[Brian Bunge]

I would like to know if there is any interest in a subwoofer that I have come up with with some input from Dan Wiggins at Adire Audio.  What I've come up with is a 14" cube-sized enclosure using a 10" driver from Adire with 18mm of Xmax and XBL^2 motor technology.  This sub also includes a 150W amp.  While 150W does not sound like much power, this driver is 3dB more efficient than the Shiva and therefore does not require much power.  Dan has tested this sub against the Adire Audio Rava and says that both the frequency response and SPL levels are within roughly 1/10th dB from 20Hz on up with a 10% THD limit.  

Pricing will be around $600 each for finishes in oak, maple, cherry, and walnut veneers.  Other veneers are available as well; many for the same price.  The more exotic veneers will obviously require an upcharge based on the individual sheet prices.  Custom stains are also available.

So, any interest in such an animal?

[JackStraw]

I would like to know if there is any interest in a subwoofer that I have come up with with some input from Dan Wiggins at Adire Audio.  What I've come up with is a 14" cube-sized enclosure using a 10" driver from Adire with 18mm of Xmax and XBL^2 motor technology.  This sub also includes a 150W amp.  While 150W does not sound like much power, this driver is 3dB more efficient than the Shiva and therefore does not require much power.  Dan has tested this sub against the Adire Audio Rava and says that both th ...

It sounds like a pretty finished version of the Micro WMD Kit that Kevin at DIY Cable will soon be launching. Note, he's going with a more powerful amp.

See http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6733.msg57645#57645&highlight=micro+wmd#57645

I'm sure that you'll get some interest, but you have to wonder how many offerings with such a similar design the market can support...

Good luck.



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[Brian Bunge]

It sounds like a pretty finished version of the Micro WMD Kit that Kevin at DIY Cable will soon be launching. Note, he's going with a more powerful amp.

See http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6733.msg57645#57645&highlight=micro+wmd#57645

I'm sure that you'll get some interest, but you have to wonder how many offerings with such a similar design the market can support...

Good luck.
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Jack,

Thanks for the feedback.  Yes, I'd say that it's probably similar to the kit that Kevin is selling.  I ran across his post about this kit literally the day before I completed the finish on my test box, which I'll post pics of later this evening if I get the time.  I too thought about using this amp but after much talk with Dan Wiggins I chose the 150W amp.  He basically feels that 200W or more is overkill for this driver.  And since he obviously has more intimate knowledge of this driver than I do at this time, I took his advice.  The fact that the driver is 3dB more efficient than a Shiva means it does not need as much power to get similar SPL levels.

I'd also like to point out that my sub a finished design in which the amp was modified to work with this specific driver in this specific enclosure.  I am not trying to take a thing away from Kevin here as I have the utmost respect for him based on what I've read here and elsewhere, but unless he's modifying the amp he's simply offering a driver with a generic amp and enclosure.  There's nothing wrong with that, but what I am offering is a completed sub with the customer's choice of finishes.  As far as I know, there are very few internet direct companies that offering such a product.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide me with some feedback.

[Carlman]

I'm in the market for a musical sub.  I've already decided and commited to Kevin's.  But, as a customer to this type of product I see the biggest differences being that Kevin's 1) is a kit that I have to assemble and 2, he offers one finish choice (black).

If I had more disposable income and didn't want to deal with a little DIY, the technology behind the one Brian's offering would make it a top choice.  I like the idea of being able to choose a different finish.  And, I feel certain it'll look very nice.  However, I haven't seen it so, I don't really know.

However, I think getting this into someone's hands to hear is as (if not more) important than any other marketing possibility.  If it's a good or great design and compares well on paper, that's Ok but.... if someone says it sounds great I'd be more inclined to put it on my short list... if I get to hear it, I would immediately make the decision to buy it.

Those are my thoughts on the matter... use them as you see fit.

[JackStraw]

Jack,

Thanks for the feedback.  Yes, I'd say that it's probably similar to the kit that Kevin is selling.  I ran across his post about this kit literally the day before I completed the finish on my test box, which I'll post pics of later this evening if I get the time.  I too thought about using this amp but after much talk with Dan Wiggins I chose the 150W amp.  He basically feels that 200W or more is overkill for this driver.  And since he obviously has more intimate knowledge of this driver than I do  ...

Lots of great points, Brian. I certainly believe you on the amp choice -- I didn't mean to suggest that a straight PE kit substitution would be better than your design.

Like Carlman, I'm in the the market for a musical sub. We're lucky to have so many great options. I'm eager to see what Adire will be doing with their own driver as well...

[hayden]

Brian,
The finishes might be enough to persuade people to pick your offering over the others.  Some people would be happy with a utilitarian finish, such as the ones mentioned.  Creative Sound Solutions and RAW Acoustics have similar offerings, don't they?  Good luck in your ventures,
JP

[Brian Bunge]

Carlman,

Well, you aren't that far from Rutledge.  I already have plans to send the sub to a couple of people to audition anyway.  I will say that the finish is not one of my better ones.  I built the box using scrap birch ply (which is extremely rigid, BTW) with solid poplar corners.  I used some antique maple stain that did not come out very nice, IMHO, and therefore I'm not overly proud of the finish.  Some people who have seen it in person have liked it, but I don't.  But like I said, it was really a one off type of enclosure that I will not be doing again as it was WAY too much labor for the price I am selling the completed sub.

Jack,

I do understand that you were not trying to imply anything concerning the amp.  I just wanted to point out what I felt were the differences between Kevin's kit, at least as far as my knowledge is of the kit, and my sub which was designed around the actual driver, box, and amp that were being used.

Hayden,

So far, the only kits I am aware of from RAW or CSS use the gloss black cabinets.  I do know that Al has done some veneered cabinets but I most of the work I've seen of his has been with textured black painted cabinets.  I've done some of the textured black cabinets myself.  One sub had this finish with a solid cherry top that I built for a customer in NYC.  The cherry looked great.  The textured black didn't impress me much.  It's great for a low cost finish, but I hope to cater to more discriminating customers.

[Brian Bunge]

I thought I'd post a picture of the sub for all those interested.

[satfrat]

They say a picture's worth a thousand words Brian. VERY nice looking sub. I wish I needed one as a sub like yours in a med. oak finish would match up with my Lorelei's nicer than my standard black Velodyne. Mmmm, I do have 4 LFE outlets on my Sunfire,,, Regards, Robin

[Brian Bunge]

Robin,

Thank you very much!  You know, for the price of your Velodyne you could probably get a couple of my subs!

[jackman]

Brian,
Great looking sub.  I absolutely believe there is a market for a sub with this performance at the pricepoint you reference.  If I wasn't building a sub at the moment (pain in the neck, wish I hadn't started) I would be giving you a call to place an order.   I also wish you would have mentioned this when I called you a couple weeks ago.  My friend wound up getting a Rava and he really likes it.  The Rava is very good with HT and more than decent on music, but your sub is smaller and would appear to be more musical.  

Best of luck!

Jack

[Brian Bunge]

Jack,

Was that you that called me a few weeks back talking about giving yourself a sub for Christmas?  We were discussing the merits of sealed vs. ported enclosures I believe?  If that was you, great talking to you!  If not, then I'm totally brain dead and don't remember our conversation.  The one thing I plan on working on for the New Year is remembering names.  If it's in print I'm great, and I'm great with faces.  But if I have a single phone conversation with someone then I'm usually toast.  I have to work on that.

What sub are you building?  I'm not trying to influence you (not really anyway!) but if it's really that much trouble you could always sell the parts if you feel like you're either in over your head or just realize it's more work than you want to fool with.  That'd probably cover half the costs of this sub.

Also, this sub is very close to the Rava from a Qtc standpoint.  IIRC, the Rava has a Qtc=.68 while this one is right at .7.  You might hear a slight difference if you did a side by side comparison, but otherwise room interactions will be much more of an issue than such a slight deviation in Qtc.

[jackman]

Hi Brian,

Yes it was me and you are very close on the details.  The sub was for a friend whose wife was thinking about getting him a B*se system for Christmas.  I steered her away and discussed several options with you, including your new metals and some of the really cool speakers you have on your site.  He had never purchased anything internet direct and was a bit reluctant.  I provided a bunch of links to several sites (including yours, Kevin's and others).  He wound up getting the Rava and is now sold on internet direct companies and the value they represent.  Now that he's sold on the value, I've suggested that he try your new Metals with a Panasonic digital receiver (replacing his older Sony model).  He will be calling you after he returns from a holiday in France (his wife is from France).  

Thanks for the offer on the sub.  It's not a question of ability, it's just lazyness.  My father is a carpenter (retired) and is coming over this afternoon to help me.  The cabinet work is already started.  I destroyed the box it was shipped in so there would be no turning back.  I've got the poly glue, driver, amp, and screws and have all of the parts cut and ready to assemble.   The next part is optional since it's not your product (I bought hte amp and driver over a year ago and have only started building the cabinet):  how much stuffing do I need for a three cubic foot sealed box?  Also, the woofer, SCC300 has two sets of binding posts (dual voice coils?), do I need to connect both or only one?  Can I attach both sets together with jumpers?  

Thanks!
Jack

[JackStraw]

I thought I'd post a picture of the sub for all those interested.

Very nice. No debate that this will sell, especially with finish options. More questions:

Will there be a grill?

How will this driver will perform in larger cabinets?

Do the amps have full range line out for daisy chaining, so that you can add another sub later? It seems like one should be enough for most people, but daisy chaining gives a lot of setup flexibility.

[Brian Bunge]

Jackman,

That's right.  I remember talking about the Panasonic digital receivers.  They look like cool little items.  I can get them from my distributor but it looks like some of the internet prices are cheaper than dealer pricing.

Concerning the SCC300 driver, with a 3ft^3 enclosure (I assume sealed?) if you use approx. 3lbs. of polyfill then you should have a Qtc around .65.  I looked at the specs on the driver and it shows a nominal impedance of 8 ohms and there's no mention of it being dual voice coils.  Make sure that if there are 2 sets of binding posts on the driver that both have tinsel leads connected to them.  If so, then it is dual voice coil.  I'd call SonicCraft and check to see if the driver is dual 8 ohm coils or dual 4 ohm coils.  If dual 4 ohm coils then you'll need to wire them in series to get an 8 ohm load.  If dual 8 ohm coils you can wire in parallel for a 4 ohm load.  Assuming you're using a plate amp, a 4 ohm load is pretty much minimum load you should use.

JackStraw,

As much as I hate grills I guess there isn't much way around not having one.  I'm toying with the idea of a round grill that pressure fits over the rubber gasket on the driver.  I haven't tried it yet though.

In a larger cabinet you'll obviously get a lower Qtc.  If you go with say, 1.5ft^3 internally (about a 16" cube) you end up with a Qtc roughly equivalent to .64.

The amp does have L/R low and high level inputs and outputs.  On the high level outs (speaker level) there is a fixed 125Hz, 6dB/octave filter but there is no filter on the low level outs.  The amp also has a fully adjustable 12dB/octave XO between 40-160Hz and a 0/180 phase switch.

[Brian Bunge]

For those interested, I've got a close-mic'd frequency response graph of the new sub, which I'm currently calling the RAD10 for lack of a better name.  The sub has an F3 of 31Hz, with an F6 right at 28Hz.  If it were corner loaded in a small/medium sized room I have not doubt that it would be fairly flat to 25Hz or slightly lower.

[DanWiggins]

Brian,

Looks great!  Really a sweet unit...

A few comments about this driver/box thing...  Brian's offering a fully developed/tweaked/custom solution, with a great finish, and one of our OEM-only drivers.  Kevin's looking to use some existing cabinet solutions with a custom driver (not the same thing as Brian runs).

It really comes down to a simple choice: want a ready-to-go, all finished sub with great response (from his measurements, I'd expect corner loading to get the F3 down to the 22-23 Hz range), then contact Brian and get a quality product from a quality guy.

Want to build your own, with a different driver, different approach, and from another quality player?  Contact Kevin at DIY Cable.

Both approaches are well-suited to the market, and both have their purposes.  Well done guys!

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

[JackStraw]

For those interested, I've got a close-mic'd frequency response graph of the new sub, which I'm currently calling the RAD10 for lack of a better name.  The sub has an F3 of 31Hz, with an F6 right at 28Hz.  If it were corner loaded in a small/medium sized room I have not doubt that it would be fairly flat to 25Hz or slightly lower.

Nice response curve. Where was the XO set for this test?

Do you have any more info on ETA and/or finish options?

[Brian Bunge]

Jack,

The XO on the sub amp was set wide open, at 160Hz, but the XO in my receiver was activated and is fixed at 80Hz.  That's why it's 3dB down at 80Hz.

ETA is right now, allowing a couple of weeks to build once an order is placed.  Standard finishes are oak, maple, cherry, an walnut.  I'll do any other finish anyone wants, assuming they are willing to pay the upcharge for any strange or exotic veneers.

[JackStraw]

Jack,

The XO on the sub amp was set wide open, at 160Hz, but the XO in my receiver was activated and is fixed at 80Hz.  That's why it's 3dB down at 80Hz.

ETA is right now, allowing a couple of weeks to build once an order is placed.  Standard finishes are oak, maple, cherry, an walnut.  I'll do any other finish anyone wants, assuming they are willing to pay the upcharge for any strange or exotic veneers.

Thanks for the info... I didn't see it listed at your web site so I thought that I would ask.

Did you get the grill situation figured out? I have ACI Emerald On-walls that have a magnetic grill attachment, which might be an interesting approach for this sub.

I'm interested in a black finish. I guess that we could stain one of the standard veneers black, but what would you suggest? I thought about PMing this to you but figured that others would have the same question.