[chrisby]

Hi Jim,

 Yes, be quite interested to hear your review on these... I emailed Dave and got the prelim plans... big box! Makes the driver look tiny, but it's the results that count.

that's how the calculations worked out - you could just snap fastener a full length set of grille covers and the driver's won't look so small   

 I still want to try an old-fashioned TL for a pair of these.. wish I had more free time.

 Regards, KM

I'm not so sure that or even a "new math" MLTL would be the best enclosure for these, but as always, it depends on what qualities you're looking for.   

[floobydust]

 Chris,

 No grill cloth... it is what it is, but I do prefer less baffle area when possible. Still, I'll plan on building a pair of Fonkensteen enclosures in 2009 when I'm back in the US.

 I still like what I refer to as a classic TL... dates back to the mid-70's and the venerable Kef B139 oval piston bass driver. A couple colleagues and myself worked on a nice TL design which was amazing at providing clean, tight and extended bass. Arni (the main design guy for these) later did a small TL design for the B110 and coupled with a T27 which was great... he used them in the bedroom but they performed very well. This is more along the lines (no pun intended) of what I'm thinking for the F120A. Not sure how well it will work but worth a try IMHO.

 Regards, KM

[planet10]

but I do prefer less baffle area when possible. Still, I'll plan on building a pair of Fonkensteen enclosures in 2009 when I'm back in the US.

:^)

We aren't done yet. Next rev is bigger, but looks smaller* ... the Fonken-steen sounds killer (i am always please when i hit it out of the park on the 1st swing), but more importantly for us provided some very valuable developmental data.

*(and if i've pushed it to far, wil provide info for another rev)

dave

[JLM]

Floobydust,

I've been a TL fan since the 70's thanks to Bud 'Fried and a single driver fan for the past few years.  Thanks to Martin King and Bob Brines I have a F200A in MLTL.  Solid design, good workmanship, reasonable prices.

I thought about F120A but didn't want to give up efficiency, ultimate output, or 30 Hz in room response.  Yes, they beam at the top, but for single person listening (aim them) and old man ears they're a very good compromise.  (Would like to see/hear the F120A version of my speakers though.)

[floobydust]

 All, just an FYI... Madisound now showing the F120A back in stock.

 Regards, KM

[jrebman]

Update -- the 'Steens are unboxed and sitting on the stands and connected to the RWA Signature 30.2 amp... finally!

First impressions?  Like any small SD speaker, they need some play time to loosen up after being dormant for a few weeks, but that will happen today.  With the speakers just placed wood-to-wood on the stands and the stands just floating on the carpet, the mids were really recessed and there was excessive treble and bass, but a little repositioning, and a set of 4 Herbie's fat black dots under each made a dramatic difference -- enough so that I could sink in for an hour or so of listening last night.

Well, Allison Krauss never sounded quite so alive and real, and the detail in her voice and the other instruments started filling very nicely -- so much so that as things are now I have to say that these are already the most detailed (without being in-your-face about it) that I've ever heard, and on par with some of the best, cost-no-object speakers I've heard, and dangerously close to electrostats.

What Chris and Dave have been saying about these being pretty unforgiving and exposing all warts downstream from them is absolutely true, and I think in the long run these are really going to need a good SE tube amp -- probably 300B based, to really make them sing to me in the way I like.  Too early to jump to any real conclusions along those lines though.

Today I'm going to experiment a lot more with positioning and will probably end up spiking the stands to the concrete floor under the carpet -- generally not a great idea, but I think with the solid maple stands and the Herbie's dots, that it should be ok.

I also want to say that the design is gorgeous and Chris' execution is astounding.  Just beautifully built and finished cabinets down to the last detail.

This project was a long time coming but all indications are that it was well worth the wait.  I'm pleased as can be, and right now my feeling is that these are really going to do it for me for the long haul.  In the end I suspect I'll be running these high passed with some bottom end reinforcement, but that would only be to extract maximum dynamics out of the SET amp as the bass is really amazingly good as it is.

I also just need to comment on the EnABLing -- it is extremely obvious what this treatment has done, and indeed, the "hall of mirrors" acoustic effect has disappeared -- these play extraordinarily clear and clean, and again, very similar in a lot of ways to electrostats.  The treatment was done to both the drivers and the boxes, so I can't say for sure which has more effect, but together this was really something special and not quite like anything I've experienced with any other speaker.  And, I don't say that lightly.

Well, there will be more to come as the system progresses -- in the pipeline is the RWA Isabellina USB DAC, a nice top loading Phillips transport, a Bent TAP-X and some KCI Silkworm ICs for DAC to TAP, and all of these should be in the system and breaking in starting next week (except the transport, which is still a couple of weeks to delivery.)

Dave and Chris -- you guys certainly seem to have hit one out of the park with this design and build, congratulations!  Bud, the treatments are absolutely unmistakably noticeable and fantastic, and Kevin, many thanks to you for getting me started down this road!

-- Jim

[dublin78]

any photos?

[jrebman]

No, I don't have any yet, and it will probably be a while before I do.  There is one posted on diyaudio but I don't have the link handy, or remember which thread it is in, but I think it was mentioned somewhere in this thread.  If not, maybe Chris or Dave can post it.

I will get some pics of this entire setup once it starts to come together a bit more -- right now it's kind of a hodge-podge of pieces with nothing really in it's permanent location yet.

-- Jim

[planet10]

pre-bud

[chrisby]

Jim:

I'm glad to hear you're hearing more or less what I was during my unfortunately limited time with them.

Regarding the EnABL treatment; if I understood Bud correctly, his final work on them was adding the pattern to the enclosures, so of course I heard only the treated  drivers.  Based on a fair bit of experience with the FE127 in the smaller Fonken, I'd assess the enclosure treatment as a relatively minor contribution to the enhanced performance of this particular design.  A greater degree of improvement might be noticed in other enclosure types with more pronounced baffle diffraction effects.

Mind you, I wouldn't dare to assign a number or percentage to the effect of EnABL treatment of the enclosure, or to suggest that it's the "finishing touch" - 'cause in this hobby, I've learned that even when you run out of energy or funds to continue with the upgrading / tweaking, things are never finished.

 
 

[floobydust]

 Based on the pics Dave posted, it would appear Bud covered the die-cast mounting flange of the driver with something black and then put enabling dots on it. The cone also seems to exhibit a "sheen" now. Was there something applied to the cone surface as well or perhaps lighting? What s internal volume of these enclosures?

 Regards, KM

[planet10]

die-cast mounting flange of the driver with something black and then put enabling dots on it. The cone also seems to exhibit a "sheen" now.

The raised ring around the driver has a pattern ring on the top and its mate on the inside edge. The cone gets some gloss coat after the spots. We rebated the driver sufficiently so that we could fill the space between the ring and the extent of the driver with black felt.

dave

[floobydust]

 Thanks Dave,

 Interesting.... at first I didn't quite realize that until more closely looking at the pictures. I used 1/4-inch cork for the entire front of the simple ported enclosures I built last year. This resulted in the driver being flush with the cork surface. I'm now thinking about doing a layer of felt over the entire front and butt it up the raised ring on the driver itself... novel idea, thanks.

 Regards, KM

[chrisby]

Thanks Dave,

 Interesting.... at first I didn't quite realize that until more closely looking at the pictures. I used 1/4-inch cork for the entire front of the simple ported enclosures I built last year. This resulted in the driver being flush with the cork surface. I'm now thinking about doing a layer of felt over the entire front and butt it up the raised ring on the driver itself... novel idea, thanks.

 Regards, KM

that was me, actually

cheap PSA backed felt from the local craft store (Michaels) - easily removable from the die cast frame

[floobydust]

 Thanks Chris,

 Michael's is in Florida as well.. once I get back in December I'll pick some up. Did you manage to get a pair of F120A yet?

 Regards, KM

[chrisby]

Thanks Chris,

 Michael's is in Florida as well.. once I get back in December I'll pick some up. Did you manage to get a pair of F120A yet?

 Regards, KM

unfortunately, not yet - although I think we still have a pair FX120 to play with; like many folks, my hobby budget is presently running a bit thin

[jrebman]

Another update:

Kevin, you're going to love these!
Today I added the Isabellina dac to the system and using a new Oppo 980 as a transport and the changes were not subtle.  Everything Chris and Dave have been saying about these in regards to their sensitivity to the downstream gear is absolutely true.

I was playing them with the RWA 30.2 -- an amp I originally thought was not going to be a good match for these after my first few days of listening, but I just pulled my ad for the 30.2 and will be sending it back to Vinnie to get converted into a power amp version.

I also originally thought these speakers would be good mostly for acoustic music, but today I played some large scale orchestral pieces and some full tilt rock, and no problems.  In fact, even with the fledgling dac the dynamics and frequency extremes were very nicely represented.

I can't even imagine what all this is going to sound like when everything hits its stride.  Up until now I was really thinking a sub is going to be necessary and now, well, I'm still going to want one, but the sense of urgency isn't really there any more.

You should just get Chris to build you a pair -- he's good... really, really good!  Everybody who sees them just oohs and aahs over them -- both how they look, and today when Linda heard them when she got home, she was couldn't say much more than "wow" -- a lot.

Tomorrow I'll put the Carina backk, and one of these days, when I get a sub, I'll be high-passing the Carina at 100 Hz or so, and see how much more mileage I can get out of those 1.6 watts.

-- Jim

[floobydust]

 Hi Jim,

 I've been waiting for the update on these! Glad to know that they are sounding so good... I'm sure the enclosures are well beyond my simple ported enclosures based on the Fostex design and allow the F120A to perform much better. I also played a wide selection of music on my little guys as well... they've been quite impressive but alas, a sub, at the right time, will certainly help.

 Dave sent me some pre-release plans a while back, but it will be a while before I have a chance to build anything (speakers or electronics) as I'm currently living in Germany until sometime next year. This does give me a bit of time to do some design work (sans any prototyping) and I've got some new stuff on the drawing board for 2009.

 I'd be interested to hear your view on any noticeable change once they're better broken-in, but I suspect "the boys" may have already managed that to a large extent 

 Regards, KM

[floobydust]

 Oh, one last thing.... Madisound is once again out of stock on the F120A. I know that Martin King also bought a pair for his latest OB-H-frame Sub design... and apparently others have too. At this rate, they're going to run out of parts to make them with soon.

 Moral of the buying spree... get 'em while they're hot!

 Regards, KM

[jrebman]

Kevin,

Yes, they're probably as broken in as you can get giving how long they've been played, but my experience with fostex drivers is that a year of fairly consistent playing is necessary to get the surround to fully loosen up for the maximum resolution and finesse.  They're quite good now, it's the long-term settling in that I'm talking about, and who knows, maybe these will be different.

On another disappointing front, the Carina is not really a good match for these.  The sound is certainly sweet, but there is definitely not enough drive to get the speakers to sing the way they should.

This puts me in a real difficult spot as you can imagine.  Well, I'll let it play, try lots of different music, and ponder the situation while I'm away for a 3 day getaway this coming weekend.  I shudder to think...

-- Jim