AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Sonneteer => Topic started by: haiderSonneteer on 16 Feb 2015, 05:11 pm
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Hi,
i have just been trying to do some research on Listener fatigue or other similar ailments. I found a Wikipidia page and lots of anecdotal stuff. does anyone know of any scientific research or even if you have your own direct experience and views I would love to hear them.
I am not just talking about Auditory fatigue which is caused by listening to music loudly but the fatigue you can get from listening to music at normal levels when listening to some equipment. Why, what, where when.etc.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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My guess is that the presence of distortion of any kind which exceeds the individuals threshold of tolerance is going to produce avoidance behavior. If it is unconscious avoidance behavior they may begin to listen to their stereo less than they might have, had distortion levels been lower or absent. They may also avoid listening to music with female vocalists or horns if there are frequency response anomalies that are within these two areas. In essence the system is making their choices for them when it comes to program material.
If conscious avoidance is occurring the individual will likely be motivated to do something about it. This generally leads to several rounds of equipment swapping until they are temporarily satisfied with the sonic outcome.
Scotty
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My experiences on listening is not a myth but reality. I don't know how well I can categorize them. I've been a serious listener since about 2000 when I invested in home audio with progressive upgrades over the years.
There is short term listening fatigue caused by equipment distortions, speakers etc.. Even if you're an experienced listener listening to distortion will tire your ears in a short time.
Loudness can fatigue initially but it's more of a function of your brain getting tired. Active listening takes a great deal of concentration and this is what tires the brain.
Long term listening fatigue is different. If you listen for extended periods like 1 or 2 weeks at a time. It's as if your brain goes into protection mode, and you become disinterested in listening to music. You may also get the feeling you're going deaf.
Now when I encountered this experience, I was afraid I was going deaf so I listened to music at low volume in the background until I had interest in deep listening again which lasted about 2 or 3 weeks.
After going through this phase which is kinda scary, I found that I can listen for extended lengths of time at fairly loud spl without fatigue on my home system. However if I went to the bar I would still get listening fatigue listening to the loud distorted PA system.
So IMO Listening Fatigue is simply the brain getting tired. You can eventually overcome as your brain gets conditioned to extended listening.
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My ears are very sensitive to brightness, so if there is any hint of brightness, I'm good for about 30 minutes. Bottom line -- if the music doesn't sound right (however you define it), why would you want to keep listening to it? So you find something else to do.
There's also a psychological element -- when you're tired, mentally drained, or don't feel well, your listening fatigue threshold may decrease significantly.
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Hyperacusis is a real phenomenon that often accompanies hearing loss and tinnitus. In this case the compression function of the audiovestibular system ain't working right.
Phonphobia is a dislike of loud sounds, and misophonia is a negative emotional response to some kind of sound (nails on a chalkboard, etc.). Listener fatigue is probably some special kind of misophonia.
If listener fatigue is real, my guess is that it must originate further up the central nervous system rather than at the middle ear, the cochlea, the auditory nerve, or the brainstem. The reason I say this is that it we can record the electrical output from these parts in response to sound, and as far as I know the responses don't decay.
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Funny thing is I never suffer any listening fatigue from live unamplified music. Mental or aural fatigue never enters into the equation. I am convinced that the problem rears its head because we are listening to an artificial source of sound and unlike reality the music is never reproduced without some form of distortion being present. The cognitive dissonance engendered by the artificiality of reproduced music contributes to the problem.
Scotty
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Scotty,
I have walked out of concerts because the musicians and or the music sucked. I would say I get fatigue from bad live music. Actually, I don't get to the point of fatigue. I just leave. But I am going to infer that there is fatigue from live music because I would have had them if I stayed.
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Good posts so far! :thumb: Listening fatigue is the one thing we must avoid at all costs, as Scotty said it will lead to not wanting to listen to music and turning the volume down lower so it's not so irritating. Producing products that do not contribute to listening fatigue is my #1 priority, I will not make compromises in this area as I believe owning components and cables that do not cause fatigue is key to our long term enjoyment of music.
Many things can cause listening fatigue, high levels of distortion are very obvious and cause it quickly, but there are other distortions that may not be measurable that contribute, I find it's mostly the material that the electrons flow through that causes these lower level distortions and a kind of listening fatigue that is hard to identify and can remain unconscious, poisoning enjoyment of music. Cheap connectors are the most prevalent, it's best to replace connectors with ones made of pure copper. Lower purity (4N and lower) silver wire accentuated leading edges and causes harshness, it's best to avoid any silver with the exception of UPOCC silver, which may be the most accurate conductor material available.
Noise on the AC power supply causes listening fatigue too, this can be very obvious with dirty AC power but can be low-level like cheap connectors and cables if it's lower levels of noise on the AC line.
Poor vibration control may also cause fatigue, a good example is speakers spiked directly to a concrete floor... the better your vibration control the less fatigue you will have.
Cheap passive parts can also be an issue... unbypassed electrolytic caps directly in the signal path or last stage of a power supply, cheap resistors, etc...
If you want a system that has the least amount of fatigue possible you must start with components that are designed properly, then address AC power using a good emi/rfi filter, deliver the AC power with top quality power cables that use pure copper connectors, plug them into IEC jacks that are also made of pure copper. Start at your source and replace all RCA or XLR jacks with pure copper units, same with binding posts.
There are also parts that cause issues that are the opposite of listening fatigue, these are parts of the system that add warmth while smearing detail. While not as bad as fatigue, the loss of detail will prevent a satisfying connection with the music. Cheap copper wire used in IC cables does the most harm, bad IC cables will completely get rid of spatial cues, reverb trails and other fine detail that should be present in the music. Improperly used passive parts, such as some carbon resistors like Kiwame will also add warmth and obliterate detail. My design goals are to preserve as much fine detail as possible while not adding distortions that can cause fatigue. In my less expensive cables I do make compromises that add warmth and reduce resolution in order to meet price points. It is much better to have a smooth, warm component than a grainy, harsh component, but neither are ultimately a good component.
Listening fatigue happens a lot faster at higher volumes, I tend to test at high volumes so it's more obvious. You should be able to listen to your system at realistic volumes without fatigue.
I am also convinced there is a correlation between certain kinds of distortion and hearing damage. A clean system is much less likely to damage your hearing vs a harsh system played at the same SPLs.
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Funny thing is I never suffer any listening fatigue from live unamplified music. Mental or aural fatigue never enters into the equation. I am convinced that the problem rears its head because we are listening to an artificial source of sound and unlike reality the music is never reproduced without some form of distortion being present. The cognitive dissonance engendered by the artificiality of reproduced music contributes to the problem.
Scotty
Yes and no. A poor design is a poor design. Meaning to me a Lean or bright, hard, prominent upper midrange, etc. An improper VTA can cause fatigue as well not just digital.
Reproduced music should hit one in the heart. Emotional impact is required from any system. Without emotional impact fatigue will rear its ugly head. Tonality and harmonic structure must be presented as close to live as possible. We can get close however the MIA real life cues are missing.
The test for any system is to pump up the volume. It should just get louder, no distortion. Lot's of ya are going to be disappointed later. Sorry.
Why the fatigue is not the question as there can be many culprits. Plating of a plug with Rhodium can cause fatigue in one system and not another.
It is the complete system that needs synergy not one part.
charles
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Hi,
i have just been trying to do some research on Listener fatigue or other similar ailments. I found a Wikipidia page and lots of anecdotal stuff. does anyone know of any scientific research or even if you have your own direct experience and views I would love to hear them.
I am not just talking about Auditory fatigue which is caused by listening to music loudly but the fatigue you can get from listening to music at normal levels when listening to some equipment. Why, what, where when.etc.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
Hard and or edgy top end. Digital done wrong. A midrange that sounds like a Kazoo. When one hears a horn for example, one hears the mouthpiece first then the bloom of the bell.
Piano and violin can be the most fatigueing of all. A poor design cannot reproduce the correct tonality. so in a nutshell it boils down to tone.
charles
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It's when you go "this doesn't sound right", you want to run a Q-tip through your ears, you turn the damned thing down and finally you shut it off.
I've had that with all solid state, solid state amp/tube preamp and tube amp/tube preamp so it's an equal opportunity thing with me.
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I think its just more "fatigue" rather then "listener fatigue". If you are sitting there listening to music for an extended period of time, your brain gets tired of the intensity of the situation. Its not any different then driving for long periods of time, or being at work and doing some task for an extended period.
That is why it is important to get up and get another beer, relax a bit and then have at 'er again. :)
Wayner
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Hi,
i have just been trying to do some research on Listener fatigue or other similar ailments. I found a Wikipidia page and lots of anecdotal stuff. does anyone know of any scientific research or even if you have your own direct experience and views I would love to hear them.
I am not just talking about Auditory fatigue which is caused by listening to music loudly but the fatigue you can get from listening to music at normal levels when listening to some equipment. Why, what, where when.etc.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
The ears become annoyed by the sound quality they are hearing.
This is a personal issue and the cause of course is bad sound.
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Funny thing is I never suffer any listening fatigue from live unamplified music. Mental or aural fatigue never enters into the equation. I am convinced that the problem rears its head because we are listening to an artificial source of sound and unlike reality the music is never reproduced without some form of distortion being present. The cognitive dissonance engendered by the artificiality of reproduced music contributes to the problem.
Scotty
Maybe visual "distortion" contributes to it. The dissonance of hearing voices and instruments coming from a particular nearby location with no visual match might make the part of our brain that tries to put this all together into a cohesive sensory experience go wtf after awhile. Just a thought.
Wayner's thought makes sense to me, too: listening fatigue is just fatigue. The beer part, too. I'm going to get a beer now, in fact.
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woodsyi, I have been fortunate enough not to pay for tickets to an unamplified musical event that has been so poor in either performance or acoustics that I have had the urge to up and leave. I don't usually go to performances that have amplified instruments or vocalists and have left many live outdoor performances that were free and featured amplified performers. Most of the time the PA system sounds like crap on steroids if it is not too loud from the get go.
I think people also have very different levels and sensitivities to distortion in music that is reproduced in the home. Some people listen to systems with frequency response errors for years that if they encountered them outside the home they would probably realize there was a problem of some kind and leave. I also suspect that unrecognized distortions in stereo systems probably account for a large percentage of equipment changes seen peoples systems. More often than not people are seeking an improvement in the "sound" of their system and what they really need is a dramatic reduction in the types and magnitudes of errors present in their system. When people realize that their system has some kind of problem, through measurement or some other type of diagnostic mechanism, then they can take action directly aimed at addressing a specific type of problem.
Ignorance is not necessarily bliss and may even be expensive in the end.
I listen to music at home for relaxation and don't view it as a task requiring a level of mental attention which would eventually lead to fatigue. However if I am engaged in listening trials of any kind then the need for a coffee break at some point is definitely in order. In my case alcohol is specifically off the menu due to how it compromises my auditory acuity. One beer and like Sgt. Schultz "I know NOTHING!".
scotty
Scotty
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My pet theory is that when we listen to an artificial reconstruction of something that we know the sound of, some part of the brain is busy trying to re-construct the sound to resemble the original. The greater the difference between what we are hearing and what we know to be reality, the harder the brain has to work. This causes the fatigue which accompanies any arduous mental activity.
Secondly, it is my guess that the more complex the distortion the harder the brain has to work, so that high levels of simple distortion–like even order harmonics added by tube amps–are tolerated, even enjoyed, while low levels of complex distortions are not tolerated so well. Complexity goes beyond the harmonic structure, of course, and includes relationships to signal dynamics and phase errors introduced by crossover components and speaker design, not to speak of digital and analog processing.
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To me its the odd harmonics and to much level in the treble(strong treble);
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This is a great discussion. Probably, there is no single answer and all of the above aply. One particular article comes to mind that I think may contribute to this topic. I don't want to start a tubed vs. SS discussion, however.
'God is in the nuances' by Markus Sauer in Stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/
(January 2000)
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My pet theory is that when we listen to an artificial reconstruction of something that we know the sound of, some part of the brain is busy trying to re-construct the sound to resemble the original. The greater the difference between what we are hearing and what we know to be reality, the harder the brain has to work. This causes the fatigue which accompanies any arduous mental activity.
Secondly, it is my guess that the more complex the distortion the harder the brain has to work, so that high levels of simple distortion–like even order harmonics added by tube amps–are tolerated, even enjoyed, while low levels of complex distortions are not tolerated so well. Complexity goes beyond the harmonic structure, of course, and includes relationships to signal dynamics and phase errors introduced by crossover components and speaker design, not to speak of digital and analog processing.
I knew I read something like this before. I found it. Here's an excerpt from Srajan Ebean's 2001 Article in Positive Feedback found here: http://www.soundstage.com/yfiles/yfiles200107.htm
Edit: He is presenting Jim Thiel's view
Proponents of properly implemented first-order designs argue that the added work of translating spatially scrambled signals into any semblance of realism causes subconscious exhaustion in our ear/brain decoder. This manifests as eventual listener fatigue. Common and readily identifiable causes of listener fatigue (to mention a few) are unsuitably high playback levels, exaggerated treble and undamped ringing from metal drivers. The fatigue caused by time-and-phase anomalies is much harder to identify. We're simply not conscious of how our brain analyzes, discounts or integrates such "reminders of artifice" into a satisfactory reconstruction of the audio signal. In fact, the relative insidiousness of these playback errors means they turn obnoxious, in an indirect way, only over the long haul. Without a clear "Aha, that's what's wrong with my system" insight, listening sessions may simply shorten. The apparent cause may be a subtle discomfort, a wandering of attention or perhaps a diminished sense of enjoyment and relaxation that listening to the system originally bestowed. Needless to say, an appreciation for the subtle benefits of designs that avoid this extra decoding on the part of our sensory system won't reveal themselves in short-term dealer demonstrations.
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I fail to find the Dr.Matti Otala distortion experiment but this are good too:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion
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I think you have to define what distortion is. In my view, it's anything reproduced that is not as the original. So if the speed is too fast or too slow, that is distortion. If the volume you are listening to the recorded music is not the same volume as the original music was played (and then recorded), its distortion. If the spectrum of musical reproduction is not the same as the original recording event, its distortion. Then (but not finally) the grinding brutality on our ears by something gone wrong (electrically or mechanically) during reproduction is distortion.
So I ask myself, can we have distortion during a live event in which none of the instruments use pre-recorded (samples) as in a synthesizer? But what if a guitar string buzzes on a fret, is that not distortion? Or is that the character of the note. And if we have a dirty Hammond B3 organ playing into a Leslie speaker, is that not distortion?
Could I become fatigued listening to a live event with all natural type of instruments? And then, what happens if I do not like the music? Will I get fatigued really quick because of internal conflict (its music, and I like music, but not this kind.....)
Wayner
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The best example of how much processing the brain does behind the scenes, can be demonstrated by listening to a recording you have made of someone who was speaking in the room while you were present.
Your brain filters out the effects that room echoes have on the sound of the human voice you listened to, while the microphone and the associated recorder do not have the benefit of any such processing and the room reverberation and the voice are both present in the recording. When the room acoustics are bad enough speech intelligibility suffers as does music reproduction. Even when the acoustics are not a problem they are still part of the equation that determines the processor loading that happens when we listen to something indoors rather than out of doors, which can occasionally approximate an anechoic chamber.
Imagine what the processor loading must be like when any form of distortion is added by the stereo system on top the amount that may already be present in the recording. Its no wonder that the complaint of listening fatigue is so frequently heard.
Scotty
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I suspect it would depend on how personally irritating one found the sound of the Leslie speaker combined with the Hammond B3 to be. I wouldn't necessarily find either one problematic as long as the sound reinforcement system didn't suck on toast and the SPLs weren't too high.
Scotty
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I wonder if anyone on AC doesn't or hasn't experienced listener fatigue! :scratch: :green:
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Are you thinking of fatigue as a decrease in some auditory ability over time? Does it just become uncomfortably loud after awhile, or is it something else? I'm actually more likely to acclimate to sound as long as it isn't too loud. That's why my car stereo is always louder when I start the car than it was when I shut it down.
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Are you thinking of fatigue as a decrease in some auditory ability over time? Does it just become uncomfortably loud after awhile, or is it something else?
To me, it means that one gets mentally/physically tired after a period of time listening to a radio/sound system that grates on one's nerves or audio sensibility.
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Hi all.
After a few years I have discovered that my ex-Naim ss amplifier
was irritating me, if you see what I mean,
I could not listen to music more than one hour,
there was something inside me that irritate me,
a sensation of fatigue and discomfort.
Now that I am tubes user, that went a way.
However, whrn I had my Audio Nirvana 8" full range driver
the big peak between 1KHz and 5KHz made music listening very tiriing.
But now, with my Omega 7F OBD with my Decware tube amplifier
that's all things of the past.
Solid state amplification is only for ambiance
and background music.
Guy 13
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My ears are very sensitive to brightness, so if there is any hint of brightness, I'm good for about 30 minutes. Bottom line -- if the music doesn't sound right (however you define it), why would you want to keep listening to it? So you find something else to do.
There's also a psychological element -- when you're tired, mentally drained, or don't feel well, your listening fatigue threshold may decrease significantly.
Ditto
Noise on the AC power supply causes listening fatigue too, this can be very obvious with dirty AC power but can be low-level like cheap connectors and cables if it's lower levels of noise on the AC line.
Poor vibration control may also cause fatigue, a good example is speakers spiked directly to a concrete floor... the better your vibration control the less fatigue you will have.
and Ditto.
Dave mentioned it but I want to emphasis I believe (yep, its a "belief" because I don't have scientific evidence) controlling EMI/RF is very important to reducing not only listener fatigue but physical fatigue in general.
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Female pop stars give me listening fatigue 100% of the time.
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I am very sensitive to glare, hardness and grain in upper mids / lower treble. When I hear this, I become tense. If I fear more is to come, I remain tense in anticipation of the painful experience. This is where I become fatigued. I have evolved my system to eliminate this noise on all but a few poorly recorded cd's.
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That's is big question. There are so many differing setups. And so many variables. If I was experiencing fatigue. I would start doing some analyzing/testing of my equipment.
I start with the "signal to noise ratio". That's just a fundamental, IMHO.
( Fundimental high quality "S/N Ratio": remove all the "noise" from my system when it is at idle and the volume is at max.
Then use the "highest quality signal" injected into that low noise path.
Then, the path must be tested/conditioned to make the "flattest frequency response" possible.)
Of course, that is what I would call the basics/fundamentals. From there, I would suspect something out side of my system, maybe my room size, treatments, acoustic panels, poor music recordings, etc, etc..
All that said, I think it's a very individual thing. Some recordings just seem raw/harsh to me. And no matter what I do with that recording, it just sounds fatiguing. If I listen to it in FLAC and it is uncomfortable. I delete it. It just means it isn't for me.
good luck.
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When we listen to music we "vocalize" with our vocal cord muscles. Those with trained ears tend to pseudo-vocalize more, especially if the music is perceived to be slightly out of tune. It happens unconsciously. When listening to a performer that sings or plays slightly too low the listener tries to "adjust" the pitch by straining his vocal cords, a version of silent scream "higher!"
Distortion, especially odd order, may affect us in a similar way the out of tune music does.
Eventually prolonged exposure to such music causes fatigue in the throat muscles (vocal cords) that is later perceived as a headache and takes a while of resting to go away.
I suppose it would explain why music sounds better after a drink or two - alcohol relaxes the muscles and the effects of distortion are less pronounced on our active listening apparatus.
:D
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My pet theory is that when we listen to an artificial reconstruction of something that we know the sound of, some part of the brain is busy trying to re-construct the sound to resemble the original. The greater the difference between what we are hearing and what we know to be reality, the harder the brain has to work. This causes the fatigue which accompanies any arduous mental activity.
Secondly, it is my guess that the more complex the distortion the harder the brain has to work, so that high levels of simple distortion–like even order harmonics added by tube amps–are tolerated, even enjoyed, while low levels of complex distortions are not tolerated so well. Complexity goes beyond the harmonic structure, of course, and includes relationships to signal dynamics and phase errors introduced by crossover components and speaker design, not to speak of digital and analog processing.
Well stated. This has been my contention for years.
I believe this is why MP3's, even high bitrate MP3's bother me. My mind is trying to fill in too much missing info. Especially the all too important ambient cues.
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My pet theory is that when we listen to an artificial reconstruction of something that we know the sound of, some part of the brain is busy trying to re-construct the sound to resemble the original. The greater the difference between what we are hearing and what we know to be reality, the harder the brain has to work. This causes the fatigue which accompanies any arduous mental activity.
Secondly, it is my guess that the more complex the distortion the harder the brain has to work, so that high levels of simple distortion–like even order harmonics added by tube amps–are tolerated, even enjoyed, while low levels of complex distortions are not tolerated so well. Complexity goes beyond the harmonic structure, of course, and includes relationships to signal dynamics and phase errors introduced by crossover components and speaker design, not to speak of digital and analog processing.
I think you are onto something. 8)
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If that is true (and I'm not saying that it isn't), then we should feel the same effect watching a movie or TV, as our brain is busy putting a bunch of still pictures together to make motion. No?
Wayner
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I have a major problem with AC glare in my hometown. 100% of the time, if I can switch the amp to battery power, the glare and fatigue disappears. Weekends are always the worst. But after midnight, even the AC powered amps will sound listenable. I have this problem with tube or SS amps. I get better results in the fall and spring when people are not using their furnaces or air conditioner units. I have had this problem for over 30 years in this small town.
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I'm proposing that listening fatigue is just a description of the sensation you have when something is too loud; it's nothing more than more loudness than you want.
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I'm proposing that listening fatigue is just a description of the sensation you have when something is too loud; it's nothing more than more loudness than you want.
Not here. I hear the AC glare playing my system at levels of 65-75db.
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If that is true (and I'm not saying that it isn't), then we should feel the same effect watching a movie or TV, as our brain is busy putting a bunch of still pictures together to make motion. No?
Wayner
Ever watch a three and a half hour movie? I sure get tired!
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Hyperacusis is a real phenomenon that often accompanies hearing loss and tinnitus. In this case the compression function of the audiovestibular system ain't working right.
Phonphobia is a dislike of loud sounds, and misophonia is a negative emotional response to some kind of sound (nails on a chalkboard, etc.). Listener fatigue is probably some special kind of misophonia.
If listener fatigue is real, my guess is that it must originate further up the central nervous system rather than at the middle ear, the cochlea, the auditory nerve, or the brainstem. The reason I say this is that it we can record the electrical output from these parts in response to sound, and as far as I know the responses don't decay.
This is kind of funny; I think I suffer from almost everything you mention here (except maybe phonophobia).
Having experienced listening fatigue, I don't think it's really the same as misophonia. Similar at times, perhaps, but not the same. Misophonia usually occurs for me for specific noises (people chewing, rustling of plastic packaging) and results in emotional (often visceral) reactions that I'm not always aware of at the time. For example, I'll be sitting on the couch, minding my own business (i.e., spacing out) and suddenly find myself getting irritable only to later realize it's because my girlfriend is rustling a bag of chips or something.
Listening fatigue, for me, is more related to hyperacusis or actual distortion. I don't experience it too often anymore, but it's usually centered around glaring mids, like trumpets or female vocals, and usually in a too-loud bar or similar place. It's more of a feeling of "Oh, God! Make it stop!" rather than wanting to put my fist through somebody's face, which is what misophonia is like.*
Or maybe I should say that hyperacusis can lead to listening fatigue? That's probably more accurate than to say that they're related.
I used to experience listening fatigue semi-regularly when I was younger and used cheap headphones and cheap CD players. Usually it would happen if I fell asleep while listening to music or if I had been listening for more than a couple of hours at a time. From my experience, I'm going to agree with what others have said that it has to do with distortion and my brain interpolating what I'm hearing into something that makes sense. I think of it as "mental dithering" and after a while my "processor" just can't handle any more and has to cool off.
*I would like to clarify that as a general rule I don't want to put my fist through my girlfriend's face. Though sometimes she does think it's okay to eat Airheads in bed. *rustlerustle* *glomglom* *cringe*
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Not here. I hear the AC glare playing my system at levels of 65-75db.
If the glare is audible then that's one thing, but if you get fatigued listening at those levels then they are too loud when glare is present. If the glare were gone you could listen louder without fatigue, so, under those conditions 65-75 dB is too loud. Maybe I'm equivocating on the word "loud," but I think separating the concept of loudness from dB SPL is worthwhile.
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If that is true (and I'm not saying that it isn't), then we should feel the same effect watching a movie or TV, as our brain is busy putting a bunch of still pictures together to make motion. No?
Wayner
Funny you should bring that up, because there was a little known (and I think some would like to keep it little known) study a number of years ago where viewers' reactions were noted for video in formats differing in resolution and frame rate. In terms of emotional involvement, resolution had little effect, but frame rate had a profound effect. 60fps and higher was enough to trigger emotional responses similar to the observance of the same scene in reality, almost regardless of resolution. Higher resolution seemed to produce no such effect.
Similarly, it seems to me and some other ardent recordists, sample rate is more important than bit depth or word length in digital audio storage. Tim De Paravicini has said (and, apart from having a lot of respect for him, this fits my experience) that a 44.1k sample rate is "good" to frequencies of about 3500Hz and, by implication, 88.2k is good to 7k; 176.4k to 14k. This is the way I hear it, too. I know one leading British engineer who says he would happily record at 16 bit word lengths if the sample rate was 176.4. The extra bits are useful when recording, though, but once the recording is mixed and mastered 16/176.4 would seem to be enough for very high fidelity.
The frequently raised notion that sample rates beyond 44.1k are unnecessary because we only hear to 20k (if we're lucky) are off track; the reason for high sample rates are just as much about the way this affects the sound quality of the audible part of the spectrum, whether we can measure it or not. And whether we understand it or not. I freely admit to not understanding it.
Also, there way a Japanese (I think) study where the blood flow within the brain was recorded when the subject was listening to real acoustic music, a recording of same band limited to 20kHz and the same but with replay extended to 80kHz. The 80kHz recording had an effect very similar to real music, but the one truncated at 20kHz showed very different blood flow patterns
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This is kind of funny; I think I suffer from almost everything you mention here (except maybe phonophobia).
Having experienced listening fatigue, I don't think it's really the same as misophonia. Similar at times, perhaps, but not the same. Misophonia usually occurs for me for specific noises (people chewing, rustling of plastic packaging) and results in emotional (often visceral) reactions that I'm not always aware of at the time. For example, I'll be sitting on the couch, minding my own business (i.e., spacing out) and suddenly find myself getting irritable only to later realize it's because my girlfriend is rustling a bag of chips or something.
Listening fatigue, for me, is more related to hyperacusis or actual distortion. I don't experience it too often anymore, but it's usually centered around glaring mids, like trumpets or female vocals, and usually in a too-loud bar or similar place. It's more of a feeling of "Oh, God! Make it stop!" rather than wanting to put my fist through somebody's face, which is what misophonia is like.*
Or maybe I should say that hyperacusis can lead to listening fatigue? That's probably more accurate than to say that they're related.
I used to experience listening fatigue semi-regularly when I was younger and used cheap headphones and cheap CD players. Usually it would happen if I fell asleep while listening to music or if I had been listening for more than a couple of hours at a time. From my experience, I'm going to agree with what others have said that it has to do with distortion and my brain interpolating what I'm hearing into something that makes sense. I think of it as "mental dithering" and after a while my "processor" just can't handle any more and has to cool off.
*I would like to clarify that as a general rule I don't want to put my fist through my girlfriend's face. Though sometimes she does think it's okay to eat Airheads in bed. *rustlerustle* *glomglom* *cringe*
From what I hear, and it sounds like you have first-hand experience, misophonia can be a real drag. ugh.
I think of hyperacusis as an abnormally low pain threshold for sound. So, the sound only has to be there for a moment or two; if a sound is going to be painful it's going to be painful almost immediately. The treatment for hyperacusis and tinnitus, by the way, generally should NOT involve earplugs. Too much quiet has a good chance of making it worse.
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I wonder if anyone on AC doesn't or hasn't experienced listener fatigue! :scratch: :green:
I quite often have it, even with my hp HE400(its the PC sound board I suppose).
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I'm thinking of two different definitions for listening fatigue.
1) unwanted loudness after some time even though the level is unchanged. This would be the exact opposite of adaptation (i.e. refractoriness). But, I can't think of a physiologic reason for that to happen, and I was the only one who suggested that's what we could mean by fatigue (because sometimes I argue with myself). :)
2) feeling mentally worn out from actively paying attention, or actively ignoring. So, the fatigue goes away when you tune out even as the music plays on. It's exactly the feeling you get when you want to hear what somebody has to say, but they are just too hard to understand because of a crappy clogged-up cell phone mic in the wind.
So, yeah, now I think definition 1 that I invented is a myth. Definition 2 is real, but it's just mental fatigue.
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From what I hear, and it sounds like you have first-hand experience, misophonia can be a real drag. ugh.
I think of hyperacusis as an abnormally low pain threshold for sound. So, the sound only has to be there for a moment or two; if a sound is going to be painful it's going to be painful almost immediately. The treatment for hyperacusis and tinnitus, by the way, generally should NOT involve earplugs. Too much quiet has a good chance of making it worse.
Misophonia is mostly only a drag when I'm tired or irritable or stressed. Otherwise I can mostly actively tune it out. Even so, I don't really think of it as a drag so much as some people's chewing just sounds extra gross to me. :dunno: I'm sure other people suffer from it more acutely than I do. It's kind of an interesting phenomenon and I'd like to know more about it as I've just recently learned about it. From my own experience, I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually related to some sort of emotional recall. I can distinctly remember early incidences of each of my trigger noises.
I should admit that I'd never heard of hyperacusis until last night, but reading a little about it sounds like what I've experienced in the past (just today, actually). If it's what I've experienced it is a low pain threshold for certain (loud) noises, but for some reason they seem to cause resonances and distortion that nobody else hears. I'd explain it like this: imagine the pitch of, say, an ambulance siren at a high volume; normally it starts out being clear, then as it gets louder it becomes slightly uncomfortable and distorted, and then can suddenly sound like a speaker severely clipping, which can be pretty painful.
I used to have a Dayton DTA-100a and the way it would distort when playing Miles Davis was very similar sounding.
Also, I'd argue that listening fatigue is probably mostly just fatigue, as somebody else already suggested. Will your ears get fatigued after listening to something at a high volume? Sure. Will your brain and ears want to give up after listening to something really intensely for hours on end? Most likely. Will your ears feel fatigued when you're otherwise feeling wiped? Makes sense.
I think my point is that there are probably many factors that should be taken into consideration when trying to study listening fatigue. Rather than trying to answer "what is the one reason for listening fatigue?" instead take a more holistic approach, taking into consideration sound reproduction, environment and room acoustics, as well as the listener and all of his or her moods and conditions. Sounds daunting, but I'd bet it'd give a better representation of what's actually happening.
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Good morning all.
Thank you for all your responses so far. I have been under a rock (in front of spreadsheets) for the last couple of days so have not had my eye on this. I promise to read every bit of it and come back to make comment. It is indeed a fascinating area.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Scotty,
I have walked out of concerts because the musicians and or the music sucked. I would say I get fatigue from bad live music. Actually, I don't get to the point of fatigue. I just leave. But I am going to infer that there is fatigue from live music because I would have had them if I stayed.
Yes, thank you, a reasonable point. My current thinking is non-linearity of some kind is the key. Though admittedly not all non linear reproductions will cause this. Warm distorted guitar sounds are a good example.
I find non-amplified(electronically) live irritating only when it's a bit off key or if the local acoustics are poor. Usually echoes or harsh reflections of some sort.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Similarly, it seems to me and some other ardent recordists, sample rate is more important than bit depth or word length in digital audio storage. Tim De Paravicini has said (and, apart from having a lot of respect for him, this fits my experience) that a 44.1k sample rate is "good" to frequencies of about 3500Hz and, by implication, 88.2k is good to 7k; 176.4k to 14k. This is the way I hear it, too. I know one leading British engineer who says he would happily record at 16 bit word lengths if the sample rate was 176.4. The extra bits are useful when recording, though, but once the recording is mixed and mastered 16/176.4 would seem to be enough for very high fidelity.
The frequently raised notion that sample rates beyond 44.1k are unnecessary because we only hear to 20k (if we're lucky) are off track; the reason for high sample rates are just as much about the way this affects the sound quality of the audible part of the spectrum, whether we can measure it or not. And whether we understand it or not. I freely admit to not understanding it.
Interesting thought. Though I am more inclined to think that this is a red herring. Though you are absolutely right that the Nyquist rate as it is called, by sampling 2 x the bandwidth (0 to 20kHz in this case) encapsulates all the data is in itself too simplistic and higher rates and of course don't forget oversampling will give better results on an ideal system, I doubt it is the obvious cause of any distortion. I have heard many a CD player out perform an SACD and DVDA player of similar high end credentials.
A simple example of my own experience: take a perfectly natural sounding system which I can listen to for hours without trouble at lower volumes shall we say then change the interconnect cable. Suddenly, it sounds so much clearer for 5 minutes, maybe even 10 or 15 minutes. Then by the time 29 minutes has been reached, my ears are hurting and I really need to switch off. This is an experience I had recently and it is purely in the analogue domain.
Yes it was probably a slightly harder sound, but not obviously so. Yes it was probably a slightly brighter sound, but again not obviously so. So what is being subtly tickled here enough to annoy and cause slight pain?
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Hi all.
After a few years I have discovered that my ex-Naim ss amplifier
was irritating me, if you see what I mean,
I could not listen to music more than one hour,
there was something inside me that irritate me,
a sensation of fatigue and discomfort.
Now that I am tubes user, that went a way.
However, whrn I had my Audio Nirvana 8" full range driver
the big peak between 1KHz and 5KHz made music listening very tiriing.
But now, with my Omega 7F OBD with my Decware tube amplifier
that's all things of the past.
Solid state amplification is only for ambiance
and background music.
Guy 13
Well may be it is that simple. There are peaks at certain frequencies that simply don't play well with our ears. But would it suggest that they only need to be subtle ones to cause annoyance? It would also suggest that poor quality systems can sound OK over long listening periods if these frequencies are simply kept under control?
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Dave mentioned it but I want to emphasis I believe (yep, its a "belief" because I don't have scientific evidence) controlling EMI/RF is very important to reducing not only listener fatigue but physical fatigue in general.
Well if there is enough belief out there it must be real we should be able to get scientific evidence of it. Excepting Father Christmas of course ;-)
But seriously, there is clearly something and would be interesting to know if any 'experts' have been onto it.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk
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Misophonia is mostly only a drag when I'm tired or irritable or stressed. Otherwise I can mostly actively tune it out. Even so, I don't really think of it as a drag so much as some people's chewing just sounds extra gross to me. :dunno: I'm sure other people suffer from it more acutely than I do. It's kind of an interesting phenomenon and I'd like to know more about it as I've just recently learned about it. From my own experience, I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually related to some sort of emotional recall. I can distinctly remember early incidences of each of my trigger noises.
I should admit that I'd never heard of hyperacusis until last night, but reading a little about it sounds like what I've experienced in the past (just today, actually). If it's what I've experienced it is a low pain threshold for certain (loud) noises, but for some reason they seem to cause resonances and distortion that nobody else hears. I'd explain it like this: imagine the pitch of, say, an ambulance siren at a high volume; normally it starts out being clear, then as it gets louder it becomes slightly uncomfortable and distorted, and then can suddenly sound like a speaker severely clipping, which can be pretty painful.
I used to have a Dayton DTA-100a and the way it would distort when playing Miles Davis was very similar sounding.
Also, I'd argue that listening fatigue is probably mostly just fatigue, as somebody else already suggested. Will your ears get fatigued after listening to something at a high volume? Sure. Will your brain and ears want to give up after listening to something really intensely for hours on end? Most likely. Will your ears feel fatigued when you're otherwise feeling wiped? Makes sense.
I think my point is that there are probably many factors that should be taken into consideration when trying to study listening fatigue. Rather than trying to answer "what is the one reason for listening fatigue?" instead take a more holistic approach, taking into consideration sound reproduction, environment and room acoustics, as well as the listener and all of his or her moods and conditions. Sounds daunting, but I'd bet it'd give a better representation of what's actually happening.
Maybe there is a spectrum of misophonia going from mildly irritating or fatiguing to intense hatred. That would make sense. Again, I'm back to the idea that fatigue is some sort of misophonia instead of some strange kind of signal-induced hyperacusis.
Hyperacusis is thought to be caused by the outer hair cells of the cochlea failing to compress the incoming sound normally. Although, it can be more central (nerve and brain).
Ears will definitely distort at very high volume levels. There is also a muscle reflex in the middle ear that is triggered by loud noise. Normally, the stapedius and the tensor tympani muscles will contract and stiffen up your middle ear system slightly. It's very rare but possible to be born without that reflex, and for many people it's difficult to trigger at 4 KHz and above. The acoustic reflex works like a slow-acting mechanical compressor.
If I get a chance, I can ask my scientist friend if listening fatigue might literally be muscle fatigue from the middle-ear reflex being on constantly. I hadn't thought of that until just now.
I think you're right about studying listening fatigue. The more variables at work the harder it is to isolate them, and the more subjective something is the harder it is to put meaningful numbers on it.
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I think you have to define what distortion is. In my view, it's anything reproduced that is not as the original. So if the speed is too fast or too slow, that is distortion. If the volume you are listening to the recorded music is not the same volume as the original music was played (and then recorded), its distortion. If the spectrum of musical reproduction is not the same as the original recording event, its distortion. Then (but not finally) the grinding brutality on our ears by something gone wrong (electrically or mechanically) during reproduction is distortion.
So I ask myself, can we have distortion during a live event in which none of the instruments use pre-recorded (samples) as in a synthesizer? But what if a guitar string buzzes on a fret, is that not distortion? Or is that the character of the note. And if we have a dirty Hammond B3 organ playing into a Leslie speaker, is that not distortion?
Could I become fatigued listening to a live event with all natural type of instruments? And then, what happens if I do not like the music? Will I get fatigued really quick because of internal conflict (its music, and I like music, but not this kind.....)
Wayner
Hi thanks. I think you make some excellent observations here. THD as presented certainly does not paint the whole picture with regards to non linearity and distortion.
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk