[kenreau]

We just closed on a 103 year old craftsman house that has a 1950's vintage Federal Pacific 200 Amp panel in it.  The home inspector flagged it as a p.o.s. hazard and we got a $2K allowance to have it replaced.

I've done a couple of searches here and on google looking for any consensus of a high quality main break panel.  Most threads come up from years 2005 ~2010.  It seems like most commodity things, a number of companies were consolidated, bought out, went of business and its a race to the bottom for price over quality of products.

Is there any significant differnces between the major manufacturers like Cutler Hammer, or Square D?  The realtor had an electrician put together an estimate with a BR style Cutler Hammer panel.  I don't have a sense if it is a good, better or best range, or just what he can grab easily at Home Depot.

Does anyone have a recommendation of a particular panel line ?  Should I look for copper bus bars, special kinds of breakers, other?  Anything geared towards the audiophile/videophile inmates here on AC would dig? 

Fwiw, I was also planning to have an Environmental Potentials EP-2050 surge and noise filter and their EP-2750 high frequency ground filter added per the various recommendations here on AC.

Thanks
Kenreau

[TomS]

We just closed on a 103 year old craftsman house that has a 1950's vintage Federal Pacific 200 Amp panel in it.  The home inspector flagged it as a p.o.s. hazard and we got a $2K allowance to have it replaced.

I've done a couple of searches here and on google looking for any consensus of a high quality main break panel.  Most threads come up from years 2005 ~2010.  It seems like most commodity things, a number of companies were consolidated, bought out, went of business and its a race to the bottom for price over quality of products.

Is there any significant differnces between the major manufacturers like Cutler Hammer, or Square D?  The realtor had an electrician put together an estimate with a BR style Cutler Hammer panel.  I don't have a sense if it is a good, better or best range, or just what he can grab easily at Home Depot.

Does anyone have a recommendation of a particular panel line ?  Should I look for copper bus bars, special kinds of breakers, other?  Anything geared towards the audiophile/videophile inmates here on AC would dig? 

Fwiw, I was also planning to have an Environmental Potentials EP-2050 surge and noise filter and their EP-2750 high frequency ground filter added per the various recommendations here on AC.

Thanks
Kenreau

I had the same scenario with the FPE panel in my building, ripped it out as soon as it was practical. I'm not an electrician, who might have better advice, but I replaced it with a Siemens QP panel which I'm very happy with. Additional breakers are readily available at big box stores, so it's very easy add circuits as needed.

[jea48]

Square D QO.
 Plated copper bus. Breakers are rated very good.

Stay away from the Square D Homeline series! It has aluminum bus. I don't care for the Homeline series breakers either.

Question.
 Will the electrician be pulling an electrical permit for the electrical panel replacement?

[Folsom]

These? What do they mount on?

No Clue where to buy this stuff...

[kenreau]

Square D QO.
 Plated copper bus. Breakers are rated very good.

Stay away from the Square D Homeline series! It has aluminum bus. I don't care for the Homeline series breakers either.

Question.
 Will the electrician be pulling an electrical permit for the electrical panel replacement?

Good to know, thanks.  Yes, permitted.  Adding grounding electrodes and rods to bring up to NEC codes.

[Folsom]

Have you thought about running JPS labs wire to your room?

[weatherman1]

I agree the Square D QO is a good box and breakers are easy to find.  If you are dealing with electrician install you want to find out how many ARC breakers the local government reg's require for the house since these unit's will drive cost up considerably.  Basically required for bedrooms but standards vary for states and local jurisdictions.

[JLM]

While your at it suggestions:

Whole house surge protector (cheap)

Dedicated audio circuits wired into the top of the panel

Get a plenty big panel

Consider a separate ground for audio circuits

Check to see how reliable your electrical utility service is.  We'll be installed a fixed generator this summer (this is the time for you to wire for it).  Note that most fixed generator sets aren't big enough to carry the entire load of the house, so you'd also need to decide how much coverage you want.

[Big Red Machine]

Spent 12 years at Eaton and the Cutler Hammer panels are top notch. Put some Arc Fault breakers in for bedrooms to help drive up my pension value as well please!

[thunderbrick]

Square D QO.
 Plated copper bus. Breakers are rated very good.

Stay away from the Square D Homeline series! It has aluminum bus. I don't care for the Homeline series breakers either.

+1!   

[Speedskater]

Random thoughts:
a] If the Federal Pacific lasted this long, it wasn't one with the safety problem. But it's time to move on.
b] Any of the above manufacture's top of the line box (panel board) should be good. The ones at Home Depot may not be top of the line.
c] The individual breakers need to be certified to work in that box.
d] Add a whole house surge suppressor.
e] The inspector will require some GFCI and even AFCI breakers. Those AFCI breakers can be a pain.
f] Ground rod, do whatever the inspector and the electrician want and let it go. It has nothing to with day-to-day AC power quality.
g] If you have a multi-circuit A/V system, run a feeder to the A/V room and add a sub-panel there.
h] Over-size conductors to the A/V system are good.
i] Romex® is better than the typical metal conduit job.

[kenreau]

Have you thought about running JPS labs wire to your room?

Yes, looking in to that and DH Labs and Cardas romex lines.  Approx. 75' run to A/V room, so need to weigh that against a subpanel.

Thx
Ken

[kenreau]

Spent 12 years at Eaton and the Cutler Hammer panels are top notch. Put some Arc Fault breakers in for bedrooms to help drive up my pension value as well please!

 

[jea48]

Good to know, thanks.  Yes, permitted.  Adding grounding electrodes and rods to bring up to NEC codes.

Here is a great video on AFCI protection for you to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfzmOB15sLY

Your city AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) electrical inspection department will have the final say on what is required in your area. The video describes what is required by the 2014 NEC Code. The city may have adopted all of the 2014 NEC or amended parts of it.

Your electrician should be able to tell you what is required for your area.
I see your state has adopted the 2014 NEC Code. Some states allow cities to amend parts of the NEC.
http://www.jade1.com/jadecc/nec_code_adoption.php

Ask your electrician to show you his Electrical License. He is supposed to carry it on his person anytime he is working as an electrician. Make sure it is up to date

 

[kenreau]

Random thoughts:
d] Add a whole house surge suppressor.
g] If you have a multi-circuit A/V system, run a feeder to the A/V room and add a sub-panel there.
h] Over-size conductors to the A/V system are good.
i] Romex® is better than the typical metal conduit job.

I need to investigate the sub-panel option.  Its roughly 65' from main panel to center of HT room.  Intending to include the Environmental Potentials EP-2050 surge and noise filter as well.

Thanks for all the suggestions and info.

Kenreau

[jea48]

Kenreau,

What did the electrician say about the existing branch circuit wiring in the house? What type of wiring still exists in the house? Still have some old knob and tube wiring? Updated to 2 wire NM cable (Romex)? Updated to 2 wire with ground MN-B cable (Romex)? Where is the electrical panel located?

Did the electrician do a walk through the house looking at wall receptacles, ceiling lighting fixtures, kitchen receptacle outlet locations, check for the number of branch circuits supplied to the kitchen, check for a separate 20 amp circuit for bathrooms with GFCI protection? The list could go on.....

I guess what I am trying to say did the electrician say anything about the city electrical inspector may require the electrical wiring may need to be updated to meet current code? He should have....

Once an electrical permit is pulled the door is opened for the electrical inspector to have a look around. HE will have the final say in the end what is acceptable and what is not. The electrician should be able to tell you up front pretty much what needs to be done. It all comes done to time and money.... His time your money + materials.

ASK lots of questions!
 Is the electrician giving you a ballpark price for the total job or just a price to change out the electrical panel and add the necessary main earth grounding system for the electrical service. That could end up being the cheapest part of the job in the end.......

 

[kenreau]

All great suggestions.  I'm meeting the owner of another/different Electrical contractor at the house next week after we actually get the keys (we gave the current owners through May to finish moving out) to walk through it all and see what we have to work with.  I actually work in the commercial construction business and have a BS in Construction Engineering Management, so I do a lot of similar vetting of scope, plans, specs, sub-bid solicitation, etc. for a living.  I understand how Residential work is typically a different can of worms than Commercial, both in terms of material quality and subcontractors and thus wanted to ask about house panel replacement recommendations.  Sounds like the CH Classic and Square D QO get the top marks.

Check out the existing FP panel photo, she is a beauty.

Kenreau,

What did the electrician say about the existing branch circuit wiring in the house? What type of wiring still exists in the house? Still have some old knob and tube wiring? Updated to 2 wire NM cable (Romex)? Updated to 2 wire with ground MN-B cable (Romex)? Where is the electrical panel located?

Did the electrician do a walk through the house looking at wall receptacles, ceiling lighting fixtures, kitchen receptacle outlet locations, check for the number of branch circuits supplied to the kitchen, check for a separate 20 amp circuit for bathrooms with GFCI protection? The list could go on.....

I guess what I am trying to say did the electrician say anything about the city electrical inspector may require the electrical wiring may need to be updated to meet current code? He should have....

Once an electrical permit is pulled the door is opened for the electrical inspector to have a look around. HE will have the final say in the end what is acceptable and what is not. The electrician should be able to tell you up front pretty much what needs to be done. It all comes done to time and money.... His time your money + materials.

ASK lots of questions!
 Is the electrician giving you a ballpark price for the total job or just a price to change out the electrical panel and add the necessary main earth grounding system for the electrical service. That could end up being the cheapest part of the job in the end.......

[bentconvert]

Random thoughts:
a] If the Federal Pacific lasted this long, it wasn't one with the safety problem.

IMO this statement is not accurate. It may be that the conditions that would cause an FP breaker to fail haven't been met yet in this residence. I replaced an FP panel in my last house and it is my understanding that the problem is they fail to trip when the load exceeds the breakers limit creating the potential fire hazard.
If they aren't "tested" by an excessive load they may last forever but still be a potential safety problem under the right conditions.

[Speedskater]

We had an older FP panel than that, it was an add-on to the 1939 fuse box.

********************************************
See this Middle Atlantic paper for almost everything you need to know about AC power and A/V systems:

"Integrating Electronic Equipment and Power into Rack Enclosures"
'Optimized Power Distribution and Grounding for Audio, Video and Electronic Systems'

http://www.middleatlantic.com/resources/white-papers.aspx

[Speedskater]

IMO this statement is not accurate. It may be that the conditions that would cause an FP breaker to fail haven't been met yet in this residence. I replaced an FP panel in my last house and it is my understanding that the problem is they fail to trip when the load exceeds the breakers limit creating the potential fire hazard.
If they aren't "tested" by an excessive load they may last forever but still be a potential safety problem under the right conditions.

In any case, it's OBE (Overtaken By Events).