
Single                Single              Single            5 parallel       
18 ga.                13 ga.             11 ga.            18 ga. parallel wires

.0325                  .0104            .0066                 .0065              DC resistance

2410 nh             2232 nh          2162 nh              482 nh            Inductance

.30 ohms            .28 ohms       .27 ohms            .06 ohms         Inductive reactance 20khz

I kept the capacitance to minimal, near zero which is almost always good (never say always). So while the 5 parallel 18 gauge wires equate to an 11 gauge wire in DC resistance, the inductive reactance is only 1/4.5th that of the 11 gauge wire.

Notice while the single wires vary in gauge, the straight wire inductance is fairly close. Paralleling drastically reduces the inductance while the DC resistance is close to the 11 gauge wire.

cheers

steve

[AmpDesigner333]

Ah, no it does not twitch54. Whether Dave uses a higher output impedance (Z) amplifier or uses wire of higher dc resistance, they are basically interchangeable. The wire's inductive reactance (XL) is relatively constant regardless of gauge (single wire); so if one uses a thevenin equivalent circuit to analyze the circuit, the Rdc can either be placed in the amplifier's output itself, or in the wire itself.
 
I hope you will reconsider your comments.

steve

Note that an amplifier's output impedance is NOT the same animal as speaker wire impedance.  NOT interchangeable!

[AmpDesigner333]

Not exactly. It may be that the optimum damping factor is not the highest. We also wish to consider the highs and low inductance.

Simply put, lower damping factor means less control over the speaker.

Regarding inductance, how much is acceptable to you as far as speaker wire goes, and how do you calculate that?  Thanks.

[Steve]

Note that an amplifier's output impedance is NOT the same animal as speaker wire impedance.  NOT interchangeable!

It actually is in context I used it. Dc resistance has flat response over the audio band, basically no phase shift over the audio band. Most amplifiers have output impedance that has flat response over the audio band, and does not phase shift over the audio band.
True, there are some amps that vary, are wild, but that is up to them.

----------

Simply put, lower damping factor means less control over the speaker.

Which may be better if the total Qts of the woofer/box, the system is low, say 0,6, 0,5 or 0,3 etc. By raising the number, to say 0,7, we still have nice control of the woofer, and we did at least two things.

1. We extended the low frequency response. I like having a Qts of woofer/box, say, 0,707 or so, and Harbeth has even higher. I don't necessarily care for the Harbeth as the ultimate, but they are excellent.

2. The lower numbers, 0,6, 0,5, 0,3 will alter the relationship between the fundamental and its harmonics, with the harmonics dominating more, deteriorating the sound. The instrument will sound too thin, not natural. (I am leaving out the room's acoustics.) I prefer to have proper harmonic relationships to the fundamental for natural sound. Some may prefer different, that is their choice.

Regarding inductance, how much is acceptable to you as far as speaker wire goes, and how do you calculate that?  Thanks.

I tried different numbers of 18 gauge solid wires in parallel until I found the proper number for optimum sound from my system. I used door bell wire, 2 conductors per, so I paralleled 5 jackets worth for 10 wires. 8 or 12 did not sound right in my system.

The inductance may not be precisely 1/10th that of just one wire due to proximity, haven't actually measured it. Different drivers, with different impedance (Z) curves may require a different number of wires in parallel. 10 in parallel is just slightly smaller than an 8 gauge wire, about 8.1 gauge. Ten provided the best overall response, including tight bass. I might experiment with 9 or 11 in parallel and see.

Here is a link to examining the inductance of a straight wire. You can take it from there.

http://chemandy.com/calculators/round-wire-inductance-calculator.htm

cheers

steve

[Folsom]

Simply put, lower damping factor means less control over the speaker.

That depends a bit on what you define as control. In terms of linearity, yes (not always with subs), in terms of SPL no. Over dampening can lead to almost no SPL on some speaker types in the bass, that otherwise can put out a lot. Underdamped can reduce SPL in BR boxes.

[planet10]

Simply put, lower damping factor means less control over the speaker.

Not a valid generalization. Depending on the box and the driver in the box, too high a damping factor can overdamp the driver.

Having lived with a variable transimpedance amp (output impedance controllable from near zero to near infinity), each speaker we tried had a different optimal setting.

dave

[Steve]

Not a valid generalization. Depending on the box and the driver in the box, too high a damping factor can overdamp the driver.

Having lived with a variable transimpedance amp (output impedance controllable from near zero to near infinity), each speaker we tried had a different optimal setting.

dave

Dave, thank you for your experiments and information.

cheers

steve

[charmerci]

Unless we intend to discuss the science/methodology etc, shouldn't this be in the Path of Least Resistance forum?

Ooops. I don't often post over there so I didn't think about it. If you guys want....


Probably no more changes in my system until Monday or Tuesday.

[twitch54]

I am saying a couple of things. First I apologize if I came off strong Dave (twitch54). I have just heard "breaking Physics" too many times on
other forums.

LOL Steve, no apologies needed, I am not one of those 'thin skinned' forum types. Many, if not most here are more techno-savvy than myself. I just couldn't buy into a generalized statement of a 24ga piece of wire improving ones speaker connection to amplifier without supporting info. Regardless, my Pass Labs X260.8's driving my Revel Studio 2's will never be subject to such.

keep the dialogue going, I'm enjoying the read.

[Steve]

LOL Steve, no apologies needed, I am not one of those 'thin skinned' forum types. Many, if not most here are more techno-savvy than myself. I just couldn't by into a generalized statement of a 24ga piece of wire improving ones speaker connection to amplifier without supporting info. Regardless, my Pass Labs X260.8's driving my Revel Studio 2's will never be subject to such.

keep the dialogue going, I'm enjoying the read.

Thank you twitch, much appreciated. Frankly, I have never heard of anyone using 24 gauge speaker wire before now. But Dave likes to experiment and has a pretty good head on his shoulders. I ought to try one 18 gauge wire sometime and see what happens. Never hurts and one learns, even if not successful in my system.

One thing I learned is that with my stereo, I have to wait nearly 3 hours to fully warm up, literally, before the sound settles. Starts a bit full but as it warms up, the sound thins out. I would like to keep my test amp cooler, need to place the power transformers outside the chassis. Bad layout on my part but been too lazy and taking care of mom to make the change.

Cheers and all the best twitch.

steve