Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC

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art

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Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« on: 17 Feb 2011, 05:59 am »
OK, some of you may have read the thread on Reflections and Attenuators, and will recall I used a DAC, that had a horrible input return loss. This was caused by the 2 huge ferrite beads, in series with the transformer primary.

Let's not get into whether ferrites are evil, or not. A lot of companies stick them in the SPDIF output, as it will limit the amount of HF energy, that it spews out. Sure, horrible for sound. But, those companies are a lot more interested in meeting regulatory standards, than placating audiophiles.

Having said that...........

I can not see much of a reason for using them on the SPDIF input. Well, yeah, the same reason, so let's see how much crud is really there. And whether ripping them out helps, or not.

So, assuming you have a mental image of what the stock version was, here is what it looks like, with the ferrites replaced with wire:



I need to point out the vertical scale is 1/2 half of the previous pictures. Since we are going to do a lot of tweaking, the sensitivity needs to be more.

OK, three things should stand out:

1.) The huge spike is gone.
2.) The impedance of the input stage is lower than 75R. (More about this, in a minute.)
3.) There is some crud, about 1 div, to the right of the end of the decay. That is only there, when the unit is on, and the SPDIF input is selected. With one of the other inputs selected, the crud goes away, and the impedance is 75R.

OK, that #2............

Yes, the circuitry does load the impedance. Sure, not much, but it does. So, to the experts who are 100% certain that all you need is a 75R termination.............yeah, wrong. Again.

So, how much is it off?

I removed the 75R resistor, and stuck a trimpot, in its place. Adjusted it, and got this:



The trimpot turns out to be 80 ohms. So, there!

OK, at this point someone may notice the reflection hump has moved.

Yes, it has! I changed cables, to one that I am certain is 75R. Just to make sure I am not trying to match to a cable that is really 78R. And it is longer. So, 2 cables, both show the DAC is lower than 75R. I'm  sure the peanut gallery will still be claiming I am full of it, and the cables are wrong. Whatever..........suit yourself. Just don't interrupt the thread. Please. OK?

Ok, this actually looks pretty good. Even with a yucky RCA. (And we all know how much I hate RCAs.) But, can we do better?

Sure! 

"How?"

Well, at this point, I am going to be evasive, and claim "trade secret". But, I will give you enough, to come close. (I have to point out 98% of my income is derived from the consulting side, of the business. The manufacturing side [ar-t] isn't where I earn a living. So, I can't give away the farm. I charge $$ for coming up with the right way to do this. So, the equation is not something I am going to share. Sorry.)

OK, what am I getting at.....................termination..... ..........

Everyone thinks all you needs is 75R. Well, already showed that is wrong. Assuming one figures out that resistor may need to be a bit higher, you are closer, but still wrong.

Just because the data sheet says it will work with 75R, does not mean it works best, with 75R.

So, what needs to be done.............is............is...... .....ah..............ya gotta fudge things, quite a bit.

What kind of fudging, and how much? Ah, that is the secret. But, the crux is every transformer works best with a certain load impedance. (How that is calculated...........TDR and years of experience.) But, I'll try to 'splain it, in a manner that you guys can have fun tinkering with.

Let's say that transformer works best with 300R load. So, you would put 300R, on the secondary, and stick 100R, on the input, to get 75R. Or, 100R on the secondary, and 300R, on the primary.

Or 150R, on both.

Get the gist?

Ok, so having come up with a guess, as to what they should be, here it is:



Ya know.................RCA, adaptor............all that, and the leakage inductance, of the transformer.............it looks pretty good. (Yes, if I was at the lab, and not my garage, had some BNCs, and the parts to make a zobel, it would look better. But, 99% of you guys don't have close to that much test equipment, so here is something you can do.)

Ok, you probably want to know how it looks, with the original vertical sensitivity.



I would say that looks good, all things considered. Signal is around 5 div.............reflection is a bit less than 1/2 div, so we will say the rho is around 0.1. Or, -20 dB. With an RCA, and very little tweaking, not bad.

Compare that to what we started at..................



OK, all for now. Asbestos suit on.

Pat



skunark

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Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #1 on: 17 Feb 2011, 06:13 am »
Where exactly did you take the measurements?  Since it is a 'digital signal' the ringing might actually be filtered, even if you measured at the pin of the DAC, what kind of pad did they use?  Is the signal out of spec, as for extremely slow digital signals go, it's not that bad?   There's a fair amount of undershoot it looks like, can you provide a better shot of that?

sts9fan

Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #2 on: 17 Feb 2011, 01:42 pm »
This is all very interesting Pat even if its over my head

Joseph K

Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #3 on: 18 Feb 2011, 06:18 pm »
Nice thread!

And if you consider that in the past it was already shown the presence of those ferrite beads on the receiver side of a DAC starting with M or L..

Ciao, George

Joseph K

Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #4 on: 18 Feb 2011, 06:45 pm »
Is it only me, or they changed something, but I'm not able to recover any leakage inductance information at the Scientific Conversion site?

art

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Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #5 on: 18 Feb 2011, 07:25 pm »
They do not provide that data. I did find it, somewhere, once.

The unit in this example does not use one of them.

Pat

art

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Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #6 on: 18 Feb 2011, 07:30 pm »
Where exactly did you take the measurements?

See here, for context:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90454.msg893634#msg893634


Quote
Since it is a 'digital signal' the ringing might actually be filtered, even if you measured at the pin of the DAC, what kind of pad did they use? Is the signal out of spec, as for extremely slow digital signals go, it's not that bad?   There's a fair amount of undershoot it looks like, can you provide a better shot of that?

All unimportant. Point of exercise was to show how to "fix" input stage, using typical 'scope, and SPDIF TX signal, as a TDR.

Since no one here has one.

Pat

Joseph K

Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #7 on: 18 Feb 2011, 07:42 pm »
Re S.C trafos - yes, I know it's not inside this time. Wanted to point out that they can be a suspect, other places.


art

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Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #8 on: 18 Feb 2011, 08:06 pm »
Probably in 98% of all brands. Not sure what mystery brand, is in this unit. Comes in a package, same as Pulse, Newava, and a few others.

I suppose I could pull one, and see how low it is. You and I both know it is much lower than a SC.

Pat

stormsonic

Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #9 on: 19 Feb 2011, 12:23 pm »
Reflection coefficient to return loss dB  CALCULATOR

When this project if finished, next project could be only a few posts away. Twisted pair, S/PDIF input clamped with diode, mechanical S/PDIF source selector  :o

art

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Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #10 on: 19 Feb 2011, 01:54 pm »
Oh...........my.............goodness... .................!

Who would design/build something that way. And why?

It gets better. The post after that one:

Quote
I prefer LM833 to LM4562 even tho specs are not as good.

We removed hundreds, of those horrible things, back in the 80s, when we were in the CD player business. To each his own. I wish them all luck.

Pat

stormsonic

Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #11 on: 20 Feb 2011, 02:10 am »
Who and why?
I think those questions can only be answered by guy who wrote text bellow

Quote
Dear All,

The other engineers and I have consulted and we are still doing some
fine adjustments to meet what we call musicality,when we have finalized
all the variables that we consider to be relevant and have listened to
adjust to the best possible sound possible, we will duplicate our
findings to bring to those who love music.

Cheers !

Alex

Quote
Don't worry, I know exactly what I am doing and EE is not just another Chinese made DAC on ebay or anywhere else. Lets judge the sound by the real machine.

Cheers !

Alex

stormsonic

Re: Modding the mystery "B-brand" DAC
« Reply #12 on: 20 Feb 2011, 02:20 am »
Sorry for OT and distraction, please continue with your excellent thread.