Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities

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nullspace

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #80 on: 15 Oct 2009, 06:08 pm »
The midbass horn particularly intrigues me.  Actually I had the thought to make something similar after I first saw the 300hz horn.  In fact I bought a set of router bits intended to ease such construction... 

That looks pretty sweet, Josh. I had briefly messed around with pen & paper to see how difficult it would be to make a petal horn like that, but those router bits would make it almost trivial. Nice find.

I'd love to have a horn that could cover 300-6khz. Unfortunately, I don't have the room for it and I don't know how I'd get reasonable measurements in order to do the crossover.

Regards,
John

macrojack

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #81 on: 15 Oct 2009, 06:26 pm »
Well, I just received a return email from Bill Woods. He won't be visiting here as he is done with what he calls "public debate". He would, however, welcome inquiries and conversation from any of you who wish to pursue that. He's keeping busy consulting for B&C and RCF right now.

John,
Bill designed and built crossovers for my AH!300 which he probably still has. If so that might take care of one of your obstacles. They were 3-ways I believe.

As for size, my horn mouths are about 16.5 inches i.d.(almost 19 outside point to point) and about 23 inches from front of horn to back of driver. I believe these horns will reach that 300 hz. you want with a different driver.

nullspace

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #82 on: 15 Oct 2009, 07:12 pm »
You're right, I could buy the horns then get Bill to do a crossover, but, aggravating as I find it from time to time, I actually like doing the measurement & design stuff so what ever I build has to be within my capabilities. Getting decent measurements down to 150hz in order to figure out a 300hz crossover ain't one of them, unfortunately. Bill and others are bright enough/ have enough experience that they can probably see through a lot of the room clutter & stuff in less than perfect measurements, but I don't have that skill set.

It's not so much the physical size of the horns, but I have a pretty small listening room and I only sit maybe 8-10' from the speakers. In listening to the AH!300s previously, that's too close for me. Now, if we ever move out of our 100yr-old four-square and into a McMansion, game on...

Regards,
John

nullspace

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #83 on: 15 Oct 2009, 07:29 pm »
So, there's a couple people with Geddes' waveguides and a couple of us with concial horns...

Anyone with tractrix or possibly Le'Cleach horns like the ones JohnR linked to a couple pages back (Azurahorn)? Info on implementation?

I'm sure Josh has seen these, but in case others haven't Jack Bouska made some pretty nice wooden OS waveguides with an interesting take on the mouth roundover: Post at Lansing Heritage.

Regards,
John

macrojack

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #84 on: 15 Oct 2009, 07:33 pm »
Move to Western Colorado. Indoor space is surely cheaper and more available and I could use the company.

As far as DIY is concerned, for me, that is the path of last resort. I'm not handy, scientifically astute, or adventurous so I never even think about my capabilities beyond "How can I pay for it?" and "How can I get it here?". That's why I was not so sure my thread belonged in the Lab.

The crossovers I mentioned were made for me and shipped to me. I returned them so as to pursue the active path (which you might consider). But they already exist and they are basically "plug and play". If it's that easy.......why not just make it happen?

nullspace

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #85 on: 15 Oct 2009, 09:42 pm »
There's been talk of bass horns, so here's a pair from Steve Schell (of Cogent fame) that have a cutoff of 35hz and are reasonably room-friendly. These were actually up for sale on the Lansing forum in the not too distant past. Here's a link to that post: FS: Big, honking bass horns.



My 'dream' system would be something like this from 35-300hz, a nice big conical horn with a vintage RCA phenolic driver from 300-6khz, then the little B&C DE35 from 6khz and up...

Regards,
John

JoshK

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #86 on: 15 Oct 2009, 10:10 pm »
As long as we are dreaming, which is very fun to do.  I'd love to put two scaled tapped horns on their side making a 18" platform of sorts for one end of the room like this:


Then above this cutoff use a midbass horn like aforementioned, or turn one like these guys did:


and then use a 15-16" OS guide from 900hz up like Geddes does on the Summa. 

First octave can be IB subs but in multiple locations around the room.


JoshK

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #87 on: 15 Oct 2009, 10:13 pm »
Did I mention, I so wanted these?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/136976-full-size-142hz-round-tractrix-horns.html

Wife wasn't having it.   :nono:   

JoshK

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #88 on: 15 Oct 2009, 11:28 pm »
A set of these would do too.

JDUBS

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #89 on: 16 Oct 2009, 01:09 am »
Unitys....yes!!!   :thumb:

-Jim


A set of these would do too.


JoshK

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #90 on: 16 Oct 2009, 02:41 am »
Have you seen the newer SH-69?  It seems more domestic friendly in size. Also the 60? x 90? dispersion is more domestically suited as well.


JDUBS

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #91 on: 16 Oct 2009, 03:44 am »
Josh, I just checked out the SH-69 on the Danley website and that thing looks awesome!  I've wanted a pair of SH-100Bs for a while...but these might be (slightly) more realistic.....waaaay down the road.

-Jim








macrojack

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #92 on: 16 Oct 2009, 03:58 am »
Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities

Looks like we've cited a lot of opportunities. What would we consider to be the advantages of horns?

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #93 on: 16 Oct 2009, 04:40 am »
my guesses...

dynamics/sensitivity:  Enhances engagement to the music, excitement. Allos lower wattage amps to be used

controlled directivity: (on some?) gives the ability to reduce sidewall reflections and reduce smearing, for greater detail/transparency.

allow for lower tweeter crossover point: lower mass driver which is easier to start and stop for better detail/transparency.

-Tony

JohnR

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #94 on: 16 Oct 2009, 05:35 am »
For me the attraction is dynamic range. Less interaction with the room is also appealing, in principle at least. I don't own horns but keep thinking about them as a possibility.

JoshK

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #95 on: 16 Oct 2009, 12:46 pm »
I stated my opinions on advantages in post #6.  I'll reiterate what I believe is key:

1) lower distortion, lower compression.  I think what people talk about in dynamics is proof that other other speakers have a lot more compression and distortion than people realize.  Headroom spells lower distortion at typical listening levels.
2) sensitivity, somewhat related to dynamics, but places less burden on amps leading to lower distortion, and most importantly on the harmonics that matter.
3) controlled dispersion and potential for even power response. 

sts9fan

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #96 on: 16 Oct 2009, 01:20 pm »
I was attracted to the speakers I have now for a number of reasons.
1) sensitivity.  While not as crazy as some other horns they allow me to play with lots of amps.  I have been enjoying the Pass DIY stuff and these work great.
2) I felt that CD would make listening to the speakers while wandering around the house more enjoyable (it has)
3) The sceince and explainations of it
4) The fact that the designer stated that room issues can be minimized. 

 

macrojack

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #97 on: 16 Oct 2009, 01:22 pm »
Tony - I didn't understand your meaning on that 3rd point about tweeters. Can you clarify?

The advantages I find in horns are:

- Cool looking - The pictures you guys have posted in this thread support that contention very well.
 
- High sensitivity - As has been mentioned, they can be used with small power but generally can handle very big amplification as well. Allows for use of almost any amplifier. It seems like amplifiers are like most things in that you can apply your funds to more power quantity or more power quality. If you don't require much power quantity, that leaves more funding available for power quality.

- Placement can be easier because side and front wall proximity are not very critical due to directionality of sound transmission. This is somewhat offset by the fact that horns need to be large and nearfield listening really isn't an option.

-Durability - Most horn loudspeaker components come from the pro world where abuse and demands can be devastating. For in home use this stuff is virtually indestructible.

- Theft - Too big, no popular brand names, and funny looking to the masses. What are those things?

- Lifelike - Dynamic is our word. Other types of speakers can't begin to bring the feel of a live music event into your home like horns do.

- Coherent - I have owned most types of loudspeakers, though not all brands, over the years and have never experienced the voice clarity that my horns provide. This includes point source, electrostatic and more conventional multi-driver designs, many with sterling pedigrees. Horns rule!!

The dark underbelly of advantages would be, of course, disadvantages. Typically those mentioned are size and price and indeed, these things will keep many people from exploring the horn option. I maintain, however, that if you can do well designed horns, you can do no better.


JoshK

Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #98 on: 16 Oct 2009, 01:40 pm »
Slightly OT, but in the realm of this discussion. 
Did you guys see this?  Project Octagon

What I wouldn't do for a dedicated HT room where I could go all out.  In many ways, Paul has acheived many of the benefits of horns while not really using horns throughout (he uses big waveguides for the highs though.


macrojack

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers - Advantages and Opportunities
« Reply #99 on: 16 Oct 2009, 02:42 pm »
Project Octagon appears to have some of the subject  matter and all of the spirit of this thread.

Wouldn't we all like to have a large dedicated space? I think at times about the pole barns around here. They're used for hay storage and are just a roof without walls. Some of them are I-beam construction. My daydream involves having one of those constructed with radiant heat in the slab and straw bails between the girders for walls. It could be soundproof, acoustically dead, energy-efficient and cavernous for relatively small bucks. The interior could be configured and way you like since inside walls would carry no load. Does this dream have merit? Hell, you could build bass horns right into it at one end and your soaking tub at the other. Or create a second floor at one end with a kitchen under it. What are ideal dimensions for a good sized horn room? How big does the building need to be for an empty nester couple? Include a LAB in the design and we've come full circle.