[THE_ANSWERS]

I'm not against anybody making any point if they're willing to back their opinions with fact or reasoned conjecture.  Saying "X product is a scam" isn't stating fact or following logic, that's strictly opinion as clearly there are lots of folks that disagree.  Frankly, most of the folks that agree are on different forums but you probably wouldn't know that since you just showed up last week.

Making a reasoned opinion for serious discussion is great, whether in support or against some product or idea.  Calling entire sections of the industry "scams" without any support and intimating that customers of same are gullible falls cleanly within the modern phenomenon of thread crapping, IMO.

sorry   i feel like ive also been a victim of scams before and explaining every last detail is a waste of my time    i was ripped off big time long ago on a tonearm and ever since always look out .     ill pick isolation platforms for cd playes as an example.......   if the transport or cd player is designed right it wont need any help against vibration   that is part of the standard cd player product quality test    dont you think companies test their equipment??????   especially one like bryston would certainly test the effect of vibration on their players and correct any problems before selling it       so you see you shouldnt need a platform    i agree with the guy or gal that commented about earthquakes!!!!!!!   maybe you sell these things or something

why dont you tell me why im wrong instead of trying to  *berate me*      since you are so defensive it makes me wonder why   so why dont you explain that    c'ya

[Occam]

THE_ANSWERS,

Please try to stay focused. I said nothing about anti-vibration devices. All I did was reprise a comment made by KS, that I thought was spot on, and which I thought would benefit many participants here, especially you, if you hadn't been so dismissive. He simply said -

The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.

and you might actually learn something from a follow up question. Briefly, the recovery of a clock signal depends upon determining exactly where a signal goes from low to high or versa visa. Because the voltage changes do not have an infinite dV/dt, that determination is inherently ANALOG and probabilistic, leading to jitter. I'll leave it at that, as there are folks here, Pat, Audioengnr, GBB and others who have far more expertise than I, who will hopefully comment.

As to antivibration devices, you might want to inform the aerospace and medical instrumentation community of the frauds being perpetrated upon them. If you'd bother to peruse some application notes from the semiconductor industry, you'd find plenty of 'best practices' about physically isolating critical components like oscillators, DtoAs, AtoDs, etc... to minimize vibration induced correlated jitter, which is far more harmful than non correlated jitter. A lumped jitter measurement hardly begins to tell the story.

Ideally, these issues would be addressed by the manufacturer with respect to vibration, power conditioning and a whole slew of other issues, but components are built to a price point. Such is the nature of the beast. To reflexively cast aspersions upon everything you (obviously) don't understand, only compromises whatever valid comments you may have.

FWIW

PS - Apologies to Brystron for intruding in their circle on an issue not specific to their products, on  product which I've had little exposure to.

[DaveC113]

ifthe transport or cd player is designed right.....

Hmm, thats a big if   

Bryston equipment has a reputation for good design, but not all companies are in the same league or they may be building equipment for lower price points which requires more compromises.

[miklorsmith]

why dont you tell me why im wrong instead of trying to  *berate me*      since you are so defensive it makes me wonder why   so why dont you explain that    c'ya

Sorry , the onus is on you.  Why?  Because you are the one making bold assertions, not me.  That's how it works - 1)  You make a claim, then 2)  You back it up.  It's pretty simple.

I'm not defensive, like I said - any point you want to make is fine with me.  But, making the point is more than one sentence declaring Scammers!  Your "point" is really just unsubstantiated drivel.

The fact that you've been ripped off makes you personally more cautious but it doesn't mean everyone's out to get you.

I just received a very high-end preamplifier.  It came with a cheap IEC cord.  Do I assume the manufacturer believes that's the best sound choice?  Nope, it means he's left that choice to me as there are lots of variables in power cord choice.  Similarly, reports of vibration control success/voicing vary widely.  Most of the folks that report success find certain products work well while others don't.  Some folks like "Product A" and others "Product B" - like power cables, different ideas of what's "right".

While some player manufacturers probably believe in vibration isolation, achieving perfect results inside the player chassis is going to be difficult and expensive.  If it can be done after the fact by the user, why not allow that flexibility.  It surely will keep costs down and everybody's shooting for a price point, be it high or low.

The fact that this sub-discussion continues proves my point about thread crapping.

[James Tanner]

THE_ANSWERS,

Please try to stay focused. I said nothing about anti-vibration devices. All I did was reprise a comment made by KS, that I thought was spot on, and which I thought would benefit many participants here, especially you, if you hadn't been so dismissive. He simply said -

The problem isn't with the ones and zeros but with the timing between them.

and you might actually learn something from a follow up question. Briefly, the recovery of a clock signal depends upon determining exactly where a signal goes from low to high or versa visa. Because the voltage changes do not have an infinite dV/dt, that determination is inherently ANALOG and probabilistic, leading to jitter. I'll leave it at that, as there are folks here, Pat, Audioengnr, GBB and others who have far more expertise than I, who will hopefully comment.

As to antivibration devices, you might want to inform the aerospace and medical instrumentation community of the frauds being perpetrated upon them. If you'd bother to peruse some application notes from the semiconductor industry, you'd find plenty of 'best practices' about physically isolating critical components like oscillators, DtoAs, AtoDs, etc... to minimize vibration induced correlated jitter, which is far more harmful than non correlated jitter. A lumped jitter measurement hardly begins to tell the story.

Ideally, these issues would be addressed by the manufacturer with respect to vibration, power conditioning and a whole slew of other issues, but components are built to a price point. Such is the nature of the beast. To reflexively cast aspersions upon everything you (obviously) don't understand, only compromises whatever valid comments you may have.

FWIW

PS - Apologies to Brystron for intruding in their circle on an issue not specific to their products, on  product which I've had little exposure to.

Hi Occam

james here from Bryston:

No apology necessary - the more shared input (info) the better.

[THE_ANSWERS]

Sorry , the onus is on you.  Why?  Because you are the one making bold assertions, not me.  That's how it works - 1)  You make a claim, then 2)  You back it up.  It's pretty simple.

The fact that you've been ripped off before means you personally are more cautious but it doesn't mean everyone's out to get you.

I just received a very high-end preamplifier.  It came with a cheap IEC cord.  Do I assume the manufacturer believes that's the best sound choice?  Nope, it means he's left that choice to me as there are lots of variables in power cord choice.  Reports of vibration control success/voicing vary widely.  Most of the folks that report success find certain products work well while others don't.  Some folks like "Product A" and others "Product B" - like power cables, different ideas of what's "right".

While some player manufacturers probably believe in vibration isolation, achieving perfect results inside the player chassis is going to be difficult and expensive.  If it can be done after the fact by the user, why not allow that flexibility.  It surely will keep costs down and everybody's shooting for a price point, be it high or low.

you do have a good point on that one and i even agree !!!!!!!   bryston is pretty high quality stuff though and i would expect no real need for add ons   btw i dont feel like i have to prove every little thing or it would take forever to get a post out

[THE_ANSWERS]

ifthe transport or cd player is designed right.....

Hmm, thats a big if   

Bryston equipment has a reputation for good design, but not all companies are in the same league or they may be building equipment for lower price points which requires more compromises.

yes sounds reasonable so these platforms are so you can use cheaper equipment   well as long as the total $$$$$ is less than fine with me   but id sooner by the bryston and i believe they are not saying you need a platform for a high quality player like theirs

[miklorsmith]

Wouldn't you think a Bryston player would likely be used in a high-end, very revealing system?  One that shows even very small variations in sound?  I would.  It's fully possible this is more important in a great setup than one far less capable.

If you don't have time to support your "point", better to not make it.

[darrenyeats]

Although I'm known as a skeptic here I do like a bit of tweaking believe it or not.

Because you can't do a proper blind ABX test (wash my mouth out with soap) with these things you end up chasing shadows and wasting budget. Unfortunately a lot of these supports and widgets are very expensive. It seems a lot of the cost is because people are willing to pay rather than the cost of design or manufacture.

My listening room is on the second floor and has a wooden floor. It can vibrate a lot. I've found that putting the right kind isolation under my amp and speakers makes a difference to the bass response and character. In contrast, I don't know if I can detect any difference even when I pick up my SB3 whilst it's playing! I guess you need to experiment.

It doesn't cost a lot to experiment. I've found a combination of 'hard' and 'soft' isolation work well. By 'hard' I mean basic isolation spikes which work well especially if you place coins at the sharp end. I've found hard isolation tightens the bass but can leave the sound a bit clinical. By 'soft' I mean inner tubes or bubble wrap under a tile or board on which the spike/equipment rests. I've found this improves everything else. So a combination works for me with my current system.

I could be deluding myself of course. But I've achieved a result that makes me happy for - and this is my main point - not a lot of time or money.

And here's the kicker for me. A bigger improvement was made than with all the above by doing just one thing: moving the equipment stack away from the speakers (in my case behind the main listening position). I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that. Why spend thousands on support and tweaks when the equipment is being placed even nearer to the transducers than your ears? Go put your head where your equipment sits and play something loud and you'll hear what I mean.
Darren

[ashtarul]

There are obviously 2 opposing camps.  We are discussing audio equipments so let's stay focused. The first thread asked about anti-vibration/isolation cones placed under the Bryston CD player in the review and the difference the reviewer heard. I wrote earlier about being a skeptic and here's why. Most recording studios, where a musical performance is recorded, have their equipments SCREWED onto racks. How butch is that!! Even Bryston make 19-inch rackplace-size front fascia, which doesn't surprise me, with their successful background in professional audio. I had once experienced listening to music in a professional recording/mastering studio with a LAPTOP placed on the floor feeding a DAC as the source, and that was the clearest, sweetest, most realistic sound I've ever heard in my entire life! And no, there wasn't a single isolation cone under that laptop or the DAC.

Someone also mentioned timing between the ones and zeros and microphonic vibrations. Isn't the timing handled by the master clock or whatever dejittering device the engineers decided to use? And is microphonic vibration such a nuisance that the interference can be heard by the human ear? If so, show me proof and direct me to the website/reading material. I will gladly change my mind.  Hifi is essentially electrical engineering, thus everything can/should be able to be measured. I'm not an electrical engineer, just an audiophile who wasn't always a skeptic. Heck, I probably still have some isolation cones stashed away somewhere. I became a skeptic by trial and error, from my own listening experience. I guess if your experience made you a believer then so be it. I'm just sharing mine. And music is about having fun, so take it easy. Let's at least agree to disagree.
Ash.

[miklorsmith]

If a person said they heard a difference, who are we to say they didn't?

A lot of professional gear does have a "master clock" which directs timing operations of all the sub-parts.  Some of the really expensive home stuff is this way too.  I don't think any of the makers would tell you that even the most ambitious clocking schemes can eliminate jitter completely.  It's also not known exactly what's audible and Occam has correctly pointed out that correlated vs. uncorrelated (jitter) noise are not the same at all.  What role the mechanics of the spinning discs play I certainly don't know.

Hi-fi does involve a lot of electrical engineering.  But if the designer uses only his tools and not his ears in the design process, I don't trust them.  Theoretically, I believe all audible aspects could be measured but either we don't understand all the aspects, the machinery isn't sufficient, or we're not looking in all the right places.  This is old ground that will go in all the predictable directions.

Either one trusts what they hear and is prepared to accept unknown X factors, or they assume if they can't reconcile it in their own brains it doesn't exist.  Most of us fall on one side or the other.

[Vinyl-Addict]

I had once experienced listening to music in a professional recording/mastering studio with a LAPTOP placed on the floor feeding a DAC as the source, and that was the clearest, sweetest, most realistic sound I've ever heard in my entire life! And no, there wasn't a single isolation cone under that laptop or the DAC.

I'm assuming the studio was well treated with bass traps etc. so the clear, sweet sound you heard was probably due in large part to the way the room was treated, just a guess, I could be wrong. I do agree that it's interesting most studios do not use exotic cables and isolation devices. Chesky does use some exotic stuff and I would imagine there are other small studios doing the same but the majority just use pro gear cabling and regular AC cables and rigidly mount everything on a rack, and even on the floor sometimes as you stated........kinda makes you wonder...........

[timind]

If a person said they heard a difference, who are we to say they didn't?

If a person says they were abducted by aliens, saw Bigfoot, found the Fountain of Youth or whatever, who are we to say they didn't?

[BobRex]

I had once experienced listening to music in a professional recording/mastering studio with a LAPTOP placed on the floor feeding a DAC as the source, and that was the clearest, sweetest, most realistic sound I've ever heard in my entire life! And no, there wasn't a single isolation cone under that laptop or the DAC.

I'm assuming the studio was well treated with bass traps etc. so the clear, sweet sound you heard was probably due in large part to the way the room was treated, just a guess, I could be wrong. I do agree that it's interesting most studios do not use exotic cables and isolation devices. Chesky does use some exotic stuff and I would imagine there are other small studios doing the same but the majority just use pro gear cabling and regular AC cables and rigidly mount everything on a rack, and even on the floor sometimes as you stated........kinda makes you wonder...........

Have you ever read the accounts of Joe Harley re-wiring Kevin Grey's studio?  Kevin was blown away by the difference.  It seems that most studios use "pro grade cabling" out of dogma and the mistaken belief that there is no difference.  (That was Grey's belief prior to the re-wire, now he believes (understands?) differently.) The cabling difference can be heard on the Music Matters Blue Note reissues and has been noted by some critics.  So maybe, just maybe, some of this tweak stuff is real?  Makes you wonder what would happen if a studio went all out with the audiophile methodology. 

BTW - Mapleshade also used audiophile tweaks in the recording and mastering studio.  Mapleshade recordings have been highly regarded for their sonics. I wonder why?

[miklorsmith]

If a person says they were abducted by aliens, saw Bigfoot, found the Fountain of Youth or whatever, who are we to say they didn't?

 

Good one.

[THE_ANSWERS]

There are obviously 2 opposing camps.  We are discussing audio equipments so let's stay focused. The first thread asked about anti-vibration/isolation cones placed under the Bryston CD player in the review and the difference the reviewer heard. I wrote earlier about being a skeptic and here's why. Most recording studios, where a musical performance is recorded, have their equipments SCREWED onto racks. How butch is that!! Even Bryston make 19-inch rackplace-size front fascia, which doesn't surprise me, with their successful background in professional audio. I had once experienced listening to music in a professional recording/mastering studio with a LAPTOP placed on the floor feeding a DAC as the source, and that was the clearest, sweetest, most realistic sound I've ever heard in my entire life! And no, there wasn't a single isolation cone under that laptop or the DAC.

Someone also mentioned timing between the ones and zeros and microphonic vibrations. Isn't the timing handled by the master clock or whatever dejittering device the engineers decided to use? And is microphonic vibration such a nuisance that the interference can be heard by the human ear? If so, show me proof and direct me to the website/reading material. I will gladly change my mind.  Hifi is essentially electrical engineering, thus everything can/should be able to be measured. I'm not an electrical engineer, just an audiophile who wasn't always a skeptic. Heck, I probably still have some isolation cones stashed away somewhere. I became a skeptic by trial and error, from my own listening experience. I guess if your experience made you a believer then so be it. I'm just sharing mine. And music is about having fun, so take it easy. Let's at least agree to disagree.
Ash.

that has got to be one of the ***best**** posts i have seen on ac yet !!!!!!!!!  amen, bro        lots of people say they can hear a difference after they just spent serious money on something like a platform   why would they want to tell everybody they made a mistake or they are not sure if they made a mistake      this is why i suggested buying some foam at an arts and crafts store .   try that first anyway
that's my point and im not making ' bold accusations'    just being honest maybe painfully so for some   if you are all for these gizmos than i think the burden to prove they are worth the money is on you     moreso if you sell them!!

[miklorsmith]

Not much for listening, are you?  Resilient yes, responsive . . . not so much.

Here's the problem and why I'm giving you such a hard time:  People are having a discussion of which support devices they like, having a civil discussion with like-minded folks.  You swoop in and call the lot of them idiots for thinking as they do.  Yet, none of your complaint is refutable because you haven't made any point whatsoever except "I don't think these things work and I think you're stupid for thinking otherwise".  The discussion from this point can go nowhere good because it has derailed.

If you had any knowledge of the workings of CDPs and could debate actual function, we'd have something.  If you said "I've tried XYZ and they didn't work in my setup" we could go from there.  But, your chosen method amounts to nothing more than conversation killing. 

Your moniker THE_ANSWERS could not be more fitting, you have your mind made up about everything and are content to repeat the same ANSWERS to everything ad nauseam.  None of us know all this stuff but nearly all of us are at least aware of that.  We're all here to learn, not to hear your uninformed criticisms over and over.  Note, I haven't said one word about my beliefs on vibration control.  It's irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is if folks wish to discuss it they should be able to do so without unproductive distraction.  Hmmm . . . seems I was making a counterargument to this about another contentious issue a while back . . . 

[THE_ANSWERS]

Here's the problem and why your strategy is thread crapping:  People are having a discussion of which support devices they like, having a civil discussion with like-minded folks.  You swoop in and call the lot of them idiots for thinking as they do.  Yet, none of your complaint is refutable because you haven't made any point whatsoever except "I don't think these things work and I think you're stupid for thinking otherwise".  The discussion from this point can go nowhere good because it's gotten completely sidetracked.

If you had any knowledge of the workings of CDPs and could debate actual function, we'd have something.  If you said "I've tried XYZ and they didn't work in my setup" we could go from there.  But, your chosen method amounts to nothing more than conversation killing. 

Your moniker THE_ANSWERS could not be more fitting, you have your mind made up about everything and are content to repeat the same ANSWERS to everything ad nauseam.  None of us know all this stuff but nearly all of us are at least aware of that.  We're all here to learn, not to hear your uninformed criticisms over and over.  Note, I haven't said one word about my beliefs on vibration control.  It's irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is if folks wish to discuss it they should be able to do so without unproductive distraction. 

you are the one crapping   on me that is     i never said anyone was stupid so please ease up     you sound so angry i dont know how you can be a music listener and so uptight     who is the one criticising??????    read through the stuf i wrote here and see that it is valuable and can save some people money   ...............  they can try a simple low cost idea first to see if there is any effect      so you know i have done this and did well with a simple foam pad and a cheap technics cdp even near my speakers mission at the time driving an external dac ..... previously the bass made the cd skip especially cdrs ......  have you ever tried any of this?????????????????    eventually i moved the speakers farther apart giving me more room to space the cdp away from them and the foam wasnt necessary     i have used lots of different equipment and dont spend lots of money on it    lots of the stuff i have used is borrowed or traded with friends and family     i take pride in good sound on the cheap and thats where i stand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[miklorsmith]

Haven't called anybody stupid?

there are so many companies with rip offs just waiting for the same kind of guy that would buy a piece of toast with jesus face on it    a sucker born every minute like pt barnum would say    remember the green marker to make your cds sound better ??????   does anyone remember that ??????  don't we learn from these lessons ???????

piezo electric action??????  cds are   d i g i t a l  not analog
the whole point of digital is noise immunity
you sound like a great target customer for th guys that sell audio snake oil

if you want to waste your money on smoke&mirrors go right ahead

im not making ' bold accusations'    just being honest maybe painfully so for some

I've made my point, I don't think you understand it for whatever reason but saying it more isn't going to help just like yelling at the "foreigner" isn't going to aid comprehension.  If you really want to be a member of this community you would be well-served to try communicating in a post-second-grade manner with some thought and perspective.

[THE_ANSWERS]

Haven't called anybody stupid?

there are so many companies with rip offs just waiting for the same kind of guy that would buy a piece of toast with jesus face on it    a sucker born every minute like pt barnum would say    remember the green marker to make your cds sound better ??????   does anyone remember that ??????  don't we learn from these lessons ???????

piezo electric action??????  cds are   d i g i t a l  not analog
the whole point of digital is noise immunity
you sound like a great target customer for th guys that sell audio snake oil

if you want to waste your money on smoke&mirrors go right ahead

im not making ' bold accusations'    just being honest maybe painfully so for some

I've made my point, I don't think you understand it for whatever reason but saying it more isn't going to help just like yelling at the "foreigner" isn't going to aid comprehension.  If you really want to be a member of this community you would be well-served to try communicating in a post-second-grade manner with some thought and perspective.

looks like you have lots of time on your hands so why dont you spend it talking about audio instead of me?????    this is an audio site    ill pray for you