AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Aspen Amplifiers => Topic started by: AKSA on 11 Oct 2008, 10:59 pm
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As most here know, I decided not to go to RMAF, largely as a result of the economic climate. I disappointed Wayne of Bolder Cables (and myself) but I couldn't justify the cost. I absolutely loved the US, and Denver and surrounds is one of the most stunning environments I've ever visited.
However, those fortunate enough to be Stateside will have the option of attending, and I'd LOVE to hear your opinions!
Please, post your impressions here.....
Hugh
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Well, having noticed that no one has responded here, I suppose I'd best post a few words as I did attend RMAF last weekend. It might have been better had I posted on Monday just after returning, but it didn't happen. I'll try not to be redundant with things others have posted on the various forums.
This was the 5th RMAF. I have attended them all as I'm only a half day's drive away from Denver. Each show has had its own flavor to me. This year it was remarkably more up market than previous shows. There also seemed to be a return of the big horns. There were quite a few of these at the first show, but have largely been absent since then. There were a lot of first time foreign exhibitors this year, most all completely new and unfamiliar to me. Attendance, especially on Saturday afternoon seemed to be less than in previous years. However, without knowing registration numbers it is hard to know. The show has expanded and is more spread out than before. Still, only the 5th floor of the middle tower seemed to always have lots of folks in the halls and rooms.
Rooms of note: Siegfried Linkwitz and his Orion’s were in a Madisound sponsored room. This was my first chance to hear these after years of following SL's website and various writings on forums. I use the same drivers in my speaker systems and was very interested to finally hear the Orion’s. The system was SL's own, with his beloved ATI amp, and I would presume he also set up the room. I visited this room several times during the show. I found myself rather disappointed with everything here. The music sounded quite ordinary, in fact rather dull and boring lacking low level detail and ambience in the music. The music was the same even when I sat in the proper sweet spot chair in the front row middle. I don't know what would have made the music sound "special" as the speaker design and drivers are top notch. I suspect a better amplifier. I've always been a bit miffed at SL's reasoning for the ATI home theatre amp.
Rick Craig's Selah Audio room is always a major stop for me. Rick designed my speakers 6 years ago, and they remain the pinnacle of his design curve. He may have equaled my design, but he's never surpassed it. Just my opinion of course, and I have the only pair.
A new vendor this year was Veloce from Philadelphia. Shown here were battery powered electronics and Kharma Ceramique 3.2 speakers. The battery charging system was fully explained to me and the implementation into a Class D amp was superb. The charging system is always off when the electronics are playing. Amps will play 20-25 hours per charge and recharge in a few hours, preferably overnight. The sound was very quiet. There was also a rather glossy looking linestage, and it gets 100 hours of play per charge. The Kharma's are ridiculously expensive for a 7 inch floorstanding two-way, but they sound fabulous and I've always liked them since hearing them at the second RMAF in a Kharma room.
I always enjoy visiting Joe Kubala, the Kubala of Kubala-Sosna cables. Joe usually shows with systems costing over $100k. But this year he went budget with speakers from a new company from Croatia, complete with Mario from Croatia. Joe always gets a nice sound in his RMAF room, always much better than most other rooms at the show. Maybe it's the cables......
Joe is also just about the friendliest guy exhibiting at the show. I've gotten acquainted with him just from visiting his room so often the past three years at RMAF.
Horns aren't really my idea of home audio, but one could only admire the wood artistry of the Oswald Mill horns made of solid cherry wood. They sounded fine, but of course are the size of a refrigerator.
By far the most enjoyable room for me was the Soundings room. Soundings is a Denver dealer, with store only a couple blocks away from the Marriot. I've known the owner, Rod Tomsen, for 15 years as I was a regular customer throughout the 90's. Last year I only stopped in to say hello, but then found myself rather captured by his "Master Set" speaker setup and the music that the speakers then created. This year I spent a LOT of time in Rod's room. I have finally learned most of the steps and tips and tweaks of the Master Set setup method and have now successfully done this on my own system after returning from the show.
Briefly, Master Set is a step by step speaker set up method. When correctly done, the speakers are a single source of sound in the room. And the sound is essentially the same anywhere in the room. Hearing is believing and your ears do not lie. Trust them!
Rod was also showing a brand new speaker from Vienna Acoustics called The Music which uses a brand new coaxial driver designed by Peter Gansterer of VA and made by Eton of Germany. This driver is nearly flat from 120hz to 15khz. The speaker has an added super tweeter, and low bass drivers. Oh, top of the line performance, with price to match. Rod was driving these with a Jeff Rowland ice power amp.
As I spent a lot of time here, I noticed that the room got a lot of traffic with many people staying a half hour or more, not the usual 1-2-3 minute song and out.
There is one last thing about Master Set. Once you hear this, you can never go back to conventional speaker set up where the speakers are just randomly plunked into the room acting as individual sound sources bouncing sound all over and around the room. Ever notice how the sound is different in every single seat or listening position? Move your head and the music moves all around?
Just think about focusing binoculars, where two individual lens tubes are focused into one view. Until the lenses are focused, can you truly see anything? Speakers need to be focused the same way. Master Set will do that. It's about matching pressure between the speakers and not about the distance between the speaker to you! It's a fundamentally different way to set speakers.
And that was my RMAF 2008.
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Now that was a very interesting read. Where/how can I find out more about this setup? Thanks for the post. :D
Edit;; reading about it now,, thanks again.
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Now that was a very interesting read. Where/how can I find out more about this setup? Thanks for the post. :D
Edit;; reading about it now,, thanks again.
I may post something on The Lab once I get it written up.
Where are you reading about Master Set? I made a post on diyaudio loudspeaker forum a few days ago, but I've not read anything anywhere on the net about Master Set.
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Here's a little addition to my earlier post. The problem with waiting a few days to post is that things get forgotten.
One of the things about this years show that was very different from past shows was the number of rooms using computer based audio as a music source. The fidelity was fine. But there always seemed to be someone married to a laptop, or else there was a laptop on display in the middle of the equipment setup drawing rather unwanted visual attention. If you had your own disc and wanted to have it played you were usually out of luck in these rooms.
And one room I failed to mention that I visited a couple times was the Ridge Street sponsored room. There was quite a good speaker in this room, a small Avalon lookalike with granite sides, and quite good sound. Unfortunately there was a ton of electronic gear spread all over the floor of the setup, roped off, and it was a computer based audio source. Nevertheless, it was quite a nice room.
Steve
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Now that was a very interesting read. Where/how can I find out more about this setup? Thanks for the post. :D
Edit;; reading about it now,, thanks again.
I may post something on The Lab once I get it written up.
Where are you reading about Master Set? I made a post on diyaudio loudspeaker forum a few days ago, but I've not read anything anywhere on the net about Master Set.
here is the link,,,another good read,,,thanks again,, as this seems worth pursuing
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1197744079&read&keyw&zzsumiko
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Now that was a very interesting read. Where/how can I find out more about this setup? Thanks for the post. :D
Edit;; reading about it now,, thanks again.
I may post something on The Lab once I get it written up.
Where are you reading about Master Set? I made a post on diyaudio loudspeaker forum a few days ago, but I've not read anything anywhere on the net about Master Set.
here is the link,,,another good read,,,thanks again,, as this seems worth pursuing
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1197744079&read&keyw&zzsumiko
Wow, I've not read anything on audiogon forums for a few years, but that was a very good read. Now that I've set and reset my own speakers after hours of picking Rod's brain at RMAF, I understand most everything in that thread. The description of the Iron Chef method was informative. But doing a 15 step method in 20-30 minutes? Oh ya, Iron Chef. Rod Tomsen will typically take 3 hours to do a fresh Master Set. I reset my speakers yesterday and I spent 3 1/2 hours with it. Irregardless, as mentioned in that audiogon thread numerous times, Master Set will transform your music listening. It deserves lots of time. Afterall, how much time do you take in selecting a component?
I think I can get some Master Set basic steps written up with tips for diy Master Set. EVERYONE should do this, NO exceptions.
Steve
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Steve,
Many thanks for the great report, and the quiet, measured thought behind it. I hold your audio ideas in very high regard, and am grateful you've shared them.
Interesting comment about SL's Orion. I've heard two in Oz, and I think I agree. I fervently believe that the missing link is ASP power supply and amp; SL insists these make no difference, but I know he is wrong. I have tried to discuss this with him, but he is not interested.
The Master Set is really, really significant. I might have to hire you to set it up in my appalling sound 'studio' on your return!!
I will check that Audiogon reference.
I've just returned from four days away in South Australia, where I attended the 40 year reunion of my graduating college class (ahem, I'll have you know I'm much older than I look!). It was great. Two of my old teacher, now 82 and 85, were there, and spoke. In some sense, the reunion was surreal. I am happy to say that after 40 years, all my schoolmates, including me, have finally grown up!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Steve,
Many thanks for the great report, and the quiet, measured thought behind it. I hold your audio ideas in very high regard, and am grateful you've shared them.
Interesting comment about SL's Orion. I've heard two in Oz, and I think I agree. I fervently believe that the missing link is ASP power supply and amp; SL insists these make no difference, but I know he is wrong. I have tried to discuss this with him, but he is not interested.
The Master Set is really, really significant. I might have to hire you to set it up in my appalling sound 'studio' on your return!!
I will check that Audiogon reference.
I've just returned from four days away in South Australia, where I attended the 40 year reunion of my graduating college class (ahem, I'll have you know I'm much older than I look!). It was great. Two of my old teacher, now 82 and 85, were there, and spoke. In some sense, the reunion was surreal. I am happy to say that after 40 years, all my schoolmates, including me, have finally grown up!
Cheers,
Hugh
Hugh,
There is a thread on diyaudio concerning the Orions at the show. As expected it's about 90% positive impression. I tend to agree with the couple of "less impressed" posts. After reading about these speakers for years, I expected real audio magic to happen, and it didn't. I was stunned with the ordinariness of the sound and music.
Master Set is significant! It allows maximum performance from the complete audio system, with nothing hidden. Therefore it's a great evaluation tool for any component in the system. The audiogon link is good. It mirrors most everyone's opinion who has had Rod set up their speakers.
Steve
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I agree about Orion ASP, it kills the great potential. I have heard the Orion with upgrade opamps, but not much improvement, 20 per channel is just too much, especially in this day of cheap digital crossovers. In raw performance it was decent, clear highs and impressive clean bass. The love was washed off.
I'm interested in the Master Set also. Would love to try it. Or some other good speaker placement other than random symmetrical.
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Gentlemen,
I'm not so sure that the Orion suffers from the ASP design or all those opamps. I do believe that the ASP power supply may be a big deal though. After 18 months of listening to the Orions with the stock ASP and stock power supply I was very, very happy with the result. Two people have auditioned my Orions; one has ordered Plutos and the other is on the brink of ordering Orions. After all of that, about six weeks ago, I finally installed the power supply that Hugh designed for the ASP many moons ago. Quoting from my e-mail report to Hugh:
Switching to your power supply brought improvement that reminds me very much of the sweetness, clarity, and agility that the GK-1 brought to my system when I first turned it on. It seems like the high end goes a lot further with this power supply. If this "extended high end" impression holds up under continued listening (and comparison with the stock power supply) it might be interesting in light of this post: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126550 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126550) , particularly this:
"Only reservation is highs are missing sparkle or air (could be due to 'non-audiophile' components - same problem in plutos - highs are not 'hair raising')"
and
"Due to ultimate lack of detail/sparkle in the highs, acoustic guitar and symbols stop one step short of 'perfectly real' [I used to play acoustic steel string guitar, along with several other family members, and also drum players, so I'm fairly familiar with their sounds, up close and personal
I think your power supply brings a lot of detail/sparkle to the highs...
And a week later, I wrote:
Geeez, Hugh.. the music sounds absolutely phenomenal. Listening time has been short lately, but last night I listened to an old circa 1982 CD (Handel's Water Music, Delos, can't remember the orchestra or conductor). That CD has never sounded good enough to capture my attention, but it was just barely too good to throw away. Last night, it sounded fascinating... the instruments sounded fresh, alive, fun. What a transformation!
On Jens' "My Music" CD Shostakovitch Symphony #9 (I think), there is a section where solo violin plays a lilting melody with enough sweetness to make your sweet tooth hurt... this has always sounded that sweet, but it was always "smooth and sweet", now I can clearly hear the bowing (string texture) at the start of the notes as well.
A lot of folks on the audio boards complain about the number of terrible CDs, that only a select few sound good. I'm finding that as my system gets better, more and more CDs sound pretty good (definitely listenable, definitely enjoyable). Of course, the extremely well-recorded stuff sounds f'ing fantastic.
In the last few weeks I have been gearing up to do a good A/B comparison which I had intended to post here (I have two sets of ASP boards, identical except that one pair is stock, the other pair is also stock except that it lacks the stock power supply parts and is powered by Hugh's supply). For this kind of testing I wanted both sets of boards to have many hours on them, etc. Unfortunately, I will be taking a new assignment at work beginning November 1 that will keep me largely but not entirely away from home (and my Orions) for most of a year. So, this testing may have to/probably will be delayed. Thus, it is my strong impression that Hugh's ASP power supply is a big deal, but I probably will not have the time to more thoroughly test that impression in a "no-excuses" shoot-out.
I have tried the "upgraded" LM 4562 opamps and found that they added excessive hiss in my system (a few others have reported similar results) and went back to the stock OPA2134. Philip PT914 posted long ago to report significant improvement from cap upgrades in the ASP, and evenutally I will try that myself, but I think Philip has shown that further improvement is more than likely possible. Eventually we may get to the point where the opamps can be shown to be the main limit to performance. There was a thread on DIY Audio ( http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105092&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105092&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1) ) aimed at developing a simplified, less opamp intensive alternative to SL's ASP, but the thread eventually dried up with no clear result.
Regarding amps, I've made great strides as I've done more and more "Platinum" mods to my GK-1 and Life Force amps, so I know as a matter of fact that "amps matter" in the Orion, and there are others who have had similar results. What I have not done is to compare the SL-recommended ATI amps with Aspen gear, and I have no realistic way of doing so.
Peter
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I'm interested in the Master Set also. Would love to try it. Or some other good speaker placement other than random symmetrical.
Master Set is the ONLY method of speaker setup that will match the sound pressure level of each speaker, so that a single sound source is the result. All other speaker placements leave the speakers as 2 independent sound sources. Only luck gets you decent sound, and usually only in one very small spot, the good old sweet spot.
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ONLY?
Sorry, pal, but I'm not buying that monopoly story. There are many accounts raving about rooms at the show that did just fine on short notice without this Master Set procedure. And many a miracle has come and gone over the years. This one will too. It's really just a matter, as always, of who makes how much money off it before it is relegated to the joke pile.
Everything I have read about Master Set sounds like a sales pitch and relentless bombardment by Rodney's acolytes does nothing to reduce that impression.
The only method that works? What nonsense. Everybody knows Combac dots are the real answer - or Magic Bricks - or Room Tunes. And so it goes.......... There isn't any magic bullet and there isn't any absolute sound.
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ONLY?
Sorry, pal, but I'm not buying that monopoly story. There are many accounts raving about rooms at the show that did just fine on short notice without this Master Set procedure. And many a miracle has come and gone over the years. This one will too. It's really just a matter, as always, of who makes how much money off it before it is relegated to the joke pile.
Everything I have read about Master Set sounds like a sales pitch and relentless bombardment by Rodney's acolytes does nothing to reduce that impression.
The only method that works? What nonsense. Everybody knows Combac dots are the real answer - or Magic Bricks - or Room Tunes. And so it goes.......... There isn't any magic bullet and there isn't any absolute sound.
Hey Pal,
Have you heard a pair of speakers set up with Master Set?
Or did you just read the audiogon thread by one of Rod's customers?
I don't mind your skepticism, as I would be too had I not heard speakers set up like this, and given the audio habit of voicing hyperbole about some new thing. But until you hear speakers set up with this method, you really have no basis to voice anything other than skeptism.
I realize that saying something like ONLY may sound a bit over the top. But nevertheless, Master Set is certainly the best way to set up speakers that I've come across.
And don't worry, this isn't some magic dot, tweak, a black box, or software that you buy. There is nothing to buy! This is something you can do yourself in a couple hours or so.
Stay tuned for more.
Steve
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Steve - Central to the audiophile mystique is the notion that there is magic to be had in manipulation of components. And it is certainly true that seasoning can make things different. However, when all is said and done, there is no way to fool mother nature. It is easier by far to fool yourself and I believe that is the foundation upon which the success of tweaks is built.
Audiophiles judge the performance of their system on what they hear. The flaw in this is the assumption that their hearing is a fixed absolute. It isn't. Our perception varies perpetually and cannot be relied upon to evaluate abstracts with any consistency. The changes that we swear by more likely occur in ourselves than in the hardware. And different is not necessarily better.
So, given all that, I'm sure you can understand my lack of enthusiasm for yet another earth-shaking, game changing, headline-grabbing speaker set-up innovation. However, if you want to come to my house and perform this miracle, you are welcome to do so. I can always put them back where they were if the miracle doesn't take. . . . . and thank you if it does.
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I haven't yet tried the Master Set/Iron Chef setup method but intend to have a go at it in the next couple of months. It sounds like a logical and methodical approach that may be a great way to set up speakers if you don't have a measurement system. If the key factors are to establish the speaker positions where each speaker has the flattest response curve possible and the curves/levels for each speaker are as closely matched as possible (all from the listening position), then I would imagine that both methods (measurement and Master Set/Iron Chef) would lead to the speakers being in near identical positions. Further, if the particular room has no substantive distortions, the setup may indeed be close to symmetrical in some rooms. Of course, I used my ears to confirm the settings too.
However, if the target is not the flattest response possible for each speaker but rather some curve that sounds best to the listener, then I could see how the Master Set/Iron Chef method could provide subjectively superior results to measurement ...especially if the listener does not know what sort of curve sounds best to them in order to achieve it via measurement. I'm referring to logarithmic or psychoacoustic curves here, not linear, to better reflect how we humans hear.
I set my speakers up using Acoustisoft ETF5 software with the psychoacoustic option and was lucky enough, with a symmetrical setup, to achieve a pretty flat response across the audible range with both speakers curves tracking each other very closely, all measured at the listening position. The music was indeed very free of the speakers and the walls seemed to just disappear.
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Macro,
I can appreciate your skepticism; it should be mandatory for all audiophiles as there is so much hype out there. But I can add to the argument here.
I visited the Denver Sound room at RMAF with Steve in 2007. The sound was very, very good, and I saw little evidence of hyper expensive components, just middle of the road high end.
What entranced me was the balance of the sound, and the solidity of the imaging, which worked just about anywhere in the room. It was not boomy, didn't shred my ears, had lovely 'body' to the sound, particularly on vocals which all too often sound thin, and it meant you could lie back in an easy chair and really immerse yourself in the music. This to me is what reproduced music should be like.
The hype arises because of marketing, obviously, but also because describing sound with words is like trying to explain the difference between red and blue to a man blind from birth. Commercial aspects aside, this is really difficult, and reflects a real need because an audition is not always possible. This applies particularly with my gear, where I sheepishly require payment for a product most have not heard. This is an absurd situation, but the solution is bricks and mortar hifi shops all over the country and with the web and Ebay it is becoming clear to blind Freddy that the consumer is not prepared to pay the oncosts incurred in such establishments.
This puts more and more pressure on reviews and testimonials, which as you may realise are often 'sponsored' in some form or other, usually advertising, and which therefore negate their benefits. Add to that the fact that different folks listen for different things, and write and express themselves differently, and you have it..... the horns of a dilemma.
I believe caveat emptor is more important than it ever was. One way around this is to send product to customers on approval, and subsequent purchase. The problem with this is risk to the manufacturer; this is never a preferred commercial method.
Competition and customer expectation is higher than it's ever been. I listened to a Xindak 200W monoblock recently, and it was beautifully made, gave sensational performance, and cost around $US6K the pair brand new with good warranty, thousands less than the reputable US brands. In the face of this competitive onslaught, it's very difficult for western manufacturers to compete, and since most consumers show champagne taste on beer income there are no prizes for guessing who will ultimately win this competition.
In closing, it's not all bad. For myself, I focus on creativity, original design, and service, particularly in my more sophisticated offerings like the Soraya. My goal is zero distortion, ultimate resolution, and palpable musicality, and those who buy my products are attracted to this approach, and the affordable prices. Fortuitously my prices have recently taken a tumble because of the low AUD; low because US investors seeking very high investment returns in Oz stocks and bonds have recently sold off all their AUD to satisfy abrupt liquidity demands Stateside. Bad for Oz consumers, great for Oz manufacturers!
Thank you for your contributions. Everyone here is courteous and you will find quite willing to chat.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Steve - Central to the audiophile mystique is the notion that there is magic to be had in manipulation of components. And it is certainly true that seasoning can make things different. However, when all is said and done, there is no way to fool mother nature. It is easier by far to fool yourself and I believe that is the foundation upon which the success of tweaks is built.
Audiophiles judge the performance of their system on what they hear. The flaw in this is the assumption that their hearing is a fixed absolute. It isn't. Our perception varies perpetually and cannot be relied upon to evaluate abstracts with any consistency. The changes that we swear by more likely occur in ourselves than in the hardware. And different is not necessarily better.
So, given all that, I'm sure you can understand my lack of enthusiasm for yet another earth-shaking, game changing, headline-grabbing speaker set-up innovation. However, if you want to come to my house and perform this miracle, you are welcome to do so. I can always put them back where they were if the miracle doesn't take. . . . . and thank you if it does.
Macro,
You have attributed a lot of various attributes to me that are not necessarily so. You've also made a lot of general assumptions about various things that have nothing whatsoever to do with anything that I have posted about. And lastly, you've tried to tell me that I can't hear. Geez, hard to have much of a comeback after all that.
All I can suggest is that if you get the opportunity to listen to music in a room where the speakers have been set up with Master Set, that you take advantage of this opportunity. Then you will have a basis for critique, rather than to just make a general dismissal.
Steve
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I haven't yet tried the Master Set/Iron Chef setup method but intend to have a go at it in the next couple of months. It sounds like a logical and methodical approach that may be a great way to set up speakers if you don't have a measurement system. If the key factors are to establish the speaker positions where each speaker has the flattest response curve possible and the curves/levels for each speaker are as closely matched as possible (all from the listening position), then I would imagine that both methods (measurement and Master Set/Iron Chef) would lead to the speakers being in near identical positions. Further, if the particular room has no substantive distortions, the setup may indeed be close to symmetrical in some rooms. Of course, I used my ears to confirm the settings too.
However, if the target is not the flattest response possible for each speaker but rather some curve that sounds best to the listener, then I could see how the Master Set/Iron Chef method could provide subjectively superior results to measurement ...especially if the listener does not know what sort of curve sounds best to them in order to achieve it via measurement. I'm referring to logarithmic or psychoacoustic curves here, not linear, to better reflect how we humans hear.
I set my speakers up using Acoustisoft ETF5 software with the psychoacoustic option and was lucky enough, with a symmetrical setup, to achieve a pretty flat response across the audible range with both speakers curves tracking each other very closely, all measured at the listening position. The music was indeed very free of the speakers and the walls seemed to just disappear.
Darren,
Sorry to say but you are completely mistaken about the principals of Master Set. Master Set is about matching the sound pressure levels of each speaker to each other, making the sound pressure of the two as one and equal to what your ears hear. This makes the two speakers into a single sound source. Master Set has absolutely nothing to do with any of the things you have mentioned.
There is really no documentation on Master Set anywhere at this time. My couple posts and that audiogon thread is about all there is at the present time. There may be a magazine article or two in the future, but of course the article(s) will be in audio mags, rather than something like The Economist.
And praising/raving posts tend to get a lot of polarized responses.
Steve
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Master Set basic instruction guide is now posted in The Lab.
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For those who missed it, Audio Federation does the best job of showing the Show, with pics of every room.
Here's the link:http://www.audiofederation.com/hifiing/2008/RMAF2008/report/index.htm
Apparently attendance at the Show was up 5%, and I think they got the official registration numbers. Anyway, if you have some time, a fast internet connection, and didn't make the Show, you can at least see it in pictures.
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nice post :thumb: Steve
Cheers
Rom
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I agree Rom,
Steve, my thanks, great link!
Cheers,
Hugh
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I agree Rom,
Steve, my thanks, great link!
Cheers,
Hugh
Hugh,
If you want to relive memories of last year's show, just go to the audiofederation website and click the link for last year's show. You can see your room again.
Steve
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Some good points were raised last week by Macrojack and Darren, and I'd like to further address them.
Macrojack is correct in mentioning that new tweaks and things constantly come out, all praised to glory be. It's quite easy to get cynical about most everything, especially after trying a few of these "instant guides to audio nirvana", only to find they seem to make no difference. After a few times of that, one usually just ignores these things, and certainly one does not post the praiser/poster.
When I first heard speakers set with Master Set at RMAF 2007, it was the second time in the room before I paid much attention, and really it was the third time to listen that I really began paying attention, and wanted to learn more. And when I commenced praising and raving about this, I got a lot of deaf ears. I did get Hugh down to the room for a short listen. He was pretty stunned by what he had heard. I'm glad he remembers this short listen.
Darren's post reflects what I might call advanced conventional speaker set up. This involves room treatments, software programs that do various things to help tweak something, and spending a lot of money in an attempt to "find it". Conventional thought has the speakers measured out evenly into the room, preferably away from sidewalls as much as possible, and moved together or apart slightly to get a good centered mono image. Then one attempts to correct all the imbalances, reflections, and abnormalities that result from this. Generally one tries to get something good and a sweet spot of listening nirvana.
Master Set does not consider any of that. It is only concerned with equalizing the sound pressure between the two speakers. The first speaker is somewhat arbitrarily placed in the room, with the caveat that this is where the bass can be "tuned". The other speaker is then adjusted to this first speaker until the sound pressure is equal. This then creates an evenly balanced stereo image, and pretty much makes the two speakers into a single sound source. And like any stationary sound source, the sound stays in the same place when you, the listener, move. In any conventional setup, the sound will not only move around with you as you move, but it will change in character.
While diy Master Set may sound like the closest thing to a free lunch, and everyone knows about those, you do have to have the cd. Maybe when the dvd comes out, people will feel better spending more money on this.
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Steve,
Many thanks, much appreciated. This will be an eye opener for Audiocircle members, no question.....
Ciao,
Hugh
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Guys - This Master Set exercise is First Aid. If you have an inherently handicapped speaker system, you may well benefit from this busy-ness.
You will notice that two of the most universally praised and appreciated rooms at RMAF were the Classic Audio Reproductions and Oswald's Mill rooms. The latter was utterly without room treatment and was in a very disadvantageous situation in terms of room dimensions. Still they stood out for many visitors as one of the best sounding presentations of the show. I would maintain that this was true because they, and CAR, are both very well executed horn designs.
High end audio cognescenti are discovering that the future lies in history. The Japanese figured this out twenty years ago and some of us are catching on now. Ask Ralph Karsten. He gets it. Small tube amps and high-efficiency speakers bring the best results and don't require arcane compensation exercises.
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Small tube amps and high-efficiency speakers bring the best results and don't require arcane compensation exercises.
So it makes no difference (to the sound of these hi-eff speakers at your listening chair) if you shove them in the corners or bring them out into the middle of the room? :o
I think not! :nono:
Regards,
Andy
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Guys - This Master Set exercise is First Aid. If you have an inherently handicapped speaker system, you may well benefit from this busy-ness.
You will notice that two of the most universally praised and appreciated rooms at RMAF were the Classic Audio Reproductions and Oswald's Mill rooms. The latter was utterly without room treatment and was in a very disadvantageous situation in terms of room dimensions. Still they stood out for many visitors as one of the best sounding presentations of the show. I would maintain that this was true because they, and CAR, are both very well executed horn designs.
High end audio cognescenti are discovering that the future lies in history. The Japanese figured this out twenty years ago and some of us are catching on now. Ask Ralph Karsten. He gets it. Small tube amps and high-efficiency speakers bring the best results and don't require arcane compensation exercises.
Did you attend RMAF this year? You live in western Colorado, not that far away.
The CAR room was in one of the large exhibit rooms on the ground floor. Oswald's Mill was in one of the hotel rooms, and could have benefited from a larger room if they could have afforded one. A lot of rooms got a lot of praise. You get a bit of a skewed idea of the show by just reading after show reports and posts. Most attendees don't post about it, and this year it seemed that after show postings were quite a bit less than in past years.
BTW, what makes you such an expert on Master Set, something you know NOTHING about? And why can't you just leave it alone? It's not exactly taking the audio industry by storm. It's just a way to set up speakers in a room, and can work well when implemented as designed. You just seemed so threatened by this. Why? I just don't get it.
There's plenty of room in audio for most everything, including SET's and big horns, and RMAF is a great place to see it all.
Cheer's,
Steve
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Rod from Soundings saved me about $2K in acoustic treatments when I met him at RMAF last year. I came to RMAF last year shopping for acoustical treatments believing that is what I needed since I wasn't really happy with my new speakers. Fortunately, I brought along photos of my speaker set up and listening room and showed them to Rod. He gave me a brief instruction on Master Set and recommended I first try different speaker positioning and think about acoustical treatments later. I took his advice and the difference was HUGE! I didn't buy any acoustical treatments and I'm happy with the sound I'm getting. That's not to say that acoustical treatments might not be of value, but I'm satisfied enough that I'm no longer considering that route. A good Master Set is not simple or easy, but it is effective when implemented properly. Rod is a real professional and I'm sure he could get a lot more out of my system than I did, but even the basics he taught me made a large improvement.
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Rod from Soundings saved me about $2K in acoustic treatments when I met him at RMAF last year. I came to RMAF last year shopping for acoustical treatments believing that is what I needed since I wasn't really happy with my new speakers. Fortunately, I brought along photos of my speaker set up and listening room and showed them to Rod. He gave me a brief instruction on Master Set and recommended I first try different speaker positioning and think about acoustical treatments later. I took his advice and the difference was HUGE! I didn't buy any acoustical treatments and I'm happy with the sound I'm getting. That's not to say that acoustical treatments might not be of value, but I'm satisfied enough that I'm no longer considering that route. A good Master Set is not simple or easy, but it is effective when implemented properly. Rod is a real professional and I'm sure he could get a lot more out of my system than I did, but even the basics he taught me made a large improvement.
I think I heard about you. You came to the show again this year didn't you? The comments about you got a bit of notice in the room at the time.
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Steve,
I hope the comments about 2gumby2 were all positive!!
Hugh
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I think I heard about you. You came to the show again this year didn't you? The comments about you got a bit of notice in the room at the time.
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Yes, I attended again this year and it seems you may have been in the room when I was discussing the success I had using Rod's recommendations. I'm not sure what was said after I left the room, but I can tell you Rod's advice improved the enjoyment of my system and saved me a lot of money.
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Yes, I attended again this year and it seems you may have been in the room when I was discussing the success I had using Rod's recommendations. I'm not sure what was said after I left the room, but I can tell you Rod's advice improved the enjoyment of my system and saved me a lot of money.
No, I was not in the room when you came in.
However, Rod did mention a guy who came to the show from Japan a year or two ago to buy several thousands of dollars in room treatments. But after listening to the Master Set setup, got a few tips on how to do it, and went home. Then Rod mentioned that you had come in to the room earlier that day with many many Thank You's for savings of many many thousands of dollars, simply by moving your speakers.
When you look at Rod's rooms at the show, and in the store, you can easily see how much room treatment is used.
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I live about 40 kilometers south of Hiroshima. I doubt I'll make it to RMAF next year though due to the cost of travel these days. Disappointing since my wife and I enjoy RMAF so much. I'm fortunate to have a wife that enjoys music as much as I do and she doesn't complain when I buy or build equipment, even very large subwoofers. I just put on some Corvus Corax and she dances around the room like it's a Pagan festival.
I don't recall seeing any room treatments in Rod's rooms.
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I live about 40 kilometers south of Hiroshima. I doubt I'll make it to RMAF next year though due to the cost of travel these days. Disappointing since my wife and I enjoy RMAF so much. I'm fortunate to have a wife that enjoys music as much as I do and she doesn't complain when I buy or build equipment, even very large subwoofers. I just put on some Corvus Corax and she dances around the room like it's a Pagan festival.
I don't recall seeing any room treatments in Rod's rooms.
At the show there was a small absorber on the rear wall just behind the middle seat as the seating rows were close to the back wall, otherwise there was nothing.