One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.

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Rudolf

One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« on: 23 Jan 2009, 12:12 am »
From intuition one might believe that a perfectly radiating full range source on a wide baffle would be the ideal dipole. Legions of wide range drivers mounted on barn door sized baffles seem to prove that. The contrary is true. The width of your baffle has to follow the radiated frequency range. Wide baffle for low frequencies, narrow baffle for high ones. Let me explain:

As a proof of concept let's first look at the Boxsim simulation of a 50x50 cm square baffle with a 1'' point source in the center. The picture shows the radiation pattern on axis (black), at 30? (red) and at 60? (green). You can perhaps recognize how it resembles Linkwitz' mathematical dipole radiation model in http://www.linkwitzlab.com/models.htm#A



Boxsim will even show the same polar distribution at 1130 Hz as Linkwitz had sketched here. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/2pt-src2.gif



You certainly will agree with me that this is no radiation pattern one would want to have.
For a second look let's take a baffle of 100x40 cm with the same 1'' source in the middle at 80 cm height:



It still looks usable up to 600 Hz, but not above. And the polar response still has bad patterns, for instance now at 1409 Hz: 



Now you will tell me that nobody will use a 1'' full range source in real life. How about an 8'' driver on that baffle:



Ouch. An 8'' driver doesn't radiate to the side above 1 kHz. We all know that large drivers don't radiate with their full cone at treble frequencies, but with the inner part only. How about an active cone diameter of 4'', like a big wizzer cone:



This isn't really better than our 1'' source. We are stuck. We need to reduce the baffle width to get the range above 1 kHz right. We try the 4'' cone on a 4'' wide baffle:



This looks really good up to 3 kHz. From there on we obviously need a smaller driver. Let's change the 4'' cone for a 1'' dome on the same baffle as before:



And again: At 5 kHz the baffle is too wide for the 1'' dome. We need an even narrower baffle. We try 2'':



This is as good as it gets. At least if you want symmetry in your radiation pattern.

If you dare, go back to the 4'' wide baffle and lift your 1'' dome to 95 cm height and move it to 2 cm from the left baffle edge. The radiation to the left side will be better than expected (compare to the same dome on the same baffle width in picture8 ) :



But radiation to the right side now is a mess (see right diagram).

OK, if you don't bother about off axis radiation, this would be the point to leave the discussion. For all others I would like to add some comments:

When you go through the diagrams again, you will find that problems always begin ABOVE the first dipole peak of the baffle - never below. You may have noticed that some very knowledgeable dipole designers take pains to keep the working range of their drivers below the corresponding baffle peak.

As we all know, the upper usable frequency limit of a driver is determined by its cone size. As a rule of thumb the baffle width should not exceed 2.2 times the cone diameter to keep the driver below the dipole peak.

All diagrams shown and all rules mentioned only apply as long as a driver radiates fully into half space. Most tweeters fail to do that at the highest frequencies - they don't ''see'' the width of the baffle. So you can take some liberties with the baffle width at the top of the frequency range.

I have concentrated on horizontal dispersion. I know that the vertical radiation pattern is important too, but discussing both at the same time would have been disturbing somehow.

Hopefully the horizontal facts alone are disturbing enough.  :?

Addendum: All sims were done with Boxsim www.boxsim.de, the simulation program for Visaton drivers and an ''ideal driver'' model (symmetrical radiation to front and back, no cone breakup, linear frequency response and impedance from 0 Hz to infinity). Simulation is for anechoic conditions (''mid air''). All SPL levels are relative and have no connection to real drivers.
« Last Edit: 12 Aug 2009, 10:23 am by Rudolf »

JeffB

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #1 on: 23 Jan 2009, 01:30 am »
Thanks Rudolf,

I have tried a 3" Tang Band above a 15" Warrior on an 18 inch baffle.
I had a feeling that the 3" driver might have needed a narrower baffle to smooth out its response.
This gives me some encouragement to try just that.

Graham Maynard

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #2 on: 23 Jan 2009, 08:18 am »
Maybe only LF drivers should have a baffle ?

What about the driver being on a tall strip which is driver width (or tapered) with rounded edges ?

Your pattern plots are the reason I fit foam fingers in front of a driver in order to diffuse and reshape the radiation pattern.

Of course the simulator program also is based upon an (incorrect) assumption that the acoustic centre of the driver is constantly positioned with frequency and centered on the baffle plane for both front and back.

gainphile2

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #3 on: 23 Jan 2009, 08:34 am »
Great write-up Rudof. If only I knew this a few months ago  :duh:

That is very true. The smoothest-sounding open baffle are those with narrow baffles. They have excellent FR and off-axis response. I used to slap drivers to 45cm baffles and while the low-freq was extended, the midrange sounds and measures peak-and dip. Very hard if not impossible to equalize.

Just look at Orion and NaO, they all use narrow baffles -- not entirely for aesthetics reasons I guess. My OB are now using slim baffle.



Unfortunately, if passive xo is desired, narrow baffles are almost impossible to get bass.

gainphile2

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #4 on: 23 Jan 2009, 08:45 am »
btw. my mind wanders... so what about the great Jamo 909? they are wide too.

well, quick look at the web and it reveals that they do not have smooth measurement at all. I never heard their sound, maybe anyone can comment?

http://www.regonaudio.com/Jamo909Measurements.html




Rudolf

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #5 on: 23 Jan 2009, 10:35 am »
The smoothest-sounding open baffle are those with narrow baffles. They have excellent FR and off-axis response. I used to slap drivers to 45cm baffles and while the low-freq was extended, the midrange sounds and measures peak-and dip. Very hard if not impossible to equalize.

Great to meet you at this point, gainphile. :thumb:
Actually it was your S7 that gave the last push for my write-up. When I saw your latest effort, I thought:
What great looks! And how well done from an acoustics point of view!
And indeed it is the midrange where things could be done worst for a dipole!

You already mentioned the Yamo 909. There is another measurement (at 45°) at regonaudio that reveals the 909s deficit even clearer:
http://www.regonaudio.com/Jamo909Measurements.html



I have tried to simulate the midrange situation of the 909 in Boxsim:



It really jumps to your face: You see the baffle-induced on-axis dip around 1kHz as well as the off-axis peak in that region. The explanation regonaudio gives to this situation is simply BS.

Quote
Unfortunately, if passive xo is desired, narrow baffles are almost impossible to get bass.
It takes some effort. As I believe Graham Maynard is going that route by "stacking" woofers on his OB. They are all active at low frequencies and Graham takes them off by lowpassing at different rising frequencies. Another method are H and U frames, of course.

JLM

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #6 on: 23 Jan 2009, 02:04 pm »
How would bipoles compare to this (apparent) dipole discussion?

Rudolf

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #7 on: 23 Jan 2009, 04:19 pm »
How would bipoles compare to this (apparent) dipole discussion?
It´s not the "ideal driver", but the 3" FRS8 fullrange. The baffle-induced SPL variations are much bigger for the dipole than for the bipole, that´s for sure:



Blue line on the right is for 90°. It´s 0 dB on the left diagram obviously. You can easily see that from 5 kHz up there is hardly any difference left between both variants.

lothar

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #8 on: 23 Jan 2009, 05:35 pm »
Hi all,
I want put my altec biflex 415c (http://www.voiceofthetheatre.com/images/412C.415C.1.jpg) in baffle.
So what should by size of the baffle and where I should place driver?
I would like this driver works from 200hz to 700-800hz.

Ooo I am newbie.


Best
L


AK

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #9 on: 23 Jan 2009, 06:12 pm »
Quote
We all know that large drivers don´t radiate with their full cone at treble frequencies, but with the inner part only.
is it really true?

Rudolf

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #10 on: 23 Jan 2009, 06:47 pm »
Quote
We all know that large drivers don´t radiate with their full cone at treble frequencies, but with the inner part only.
is it really true?

I´m not sure what you are trying to say. In the context of your quote I was talking about an 8" driver that should not beam at treble frequencies. Every pistonic cone of that size must start beaming at ~1 kHz. The diagram above your quoted sentence shows it. Without that context my sentence may be misleading, yes.

Rudolf

Rudolf

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #11 on: 23 Jan 2009, 07:15 pm »
I want put my altec biflex 415c (http://www.voiceofthetheatre.com/images/412C.415C.1.jpg) in baffle.
So what should by size of the baffle and where I should place driver?
I would like this driver works from 200hz to 700-800hz.

Putting those Altecs in OB is like taking your 911 to motocross races IMHO - a strange experience, but may be fun.
 
For the stated range the perfect baffle would be just as wide as the driver. Perhaps you could use it up to 1.5 kHz. The 415C should be between the woofer and the tweeter. If you place the tweeter at ear height you don´t have much choice for the placement of the Altec.

JeffB

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #12 on: 23 Jan 2009, 07:21 pm »
I know this writeup is for open baffles, but I am curious if the same response is true for boxed speakers.
There are some tapered boxes out there, but most are not.


Going back to the open baffle situation.
Is it still possible to effectively use my 3" Tang Band driver above my 15" Warrior.
If I mount the Tang Band on a narrow 3.5" board, where would a good cross-over range be.
I currently use a 200Hz cross-over on an 18" baffle.  I suspect the cross-over frequency will have to move way
up in frequency.  Perhaps too high for the 15".

This leads me to think that a 3-way or even 4-way would become necessary for a smooth response on open baffle.



lothar

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #13 on: 23 Jan 2009, 08:17 pm »


"Putting those Altecs in OB is like taking your 911 to motocross races IMHO - a strange experience, but may be fun."

Why?

He use this configuration:
http://lampizator.eu/SPEAKERS/PROJECTS/P23/Aaltec_Rusinos%20_Maximus_Lampizator.html
http://lampizator.eu/SPEAKERS/PROJECTS/P24/P24_monster_speakers_raal_altec_lansing.html
from lampizor site:
"The bass (two paralell drivers) are in the sealed box, and they must reach a bit higher frequency than the usuall 300 Hz to support the falling characteristics of the biflex, which is on open baffle. To avoid a dry and lean sound, the bass is first order filtered at circa 800 Hz."

He have 45cm baffle width, if I will make, let say 65cm, then biflex will go lower?
I want use Le Cléac’h horn form 800hz  the horn diameter is 42cm (16.5 inch)

sorry for thread obstruction... this was my last post

Thanks
L




D OB G

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #14 on: 23 Jan 2009, 09:14 pm »
I once made a speaker where the basic concept was to use each driver only below Fequal, by altering the baffle size for each driver, together with appropriate inductors and capacitors.  Picture at http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41297.60 reply 72. ("An OB design" http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41297.0).

Inefficient, but it worked, and if I was using a passive design now, I would use something along the same lines, perhaps with a higher Qt bass driver(s) (would make life easier in this instance), and certainly with Graham's T bass.  There were legitimate concerns raised about the theory by MJK, and yet it worked.  I replied with graphs to Martin in, I think, "for MJK", but I didn't find it in a search just then.

In a personal email I received on the matter, I was told about a pro who had been using the basic concept (successfully!) for years.

David

D OB G

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #15 on: 23 Jan 2009, 09:16 pm »
P.S but Qt no higher than 0.6.

Rudolf

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #16 on: 23 Jan 2009, 11:07 pm »
This leads me to think that a 3-way or even 4-way would become necessary for a smooth response on open baffle

There is much truth in this.
The driver should be as large as possible to move lots of air at low frequency and not too large at high frequencies to ensure omnipolar radiation.
The OB should be as large as possible at low frequency to fight the dipole loss and not too large at high frequencies to keep off-axis radiation under control.
Both are contradicting demands that cannot be met in a single driver or a baffle of a constant width.

John Kreskovsky discussed the situation in depth in http://www.musicanddesign.com/Dipoles_and_open_baffles.html, where he shows that smooth dipole radiation stops at the first dipole peak frequency, which ideally should coincide with the drivers onset of beaming. If you take both together it leads to the recommendation to make the effective baffle radius no larger than the drivers radiating cone diameter for the targeted upper frequency limit.

panomaniac

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #17 on: 24 Jan 2009, 05:58 am »
We all know that large drivers don´t radiate with their full cone at treble frequencies, but with the inner part only.

I'm also a bit uncomfortable with that.   In practice, it may be good enough to say this.  But in reality, I don't think it's so.  From what I understand it is the off axis interference that kills the highs.  This is strictly due to cone diameter/wavelength.
So beaming is caused by off axis cancellation.  The larger the cone, the lower the frequency where beaming begins.

Net result:  The cone radiates all the frequencies, but its diameter determines the off axis cancellation - thus beaming.

Graham Maynard

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Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #18 on: 24 Jan 2009, 07:32 am »
We all know that large drivers don´t radiate with their full cone at treble frequencies, but with the inner part only.

Net result:  The cone radiates all the frequencies, but its diameter determines the off axis cancellation - thus beaming.
Off axis cancellation but on axis augmentation, this with a phase roll (and notch(es)) as the apparent acoustic centre of radiation moves back towards the voice coil former/ dust cap with increasing frequency.

panomaniac

Re: One size fits all? Where baffle size matters.
« Reply #19 on: 25 Jan 2009, 05:38 pm »
I'm sure that Rudolf knows all this, he was just trying to keep it simple.
But it's important to note what is really going on.