New(ish) ST owner: happy!

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 3706 times.

matt_garman

New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« on: 1 Jun 2011, 08:08 pm »
A few months ago, I started a thread here, SongTower performance in huge room + corner placement?.

I also started a similar thread on AVSForum, Floorstanders for big room, corner placement, 2.1 music, $2k budget.

The gist of those threads is: I was looking for speakers to replace my Energy RC-30s in an unusually large room (and corner placement to boot).

I posted the following follow-up on AVSForum.  I thought the AudioCircle audience might be interested as well:


I finally have a conclusion to my search.  I went with front-ported Salk Songtowers in satin black finish.  In short: I love 'em!

Here's the long version:

I broke the "absolute law" for speaker buying---I relied on the Internet to decide what I wanted rather than personal auditions.  For me, this just wasn't possible: I work 60 hours a week and have a three-month old baby.  Free time is in extremely short supply.  But I'm in front of a computer all day for work, so I can spend some time reading online reviews and forums.

I probably could have made time to audition speakers in B&M stores, but I'm not convinced that alone is adequate: the room and placement of speakers have an enormous impact on their sound.  So listening to them in a store really only gives you an idea of their character---kind of like a first date.  The way I look at it, a true speaker search involves a lot more courting: an in-home audition, either from an ID company with a liberal return policy or on loan/rented from a B&M store.  But that requires a lot of time that I just don't have (not to mention, I think it would have been a test of my wife's patience).

So to continue my dating-and-marriage metaphor, I guess I went with the mail order bride.  :)  I decided that if I'm not going to do a "proper" speaker search, I'm just going to buy from an ID company that offers a speaker with acceptable specs and great reviews.

I took a heuristic approach to speaker shopping.

Ultimately, I settled on the following requirements, roughly in order of importance:
  • Must be sold internet-direct, price range $1k to $2k
  • Must be taller than the Energy RC-30s (at least 40" tall), with a small enough footprint to fit in their somewhat cramped space (see schematic posted earlier in this thread)
  • Must have a lot of good reviews and positive forum feedback
  • Preferably a matte-black finish; absolutely no woodgrains or super-shiny "piano" black
  • Front ported
Given that, my short list was:
  • Salk Songtower
  • Swan Diva 6.1
  • Axiom M80

The Axioms were the first to be eliminated.  At least a couple times I almost bought the "B" stock at a reduced price.  Axiom appears to have a fairly easy return policy, and reasonable return shipping rates as well.  Ultimately, three things turned me off. (1) Though cheaper than the Songtowers, their stock configuration has a vinyl finish, rather than real wood.  That's not a deal-breaker, but if you opt for the real wood laminate finish, the price jumps up to the ST range.  Now, I'm fully aware that the Internet isn't the best tool for judging speakers, however, it clearly favors the Songtowers.  It's virtually impossible to find a negative ST review, but there are a few pockets of negative Axiom M80 reports.  (2) One thing I looked at in my research was the "density" of speakers: I divided the weight of the speaker by the product of its dimensions.  I realize this is a crude approximation at best.  But I had a spreadsheet of about 20 floorstanding speakers in my price range, and the M80s had the lowest density of them all.  In other words, for their size, the M80s are quite light.  To me, this hints at questionable build quality.  I intend to keep these speakers for a long time---will they survive a few moves?  (3) Lastly, they are not strictly front-ported.  My awkward room layout forces me to put one speaker uncomfortably close to a wall, and I feel that, generally, a front-ported speaker will be more forgiving in this placement.

Next to go were the Swans.  On paper, I liked everything about them except the finish.  The real wood finish simply would not match at all in our living room.  I showed my wife a picture, and without any hesitation she said "no".  That left the vinyl "faux black cherry" finish.  I looked at every picture I could find of these speakers in this finish, and still couldn't get a good idea of how they would actually look.  In most pictures, they looked so dark that they were practically black, which is what I wanted.  But the red did shine through in a few pictures, and I was kind of leery about that.  Still, they seemed like a good value: they've been in production for years, I found little or no negative feedback, and other than the red finish, I like the way they look.  So I said to myself, is it worth a two-fold increase in price to have a perfect finish?  OZ Home Theater also has a decent return policy, so if I got them and they were just too red, I could always send them back.  I also felt that the Swans had a much better "bang-for-buck" factor because they are made in China.  I'm sure this will be a controversial statement, but it's fact that American labor is much more expensive than Chinese labor.  As a consumer in the USA, I've perhaps become spoiled by the "Wal-Mart factor"---the ability to buy foreign-made products at a much lower cost than domestically-made products.  Unfortunately, this usually comes with a "you-get-what-you-pay-for" caveat, but all the online Swan commentary suggested that they are very well built, high-quality speakers.

I actually placed an order for the Swan Diva 6.1 at the beginning of March with OZ Home Theater.  But they immediately canceled my order, saying they were back ordered on them until the end of the month.  I took that as a sign from the "Speaker Divine", and after exchanging a few emails with Jim Salk, I ordered my front-ported satin black Songtowers.

I had one big hesitation with the Songtowers: would they be "loud" enough?  I put "loud" in quotes, because it wasn't really more volume that I was looking for; I wanted more sound at the same volume.  As I said in my initial post, the Energies don't sound bad, they just sound "small"; turning up the volume doesn't fix the problem.  And if you look at just the specs, the RC-30s and the STs have a very similar driver configuration: two smallish woofers and a tweeter.  Whereas the M80 has six total drivers, and the Swan 6.1 has much bigger drivers.  I knew height had something to do with it: the short Energies sounded much better when we were sitting on the floor (as opposed to sitting in our furniture or standing).  But did I really want to drop $2k just to get taller speakers?

In most of the Salk testimonials I read, people talked about how patient and helpful Jim Salk is before you even send a single dime his way.  My experience was absolutely consistent with the positive reports from everyone else.  Jim calmed my concerns about the Songtowers having enough "guts" to fill my massive room with music, so I placed the order.

If nothing else, I figured at least I was helping out the US economy.  ;)

A few weeks later, I had the speakers up and running.  I've had them for a couple weeks now, but unfortunately, due to the same time constraints I mentioned before, I haven't had a chance to really sit down for a long session of critical listening.  Actually, a long session of "critical listening" is not what I want to do---I want to sit down for a long session of music enjoyment.  I listened to the speakers for a couple hours the first night I had them, and for semi-distracted 20--60 minute intervals here and there, and I like everything about them!

What really surprised me was that my wife immediately noticed an improvement.  My wife has good ears, but isn't nearly as picky as me: as long as it doesn't sound bad, she can enjoy her music.  She doesn't get concerned about the minute details.  But about half-way through the first song, I hadn't said a word, and she says, "Wow, those really do fill the room.  They sound great."  She said exactly what I was thinking!

As I said before, I mainly wanted a "bigger" sound; I got that and then some.  It's hard to describe: we're not listening louder, but the music is so much more present.  With the Energies, I could turn them up more and more, and they would definitely get louder, but they never "filled the room".  But with the Songtowers, we don't even have to turn them up to get a lot of sound.  I suppose the term soundstage describes what I am experiencing; if so, then the Songtowers' soundstage is much bigger than the Energy RC-30s' (at least in our overly large room, placed sub-optimally).

Not to mention, the sound quality is just amazing.  These are the highest-end speakers I've ever heard by a big margin, but they are without a doubt the best-sounding speakers I've ever heard by the same margin.  As I said before, I haven't had a chance to sit down and take detailed notes on their sound.  But the immediate "wow" attributes are soundstage, as I already mentioned (it's huge), and the simple fact that all instruments just sound better, more realistic, more life-like.

The finish is also wonderful.  My wife hardly believes me that these were hand-made in the USA.  It seems that hand-crafted, domestically-produced goods are so rare these days.  As you can tell from the fact that I was considering vinyl-finished speakers, the appearance of the speaker wasn't a high priority for me---before I received the Songtowers, I actually felt like I was wasting money on the finish.  But, now that I have them set up in our living room, I definitely don't feel that way, and think I actually would have been unhappy with a lesser finish.

The signal chain leading up to the Songtowers is as follows: FLAC-encoded CD rips transported via optical SPDIF to a Harman/Kardon HK-3490 acting as a DAC and preamp.  From there, amplification is provided by a QSC RMX2450.

One thing really surprised me: the RC-30s are rated at 92 dB sensitivity at 8 ohms, and the STs are 88 dB at 4 ohms.  Due to their lower sensitivity, I expected to have to turn the volume dial up farther on the HK-3490.  In fact, I find it generally at a lower setting compared to with the Energies!  I suppose the STs are actually pulling more current due to their lower impedance, so maybe that makes up for it?  Either that, or the STs' sensitivity is very conservatively rated and/or the RC-30s' sensitivity is overstated.

Overall, I'm thrilled with the STs.  The only downside so far is being unable to find sufficient time to really enjoy them for a long period without any distractions.  I was hoping to find some time this weekend, but our three month old just came down with a cold.

I'll also try to find the time to post some pictures.

Thanks to all who provided their feedback and helped with my "heuristic" journey to find the perfect speaker.


adydula

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1995
Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #1 on: 1 Jun 2011, 08:21 pm »
matt,

Let me congratulate you on your SongTowers, I have had mine for 2 years, bought sight unseen and unheard!

Never once have I thought this was a bad decision.

The SongTowers are a very, very special design, made by very special people and in the good ole USA!

You will have many hours of listening joy!

Welcome to the Salk Family and look forward to some pix.

I have a set of dome tweeters in Black Satin as well.

All the best

Alex

 :D :D :D

matt_garman

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #2 on: 1 Jun 2011, 08:31 pm »
I wrote that long-winded response two or three weeks ago.  Since then, I have found a few moments here and there where I could sit and enjoy the speakers.

I really don't have much to add, other than to say all the initial observations I made are still true.  I really don't believe it was just the "new" factor causing my excitement; they are still the best-sounding speakers I've ever heard.

These speakers definitely fill the room.  Perhaps we just listen at modest volumes, but my worries about "loudness" were unfounded.  I had a few hours this weekend where the wife and baby were out, and I got to turn it up a bit more than usual.  Now I see why people like to do loud with good quality speakers---it's kind of like a drug, I suppose, they sound so good, and when you turn them up, you get more of that goodness.

FWIW, I just replaced the HK3490 with an Emotiva XDA-1.  The sound quality seems to be a little better, although I didn't spend any time doing an A-B comparison.  My main goal was just to have a device that was smaller and used less power (and put out less heat).  So the signal chain is now: FLAC-encoded CD rips / optical TOSlink / Emotiva XDA-1 / monoprice XLR cables / QSC RMX2450 / monoprice 12 gauge speaker wire / Salk Songtowers.

For now, I've disabled my old Paradigm PDR-10 sub.  It was useful with the Energies, but I've found that the Songtowers have enough bass that my old wimpy sub doesn't add anything.  I'm contemplating someday adding a Rhythmik.

The short version is, with the Songtowers, I got exactly the speakers I wanted.  When I first heard them, I noticed an immediate and obvious improvement over the Energies.  But the best part of that experience was my wife remarking how much better they were.  I was worried that she would dismiss them as no different.  But she was pleasantly surprised.  That was basically validation for me that I wasn't just hearing what I wanted to hear.  I'm sure most people can relate, whenever you get a new toy, it's hard to be objective, because you really want it to be better.  And for that reason, I think my wife was truly objective, possibly even cynical, because she said many times (prior to their delivery) that she didn't see how they could sound any better than what we had.

Anyway, here are some quick pictures of my Songtowers.  The last few pics are of the area behind the media console, with the sub, power amp, and media PC.

Thanks!
Matt

Mudslide

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #3 on: 1 Jun 2011, 10:58 pm »
Thanks for your informative and delightful posts, Matt. 

But for now, I must warn others that the website you link to for pictures is sealed off by Symantec as malicious (raw-sewage.net).   :?

Norton has them listed with 136 different computer threats. No one should go to that site.  Sorry.

matt_garman

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #4 on: 1 Jun 2011, 11:12 pm »
Thanks for your informative and delightful posts, Matt. 

But for now, I must warn others that the website you link to for pictures is sealed off by Symantec as malicious (raw-sewage.net).   :?

Norton has them listed with 136 different computer threats. No one should go to that site.  Sorry.

That's actually my personal website.  I can promise you it's not intentionally malicious!  It was compromised a long time ago, but I believe that has since been resolved.

Would you mind giving me some more info about which Norton program you're using, and what version?  I want to investigate this further and fix it!

Thank you,
Matt

Mudslide

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #5 on: 1 Jun 2011, 11:37 pm »
I am using Norton Internet Security, 2011.  The site appears to still be compromised.  As I said, Norton listed 136 malicious viruses attached to your website.  Anyone going there would do so at their own risk.  Again, sorry.  I went there to view your photos and Norton sealed it off.  And if one runs a google search under Symantec, it warns users that it is indeed an infected site.

I'm not suggesting you intentionally are doing anything.  Just alerting users.  Perhaps your domain name attracts the wrong crowd.

srb

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #6 on: 1 Jun 2011, 11:52 pm »
On the other hand, McAfee SiteAdvisor gives it a clean bill of health.
 
Steve
 

adydula

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1995
Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #7 on: 2 Jun 2011, 12:38 am »
matt,

I just ran the AVG webscan:

http://www.avgthreatlabs.com/sitereports/domain/raw-sewage.net

Your site comes up clean.

Thanks for sharing the pictures!

All the best

Alex

Kinger

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #8 on: 2 Jun 2011, 12:40 am »
Nothing popped up on my PC using Microsoft Security Essentials.........not that it's the be all end all security program.  None are.

Mudslide

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #9 on: 2 Jun 2011, 01:05 am »
It could be that Norton over time sums up virus hits at websites...and then rates the sites.  Dunno.    :?

I'm glad to hear that everyone is coming up green.  Good job of cleaning it up, Matt.  I'm sorry if I caused concern.

Anyone else with Norton Internet Security that can google the site?

coke

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #10 on: 2 Jun 2011, 01:09 am »
Try throwing a blanket over your tv and see if you hear a difference  :thumb:

Mudslide

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #11 on: 2 Jun 2011, 01:14 am »
I can't get a screen shot or the actual threat items.  But here is a copy of the general report, Matt.

Norton Rating
WARNING Site Owner? Click here
 raw-sewage.net

Summary
•Computer Threats:  136
•Identity Threats:  0
•Annoyance factors:   0 
   
Total threats on this site:  136
     
•Community Reviews:   0 
 
 Facebook  Twitter  Google buzz  Email

The Norton rating is a result of Symantec's automated analysis system. Learn more.
The opinions of our users are reflected separately in the community rating on the right. 

General Info
Web Site Location     United States of America


Norton Safe Web has analyzed raw-sewage.net for safety and security problems. Below is a sample of the threats that were found. 

drab

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #12 on: 2 Jun 2011, 01:15 am »
I have Norton and got the same screen as you Mudslide. Must just be Norton. :wtf:

Mudslide

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #13 on: 2 Jun 2011, 01:27 am »
I have Norton and got the same screen as you Mudslide. Must just be Norton. :wtf:

I guess so.  Thanks, drab.   :wave:

Mountain-ear

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #14 on: 2 Jun 2011, 01:35 am »
It's not just Norton.  I got a warning from Webroot Internet Security Essentials:



Mudslide

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #15 on: 2 Jun 2011, 03:34 am »
Here is some more information from the Norton report....

Fake App Attack: Fake AV Website 5
Severity: HighThis attack could pose a serious security threat. You should take immediate action to stop any damage or prevent further damage from happening.DescriptionThis signature detects HTTP redirects and/or web pages which misleading applications use to attempt to lure users into downloading applications which may compromise the target host.Additional InformationMisleading applications intentionally misrepresent the security status of a computer. Misleading applications attempt to convince the user that he or she must remove potentially malware or security risks (usually nonexistent or fake) from the computer. The application will hold the user hostage by refusing to allow him or her to remove or fix the phantom problems until the 'required' software is purchased and installed. Misleading applications often look convincing - the programs may look like legitimate security programs and often have corresponding websites with user testimonials, lists of features, etc.AffectedWindows 98
Windows 95
Windows XP
Windows Me
Windows NT
Windows 2000


Nuance

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #16 on: 2 Jun 2011, 12:45 pm »
All righty - hopefully Matt can resolve the threat's being issue by his website to the AV programs.  Now, back on topic...

Matt, a big congrats to you on your new speakers!  I am thrilled that they met your expectations and that you're still honeymooning with them.  I'm going on three years and I still get chills of excitement when I know I'll be listening to my ST's that day.  Thank you for your amazing review, and welcome to the Salk family!

fsimms

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #17 on: 2 Jun 2011, 01:17 pm »
I have the Norton Security Suite from Comcast.  It may be older software but it is showing the site as clean. Nice picturesd btw. fwiw

Bob

matt_garman

Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #18 on: 2 Jun 2011, 02:12 pm »
All,

For those who are scared of my website, I also posted the pics on my Flickr site.  (If that comes up as unsafe, it's out of my hands!)

Anyway, thank you for the help and feedback on the website issues.  I appreciate it!  I downloaded Norton Safe Web Lite (which is free), and was able to replicate the problem.  I have submitted my site to Norton for re-evaluation.  I don't know how long this process takes, but hopefully it will all be cleared up reasonably soon.

I'll do the same for webroot.

Thanks again!
Matt

Saturn94

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1753
Re: New(ish) ST owner: happy!
« Reply #19 on: 2 Jun 2011, 05:30 pm »
Great post Matt. :thumb:

I glad your speaker search ended happily.  Enjoy!