residual hum from cornet2 v1

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PatOMalley

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residual hum from cornet2 v1
« on: 26 May 2009, 01:35 am »
I have some noise that is just above listening level. hum.
it rises and falls with the volume level.
it occurs when i touch tube v1 but alleviates when I touch v1 and chassis at same time.

i was thinking of using a tube shield but before i mare the fine aesthetics i was wondering if this could be cause by the Audionote resistors which are magnetic.

Can those input resistors cause v1 to hum?

kenm

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #1 on: 26 May 2009, 10:30 am »
Hi - I had the same problem with my Cornet. Last weekend I installed a new power outlet with an earth and the problem disappeared. So I would check the mains earth connection first.

PatOMalley

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #2 on: 28 May 2009, 11:48 pm »
kenm,

removed audionote resistors and replaced /w Takman. New receptacle /w ground. level of hum still there but not as much when I touch v1. i moved the preamp to the top shelf /w the solid state amp on the bottom. it has to be the field around the preamp but i can't move the preamp anywhere else until i get another rack.

i have two NOS 5751 tubes in the mail. maybe dropping gain at v1 and v2 will drop the hum? also two tube shields for v1 and v2.

hotrod

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #3 on: 29 May 2009, 12:47 am »

Pat,
 If I remember right, with the 5751 tubes installed I got very different voltages at the test points on the board.Thinking this would mess with the RIAA equal. I put the 12ax7's back in.
 If you check the voltages with the 5751's in place,let me know what you think.
 

hagtech

Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #4 on: 31 May 2009, 07:05 pm »
Check chassis grounding.  Make sure all pieces of chassis get tied down (electrically).  Might have to do same with transformer bells (they're supposed to have shield wire internally).

jh

PatOMalley

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #5 on: 31 May 2009, 08:56 pm »
Jim,

I am using the Lansing chassis and all pieces are in contact, no paint. I ran ground wire form the transformer bell out to the ground post, etc.

Not sure if I explicitly mentioned this but the preamp gets noisier and quieter if I move it around. It is just that I can't move it off the rack, as yet.

Something I have not really thought of yet is the output capacitor is bypassed with those Russian Teflon caps with the cover that needs to be insulated. I did cover them with tape ....

And the hum is above the listening level using a Denon DL103 but if I try a high output MM then you get hum down into the listening level.

I jammed those PRP resistors in there, maybe one cracked at the cover [?], and I may go back and replace them.

Thanks for the suggestion., though. I will keep walking through it and will trip over the issue when I find it.

PatOMalley

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more about that hum
« Reply #6 on: 2 Jun 2009, 12:31 am »
I tied the shield wire down to ground post inside chassis. [it's easy to identify where that wire is by the washer] It did cut down on some hum pushing it higher above listening level but it is still there.



I added tube shield but no effect from them. [I didn't tie them to ground yet.] But I like them for that Vader look.



I gotta get a new rack. That's all there is to it.

What with all this whining about the hum I want to take a moment and say that even with this piddly hum issue my analog record experience has never been as great. This preamp keeps getting better as it burns in.

Music through this thing is incredibly wide, deep, dynamic, vibrant, etc ad nauseum.

Old records do not even annoy in the least - music taking the serious forefront with noise being a quaint addition.

Just trying for a little balance, is all.

tubesforever

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #7 on: 6 Jun 2009, 07:55 am »
I noticed on mine that if a tube was good but not new, I could end up with some hum.  I like to used the best tubes possible on my  Clarinet and Cornet 2.  Right now I am getting into plinths but this summer should be a good time to look for more 50's Mullards, Tele's, or new "Mullard's" that are not Mullards at all....

I take that ground wire down internally with the other wires in the loom.  This goes straight to the phono RCA input ground post.  My IEC earth ground goes to that same piece.  Are you using that RCA input ground post as your star grounding location? 

I had to do that in order to get mine as quiet as it is today.  So quiet, in fact I cannot hear it at all.

Pat I totally agree with you about space and racks.  If the Cornet 2 is too close to other power transfomers or stray fields then evil can happen.

PatOMalley

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #8 on: 6 Jun 2009, 10:27 pm »
The 12AX7s are Tung Sol, nice and new. So I just got a pair of JAN Philips 5751. With both of them in they caused a lower midrange bloat. I have just one in the v1 spot and the tung Sol back in v2 and the sound is not as vibrant as with both tun gols but there is a heavier tone now. So maybe I should get a set of TAD 7025s. The TAD tubes seem to have a heavier grunge but going back to a 12ax7 would bring the RIAA back. The TADs would be new as well.

Mullards would thicken the tone as well but man the Tung Sols are so lively with no loss of bass or weight. Maybe just put the other Tun Sol back in and forget it. Yeah, I was only after lessening the HUM but who cares about that anyway when it is so trivial and is really related to where the damp preamp is. If I pick the thing up and move it around and can do a Jimi thing. It is definitely outside influences which are corrupting it. If it doesn't watch out it will end up in the juvenile audio center.

The ground wire does go down internally but I ran it out so you could see it. I like to see it like that. I think it looks cool. <- this coming from a 51 year old married man with 3 kids. Pathetic, ain't it?

Heck bebbe, I may go git me some of them Tung Soils with the gold pins. I like 'em that much. The 12au7 is a Holland BugleBoy from the Danes.

tubesforever

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #9 on: 7 Jun 2009, 07:48 am »
Pat, first off I don't think this is the cause of your hum, however it is easy to see if the transformer housing is creating your ground loop. 

In my opinion, it is best not to take the transformer ground to the case and then to the earth ground.  The case could act as a loop.  Without the rubber grommets the transformer would ground to the case work.  With the rubber grommets you get more vibration or resonance control but you also introduce an area of ground loop opportunities.

I take the wire going to that grounding lug, remove the eyelet, strip it back, splice it to a longer wire and go from the transformer back to the star ground directly.  I am not grounding the transformer's case since that is handled by all the hardware so why add additional looping opportunities? 

In my line of thinking, I desire just a single lead from the transformer ground back to the earth ground with no other potential grounding planes.

You might want to try this since it is so darn easy to try.  Simply make sure the wires don't touch the bell or any other chassis piece before it hits the star ground point.

Cheers!

PatOMalley

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #10 on: 7 Jun 2009, 02:45 pm »
Got it, Jim.
I will give that a try.

EDIT - That was it. I soldered the wire to the green that goes to the chassis ground and it pushed the hum to way above listening level. The tip on bringing that shield ground to chassis should be added to the manual, don't you think. There may be several people out there with hum issues that are connected to that.

Thanks a lot, Jim. Not for the headache of taking a finished Cornet apart and all the taking care to destroy it in the process. But for pointing out the issue. Now that I remember it and after looking back over the tip sheet you sent YOU DID already tell me to do that as part of the build.  :duh:  :oops:  :roll:

Did I say thanks?

« Last Edit: 7 Jun 2009, 09:36 pm by PatOMalley »

tubesforever

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #11 on: 7 Jun 2009, 10:19 pm »
Pat fixed this wire issue and the hum is much lower now.  I am glad it was this simple. 

If you have a Clarinet or Cornet with hum you will want to try this.  The procedure is to remove the back bell, take the wire going to the lower left bolt (the one with the star lock washer) and cut off the connector.  Strip this back, solder or crimp on a longer wire making sure to wrap the joint so it doesn't short something. 

Take this transformer ground wire directly to your star grounding point you selected for your Cornet. 

On mine I use the RCA ground lug as the star location.  The shortest ground wire is the green and yellow wire going back to the IEC power connector earth ground position. 

Every ground on my Hagermans go directly to that RCA ground lug star point.

My Hagermans are dead silent.  In fact my Clarinet, Cornet 2 and Piccolo are quieter than any other equipment I have ever owned. 

Here is a picture of my Clarinet.  On the right you can see the 8 Vampire direct gold plated OFC chassis connectors.  I love these pieces.  Then you see the RCA ground lug.  I have 5 ground wires coming out there.  One goes to the IEC plug earth ground connection (green and yellow), one to the tranformer (you can see the wire coming from underneath the board), one goes to the brass fuel rod I use to actuate the 4 pole source switch, one goes to the earth ground lug on the PCB and the other is going to the chassis itself. 

In fact that wire is tied back to the front panel where the switches are mounted.  If I have accumulated any static walking across my rug, I want it draining smartly back to the earth ground rather than finding some easier pathway to my circuit. 

This is helpful in high static regions such as Reno. 



This is a great way to handle the grounding on your Hagerman pieces. 

BTW if any of you out there are pulling off those 4 bolts to expose the wiring under the bell covers you have nothing at all to worry about.  Nothing falls out or comes out of adjustment. 

When you finish splicing the wire, don't forget to switch the nuts and bolts so the nuts point out back.

ScottRT showed me that trick and it looks a hole lot nicer. 

I painted my bells with Hammerite charcoal gray paint just for a nice twist.  It looks like silver paint in the pics but it is actually a nice subdued charcoal color that matches well with the stainless steel handles I use to protect the tubes up top. 

This is also a recommendation ScottRT made when I visited his home a couple years ago.  Thank's Scott!  That experience has dramatically improved my system.   



Are these Hagerman projects fun or what?

Pat I agree that Jim should probably modify the owners manual to have each owner define a star grounding position and take every ground wire directly to that point. 

Other than the RCA grounds touching the chassis, these seem to be the two most important points in getting the Hagerman silent.

And man are these things quiet!

PatOMalley

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #12 on: 7 Jun 2009, 10:57 pm »
I live on Roxborough now, the highest point in Philly - where all the radio and cell towers are. They are right down the road near the shopping center. Great if you own a radio or cell phone. Bad for phono.




http://www.fybush.com/site-031002.html

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DeadFish

Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #13 on: 9 Jun 2009, 01:55 pm »
Hey Guys, thanks a lot for discussing this!!!
THIS was the source of the only hum I had going in my Clarinet, and for which the most part I ignored (but I was still pissed about.)
Don't know how many 'touch ups' I tried on solder joints, but I was long past my point of frustration. :duh:
Much, much obliged, as it didn't take much to implement yesterday and I'm enjoying the Clarinet again like I just built it!
Funny thing is, my Cornet II was always quiet as a tomb.  I might do the same thing anyway, just 'because'.  :wink:

Thanks again!
Best Regards,
DeadFish

johnmarkp

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #14 on: 13 Jun 2009, 03:08 pm »
The Clarinet I built had a hum problem as well.  Did the fix talked about here and that took care of it.  Thanks everyone.

John

PatOMalley

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Re: residual hum from cornet2 v1
« Reply #15 on: 1 Aug 2009, 08:46 pm »


I still had a bit of hum even with all the shielding and grounding.
Adding a pair of CMOB-2S steel core 1:1 @ 600ohm output transformers between the C2 and Clarinet both increased a sense of presence and rid hum completely. All I get now is tube rush. Nice tube rush. And the sense of presence brought by these transformers is worth the small cost and effort.

I found a nice NOS Radio Shack chassis that needed a little internal bracing but works out as a stylish mate to the Hagerman stuff.



Now I can relax.

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