The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak

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*Scotty*

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #200 on: 29 Nov 2010, 01:09 am »
As some of may recall I never reported any exaggeration of the highs when I first placed my DIY enhancers on my speakers. Extended listening has shown that I may have too much of a "good" thing.
  What has actually happened is that the presence of this iteration of DIY enhancer actually dumbs the system down. I lost dynamic attack and much of the original space and three dimensionality the system had,  low level resolution and extension at both frequency extremes was also MIA.
   I have run into this before when I have played around with improving the amount of free electron storage at other points in the signal chain. I will have to use a less is more approach and start with 4 twisted pairs of CAT5e instead 12 in the next version.
Scotty

BudP

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Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #201 on: 29 Nov 2010, 08:05 am »
Excellent Scotty! I have been waiting for someone to do way too much and you have the exact experience. I would start from the other end, and make a series of parts that step up one thing at a time. First would be an experiment with length. Listen carefully to the sound stage air, the aura around voices as the echo takes off.

Quote
Bud - Do the number of twists in the bundle make a difference? I've made  number of these loops to experiment with, but I think I may be twisting them too tightly - usually quite a few twists to make the bundle as tight as possible. Perhaps I should try a looser bundle?

Probably not. What are you using? The typical problem is too little length and too little dielectric material and it is too slow. This gives a part that never settles down. IT goes through 10 minutes of changes every time you turn the system off, or turn it up. So, tell me what you are experiencing and I can probably help out.

Bud

andyr

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #202 on: 29 Nov 2010, 08:15 am »
Bud, possibly because Scotty is using 24g wire rather than your recommended much thinner (30g?) Litz wire, his results are spurious?  So it doesn't matter how many of the 24g Cat5 pairs he uses?

Regards,

Andy

BudP

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Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #203 on: 29 Nov 2010, 09:53 am »
The GC's that are made for sale utilize #40 AWG. This just drops the RAC # down to that of the RDC. Makes it easier to get what you want out of all of the materials. However, there is a good balance possible with any wire gauge and dielectric material. For some it is just very hard to find and big steps away from what doesn't work can be helpful.

Bud

andyr

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #204 on: 29 Nov 2010, 11:13 am »
The GC's that are made for sale utilize #40 AWG. This just drops the RAC # down to that of the RDC. Makes it easier to get what you want out of all of the materials. However, there is a good balance possible with any wire gauge and dielectric material. For some it is just very hard to find and big steps away from what doesn't work can be helpful.

Bud

Whew, Bud ... speak Engerlish why don'tcha!   :D  I have no idea what you mean.  :o

Regards,

Andy

AB

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #205 on: 29 Nov 2010, 08:54 pm »
Here's my experience. I was going to give the easiest method I could manage a try...just a try to see what you all were talking about.

I am using four 20" lengths of twisted pair 24g FEP insulated wire from some CAT5e plenum. These were simply cut to length, stripped and the stripped ends twisted together to form a loop.
My speakers are set for bi wiring and so have 4 binding posts per. The speakers are bi wired.

I attached two of these loops per speaker - one for the high negative binding post and one for the low negative binding post.
Dead simple. Building these and applying them took about 10 minutes.

I used 2 pairs of solderless bananas like these
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2123188
to make applying the loops as simple as possible.

I found an immediate change in my systems sound - more detail, a blacker background, deeper SS and more detail out at the edges of the SS. SS width has not increased but the margins are much more "active" sounding.

The number one, most obvious change is the clarity of lead and background vocals. I am able to make out far more lyrics now than before. Background vocals are now VERY well defined - what was once a massed female vocal can now be heard as three singers or what have you.

Cymbals and the various percussion in the upper freqs have much more shimmer and dynamics. Bass is cooler and tighter than before but the deepest electronica synth bass is all there - only now with a slight bit less boom.

In the first few hours I felt that the clarity was a result of a lack of bass and midbass. This might have been the case but now everything seems to be very balanced.

I am not getting any nasty brightness but I will say that during very complicated, dense music things can get "busy". It is not congested as much as it is  - "busy" - this is the best way I can think of to describe it.

As for break in, I do think these have broken in.
At first I was hearing a cycle of brightness/collapsed SS -> better sound/wider SS -> brightness/collapsed SS. The cycle had a period of about 5 minutes or so. I remember thinking the wires were "filling up" and then emptying as it seemed each track ended on a bright note and the following song started on a good note. Strange, but after a week or so this has completely gone away and the only issues I have now is with the complex/dense music being too busy or strident.

Overall, I am floored by this tweak. It's been about a week and I haven't given a thought of taking them out since day 3. Again, in my system and to my ears these 2 cent pieces of wire have resulted in a huge step up in sound quality.

If anything changes, I'll report back but for now I am very pleased.

Thanks to everyone and Bud in particular.


jtwrace

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Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #206 on: 29 Nov 2010, 09:02 pm »
Her's my experience.
I am using 20" lengths of twisted pair 24g FEP insulated wire from some CAT5e plenum. These are simply cut to length, stripped and the stripped ends twisted together. My speakers are set for bi wiring and so have 4 binding posts per. The speakers are bi wired.
I attached two of these loops per speaker - one for the high negative binding post and one for the low negative binding post.
Dead simple. Building these and applying them took me about 10 minutes. I used 2 pairs of solderless bananas like these
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2123188
to make applying the loops as simple as possible.

Always nice to see installed pics.   :thumb:

satfrat

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Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #207 on: 29 Nov 2010, 09:30 pm »
Here's my experience.

I was just about to ask you what your experiences actually were AB, but you beat me to it and modified your post with that most crucial information. Good show AB.  :thumb:
 
Cheers,
Robin

AB

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #208 on: 29 Nov 2010, 09:34 pm »

I was just about to ask you what your experiences actually were AB, but you beat me to it and modified your post with that most crucial information. Good show AB.  :thumb:
 
Cheers,
Robin

I hit the post button by accident. I had to edit it to write it.

As soon as I get my camera's batteries charged up, I'll post a pic.

BudP

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Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #209 on: 29 Nov 2010, 09:40 pm »
Quote
Whew, Bud ... speak Engerlish why don'tcha!   :D  I have no idea what you mean.  :o

What, I have to invent something as ridiculous as this is and also speak engrish toda troops?  Fah!




Ok, so RAC is the AC equivalent of DC resistance, which is RDC. Dielectric materials have two very important characteristics with respect to tone and transient information in a coherent AC signal. When an electrical, field under the control of information, changes it's vector, the signal that is this field stops at some convenient electron in the wave guide (copper wire etc.). The electron in question is phase changed in spin and angle of polarity to suit the signal and this change is reflected in a local electron, around an atom on the end of a dielectric molecule.

This dielectric material has the ability to pack more electrons per square centimeter of wave guide than does vacuum. Thnsi is called dielectric constant. There is a time to charge and a time to release to this packing process.

There is also dielectric absorption which has a charge threshold for adopting a reflected phase and polarity angle and to a degree a reluctance to release this reflected position. These are relatively low level events, when we consider typical signal levels in our speakers and cables, but when these two characteristics are not particularly low information can be lost. This charge that couldn't find a vector change home is a coherent part of an electrical field and the coherency has an information relationship. The lost charge becomes noise, with reference to the coherent signal.

Enough of these losers and you have a change in tonal gradient portrayal of notes and transient gradient rise and settling time characteristics. When this happens on the positive going portion of a wave form, we recognize it. When it happens on a negative going portion of a wave form we recognize it.

Just think of what live, natural sound would sound like if it perfectly mimicked your speaker system. The positive going wave forms are near to perfect, but the other half are not so much. If you added that missing information back into reality what would the audible consequences be.

Now go read what folks who are doing this with Ground Control and their speakers and audio equipment say they find as the benefit. And then note that at these tiny signal levels the relationships between charged plate (copper wire) and local and distant dielectric materials is subtle and easily compromised. Very easy to have too much plate surface ratio to distant dielectrics and not enough to local ones, like bare copper wire and plastic insulation in Zip cord. This makes it much more difficult to find the ideal relationship that provides enough retention of signal coherence on the negative going wave form for you and I to recognize that something has changed and also, that we like the change.

andyr

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #210 on: 29 Nov 2010, 09:49 pm »
What, I have to invent something as ridiculous as this is and also speak engrish toda troops?  Fah!

Ok, so RAC is the AC equivalent of DC resistance, which is RDC. Dielectric materials have two very important characteristics with respect to tone and transient information in a coherent AC signal. When an electrical, field under the control of information, changes it's vector, the signal that is this field stops at some convenient electron in the wave guide (copper wire etc.). The electron in question is phase changed in spin and angle of polarity to suit the signal and this change is reflected in a local electron, around an atom on the end of a dielectric molecule.

This dielectric material has the ability to pack more electrons per square centimeter of wave guide than does vacuum. Thnsi is called dielectric constant. There is a time to charge and a time to release to this packing process.

There is also dielectric absorption which has a charge threshold for adopting a reflected phase and polarity angle and to a degree a reluctance to release this reflected position. These are relatively low level events, when we consider typical signal levels in our speakers and cables, but when these two characteristics are not particularly low information can be lost. This charge that couldn't find a vector change home is a coherent part of an electrical field and the coherency has an information relationship. The lost charge becomes noise, with reference to the coherent signal.

Enough of these losers and you have a change in tonal gradient portrayal of notes and transient gradient rise and settling time characteristics. When this happens on the positive going portion of a wave form, we recognize it. When it happens on a negative going portion of a wave form we recognize it.

Just think of what live, natural sound would sound like if it perfectly mimicked your speaker system. The positive going wave forms are near to perfect, but the other half are not so much. If you added that missing information back into reality what would the audible consequences be.

Now go read what folks who are doing this with Ground Control and their speakers and audio equipment say they find as the benefit. And then note that at these tiny signal levels the relationships between charged plate (copper wire) and local and distant dielectric materials is subtle and easily compromised. Very easy to have too much plate surface ratio to distant dielectrics and not enough to local ones, like bare copper wire and plastic insulation in Zip cord. This makes it much more difficult to find the ideal relationship that provides enough retention of signal coherence on the negative going wave form for you and I to recognize that something has changed and also, that we like the change.

Much obliged, Bud.  :D

Regards,

Andy

BobM

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #211 on: 29 Nov 2010, 09:51 pm »
Thanks Bud. I think much of that still went over my head, but it is good to know that there is some "science" behind it all.

On the DIY Audio thread I believe you mentioned that you have experimented so much with this that you can "tune" it based on a users feedback. I know the products being sold are an attempt to find a happy middle ground that will work well for most systems.

In light of some people trying these and finding too much brightness or grain in their systems ... how would you suggest tuning these to compensate for that? Is there something an end user can easily do without ruining the product itself, like putting a small piece of shrink tubing over it somewhere?

Thanks,
Bob

AB

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #212 on: 29 Nov 2010, 11:00 pm »
Here's a pic...




Pretty straight forward. There's two separate wires there - one right above the other plugged into the neg posts.

BudP

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Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #213 on: 30 Nov 2010, 12:29 am »
Bob and Andy and world,

Please note that what you read is a postulate, nothing more. This is just what seems workable to me and does allow me to propose solutions to particular driver problems that fall into the categories these things can remedy.

The problem usually found is that a wide range driver, say a Lowther PM6A, will have superb retention of small signal information up to 8 kHz. To "tune" for this driver I would vary the amount of the three types of capacitance that I allow for in the Ground Control devices to enhance the retention above 4 kHz. This will offset the difficulties the driver has in this 8kHz and above region, without causing problems below that region.

Unfortunately you cannot do this with the simple wire loops that are being used here. Nor can my esteemed competitor provide this form of control with his somewhat more complex system.

Most multi-way systems use their drivers only in the minimum phase bandwidth and so a generalist tuning is quite successful and the diy applications do show considerable benefit.


The GC units are "tuned" to allow almost any system to benefit. We know of three types of systems that do not benefit.
1. fully differential
2. fully supported with poured ground planes
3. those owned by individuals determined to blacken our reputation.

There are other systems that are not improved enough to warrant what we charge. For those folks we have an unconditional money back guarantee, for 30 days. This is enough time to find out in. We do not find GC's returned because of this in any way offensive. We are just happy they had the courage to try them out. There have been very few returned though, so do beware, you may not want to do so, because you may be among the vast majority who find the improvement does justify what we ask.

I provide this diy discussion so that those who would not otherwise be willing can also benefit. So far seems pretty successful.

andyr

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #214 on: 30 Nov 2010, 12:53 am »

Bob and Andy and world,

Please note that what you read is a postulate, nothing more. This is just what seems workable to me and does allow me to propose solutions to particular driver problems that fall into the categories these things can remedy.

The problem usually found is that a wide range driver, say a Lowther PM6A, will have superb retention of small signal information up to 8 kHz. To "tune" for this driver I would vary the amount of the three types of capacitance that I allow for in the Ground Control devices to enhance the retention above 4 kHz. This will offset the difficulties the driver has in this 8kHz and above region, without causing problems below that region.


Thanks, Bob.

This post implies to me that in a 3-way active system, 3 different loops are probably necessary for bass. mid & tweeter drivers?

(Remember the active XO only feeds a restrictive range of frequencies to each driver - so, say:
* my Maggie bass panels deliver nothing that is hearable above 2KHz,
* the mid panels deliver nothing above 8KHz, and
* the ribbons deliver nothing below1KHz.)

Is this a correct assumption?  If so, can you advise what changes should be made - eg. longer loops?  More wire strands in the loop?

Regards,

Andy

BudP

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Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #215 on: 30 Nov 2010, 03:29 am »
Andy,

I would try longer for lower, shorter for higher. I have no experience with Cat 5 cable and do not know what dielectric material is used, so this is where I would start in an attempt to characterize the materials.

Bud

*Scotty*

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #216 on: 30 Nov 2010, 03:46 am »
Bud,a lot of Cat5 is teflon insulated, the two types I am playing with are teflon dielectric.
Scotty

andyr

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #217 on: 30 Nov 2010, 03:49 am »
Andy,

I would try longer for lower, shorter for higher. I have no experience with Cat 5 cable and do not know what dielectric material is used, so this is where I would start in an attempt to characterize the materials.

Bud

Thanks, Bud, appreciated.

Regards,

Andy

andyr

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #218 on: 30 Nov 2010, 03:52 am »
Bud,a lot of Cat5 is teflon insulated the two types I am playing with are teflon dielectric.
Scotty

Hi Scotty,

What are the "2 types" of teflon-insulated Cat5?  IE. what's the difference between them?

Regards,

Andy

*Scotty*

Re: The BudP DIY Speaker Ground Tweak
« Reply #219 on: 30 Nov 2010, 04:17 am »
There are probably more than three types. If you check the Belden catalogue you can find the types listed. There should be Cat5,cat5e and Cat 6. I tried 1577 initially and I am now trying 1701A which is a bonded twisted pair cable. I have scaled back to two twisted pairs 12in. long on the negative terminal of my speakers. I am going to have to wait for the dielectric to break in to see whether the system is dumbed down again or not. I should know if I have to scale back to one twisted pair or a shorter length or both tomorrow,apparently I don't have a big problem to fix. If I have made a difference for the better it is very subtle in nature.
Scotty