Topic: Shuguang Treasure 'Black Bottle' 6CA7Z and Genalex KT-77's (Read 9717 times)

cryoparts · « **on:** 30 Jan 2009, 09:09 PM »

Hello everyone,

Well, I'll be the guinea pig. I posted a while ago when I discovered these tubes and it seems that no one here has tried them, so...I have a matched quad of the Shuguang Treasure 'Black Bottle' 6CA7-Z, EL-34 on the way from Grant Fidelity.

I am going to run these in an Eastern Electric M520, which I currently have winged C's installed. I have a few other sets of EL34's around that I can compare the "Treasure's" to as well, but I am most interested in comparing them to the Genalex KT77 as this set of tubes is reported to give phenomenal performance in the M520 according to Bill O'Connell at Morningstar Audio. Bill is a virtual font of arcane tube knowledge, tube trivia and is the authority when it comes to knowing what tubes sound good in his gear.

So, anyway, my plan is to burn in and try both sets of tubes before cryo to get a handle on their sound 'raw'. I will then cryo them, burn them in again and listen to them after cryo to see what changes take place and document the differences I hear when these tubes are installed in the M520.

Is anyone interested in the results of this experiment, except me? If not, I don't mind talking to myself...

Disclaimer's:

I have no business ties to Grant Fidelty or Shuguang tubes. In fact, I didn't even really know about Grant Fidelity until a couple weeks ago when I found a link to their site from the Shuguang site indicating they are the North American distributor for the Shuguang "Treasure" series of tubes.

I do have a business relationship with the importer of the Genalex tubes as I have access to any of the tubes that New Sensor offers, however, I haven't really sold anything that they offer as tubes are not really a focus of my business. I mainly got set up with them so that I could offer/upgrade the stock tubes to the sweet JJ and EH gold pin tubes in some headphone amps that I am working on. I suppose, sometime in the future I may offer cryo'd tubes, but I have no firm plans to do so at this time as there seems to be many others already filling this niche.

In any event, this will be a fairly long process, but I thought I would post the results here for posterity. Of course, all of the conclusions will be my opinion and may not jibe with anyone else's, but that's part of what makes this hobby fun. I just thought this might be a fun exercise and perhaps add to our collective knowledge...or not, ha!

Peace,

Lee

EDIT--Clean up content, grammar and spelling, doh!

carusoracer · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 Jan 2009, 10:24 PM »

Lee,

Sounds good! Looking forward to your impressions as I'm very curious about the same sets of tubes>
You Lucky Dog-

I like the look of both tubes.
Agreed, Bill is a great source and all around great guy

Audioclyde · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Jan 2009, 11:36 PM »

Lee,

I will be most interested in your reactions. I've used both the GL reissue KT88's and now the reissue KT66's in my Cary amp. Both the GL reissues are great IMHO; I'm more of an EL34 guy though that likes a warm mid, so I'm continuing to burn in the KT66's. Meanwhile I keep wondering about the reissue KT77's!

It will be interesting to see how these premium Shuguang's compare as well.

Thanks for the effort!

Randy

cryoparts · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 03:29 AM »

I was very fortunate dog, indeed, I got my order in just at the right time!

Ian (Grant Fidelity) informed me earlier today that the matched quad I am getting is one of only four new 'Export Quality' 6CA7-Z quads outside of Shuguang's factory at this time and the other three quads are already spoken for. Maybe he'll chime in to fill us in what "Export Quality' means, I'm assuming they are the cream of the crop.

Don't fear though, he did mention that they have more on order and should be restocked in a couple of weeks. I think I saw that he is running a group buy here on AC, so anyone who wants any of the 'Treasure' tubes should probably get in on that to save some dough. I would order from Grant Fidelity without any hesitation, my dealings with Ian and Rachel have been extremely positive and first rate thus far.

Mr. Eastern Electric (Bill from Morningstar Audio) is a great resource and an even finer gentleman! I'm glad that he took pity on a small company (me) a few years ago and loaned us some gear for a show, he is one of the best in the biz.

Peace,

Lee

Quote from: carusoracer on 30 Jan 2009, 10:24 PM

Lee,

Sounds good! Looking forward to your impressions as I'm very curious about the same sets of tubes>
You Lucky Dog- I like the look of both tubes.
Agreed, Bill is a great source and all around great guy

cryoparts · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 03:35 AM »

It should be a fun learning experience. It's kind of nice to just be a "normal" audio nut once in a while and just compare things for the heck of it, instead of worrying about the day to day minutiae of running a small audio company.

Peace,

Lee

Quote from: Audioclyde on 30 Jan 2009, 11:36 PM

Lee,

I will be most interested in your reactions. I've used both the GL reissue KT88's and now the reissue KT66's in my Cary amp. Both the GL reissues are great IMHO; I'm more of an EL34 guy though that likes a warm mid, so I'm continuing to burn in the KT66's. Meanwhile I keep wondering about the reissue KT77's!

It will be interesting to see how these premium Shuguang's compare as well.

Thanks for the effort!

Randy

bunnyma357 · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 03:40 AM »

Grant Fidelity is offering a Group Buy for all tubes in the Treasure series, so I'm sure many will be interested in your opinion on the 6CA7-Z.

Jim C

cryoparts · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 05:24 AM »

Quote from: bunnyma357 on 31 Jan 2009, 03:40 AM

Grant Fidelity is offering a Group Buy for all tubes in the Treasure series, so I'm sure many will be interested in your opinion on the 6CA7-Z.

Jim C

That is good to know, I just found the post about the group buy, cool!

Peace,

Lee

cryoparts · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Feb 2009, 07:36 PM »

Update. The "Treasure" tube are on the way from Canada. As soon as I get them, I'll install them and get them running in. I think Grant Fidelity recommends 300 hours, so I'll certainly follow their recommendations. I can report what I am hearing while they are breaking in if anyone is interested.

My plan:

Install the Treasure tubes, let them break in, listen to them after break in and then cryo them.
While the Treasure tubes are in cryo, I will install the Genalex KT-77's and let them break in, report what I hear and then cryo them.
While the KT-77's are in cryo, I will re-install the Treasure tubes, let them break in, listen and report.
Finally, I will re-install the Genalex, let them break in and report.

So, this will take a while, but hopefully someone will get some benefit out of it.

Peace,

Lee

carusoracer · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Feb 2009, 12:57 AM »

Cool

pun intended

Please post results of your findings sounds like fun

richidoo · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Feb 2009, 01:54 AM »

I'm interested in your findings too. I have been considering trying both of these new tubes. I already tried EH-6CA7, JJ-KT77, SED-EL34, GT-E34Ls. The search continues. Thanks cryoparts.
Rich

cryoparts · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 01:32 AM »

I received a "care package" from my friends in Canada today! aa

Wow, these things are even nicer in person than the pictures convey. What a beautiful set of tubes!

Here are a few bad pics that I took with a sheet thrown over my dirty workbench to hide the mess, but you get the idea. The tube in the third picture is a Winged C, for size comparison.

I'll take some better pictures later with the Shugaung Treasure Series next to the Genalex KT-77's.

No sonic impressions yet. Hopefully I'll have time to listen later this evening.

Peace,

Lee

richidoo · « **Reply #11 on:** 8 Feb 2009, 03:06 AM »

Gorgeous! They are proud of their babies to paint them up like that.
Looking forward to your initial impressions... Have fun

Rich

cryoparts · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Feb 2009, 02:14 AM »

Got about 20-25 hours on the Shuguang Treasure Series tubes now. They were a little rough (spitty, forward, etc.) the first 5-10 hours, but have really started to mature the last 10-15 hours. They were much better sounding this morning than last night (I left the amp on all night and will probably leave it on for the duration of the test) and they have continued to improve throughout the day. Really starting to smooth out now.

I've been crazy busy building cables and havent had time to type up my all of my thoughts about their sound at this stage of their burn in, but I will say that already they are sounding pretty good and are showing great promise.

More as I get some extra time.

Peace,

Lee

cryoparts · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 01:20 AM »

Quick update. Amp has been on and running in for another day now, tubes are really starting to even out and the bass is tightening up. Sound is smoother than yesterday and I fully expect them to continue to smooth out (if these break in like most other tubes I have played with for 25+ years) over the next few days.

Inner detail is good, but not quite "there" yet. However, these tubes are still in their infancy.

Thus far, these are the most impressive EL34 variants I have tried while still this early in their life.

A few bad pics:

Very impressive thus far. Get in on the Grant Fidelity Group Buy before it ends...

Peace,

Lee

iGrant · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 02:18 PM »

Glad you are having fun with them. I've linked up this thread from our forum:
http://grantfidelity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=950

Rich, they aren't painted up, it is a special coating on the interior of the tube, according to Shuguang:

High Polymer Compound Carbon (HPCC) coating to maximize "secondary electron emission surpression" from the glass enclosure, in turn reduces internal noise generated from the vacuum tube. Don't ask, don't know, but next time at the factory will see if they will let me watch it being applied.

It reminds me of the results of Cryo treating a tube, except with a much higher quality tube than I have ever has cryo'd. Will be very interesting to see how Lee interprets the next stage of cryo treating the tubes. No one has a lot of time on any of these tubes yet. If you follow the link above you will find in the next thread some 300B-Z results compared to other 300B tubes.

Cheers,
Ian

richidoo · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 03:10 PM »

High polymer Carbon Compound, sounds like "black paint" to me.

I meant "painted up" as a euphemism for highly decorated, in color and shape, which they certainly are compared to my $20 EH 6ca7's. Looks good, as it should for the price. Thanks Ian, just pulling your leg.

I did not see the "group buy" cryo mentions on your website, only a 300b deal ending yesterday. Maybe post details on discounts in the Industry Talk section? It can't go here.

I'm especially interested in the inner detail of these tubes.
Thanks

mcullinan · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 03:20 PM »

They are way overpriced. They arent NOS and I just dont see why they should be so expensive.
They better best the best NOS out there for the price.
Mike

iGrant · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 03:32 PM »

Quote from: richidoo on 11 Feb 2009, 03:10 PM

High polymer Carbon Compound, sounds like "black paint" to me. I meant "painted up" as a euphemism for highly decorated, in color and shape, which they certainly are compared to my $20 EH 6ca7's. Looks good, as it should for the price. Thanks Ian, just pulling your leg.

I did not see the "group buy" cryo mentions on your website, only a 300b deal ending yesterday. Maybe post details on discounts in the Industry Talk section? It can't go here.

I'm especially interested in the inner detail of these tubes.
Thanks

Rich, PM me for group buy info, the post is in Industry Ads. The coating isn't a simple paint or a paint that I know of. When I got the the first sets of tubes (330B-Z), the coating wasn't complete, it had pooled to one side, once run for a bit it expanded into place, very cool to see it happen, it's alive

type thing. There are 60 extra process steps in these tubes over the standard Shuguangs. There is another thread or 2 in the Industry Section where it will be more appropriate for me to yap about them.

Cheers,
Ian

DavidS · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 04:25 PM »

Interesting thread. A couple of questions:

1. what is the typical experience with burn in time on tubes, when do they stop changing - is it 50 hours, 100 hours, 200 hours. I am burning in some of Ian's 300bs and have about 60 hours on them but haven't noticed much change past 35 hours when they seemed to get a whole lot more dynamic and smooth.

2. I have read mixed reviews on cryoed tubes. Would be interesting to hear similarly broken in stock EL34s and cryoed EL34s. Will look forward to Lee's impressions as he reports on both.

David

iGrant · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 05:08 PM »

Hi David,

The TJ 300B/SE's seem to break in pretty fast, as I stated in my ongoing review which I think you have seen, the TJ's sounded so good with even 15 hours on them I went forward with my comparisons. On most tubes 100 hours is plenty for burn in, but it is hard to generalize due to the different materials used. All the people that have been testing the Shuguang's are still hearing big changes at even 200 hours, don't know if anyone has 300 hours yet on any of them. I'm sure there is still some more magic to come from your tubes, but you are likely hearing most of the magic now.

I did some posting on cryo treating tubes here on AudioCircle and in our forum. I like it, I hear it, but it is in the tweak category, which of course is always up for debate. I'm fortunate to have Morray James as a friend here in Calgary, who has spent a good part of his life doing cryo from it's infancy and Lee here of course can add his thoughts and expertise

Cheers,
Ian

Author Topic: Shuguang Treasure 'Black Bottle' 6CA7Z and Genalex KT-77's (Read 9717 times)