Bryston Loudspeakers

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James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #320 on: 9 Mar 2012, 09:22 pm »
My take on this is that I understand all companies, including Bryston are in the business of making money on their products - so adding a profit margin is necessary.

There come a balance point of volume sales with a smaller profit vs. lower sales with a higher profit.

Aiming for the later requires catering to desires of those seeking something exclusive.  Though I don't think Bryston is a company which designs / sells products on exclusivity, it comes with the territory as prices get higher and higher.

I totally recognize that there is effort, money and resources as well as recovery of R&D that comes into play here.

I would like to see and would hope that Bryston would come to the party with a net new product - priced agressively rather than competitively.   And, priced in a manner that doesn't push for exclusivity.

To name another manufacturer - though build is in a foreign country and that needs to be considered in the price as well - Golden Ear has taken an aggressive stance with the pricing of it's product - comparing what you get in that speaker along with the raving reviews - the product could demand a much higher price but that's not what Sandy is after.

In summation, take the cost of the product, factor in recovery of R&D over a reasonable timeframe, and price with a smaller profit margin the first year.  Get some sales and demand going and then consider raising the price in the following year.

This speaker is a Bryston product but it's based on Axiom technologies and engineering and manufacturing techniques, as I understand it.  So you start with the Axiom M80 v3 (a very aggressively priced product) $1500, add an additional driver, some improvements to the drivers and throw in an active design.  Take the $1500 add in $500 for the additional driver, gives you $2000, triple that cost for the active design (excluding amplification) and what do you get - roughly $6000.  Pad it with $1000 for R&D and other ancillary costs and you get to $7000.

If $7000 results in a profit - then why not sell it at that price.  You would draw new customers to Bryston who will then be interested in buying Bryston amps.  For the first year - well you could even run with no-profit and just work off the profits related to additional sales of amplfiers that people will naturally be drawn to as they were used in the development of the speakers.

My take.

Yes good points and one of the reasons I am thinking this will really turn out to just be a reference speaker for me to evaluate our gear on rather than a commercial product. :thumb:

James

sfraser

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #321 on: 10 Mar 2012, 01:25 pm »
Don't forget the cost of support, sparing and warranty. A big part of Bryston's appeal is your warranty and customer service.

It will be hard to escape comparisons with the M80's I expect. ( and perhaps axiom's new project speakers?). Being that the M80  seems to be an excellent speaker, and is sold with factory direct pricing,  and is a passive design, a M80 Model T comparison has all the ear marks of a great discussion!

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #322 on: 10 Mar 2012, 01:44 pm »
Don't forget the cost of support, sparing and warranty. A big part of Bryston's appeal is your warranty and customer service.

It will be hard to escape comparisons with the M80's I expect. ( and perhaps axiom's new project speakers?). Being that the M80  seems to be an excellent speaker, and is sold with factory direct pricing,  and is a passive design, a M80 Model T comparison has all the ear marks of a great discussion!

Hi,

I think you are probably right.... but the Model T is way beyond the performance level of the M80 - assuming we are talking about the performance that most serious audiophiles would wish for.  I think it may come down to whether an Active speaker with all the costs involved warrants the difference.  There are some great passive speakers out there.

As a listening tool though it certainly meets the criteria for me.

james

sfraser

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #323 on: 10 Mar 2012, 02:34 pm »
Hi,

I think you are probably right.... but the Model T is way beyond the performance level of the M80 - assuming we are talking about the performance that most serious audiophiles would wish for.  I think it may come down to whether an Active speaker with all the costs involved warrants the difference.  There are some great passive speakers out there.

As a listening tool though it certainly meets the criteria for me.

james

James, do you have enough listening time yet to give us a detailed  report?

I really kicking myself for not being able to make it to the show in Montreal and see/hear them 1st hand (a Rum and Whatever on a beach in Jamaica is not a bad alternative I guess).  The Model T  attributes sound like they would be right up my alley!

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #324 on: 10 Mar 2012, 02:52 pm »
James, do you have enough listening time yet to give us a detailed  report?

I really kicking myself for not being able to make it to the show in Montreal and see/hear them 1st hand (a Rum and Whatever on a beach in Jamaica is not a bad alternative I guess).  The Model T  attributes sound like they would be right up my alley!

Hi

No sadly I have only had time to listened to the prototypes up to this point. We are making some changes and I hope the final version will be ready for Montreal but can not guarantee it.   :duh: 

We are changing the voice coil design in the woofers and the mass of the woofer driver as well (I'm a stickler for transient response).  After that I should be able to report back a better assessment of the speakers overall performance in more detail for you.

James

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #325 on: 14 Mar 2012, 04:38 pm »
Hi

No sadly I have only had time to listened to the prototypes up to this point. We are making some changes and I hope the final version will be ready for Montreal but can not guarantee it.   :duh: 

We are changing the voice coil design in the woofers and the mass of the woofer driver as well (I'm a stickler for transient response).  After that I should be able to report back a better assessment of the speakers overall performance in more detail for you.

James

Does it look like you will be unveiling a Bryston Model T at the Son & Image show next week?  If so, it would be interesting to know the setup it will be plugged into.

In terms of amplifier demands.  Given these will be used with an active crossover and DSP, what nominal impendence load will connected amplifiers be faced with?  Will the Model T be easy to drive - say with three 2B's, going to LF, MF, HF or would 7B's on LF, 3B on MF and 2B on HF be the minimum?  Have you experimented with different amplifier arrangements, yet?

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #326 on: 14 Mar 2012, 06:02 pm »
Does it look like you will be unveiling a Bryston Model T at the Son & Image show next week?  If so, it would be interesting to know the setup it will be plugged into.

In terms of amplifier demands.  Given these will be used with an active crossover and DSP, what nominal impendence load will connected amplifiers be faced with?  Will the Model T be easy to drive - say with three 2B's, going to LF, MF, HF or would 7B's on LF, 3B on MF and 2B on HF be the minimum?  Have you experimented with different amplifier arrangements, yet?

Hi Soundgame

I will have the prototypes there but it will probably be a static display as the newer woofers have not showed up yet. 

As for drive I would say minimum would be a 3-channel 9B per side and option would be a 6B per side - all out if one has a huge room and listens loudly I would say a 7B on the bass drivers and a 4B on the mid/tweets.

james

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #327 on: 14 Mar 2012, 06:09 pm »
Hi Soundgame

I will have the prototypes there but it will probably be a static display as the newer woofers have not showed up yet. 

As for drive I would say minimum would be a 3-channel 9B per side and option would be a 6B per side - all out if one has a huge room and listens loudly I would say a 7B on the bass drivers and a 4B on the mid/tweets.

james

Okay James - thanks for the response.  Good to get a little insight into what those babies will take.  :thumb:

I can't make the Montreal show but will be at TAVES in Toronto, in late September.  Hopefully, you might display a working final model there that I can hear or feel for that matter.  Cheers.

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #328 on: 21 Mar 2012, 11:49 am »
Just read the press release on the new Axiom speaker, which appears to be an active DSP crossover design with both front and rear facing drivers (additional tweeters + mids in the rear).  It needs four matched amplifiers, with the DSP box plugging in between the pre-amplifier and amplifiers.  More noteworthy is the price, at $3760 (including delivery in Canada and U.S.) - Wow! 

My understanding is that this speaker will be showing with Bryston amplification at the Montreal Son & Image Show this week. 

Apart from the rear facing drivers - how much different is this design than the Model T and what does the Model T aspire to achieve that this speaker may not quite attain?

http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=723&catid=14&Itemid=43
« Last Edit: 21 Mar 2012, 03:49 pm by SoundGame »

larevoj

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #329 on: 31 Mar 2012, 02:36 pm »
It looks very similar too...  :?



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James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #330 on: 31 Mar 2012, 02:45 pm »
Hi folks

No the Model T is a lot different than Axioms new speaker. I admire where they are doing though as they are pushing the boundaries of optimzing power response into a normal listening room.

The Model T is different in a number of ways:

1. Acoustic suspension not ported
2. 8 inch woofers not 6.5
3. No rear drivers
4. No passive crossovers

James
« Last Edit: 1 Apr 2012, 12:41 pm by James Tanner »

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #331 on: 31 Mar 2012, 05:07 pm »
Thanks for sharing these differences james.  I thought the new Axiom Omni was an active crossover DSp design with a separate box active crossover?  Why would it have passive crossover parts?

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #332 on: 31 Mar 2012, 07:32 pm »
Thanks for sharing these differences james.  I thought the new Axiom Omni was an active crossover DSp design with a separate box active crossover?  Why would it have passive crossover parts?

The DSP just divides what frequencies, roll offs  and signal amplitudes are sent to the rear drivers and the front drivers. The Internal crossovers on the front and rear are passive.

james.
« Last Edit: 1 Apr 2012, 12:42 pm by James Tanner »

larevoj

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #333 on: 1 Apr 2012, 05:04 pm »
Hi James, all combined four points below would make a huge diff particular point 1 and 4.  :thumb:

On rear drivers... wouldn't it help throw a bigger soundstage/image?

Hi folks

No the Model T is a lot different than Axioms new speaker. I admire where they are doing though as they are pushing the boundaries of optimzing power response into a normal listening room.

The Model T is different in a number of ways:

1. Acoustic suspension not ported
2. 8 inch woofers not 6.5
3. No rear drivers
4. No passive crossovers

James

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #334 on: 2 Apr 2012, 02:27 pm »
Hi James, all combined four points below would make a huge diff particular point 1 and 4.  :thumb:

On rear drivers... wouldn't it help throw a bigger soundstage/image?

Hi,

You bring up an interesting point as for many years designers have tried to replicate a 'virtual' point source with the many speaker types out there.  The concept was if you could produce a radiation field in all directions equally you would have a radiation patter much like what occurs when a real instrument is played in real space.

The problem is that omni-directional speakers do have issues with interference of the sound waves in most typical listening rooms due to the many early reflections and standing wave problems that occur based on all the surfaces near the speaker.  The dipole speaker was an example of a speaker which tried to provide a wide polar response but generally getting a very specific image was tough due to the rear wave reflections causing comb-filtering effects.  Then speakers that were Bi-polar rather then di-polar appeared but again solid images at the correct size proved problematic.

So at this point Axiom is attempting to build a loudspeaker that can specifically control the rear wave conditions independently from the front radiation pattern by using a DSP.  It will be interesting to try them in my listening room against the Model T's and see what I think.

james

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #335 on: 2 Apr 2012, 02:36 pm »
It looks very similar too...  :?



James - looking close at the drivers in these images - apart from the size of the LF drivers, which you mentioned were 8" vs. 6.5" in the Axiom, I do see that the voicecoils in both the MF and LF drivers appear to be larger in diameter in the Model T vs the standard Axiom drivers.  Would you know and be able to explain what a larger diameter voicecoil provides vs. a smaller one?  I would guess the larger diameter would have also have a longer wire length in the coil, thus increasing the potential power capacity but am not sure.

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #336 on: 2 Apr 2012, 02:41 pm »
Where can you see the vc's?

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #337 on: 2 Apr 2012, 02:44 pm »
Where can you see the vc's?

I'm looking at the diameter of the dust caps actually on the MF and LF drivers in the pics above with the Model T vs the new Axiom Omni.  Recognizing that the Model T has larger diameter LF cones - the space around the dust caps on the Model T are clearly LESS for both MF and LF; therefore, I'm making an assumption that this implies a larger diameter voicecoil, since dust caps will usually sit on top of that central opening in the voicecoil.  Make sense. :?:

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #338 on: 2 Apr 2012, 02:59 pm »
James - looking close at the drivers in these images - apart from the size of the LF drivers, which you mentioned were 8" vs. 6.5" in the Axiom, I do see that the voicecoils in both the MF and LF drivers appear to be larger in diameter in the Model T vs the standard Axiom drivers.  Would you know and be able to explain what a larger diameter voicecoil provides vs. a smaller one?  I would guess the larger diameter would have also have a longer wire length in the coil, thus increasing the potential power capacity but am not sure.

You can not really tell from the dust cap the type of coil used. 

For instance one of the concerns I had with the earlier version of the Model T was I did not feel the bass response had the transient speed I felt it should have. At the time we were using the 8 inch woofer cones from the Axiom subs. So we redesigned the voice coils and also reduced the mass of the cone by 1/2 and all seems better now. 

This Model T really is starting to look like a custom speaker in many ways and one of the advantages of working with Axiom is they manufacture their own drivers so off the shelf restrictions are not a problem.

james

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #339 on: 2 Apr 2012, 03:18 pm »
You can not really tell from the dust cap the type of coil used. 

For instance one of the concerns I had with the earlier version of the Model T was I did not feel the bass response had the transient speed I felt it should have. At the time we were using the 8 inch woofer cones from the Axiom subs. So we redesigned the voice coils and also reduced the mass of the cone by 1/2 and all seems better now. 

This Model T really is starting to look like a custom speaker in many ways and one of the advantages of working with Axiom is they manufacture their own drivers so off the shelf restrictions are not a problem.

james

Okay James - so you now have a working model you're testing with the lighter cones (modified sub-woofer drivers)?  Do you think you've got what you were looking for or are there still some further tweaks you're planning next?  How close are you to your vision for this speaker?

The big question is - what is it going to take to put something like this in production? 

Are the pics on this thread and at the recent Son&Image show the latest version - with the 1/2 mass drivers?