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Author Topic: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!  (Read 14503 times)

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scorpion

Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #440 on: 6 Nov 2009, 08:01 PM »
Sirs,

I certainly appreciate your posts here.

I have heard zygadr's panels and they sound very good. I think they may be lacking in the low bass and in the extreme highs. But as a compromise they are quite good also when compared to common fullrange speaker designs. And also they are cheap. I certainly advocate all steps to try new materials. But one should not be questioning diverse filtering approaches. They can give clues not yet realized.

They do sound omnidirectional, compared to Stig Carlsson's designs, familiar here in Sweden, I think that the panel's response are very much more omnidirectional than Stig Carlsson ever accuired with his dynamic speaker designs. But even those old designs did show remarkable 'no shows'.  :)

/Erling
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Rudolf

Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #441 on: 6 Nov 2009, 10:19 PM »
It would seem that at some point this technique changes from true bending waves to something more along the lines of pistonic behavior. We may need to think about something Bob Carver did with his woofer system on the original Amazing Loudspeaker by having a high "Q" at low frequencies to make up for cancellation due to baffle width. It's hard to say at this point, we're not dealing with true bipole or dipole operation, but a chaotic transition.

I would not call it a chaotic transition, but it gets indistinguishable for the ear (and the eye in this case too).
At the lowest frequencies there is a clear difference between a panel bending in phase (left) and with 180deg phase difference (right):


One octave above the difference already gets a bit blurred:


At high frequencies we can hardly distinguish between this pattern and the one with opposite phase (not shown):


I understand how one could describe the last pattern as 'more along the lines of pistonic behavior'. But isn't this only a mental mistake while in fact it still is a perfectly bending wave?

Rudolf

bobloblob

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #442 on: 7 Nov 2009, 12:56 AM »
A couple of interesting posts by Moray James about bending wave transducers.  He was one of the principals in developing one a couple of decades ago.  Scroll down for his posts.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-47.html

While I think it is interesting to find how and why these panels of Ziggy's work, I think the major point is that they do work, unless we do not believe the reports.  And, if they sound as good as stated, I am happy.  The rest goes more to satisfy my curiosity as to how.

I hope that the frequency response to the listener is accurate.  I had a friend who bought the first iteration of the Vandersteen, and was absolutely in love with them - for just over an hour.  The guy had played in a symphony when he was young, and said that something didn't seem quite right with the speakers after listening to them for a while.  He returned them.  I heard some Vandersteens later in a shop, and compared them to about a half-dozen other systems I knew to be flat.  On one of the records making the "audiophile" rounds at the time, Tarentella Tarentule, on the Vandersteens it sounded like the piccolo player was up at the front of the stage and everyone else was in the background accompanying him.  On all the others, the piccolo was just part of the orchestra.  After that, I reasoned that if a speaker didn't measure relatively flat, I wasn't hearing the music as intended, whether or not I could tell.  Most people who talk about how they have more "life" in their music without bsc can get the same effect by turning up the upper midrange/lower treble, which many shops in the 70's did on the systems they were pushing, telling the customers that the speaker was delivering more "detail".  I doubt that these would need any bsc.  So, while I am not concerned about the measured response, I am concerned about how accurate a speaker is, and usually the frequency response gives a clue about this.  There are also many ways to deal with dips and rises other than eq, so that would be my last recourse if there is a problem here.

What I would like to hear from someone is not so much what the measured response is, since that sounds like it may be more difficult to get with these, but rather how the sound compares with a speaker known to be flat, comparisons like whether the instruments all seem to be in the same location front to back, and have the same "weight".  In other words, in a symphonic piece by the New York Philharmonic, does it still sound like the NY Phil, and the same performance, on both speakers, given the fact that the presentation by the two systems will be different?

Forgive the rambling please.  Just thinking "out loud" in print.
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captainjack115

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #443 on: 7 Nov 2009, 02:18 AM »

It would seem that at some point this technique changes from true bending waves to something more along the lines of pistonic behavior. We may need to think about something Bob Carver did with his woofer system on the original Amazing Loudspeaker by having a high "Q" at low frequencies to make up for cancellation due to baffle width. It's hard to say at this point, we're not dealing with true bipole or dipole operation, but a chaotic transition.

I would not call it a chaotic transition, but it gets indistinguishable for the ear (and the eye in this case too).
At the lowest frequencies there is a clear difference between a panel bending in phase (left) and with 180deg phase difference (right):


One octave above the difference already gets a bit blurred:


At high frequencies we can hardly distinguish between this pattern and the one with opposite phase (not shown):


I understand how one could describe the last pattern as 'more along the lines of pistonic behavior'. But isn't this only a mental mistake while in fact it still is a perfectly bending wave?

Rudolf
[/quote][/b]

The graphics from your original post are interesting.

I'm curious how you obtained the bending wave graphics. Are they computer simulations, or real world tests with actual exciters? If so, have you personally conducted these tests. I ask only because I tend to be skeptical about third party testing methods, such as something found on a web site. If I see a "Wet Paint" sign you know I have to find out for myself.

I use the term "chaotic transition" because there's no proof in my mind to the contrary.
The graphs are indicating full bending wave mode, but they represent an unknown source to me.

Anyway, in keeping with Paul Klipschs' theory of small diaphragm movement keeping distortion low. Vibrating panels, dipole or bipole need to have large areas to move enough air and keep distortion low.

Personally, I love the idea of listening to a full range panel. Dividing music into multiple frequencies and drivers always end up with integration problems when everything hits the ears.
My own everyday system is a two way. I use B&G RD-75's and 4 12" woofers built into an infinite baffle. The bass is more than anyone could ever hope to have, deep, powerful and low distortion.......... However!!!!! The line source B&G monopoles can't come close to an in room DBL. I'm willing to strive for acceptable bass if I can keep the magical 3D.

Jack
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bobloblob

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #444 on: 7 Nov 2009, 06:48 AM »
"Personally, I love the idea of listening to a full range panel. Dividing music into multiple frequencies and drivers always end up with integration problems when everything hits the ears.... Jack'"

I understand.  I've gone down the full-range path a bit over the years, and I love it for what it can do.  I've also made that compromise over what I called "acceptable" bass.  I've had all sorts of what I thought were great systems, and always found integrating a sub into them to be difficult and, in some cases, impossible.  However, it was an "Ahah!" moment when I heard the horn subs, and then live cellos.  It made me extremely aware of how much musical content I had written off as not really necessary for my satisfaction.  I no longer want to toss off that low end as nearly extraneous.  I want it the way the composer intended it, and the way the musicians played it.  This may be partly because I don't hear much beyond 12K, if that, but a lot of it is that now I want to hear the whole piece, and to hear the bass notes rise along with the midrange and treble.

From the posts, it looks like there may be less treble with these panels, at least for some responders.  However, that seems to be out of the range of most instruments anyway, and up in the frequencies that we think of as "airiness", "openness", or whatever.  I don't think that should be too hard to deal with, if necessary.

A compromise I really wish to avoid is to have the lower registers squished into the background.  If it calls for a sub cut in somewhere at the bottom, I think it is worth the work to try to integrate one.  The panels seem close to fullrange, with some work maybe not even needing a supertweeter.  At this point I am far too aware of the bass that was missing or compromised to give it away, even though it seems like these will go pretty low.  I will have to wait and see what my feelings are when I get around to putting mine together.  The major fact is that these are wide-range enough that whatever dividing is done will be out of the range of most critical hearing.  If it affects the rest of the frequencies too much, well, we'll see.  I understand what you are saying though.  That describes most of my audio life.  Compromises, always compromises.  You pick what you can live with.  Then, in a few years, you want more out of your system.

Anyway, enough of my rambling.  Back to what the guys who are building and developing these are coming up with.  Far more interesting than my thoughts.

Take care

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BowerR64

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #445 on: 7 Nov 2009, 08:15 AM »
I just ordered 5 pair of these today to play around with. Im wanting to build one like the guy on youtube. Does anyone know where to get those cool little tweeters he used?

The idea of a flat board style speaker is cool but i dont have a problem mounting a little tweeter to the top to give it the slight brightness it needs nor the low end he used with that seperate sub.

THe sub i can hide anywhere and the tweeter can be positioned to give a nice direction.

I like his whole setup, the chrome stand, the black board then the neat little matching crome dust cap tweeter.
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el`Ol

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #446 on: 7 Nov 2009, 10:55 AM »
They do sound omnidirectional, compared to Stig Carlsson's designs, familiar here in Sweden, I think that the panel's response are very much more omnidirectional than Stig Carlsson ever accuired with his dynamic speaker designs. But even those old designs did show remarkable 'no shows'.  :)

My DIY Carlsson OA-50 inspired three-way speakers are in fact the reason why I stopped my DML experiments. They have exactly the amount of indirect sound I need.
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sedge

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #447 on: 7 Nov 2009, 12:13 PM »
Zygadr
I am glad you are back on form and ready for action. In all my tests I have been very excited with the outcome so far. The problem is just trying to understand how they function. When is an nxt not an next? Depending on panel size, weight, stiffness and amounts of damping in the panel, my plywood panel seems to go from 20 k to 250 htz in pretty much nxt mode. Below this I am sure it is a piston. As a contrast I tried Foamcore again (as the sound was dull and boomy). I measured the frequency response across the front and back panels, moving the microphone from the back of the driver to the edge of the panel you see a reduction in hf as you move along the surface. On the front surface as you move the microphone from the one inch foot of the exciter, the hf drops dramatically almost immediately down to 10 k within an inch or so. I then cut a hole in the Foamcore just big enough for the exciter to fit. What I did then was cut a disc of this ali. about two and a half inches in diameter and stuck the disc to the front panel and the exciter to the back of the disc so that the disc (drives) the front surface. The sound was much improved but Foamcore is very lossy. It still drops the hf quite fast as you move the microphone across the surface. This seems to match the omni-directional graph seen on these pages, very well indeed. You could make the disc into a strip, say 8 inches wide by the length of the panel. Could this strip of material be bolsa wood? Any ideas. This panel does not act like nxt above say, 10 k, or below 250 htz approx. The panel has to be very rigid for nxt for frequencies to travel along the full length and width of the panel.
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BowerR64

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #448 on: 7 Nov 2009, 07:16 PM »
Can you guys recomend a cheap tweeter i can add to these transducers to add the highs these lack when mounted to typical sufaces?

I want to bild a set like smokinjoe from youtube but im not sure what tweeter he used. There is a cheap 6X9 frame tweeter on parts express i could use maybe or i found some on e-bay that are paper cone type.

somthing like a 2" or somthing compairable to smokinjoe i wanted to order them so everything comes in around the same time.
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FULLRANGEMAN

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #449 on: 7 Nov 2009, 07:43 PM »
Hi Boys,
As a new panel material is hard to find or make or expensive(Nomex, cardboard hive) our standard material is GatorFoam.
I think there is a alternative way to this project we are missing:
we need to do our own big, very big exciters ourselves, I think 4 or 6 inches exciters, in 16 ohms only to do a parallel connection with 4 exciters for a used final impedance of 4 ohms.
We can not afford to use Series connection cause we want Hi-End performance and not frequencies anomalies(serie link), big exciters have a higher sensitivity and we need this to use only 4 exciters.    If anyone know as do exciters I think the exit to success is use 4 big exciters of 16 ohms.
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BowerR64

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #450 on: 7 Nov 2009, 08:00 PM »
I thought i read that these are just speakers with no cone? Why couldnt you take another driver and just cut the basket off and remove the cone then attach it the same way we do these?
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FULLRANGEMAN

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #451 on: 7 Nov 2009, 09:15 PM »
I thought i read that these are just speakers with no cone? Why couldnt you take another driver and just cut the basket off and remove the cone then attach it the same way we do these?
Maybe the suspension of a exciter is different than a cone driver, Iam not sure.
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sedge

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #452 on: 7 Nov 2009, 09:41 PM »
a few weeks ago I was listening to some music on a test disc when my friend phoned ,he said he was interested in the panels and wanted to come over and have a listen .Anyway we had a little chat and I said goodbye ,I then started to look out of the upstairs window wondering who the hell was making all the fog horn noises out in the street below,when the penny dropped [thud]I flew down the staires and shut the power off to the audio system  :duh: 45 mins of test tones at near full volume [ouch].The smell of burning,and the heat of the exciters ,it was amazing .later when they cooled off  I checked them and they seemed ok but a few days later one of the plastic feet fell off .I had to cut the foot off the  experimental panel I was using , and in doing so found that the heat from the exciter had melted all the foam in the panel around it , if I had not cut the exciter off I  would not have known the panel was hollow!.  apart from that the exciters seem fine , any idea which glue is best to stick the foot back on with? If not Im down to my last 39 exciters  :lol:
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sedge

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #453 on: 7 Nov 2009, 09:58 PM »
bowerR64
with a small panel of that size using ali , I would expect the panel to reach 20k .Try it first and see,save money and time .good luck.
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sedge

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #454 on: 7 Nov 2009, 10:51 PM »
on my left I was running a 2 ft x1ft panel  xo to a sub , on the right I had a 4ft x 2ft panel  full range .The sub 15 inch ran up to 300 hz aprox .If I cut the lows to the sub there was a lot les LF power [and boom !] but also when I cut  the lows to the panel only ,there was a lack of slam ,I have noticed this on  other large panels I have made.A large panel can give stunning slam .A large 15inch LF unit in a box  may give a lot of bass  [boom ] but when it comes to real  slam  unless on a very  large panel you end up with a very sad[ thonk!]
I may have to blend the two to get the best of both worlds ,we will have  to see?
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bobloblob

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #455 on: 7 Nov 2009, 11:38 PM »
Sedge,

3M claims the tape that ZYGADR recommended early in this thread is heat-resistant, so that is still probably best for exciter-to-panel gluing.  If you are just trying to mate two solid surfaces where there is little sheer force, maybe this is a place where superglue will work.  Don't know how resistant most super glues are to heat, but I suspect they do well, and the glue line can be quite thin.  In fact, the thinner the glue line is (without squeezing it all out of the joint) the more resisant to sheer force and tearing it will be.

I am happy to hear that you are playing around with bass augmentation.  I have noticed that most subs don't seem to have that "slam" that you mention.  That's why horn subs began to interest me.  The ones I have heard have the "slam" factor, which I interpret as dynamics.  What I am hoping for, though, is that the dipole sub configuration of Martin King's will integrate well with these panels and give that slam.  He uses 18 inch high Q (and inexpensive) woofers.  I am also hoping that large panels can be stacked on top of these.  In the best of possible worlds, these panels could be run full-range without filtering, with the subs coming in at the very bottom to add depth and power.  If not, maybe a lower crossover, say at 100 or 150, will keep the panels happy.  I really wish I had the time and money to play around with these now, but it will have to wait.
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BowerR64

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #456 on: 8 Nov 2009, 10:33 AM »
What i want is to have good midrange and high end. I guess i will wait and try them see if they are bright enoug for me before i order the tweeters.

If they sound ok i want to mount them on my side walls near the front of the room and the back then use the tweeters to direct the higher end twards the listening position if that will work?

I thought about wedging one side as well  like 1-2" that would lift it and position the face of the panel twards the seating position.
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captainjack115

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #457 on: 8 Nov 2009, 03:52 PM »
Depending on panel size, weight, stiffness and amounts of damping in the panel, my plywood panel seems to go from 20 k to 250 htz in pretty much nxt mode. Below this I am sure it is a piston. As a contrast I tried Foamcore again (as the sound was dull and boomy). [/b]

Oddly, I use 20"X30" black foam core to conduct tests, using just one exciter per channel. Near field pink noise is pretty flat from 30 to 16,000.

Placing the board on the floor causes an immediate drop in bass below 60 hz. The boards are not cut off at the corners, but bass was kind off buzzy and not clean. Mounting the boards along the long sides directly in line with the exciter produces clean and deep bass. I have four dozen exciters and plan to expand my prototypes to 24"X72" and run 8 exciters per board. They will be mounted on the long sides as in the small version. Before I do that, I'll sprinkle some salt on the front surface of the 20"X30" single exciter board and run a sine wave sweep for examination of the wave pattern. A bit "Caveman" perhaps, but I think there's something useful to be learned in doing so.

Far field pink noise tests are very interesting! It makes virtually no difference in spectrum analyzer readings where the microphone is placed. Chaos of the bending waves coming off the front and rear of the panels seems to even things out. This may account for the stereo image to remain intact throughout the listening area.

Most curious!!!!

This technique delves into areas that are not entirely charted (even by NXT).

I think if we persevere, we will find what works and what doesn't work. I know from experience that pure science does not always work as expected. I have considerable technical background, but a lot of Thomas Edison too!
Nobody likes to waste time and money only to have their efforts dashed to the ground in failure. We have a challenge here and in my opinion it's worth pursuing. We may not get the results we hope for right away, but half the fun is in the tweaking.

I for one, love a challenge!!!!
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usp1

Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #458 on: 8 Nov 2009, 04:01 PM »
Depending on panel size, weight, stiffness and amounts of damping in the panel, my plywood panel seems to go from 20 k to 250 htz in pretty much nxt mode.

Sedge,

Is your plywood panel 3-ply baltic birch or something else? Am I understanding you correctly that you can get 250-20K from the panel at the same time. Or is it that it is possible to get freq in that range but not all at the same time.
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BowerR64

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Re: NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
« Reply #459 on: 8 Nov 2009, 07:08 PM »
For some of you guys that have played around with these before what does the size change?

Smokinjoe used what i think he said a 12"X12" if i change the demensions a little to make it more rectangle what would this do to the sound?

I would think the smaller the surface area the less low end?

I have some little kenwood rear speakers that are 5X7 X5 deep ide like to replace these with some panels. THese dont get much bass at all but the midrange and highs i want to keep just lose the big speaker.

It would be cool if i could replace it with a picture, or what appears to be a picture with a frame and stuff.
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