OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1 & Update

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Voncarlos

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OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1 & Update
« on: 1 Dec 2009, 03:37 am »
   The building of this OB5 reminded me of building a musical instrument, you spend hours, days, months and even years building something beautiful, and then the day finally comes to hear how it sounds. In anticipation of something wonderful you lovingly string it up, slowly tune each string and then play a few cords, twang, twang, twrong? What the %!#*! that sounds terrible!
   Well, the same thing has happened to my OB5s. After they were pushed into place and Kimber Kable connected I powered back up the system, slid a Norah Jones cd in the Oppo, carefully adjusted the volume knobs, rolled back in my chair and closed my eyes to listen. "Hum, okay, maybe they just need to break-in, lets try another cd". So cd after cd after cd, I kept wanting to say these sound nice but what came out was, they just need more hours to break-in. As much as I wanted to say these sound nice, I just couldn't. After a few days of breaking in I invited a friend over to listen to them and asked him to bring some cds. He had previously listened to some of his jazz cds on the Magnaplanars and knew how wonderful my system could play jazz. We sat through several cd selections and just could not understand what we were hearing. What has gone wrong, what happened to the cymbals, is this the same Neo3 that people have had such wonderful things to say about? And the mid-range, what's up with that? So after hours of listening and talking. . . and more listening and talking, we both agreed there was something definitely wrong.

This is the break down of what we heard.
Low-End : A bit fat and mushy.
Mid-Range : Loud and forward, very unruly.
High-End : Reedy and hollow, very subdued, very little imaging and not much air.

   So the first thing I thought was, did I wire something wrong? I very much doubted this since I was so careful and meticulous with this part, but perhaps I did do something wrong. My friend, who was formerly an electrical engineer, and I went through one of the crossovers and everything looked fine. I pulled out the crossovers and drivers twice and went through the entire circuit, and it was all proper. I should say that through all this I had been in contact with Danny and we were both puzzled as to why it wasn't sounding good.
   There was one thing with the circuit that I did different from the schematic, and that was how I ran the return ground. The schematic has the grounds from the drivers returning to their respective filter components. Since the drivers were so far away from the crossover, I wanted to cut down on the amount of wire the signal would have to travel, so I just daisy-chained the grounds from the drivers to crossover. My friend, the former electrical engineer, looked over the path and agreed that it was fine. I even drew up the schematic for this and sent it to Danny, who also agreed that it was fine.   
   I knew that everything was wired up correctly, so the only thing I could point to was the way I ran the ground. So this is what I became suspicious of. So according to popular electrical theory, the positive path is the important path, and the negative path is simply the return to ground. It has been a long long time since I was in electrical school, so if I have something wrong here, please, someone straighten me out. I do remember one teacher who said that there are some theories that say the negative path is the main path to follow and just as important. I kept thinking about what this teacher had said and the way I ran the ground. Since everything else was wired up correctly the daisy-chain grounds were the only things left to look at. Technically, when you look at the schematic for the way I ran the circuit everything is fine, but then, technically speaker wire should all be the same, power cables should all be the same, et cetera, et cetera.
   Needless to say, I became very deflated for a few days over all this, but there was one last thing to do. So again I pulled the crossovers and speakers and undid the daisy-chain path and ran the grounds to their respective filters, closed everything up, hooked up the Kimber Kable, loaded a cd in the Oppo and sat in my captain's chair. "Oh, that's nice", I couldn't believe what a difference I heard just from changing the ground run. Fundamentally it shouldn't have made any difference, but there it was. I went through cd after cd just trying to find something to fault and I couldn't. And the sound just got better as the hours went by. There came a point when I forgot that I was critiquing these speakers and just got into moving with the music. That's a good sign, I like a speaker that you can forget to analyze and just get into the music. A speaker needs to be musical above all else.
   So I have a theory now, maybe the way a ground is run has more to do with the sound than was previously thought. I think audio electrical designers should start to play around with this. I clearly heard a difference. In the past, who would have thought that different speaker wire made a difference, or that 3 feet of power cable could have such an effect, or even how one ran their grounds would make a difference.
   So, what was it I was hearing and how do they compare to the Magnaplanar MGIIIa. These are very different speaker designs. Well, I can tell you that what I was hearing was wonderful, truly, very enjoyable. I will not be moving the Maggies back into place. These OB5s are going to stay in the main listening spot, not only are they delicious to look at but just as delicious to experience. My listening area is certainly not ideal, the back wall of my left speaker has an air-pocket blind covering a double pane window and the right has solid wall for a few feet that then drops back about 4 feet. I've temporarily covered the solid wall portion with some 1/2 inch solid foam insulation to dampen it. Also the left speaker has a side wall about 4.5 feet away, while the right speaker has none. This is not an ideal situation but the OBs have done very well regardless. Just like the Maggies, the OBs have easily been able to throw out a phantom speaker 4 to 5 feet to the left and right, with lots of spaciousness and air.



The first cd I used was Norah Jones-Come Away With Me, this is a delicate sound with clear differentiation between the players. I could hear Norah's voice placement just slightly higher than the instruments, just like the Maggies did and there was solid placement of her voice in the center and a wide and deep soundstage. I liked the piano much better on the OBs than the Maggies.

Next cd is Robbie Robertson's-Storyville, many of the tracks on this cd start off with dynamic drums and drum/bass lead-ins with lots of various rattles and percussions in the back field. The kick drum is tight and low in the soundstage where it should be. The crack of the drumstick on the edge of the snare is just that. CRACK! And the slap of the brushes is just that as well. Whack! Ssshhhhh.

The Blue Nile-A Walk Across The Rooftops: This cd is one of my all-time favorites and dates back to 1983. When Linn, the Audio Manufacture wanted to get into the recording/record making business, this is the band they wanted for their first recording. The LP is just as wonderful. This recording just oozes volumes and volumes of spaciousness. The sound is, as if you are in a huge cavern, with all sorts of occasional rattles, bells, dongs, clanks and things floating in space. This is where I would have to say the Maggies throw a better illusion at this. The OBs do a good job, but then I think only another Panel or Electrostatic could really compete with such a huge illusion.

Another cd I use for illusion is Prefab Spout's-Jordan The Comeback. This was produced by Thomas Dolby. And again has all sorts of sounds coming from various areas of an expansive soundstage.

Jackson Browne-Late For The Sky: The quintessential angst album for a kid growing up in Los Angeles in the 50s and 60s. I would have to give this one to the Maggies, but only by a slim hair, there are a lot of group harmonies in these songs and the Maggies do a wonderful job of filling the room with them. Their voices come from about 5 to 6 feet up in the air, while the OBs are producing them at tweeter height. I am thinking that if I tilt the OBs back a little more, it might raise the voices. I already have them just slightly tilting back.

Some other cds I'm currently listening to on the OBs:

Abdelli-Among Brothers: Although many might think this is Arabic, in fact it is not, it is Algerian. This is a wonderful album that is very well recorded and one that would make a good introduction if someone wanted to explore that sound. It's filled with mandolas, guitars, darbukka, bells, percussions et cetera. The wood flute is downright ghostly. If, while listening to this, you don't find yourself dancing or even just clapping your hands, than you must be in a coma. Go have some good hummus. Here, the OB5s win out with their superb mid-range and low-end.
« Last Edit: 9 Dec 2009, 02:34 pm by Voncarlos »

Voncarlos

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 2
« Reply #1 on: 1 Dec 2009, 03:38 am »
Various Artists-Lullabies from The Axis Of Evil : This is a beautiful cd of lullabies from Palestine, Iraq, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria and N. Korea. These are then double tracked with western singers and musicians the likes of Nina Hagen, Eddi Reader, Rickie Lee Jones and more. These are very sweet and tender lullabies, you may find yourself weeping from their beauty. I was surprised to find my wife singing along to some of these as she remembered them from her childhood. 

Fiona Apple-When The Pawn : Nice album from a young songsmith. Here, I liked this much better on the OB5s

Sting-If On A Winter's Night . . .
: This is a really nice cd. It clearly shows that Sting has very good control of this voice. I would say it reminds me of a melding of Elizabethan or even Troubadour songs with modern and folk instrumentation. Again, better on the OB5s

Various Irish Music, in the vein of the 1970's music revival, such as Planxty, The Bothy Band, Christy Moore, et cetera. And more recent artist like Danu, Solas and so on. This music sounds great on the OBs, better than the Maggies.

In conclusion to all this I will say that the OB5s are quite wonderful and as I said earlier they are going to stay in the footprint of the Maggies. The OB5s clearly are better at producing a lower and upper bottom end. I can probably tweak the Maggies to come close, but not the same. The Maggies can give cymbals a certain kind of sparkle and air that I have not heard yet from the OB5s. On the other hand there are times when the Maggies can't handle some loud female voices reaching into high octaves; the OB5s did this with no problem. I think a drum kit played with brushes just sounds incredible on the OB5s, really really nice.

A big thank you to Danny for producing a wonderful design and for running a truly honest and quality business.
This has been one of the best woodworking journeys I have ever been on.

So, as in the beginning of this, the very first time you play a new built instrument it just doesn't sound very good. But then over hours, days, time, it just gets better and better and better even over years it can bloom into something sounding quite wonderful.

Thanks to all.
« Last Edit: 8 Dec 2009, 07:23 pm by Voncarlos »

stevenkelby

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #2 on: 1 Dec 2009, 01:53 pm »
Wow, fantastic post Carlos, glad you got it sorted (I bet you are too!).

It''s always been obvious to my ears that cables affect the audible sound, and I'm not suprised to read that grounding differences had such a huge affect for you. All the electrons that flow up the + must have to flow easily back down the - Or something :)

Best,

Steve

Danny Richie

Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #3 on: 1 Dec 2009, 11:17 pm »
I was also concerned about the way you wired it. Electrically it was okay, but that was a lot of sharing negative legs. I am glad the re-wiring straightened it out.

jules

Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #4 on: 1 Dec 2009, 11:47 pm »
Quote
So according to popular electrical theory, the positive path is the important path, and the negative path is simply the return to ground. It has been a long long time since I was in electrical school, so if I have something wrong here, please, someone straighten me out. I do remember one teacher who said that there are some theories that say the negative path is the main path to follow and just as important.

Electron flow is actually from negative to positive in copper wire and it's a quirk of history that this was discovered after "positive" and "negative" where named. It can be useful to think of  circuit as a circle which gives a different perspective on idea that components that merely "return" to ground are not significant.

jules

sl_1800

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #5 on: 4 Dec 2009, 02:56 pm »
Quote
So according to popular electrical theory, the positive path is the important path, and the negative path is simply the return to ground.

In a AC circuit, alternating current, such as a musical signal,  I really don't believe in the above statement, since the current flow is reversing at a rate determined by the frequency of the musical signal.  As you found, it does make a difference.

In single ended electronics such as a RCA type interconnect, the ground in the interconnect can be cut and the music will continue to play, why, because the entire ac music signal is being carried on one wire, the center conductor.  In a speaker the + and -  are just that, they both have to be there to carry the flow, so the - is not "just a ground return".

Quote
Since the drivers were so far away from the crossover, I wanted to cut down on the amount of wire the signal would have to travel, so I just daisy-chained the grounds from the drivers to crossover.

Each of the crossover/driver combinations is in parallel.  When you "daisy-chained' the grounds back to the crossovers you created a large parallel driver and a large parallel crossover, not the distinctive pieces they would need to be.

mgalusha

Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #6 on: 4 Dec 2009, 07:36 pm »
In single ended electronics such as a RCA type interconnect, the ground in the interconnect can be cut and the music will continue to play, why, because the entire ac music signal is being carried on one wire, the center conductor.

I should keep my mouth shut, but No. It may continue to work because there is an alternate path that completes the circuit. In order for electricity to flow a complete circuit must exist, it matters not if it's AC or DC. The alternate path can take several forms but I guarantee that it won't work with an open circuit.

Sorry for the OT but this bugged me to much to ignore.

I have been following the build of these speakers and I am still in awe of the thought and skill put into building them. I am very glad the saga turned out well and they sound every bit as nice as they look.  :thumb:

mike

dlipter

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #7 on: 4 Dec 2009, 11:30 pm »
I use to modify amplifiers for a living and a huge part of the mod process was to tear out all the power supply and signal grounding and reconfigure it into a star type ground. In other words all high current ground returns had their own unique path back to ground.

I suspect your original daisy chain configuration was creating an intermodulation type distortion where current from one device was feeding back to another resulting in a muddy mess. Think of bi wiring where the high woofer currents are handled separate from the tweeter currents.

Dennis

Voncarlos

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #8 on: 8 Dec 2009, 08:34 pm »
UPDATE !!!
Did I say that big enough?
I knew my system was sensitive but this has me rethinking everything!
I switched out my Kimber speaker cable and put back my old "unmentionable" cable, OMG, the cymbals are back! I now think these OB5s can carry the sound of the Maggie's ribbon. I thought the Kimber sounded very dynamic and warm, but missed the aliveness of the sizzle with cymbals and such. My old "unmentionable" cable is very analytical but now I miss the warmth and dynamics of the Kimber.  :scratch:

So my question to AudioCircle now is, can I run both cables at the same time without creating a problem? I'm hoping that doing so won't cancel out their strengths.
I know this might sound like a dumb question, but I always take the tact,"the only dumb question is the one not asked'.

corndog71

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #9 on: 8 Dec 2009, 08:58 pm »
Which Kimber kable are you using?

Danny Richie

Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #10 on: 8 Dec 2009, 09:08 pm »
Let me guess, does the "unmentionable" cable use some Silver coated Copper?

Using them both will likely cause a phase shift much in the same way as bi-wiring with dissimilar wire types.

Sounds like you need a single good or higher quality cable.

I stock some of the Electra Cable and can send you some out to demo if you like.

http://www.electracable.com/

Voncarlos

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #11 on: 8 Dec 2009, 09:41 pm »
Let me guess, does the "unmentionable" cable use some Silver coated Copper?

I stock some of the Electra Cable and can send you some out to demo if you like.

http://www.electracable.com/

Okay, I was hoping to avoid this part, gulp, but the "unmentionable" is some Monster cable from about 1978 +/-. This was before they've become the big cheapos they are now. It's just plain copper strand in about 10 gage, maybe 8, with a 1/2 inch space between the - and + with probably a clear vinyl coating.
The reason I'm using it is because in my current setup I need a 20 ft run. That eliminates buying anything new right now because of the cost. I may have to go back to putting the Amps by the speakers and have some nice Audioquest from about 1989 for that.
The Kimber is the 8tc Anniversary that is white and clear.

So Danny, do you think it should be okay to try the two cables together without doing any harm?

Danny Richie

Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #12 on: 8 Dec 2009, 09:49 pm »
Well, it can cause some phase shifts. Also, that old Mosnter Cable is likely really oxidized by now, so there still may be a lot there that you are still not getting.

I'd get those amps as close as possible to the speakers and either try the Electra Cable stuff, or contact me about making something real similar (DIY some) using my top notch internal wire.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #13 on: 8 Dec 2009, 09:52 pm »
Carlos:

Do a search for Walmart powercord wire. It's cheap and sounds good. Better than the old Monster.

Cymbals, chimes, bells, ring to life on my OB 5s using 25 foot cat 5 cable. Personally, I have found the Maggie ribbons bright, while the Neo tweeter honest.


Rocket_Ronny

corndog71

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #14 on: 8 Dec 2009, 09:55 pm »
While it would be much easier to try out Danny's cables, I have a tweak for Kimber 8TC that helps open up the top end a bit and reduces some of the warmth.

I was inspired by reading about Kimber's Select cables and their anti-static properties and thought of a much cheaper way of doing it.  Also, it's reversable and does not involve cutting or changing the cable permanently.

If you hold the cable with both hands and sort of squeeze in the cable it opens up the braid into a tubular shape.  You may lose a few inches of length but it shouldn't be too bad. 

Next get a bunch of used dryer sheets.  I use the fragrance-free Bounce. :wink:
And I stuff them into the middle of the cable.  It's a little tedious and might make you feel silly but I swear it changes them for the better.


Rocket_Ronny

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #15 on: 8 Dec 2009, 09:58 pm »

Rob:

Reading the Kimber tweek just tells me we have been into this audio game way too long.   :o   


Rocket_Ronny

corndog71

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #16 on: 8 Dec 2009, 10:04 pm »

Rob:

Reading the Kimber tweek just tells me we have been into this audio game way too long.   :o   


Rocket_Ronny
:rotflmao:
I'm on year 15. 

I tell you as much as I love Kimber's lower cost cables, it equally frustrates me how much they charge for their upper level cables.  I just think charging over a grand is a bit obscene.  Still, I've heard their Select cables and they are no joke.  I'll just never be able to afford them.

So throwing a $4 box of used dryer sheets into the mix is a tweak I can live with.

Danny Richie

Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #17 on: 8 Dec 2009, 10:34 pm »
FYI, you can get great results doing that same thing with a polyethylene tube. It is a lot easier to install too.

Nick77

Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #18 on: 8 Dec 2009, 10:38 pm »
Quote
   contact me about making something real similar (DIY some) using my top notch internal wire. 

I can vouch for Danny's diy approach, they ousted a pair of anti-cables no problem. I reccomend them very highly, great bass and airly highs with excellant details.

Voncarlos

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Re: OB5 by Carlos critique Part 1
« Reply #19 on: 8 Dec 2009, 10:58 pm »
Quote
   contact me about making something real similar (DIY some) using my top notch internal wire. 

I can vouch for Danny's diy approach, they ousted a pair of anti-cables no problem. I reccomend them very highly, great bass and airly highs with excellant details.

Okay, this is sounding intriguing. I think I'm going to move my set-up closer to the OB5s, if even just temporally, so I can truly audition the speakers. Once I do that I'll try different cables. But for now, I like the idea to add the poly tube to the Kimbers.