[andyr]

Jeez you're a pessimist Dejan!  

Perhaps it would be better if we were all transported back 100 years when there was a lot of "pink" on the world map and Britain had its Empire!

It seems to me that many of the world's troublespots are the result of bad "partitions" at the end of this Empire ... would Africa be the basket case it is now if most of it was still under Colonial rule?  (And, remember, Britain created "Palestine"!)  I wonder!

And I don't agree with you that terorism is solely "small and poor" against "big and wealthy".  Case in point ... recently, our Oz security forces exercised a series of search warrants against some residents who happened to be Moslems.  Of course, their spokesmen cried "foul"!  (The "homeland" wasn't specified but my guess is it's Pakistan.)  Trouble is, these people might avow to set up Sharia law in Pakistan but the "nature of this beast" is that it doesn't stop there!  First the homeland ... then neighbours ... then the world!

I guess I have no real beef against people fighting for something in their homeland (although if they decide to emigrate to another country, perhaps they should leave their homeland-troubles at home?) but I do have a severe problem with those who wish to impose their world view on me.  After all ... that's what "democracy" is - but it seems "democracy" and "Islam" are dichotomous.

But the only change happening that I can see will occur when the huge round flying objects position themselves over the world's capital cities.  Then every religious leader around the world will see that we are just inconsequential on the Universe's scale!

Regards,

Andy

[Tinker]

But the only change happening that I can see will occur when the huge round flying objects position themselves over the world's capital cities. Then every religious leader around the world will see that we are just inconsequential on the Universe's scale!

I have always kinda liked this concept: the universe does not care for politics.

I am reminded of these words from the Tao Te Ching
To keep silence is mark of a man acting in full accordance with his Will.
The rain lasts not the night, nor the hurricane the day.
Who are the authors of such violence, but Heaven and Earth themselves.
What then, abides the meagre passions of man?

I think this is closely realted to Douglas Adam's concept of the ultimate punishment for incurable criminals. In the Restaurant at the End of the Universe (I think it's in the second book) he presents us with "the total perspective vortex." This device shows you your significance in the Universe. The results are devastating.
http://www.psychcentral.com/psypsych/Total_Perspective_Vortex

T.

[doug s.]

Jeez you're a pessimist Dejan!     ...

andy, realism isn't pessimism, yust cuz it's unpleasant.    

as i have said prior, & as others have seemed to echo - the usa's (and anyone supporting it) behaviour is only adding fuel to the fire.  one has to look at what kinda thorn is stuck in the side of "the terrorists", if one wants to ameliorate the problem.  yust mindlessly trying to stick more thorns in 'em ain't gonna help.

only one answer - what is motivating these people to hatred of the usa & its supporters - springs to mind:   that of the usa's continual support of israel, even when israel is wrong, in its dealings with the palestinians.  the usa should "convince" israel to withdraw unilaterally 100% from *all* of the territories occupied during the '67 war.  *only* this will help reduce "terrorism".

the idea that the occupied territories offer israel a security buffer is a red herring for a simple land-grab.  israel, as the single largest recipient of usa foreign aid, does not need any "land buffer".  it yust wants the land.  and, israel is truly the *only* country in the middle east with wmd's.  the israeli's are the *real* terrorists, imo - blackmailing the usa & the rest of the western world w/its ~200 nuclear warheads, which everyone knows they will unhesitatingly use, if they, like a spoiled child, do not get their way.  oh well...  

doug s.

[DVV]

Jeez you're a pessimist Dejan!  

A pessimist is an optimist with experience.

That's EXACTLY what I was told when the Iraq war started. I'm sad to say that it was I who was right, not the optimists.

And I am not a pessimist, nor do I think of myself as an optimist, I try to be a realist. I try.

Perhaps it would be better if we were all transported back 100 years when there was a lot of "pink" on the world map and Britain had its Empire!

It seems to me that many of the world's troublespots are the result of bad "partitions" at the end of this Empire ... would Africa be the basket case it is now if most of it was still under Colonial rule?  (And, remember, Britain created "Palestine"!)  I wonder!

And I don't agree with you that terorism is solely "small a ...

Andy, the difference between you and many others like you and myself (possibly some others here too) was that you never were and I was for 79 days the beneficiary of democracy delivered to my doorstep from 15,000 feet above me. You'd be surprised how that changes your points of view.

Especially when you grab your only child and run him off not to school, where he should have been, but to an air raid shelter.

As you can imagine, it absolutely breeds one's love for western democracy and NATO.

I never said terrorism was limited only to the small and poor; for example, the Bader-Meinhof group in Germany in the late 60-ies was completely home-grown, a product of the rapidly expanding German industry. That dimwitted dodo who blew up a federal building some years ago in the US was also a home grown product.

What I did say was that terrorism was the ONLY resort the small and weak have to strike back against the big and mighty. They have no other viable option. They need to be effective because they know their chances of accomplishing it are very low anyway, and hoping for a second chance is absurd without at least 4-5 years passing by. So, they need to make it work, and they need to make it effective. They need to strike terror into the hearts of as amny as they can. Hence the Twin Towers, hence Madrid, hence London.

If you ask whether I agree with it or not, the answer is simple - of course not, I don't think anybody half sane could ever agree with any form of terrorism. But then, terrorism, as practically anything in this world, also has many forms; for example, there's such a thing as state terrorism, which to me is just as worthy of condemnation and individual terrorism by smaller groups. If not more.

I think it's a form of terrorism when I am interviewed by city, republic and federal cops in 1975 and 1976, who wonder how can I, an economist by profession, be a free lancer in a "socialist" (communist) society? True, I was not mistreated, I was not jailed, I was not beaten, but I was harassed fro two years (despite everything, ex-Yugoslavia was far more liberal than any other communist country of the day). Then, in 1988, I get harassed again, this time with more pressure but still without physical threat, because I am working as a local associate of the World Bank.

When the breakup began, in 1992, I am black listed by ex-Yugoslav republics. Why? Because I am investigating crimes against ethnic Serbs in Croatia. Asking why were 60+ year old peasants tortured, dismembered, ears and noses cut off, throats slit and murdered by mallets. After two years, that was the first case the International tribunal from the Hague simply could not ignore any more and had to open; God knows they did everything they could not to. But despite threats to my wife and son, with my wife's support, I didn't give up, I didn't stop, in fact, I accelerated. The things I learnt and could prove kept me alive.

Andy, I have seen with my own two eyes more blood and gore resulting from various forms of terrorism than probably the sum total of all members here. That's why my views may be a little hard to understand; when the smell of blood is once in your nostrills, you NEVER forget it. You learn once and for all what death really means.

The only thing I never managed to learn, probably because I just don't have what it takes in me, is how to hate. I could write pages explaining the numerous reasons I could use to hate, but there's no point, because I still don't hate anybody. I "hate" only hate, because it reduces people from thinking creatures to bloodthirsty monsters, but I have seen it far too many times not to be aware of what comes next with those who adopt the Dark Side Of The Force. George Lucas is no fool, he knows what he's talking about, even if he's a little poetic and cinematic about it.

Hate is the most powerful weapon on earth, far transcending all nuclear devices rolled into one, believe me. I don't know about love, but I do know hate can move mountains, with explosives if need be. Start breeding it, underestimate it as the US have and are doing, and you will have terrorism as the articulation of that hate. Just as the hate on which it is founded is blind, so is terrorism blind. Unfortunately, it is blind to the victims, but not to its own articulation, which can be very coordinated, planned in great detail and executed immaculately. Precisely what makes it so dangerous.

And being from the Balkans, believe me, nobody knows hate as well as we do here. We have had it here for centuries, and no US, NATO or whosever's intervention will change one iota of it. Countries here have been composed, decomposed and recomposed for centuries, and old enemies will stay enemies no matter what. It's gone down into the genes. The West will regret ever taking any part in all this even in the Balkans, let alone the Middle East, and the muslim question.

All of which translates into more bombs, more sirens wailing, more blood, more gore, more misery. Mark my words. How do you fight an enemy who has no regard whatsoever for his own life? How do you scare off a man who has decided he has nothing left to lose? How do you fight an enemy within, home grown muslims gone terrorist? How do you thwart an agenda encompassing the whole globe, organized around the globe, which, like corporations, thinks globally and acts locallly? All the while keeping its greatest progentor, Saudi Arabia, near to your bosom as your most trusted ally? Keeping silent on their observing of human rights, by cutting off the arms of thieves, public whippings and stonigs, public beheadings?

Who then breeds terrorism? Remember, doing nothing is silent approval.

Cheers,
DVV

[TheChairGuy]

Amazing Dejan, thanks for your perspective on this ticklish subject  

[rabbitz]

DVV

I'm glad you posted this as it gives a real perspective on these events and not just what is fed to us through the media.

I have family who have been through such events and cannot comprehend what they went through for years.... yet they remain sane and do not show any hate, just glad that they survived.

Fortunately Australia has been spared these events on it's own soil but unfortunately the clock is ticking and it's only a matter of time.

[ScottMayo]

only one answer - what is motivating these people to hatred of the usa & its supporters - springs to mind: that of the usa's continual support of israel, even when israel is wrong, in its dealings with the palestinians. the usa should "convince" israel to withdraw unilaterally 100% from *all* of the territories occupied during the '67 war. *only* this will help reduce "terrorism".

No, it won't. If the terrorists were really kicking up this fuss about Israel, they would be attacking Israel. But they don't do that. Because it's suicidal? Hardly an issue - they are already engaged in suicidal techniques, against the world's superpowers. Because it would call down American wrath on their homeland? They already have that problem. Pushing Israel into the sea isn't going to end this.

What it is about, is pride and power - critical motivators in the Arabian cultures. Not religion - suicide bombers who blow up women and children clearly have no interest in the teachings of the Koran.

There are people who want the Islamic nations to be a significant power, the way China has become significant. They see themselves falling behind the rest of the world. If it wasn't for oil, most of the Islamic world would already be a footnote in history - they gave us astronomy and the zero, and then kinda went nowhere for centuries, while the West and then the far East took off as economic, technological powers.

So they reason that the way to get that power is to 1) control oil, because the West dies without oil, and 2) slaughter "enemies", because then people flock to your banner. Manufactured enemies will do. Israel is an excuse to hate the West more, but the point is the West. Islam as a religious issue is a complete smokescreen. "Great Satan", my fuzzy bottom. As soon as China gets more dependent on oil, they'll be blowing up bombs there, too.

The sad thing is, they can't win this way. They can't regain prominence on the world stage with backpacks and bombs. They are outnumbered and out-technologied, and they know it. All they can do is kick the West in the nuts and call that victory - so that's what they are doing.

If we want to end this, we need to move the western world off of oil. If we didn't need oil, we'd leave Arabia alone and just let it simmer in its own juices. Terrorism would turn inward, and eventually sputter and die.

But we (speaking as an American) don't seem to get this. I see more SUVs on the road, not less. I don't see much funding for solar or wind power, and our public transportation is not a joy to use. We aren't trying to get fusion working - the Europeans are taking the lead on that. We just keep sucking on sludge and the political mess that comes with it.

You want to end terrorism? Learn to use half the gasoline and electricity you use now, use paper products and not plastic, and get your neighbors to follow your lead - and then wait thirty years.

Hey, why isn't this thread in the Sports Bar?

[doug s.]

No, it won't. If the terrorists were really kicking up this fuss about Israel, they would be attacking Israel. But they don't do that. Because it's suicidal? Hardly an issue - they are already engaged in suicidal techniques, against the world's superpowers. Because it would call down American wrath on their homeland? They already have that problem. Pushing Israel into the sea isn't going to end this...

yes it will.  terrorists *are* attacking israel, as much as they can.  bombings there on a regular basis.

israel has been a thorn in the side of the arab world since its inception.

i am not talking about "pushing israel into the sea"...  i am talking about forcing israel to relinquish its occupied territories, so there can be a viable palestinian state formed.  after ~60 years, the mainstream consensus in the arab world is that the existence of the state of israel is ok.

while there may still be those in the arab world who want more power, & those  who still want to eliminate israel, with a palestinian state & peace between palestine & israel, all the wind will be taken out of the sails of fanatics recruiting efforts.  unless, of course, folks like those who are presently running the show in america & britain, insist in continuing to keep the sails filled, w/their power-grabbing agenda.  dubyah is presently alqaeda's number 1 recruiter.

doug s.

[Bemopti123]

DougS, history cannot be re written and the case of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, it is an issue that has been simmering for the past 30 years?  The entire territory of Israel was grafted out of predominantly Arab and Muslim lands. It has been more than a 1/2 century.  The issue that I have with the Palestinian, and it might be the case with the Israelis is that they are not really focusing of what is really and honestly keeping them down.  Be if the ineptitude of the Palestinian Authority in cracking down corruption and all the money that is wasted away and finds their way into the pockets of inept politicians in Gaza or the West bank.  Why do you think there are terrorist attacks in Israel by Palestinians?  It comes down to vengeance and prior to that, it comes down to economics.  Give the Palestinian youth and the unemployed some economical incentives not to chose violence and terror.  All that the Arab world keeps on complaining about is how Israel is doing wrong on their "brothers" the Palestinians.  and yet, they do not bother to really support and act for change in Palestine....Maybe because many of the complaining mongers from the Arab world are themselves corrupt, and in my view, hypocritical.

The fact as it stands is that Israel is not going anywhere and all parties involved in repraisals and violence ought to have learned something already, live together or simply live with each other in absurd misery and fundamentalism dominating their lives for years to come.  
Unless Israel gets rids of its problem by simply isolating the Arabs from the Jews and vice versa, things will not end.  And, of course, this is not feasable nor it that Wall that they are building to seal everything off.  Bombers, bombs, terrorists with bombs in Hello Kitty bags, badly shot videos of executions, reprisals, stone throwing all comes down to people who are desperate enough, because they have NOTHING and need to hold on to SOMETHING, even if this something entails their death.


ScottMayo, how a sign says, "Stop the Oil Wars, ride bicycles."  I believe in
the question of the US relying too much black sludge that comes from violent and corrupt places.  Alas, the Muslim culture that would keep and pass on knowledge through the Dark Ages to the rest of Europe, seems to be long dead.  It is a pity.  

No one is bad.  It is when you pit those who do not have with those who want more, it is then when trouble begins.  "Hell are people"...No EXIT.  

PS:  This Thread should not be in the Sportbar because it would already have been deleted if it were there.

[ScottMayo]

i am not talking about "pushing israel into the sea"...  i am talking about forcing israel to relinquish its occupied territories, so there can be a viable palestinian state formed.

Well, if you're right, things should settle down in a decade or so. Israel and Palestine are making a little progress - finally - on settling the borders and giving Palestine some space. But I don't think what settles Palestine is going to do much for the rest of the Islamic world.

[DVV]

Amazing Dejan, thanks for your perspective on this ticklish subject  

Not at all; actually, I was rather worried that I might bore you with mu musings on the subject.

But if there ever was a cultural bastard, I'm him. 4 years of Christian orthodox school in a communist country of Yugoslavia, a year in a muslim English language school in Turkey, two years in a muslim Pakistan embassy school still in Turkey, last year in Christian Orthodox cum communist school in Yugoslavia, three years of grammar school in England, last year in Yugoslavia, university in Yugoslavia. Lived in Egypt for two years. Dad worked for the UN as a professor of mechanical elements and UNIDO in a car factory in Egypt.

To the west, I got as far as USA - unfortunately for me, only the Eastern Seaboard, en error I regret to this day and am determined to correct in the future. To the east, I got as far as taipei, Taiwan. To the south, as far as Kenya, to the north as far as Scotland.

My greatest fortune in life is having met some truly wonderful people from all over. It's true that human goodness and kindness, just as calousness and treachery, recognize no borders, belong to no system, have no fixed origin or terminal point. Life is a miracle, and it has tried hard to show its many facets; that alone merits extreme respect of life as such.

I never met anyone on this list, but believe me, the first time I come to USA, I'll make it a point to meet as many as I can, and damn the cost. Ditto for Oz - I'd sign away a year or two of life to spend an afternoon interlaced with cold beers with Hugh "The AKSA Man". After many messages, I KNOW we would hit it off.

Everywhere I look, I find people I'd like to meet, or people I am both happy and proud to have met. After 22 years of marriage, I think I love my wife more than when we got married, or perhaps just more profoundly. My son and I are inseparable. Even my cat is well behaved.

That's why I say life is a miracle; I only wish more politicians thought so too. Or just thought, period.

Hard to put this together with my critical view of western culture, isn't it? But individuals can transcend their cultures and grow larger; look hard enough and you'll find them everywhere. I have managed to avoid ever putting an equal sign between anybody's country of origin and the person as such, a philosophy which has served me well.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

DVV

I'm glad you posted this as it gives a real perspective on these events and not just what is fed to us through the media.

I have family who have been through such events and cannot comprehend what they went through for years.... yet they remain sane and do not show any hate, just glad that they survived.

Fortunately Australia has been spared these events on it's own soil but unfortunately the clock is ticking and it's only a matter of time.

There are three countries I have not been to, but would love to visit. In no particular order, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. I have no idea why, but I have a feeling I'd feel good in those places.

And I will, as soon as I am able.

Cheers,
DVV

[Bemopti123]

DVV, you have an extraordinary background.  Hope you can make it to the US someday, especially to NYC, on time for one of these monthly Raves that we host.  There will be plenty of people who you could talk to about things that you wrote about.  

Paul J S Keum

[DVV]

DVV, you have an extraordinary background.  Hope you can make it to the US someday, especially to NYC, on time for one of these monthly Raves that we host.  There will be plenty of people who you could talk to about things that you wrote about.  

Paul J S Keum

Thank you, Paul. Yes, my background is, well, somewhat exotic. I wish I could say it was my doing, but in truth, it was mostly the circumstances I was blessed with. For example, I learnt English in 3 months flat from zero to hero, almost native speaker - but, I was born with an ear for languages, and then put in a street in Ankara, Turkey, where something like 90% of its inhabitants were US Air Force families. The only kids I had to play with were Americans. These were in fact absolutely ideal conditions to pick up a language, laboratory quality. Of course, my late dad helped a lot as well, by teaching me grammar. But I know for a fact most kids would do about the same; at that age, 10 or 11, they naturally soak up knowledge like sponges.

Held No.1 issues of most Marvel comics in my hands. Still read comics to this day. Especially French.

To my shame, I never used this gift again. So, although by bloodline I am 25% Austrian, I don't speak German. That's a waste of natural talent only I am to blame for.

Actually, I was in New York in March-April 1970, then in December 1988 and lastly in April 1991. From the hip place it was in 1970, I saw it turn to something more like a Middle East market place in 1991, at least from the 6th avenue up.

Boston isn't my kind of town. Washington DC is too pompous. I liked Philadelphia, though. LOVED a few small towns I passed through. For contrast, never saw a place like Poughkeepsie (spelling?) anywhere else. 1930-ies railway station to Vanderbilt mansion - that's Contrast with a capital C! At least in 1970, when I was there.

But audio is my first and greatest love in things material, followed by cars, or one car in particular, my own (now, THAT surprised you, surely!), because it was custom tailored to my requirements. Should be finished by tomorrow night.

So, I am a member of several audio clubs, not all in my own country. Like most here, I also have my audio greats, not exactly idols, but people I have tremendous respect for. I don't choose my music, it chooses me - if I listen to it, and it stirs emotions, I like it. If it doesn't, I'm wasting my time.

Oh yes, and I own a company manufacturing audio products.

Cheers,
DVV

[maxwalrath]

If the terrorists were really kicking up this fuss about Israel, they would be attacking Israel. But they don't do that. Because it's suicidal? Hardly an issue - they are already engaged in suicidal techniques, against the world's superpowers. Because it would call down American wrath on their homeland? They already have that problem. Pushing Israel into the sea isn't going to end this. ...

Israel's news coverage is very different here than in the rest of the world. I would bet that 90% of Americans don't know that about 5 times more Palestinians are killed each year by the Israeli army as there are Israelis killed by suicide bombings. Israel is taking steps to curb terrorism (right or wrong...I've never been to Israel so can't say how I'd feel had I been) that break so many international rules. Almost every country in the world with the exception of the US sees something wrong with the way Israel is handling the situation.

Our backing of Israel at the UN and our security council veto is the only thing preventing a UN resolution saying Israel is breaking UN rules.

From the point of view of the Arab media, the US, in contrast to the rest of the world, gives Israel permission to operate in a way that contradicts international law.

This isn't the only issue extremists have with the US, but it's on the list.

[WerTicus]

One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

America, england, australia, israel have all been the target of bombs from freedom fighters for various reasons that we probably might never understand completely.

You can bet that america, england, australia and israel have done far more damage to these people before these things occured.  australia less directly than the others but you mostly dont get much other than propoganda from the media here in australia.  the ignorant masses dont notice much though, they are just too busy buying their bose stereos.

Our little whimp of a prime minister was the first one to jump into americas retarded oil crusade. As a result australians are going to die with the next set of bombs, thanks jonnie!

[DVV]

One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

America, england, australia, israel have all been the target of bombs from freedom fighters for various reasons that we probably might never understand completely.

You can bet that america, england, australia and israel have done far more damage to these people before these things occured.  australia less directly than the others but you mostly dont get much other than propoganda from the media here in australia.  the ignorant masses dont notice much tho ...

Good point, WerTicus!

It seems obvious from human history that ANY AND EVERY government tends to get out of control as much as it can. There has been no government known to man that has not had its clandestine operations, from old Roman governments to this day.

We never learn the whole truth, and consequently, we never know what has been done in our name, much less how and at whose expense. When we see and feel the lashback, we wonder why. And we are all fed propagnada, no matter what we call it, by the media, which are more and more becoming the tools of governments to manipulate us.

And it all revolves around Dr Goebbel's (Hitler's propaganda minister) principle that if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. And believe me, it's done masterfully these days, and I've been in the media for some 19 years.

There are so many examples it's mind boggling. Terrorism itself is a fairly pure articulation of the other side's point of view when it is powerless to stand up to its opponent(s) in the media and on the battlefield. First the media blacken somebody no end, they do so for anything between two years to two months, depending on how tough a nut somebody is expected to be, then the military move in. It's been like that since the Vietnam affair.

Take Iraq as an example. Where are the much touted weapons of mass destruction? Who's asking about them now? Who was called out to answer for that transparent lie? Who will be called out to answer for the fact that after that glorious victory, the US death toll alone continues to rise on a daily basis, with no end anyhwere in sight? Other than deposing Saddam, who was a tyrant indeed, what has been achieved and/or solved? Why are the media not screaming 1/10 of what they were screaming about Saddam?

Why then wonder if terrorists prosper? If about the only thing a typical president or prime minister could lose his office for is a financial scandal in his own country, while foreign affairs blunders up to and including war are obviously forgivable "mistakes", is terrorism not also becoming a very specific, albeit perverse, corrective mechanism of worl affairs?

And what is more perverse, terrorism as a lashback, or almost complete immunity of politicians from responsibility?

Scary, isn't it?

Cheers,
DVV

[WerTicus]

yeah the world is screwed as usual.

there is no such thing as good an bad though - its rich vs poor. or corporations vs consumers it would seem.

bush is so obviously a puppet to corporations its just amazing that the average person is so stupid to have voted him in again.

our prime minister was re elected on the issue that interest rates would rise under the opposition... as if they have any control over that - its related to the whole world and australia of all places has zero influence on the world stage.  interest rates went up anyway - stupidity rules.

its no wonder politicians arnt interested in improvement of the school system it would just lead to them getting voted out and being less able to control the population through the media.

[AKSA]

There are numerous methods of political control in a democracy.  Here are five which work very well in a one vote one man system.

The most effective is the education system.  If directed to rote learning, there is a good chance insufficient citizens will become clever enough to see the ruses most governments use to ensure economic and judicial servitude (these define compliance and obedience) to the status quo.  The most blatant use of rote learning is seen in military or feudal regimes, and often the writing system aids and abets this principle.

The next most effective is the financial system, particularly the credit organisations and the fines structures now so prevalent in our amoral society.  To control citizens some form of incarceration is necessary;  we have now created a 'virtual' prison where a combination of lifestyle marketing, easy debt and Government collusion have joined forces to produce a debtors prison, which ensures hip pocket nerve vulnerability in most consumers.  This vulnerability is easily exploited at the time of elections.

The third is the legal and judicial system, which ensures that 'winning' a court case is merely a matter of savvy marketing and a deep pocket;  most politicians are lawyers so this merely mandates a 'do nothing' approach to lawyer services and billing.

The fourth is the police system, which tends to intimidate the lower socio-economic groups, since they have insufficient resources to access legal representation.  In a world where the judicial system is reserved only for those with the financial resources to access it, the police will always have the whip hand, particularly if they are armed and backed by firearms AND vigorous and aggressive Police Prosecutors.  

I should mention the 'Fifth Column', the press.  Their focus is not so much to tell the truth, but to sell their media services.  To maintain their privileged selling position they need to curry favor with the Government of the day, so there is usually an unspoken pact between these parties, usually formalised into a license structure.  All this is necessary if we are to protect our government's domestic and foreign policy initiatives, which are designed to ensure territorial imperatives, promote domestic stability, marshall a continuing energy supply, facilitate corporate exploitation and preserve arms balance.  Public sentiment is an extremely powerful aspect of modern life, and the worst excesses must be curbed at any cost if a democracy is to be stable.  In many ways I find I agree with this dictum;  when the public panics, the results are appalling, and often many die.

I would say that none of this is surprising, or even particularly bad.  The people in control of our governments have achieved their position by working existing systems, and their personality type, work ethic, competitive outlook and morality is no different to leaders in any position.   It's worth saying that in many democracies it is still possible to rise to positions of great power from humble, lower class beginnings;  in Australia we have had locomotive drivers as Prime Ministers, and the US has its share of Presidents from humble backgrounds too.  We are all astonished when a politician or corporate flyer is exposed for venal, self-serving behaviour.  But it is our naivete which feeds this moral outrage, since as a species over thousands of years we have devised systems across the world where precisely these people are routinely promoted to high office.  However, if one tries to understand the forces at play, and realistically appraise ones own position in the scheme of things, it is still possible in the Western world to lead a relatively comfortable, incident-free and successful life.  The key for me has been calm and measured compliance with the system, a forgiving and generous appreciation of my fellow man, and a focus on technical and academic achievement.  I do not broadcast my political views as I am not a leader, but neither am I a follower, and given my present resources, this has been an effective survival strategy for modern life.

The Arab/Israeli conflict is the biggest thorn in the side of mid-East security, but given the respective positions of the parties involved, I can't see it will change, at least not in the short to medium term.  We are entering a transition phase in the supply and demand of oil, and it will be a turning point in the evolution of world economics.  Commensurately, there will be enormous military, economic and demographic outcomes, most of which will be traumatic.  All this will be overlayed by some of the finest physics the world will ever see.

I guess we should kill off this thread eventually;  it's not related to Aspen in any way shape or form, but it sure has been interesting!!

Cheers,

Hugh

[ginger]

A final scientific/religious thought,
An initial survey of the make up of the first universe was completed just 12 months ago. It was found that the "stuff of life", that is the Carbon, Oxygen, Nitrogen which makes up DNA and RNA (the building blocks of life) are widely and evenly scattered throughout the 1st universe (we don't actually know if there are a 2nd, 3rd etc universe).

Given that, those who would say:
- forget the universe
- forget even our piddly liitle Milky Way galaxy in that universe
- then forget our piddly little solar system "out at the unfashionable end of a liitle know spiral arm" of that galaxy
- then forget  the piddly liitle planet earth in that solar system
- then forget all of the spirtual teachings on that piddly liitle planet and claim that the entirety of the supreme being's truth is contained in one piddly little book on that planet is patently absurd. Even if the book in question was the size of the planet it would still be absurd.

Of course the reverse of this arguement applies. Given the diversity of the universe and the infinite scope of possibilities then to point to any of the teachings or any one holy book (lower case) and say that it contains no spiritual truth is just as absurd.

So when I'm applying for my airport security pass or a passport and I come to the box which say "Religion" what do I write?

Well it depends upon my mood - sometimes I write ALL and sometimes I write NONE, I'm sure that the "Supreme Being" won't mind at all - after all I'm using the brains he/she/it issued me.

If you want to call the SB God, Allah, Helen or Butch, or even Garuda or the Rainbow Serpent, then feel free. All names are equally valid.
If you want to murder a random selection of the SBs children in his/her/its name then might I suggest, respectfully of course, that you're brain could use some exersize.

Cheers,
Ginger

Some Robert Heinlein Quotes:
"Violence is the first resort of the incompetent"
"Most gods conceived of by man have the morals and manners of a spoiled child"