[JakeJ]

Hi All,

I have the dreaded "L" shaped area  and want you good folks to chime in on which would be the preferred basic arrangement.

Current


Proposed


All opinions are welcome. Blue highlighting demonstrates that there will be three walls enclosing the speakers. Unfortunately the "front" wall becomes mostly glass with a door. The next addition will likely be an area rug, for acoustic and aesthetic reasons. One thing I have found is that keeping the equilateral triangle as far away from boundaries I get the most focused presentation.

I have been checking out the usual suspects:
Cardas
RealTraps
Ethan's personal site
Mr. Linkwitz's site
GIK Acoustics

I would also like to get a simple acoustics measurement setup, so rec's on mics, associated hardware, and a good software package are welcome too.

On a last note, all treatments will not be permanent as I plan to build a dedicated room in the basement that should yield ~2600 cu.ft.

Thanks folks,
Jake

[Ethan Winer]

You'll do best to rotate the setup 90 degrees counter-clockwise so you face the windows at the bottom. This has two big advantages:

1) It makes the left and right sides symmetrical which is crucial for good imaging.

2) It puts a "stepped" wall behind you which greatly reduces bass peaks and nulls.

The put the rack anywhere that's not at a reflection point. Behind you is best if possible.

--Ethan

[JakeJ]

Thanks for responding Ethan.

OK, the second diagram was the same as the first. Ooops! I have edited my post and put up the correct proposed diagram. Sorry for the snafu.

I think the "proposed" setup is what is what you are referring to. I get busy.

After the area rug I am thinking some panels to go over the windows and at the first reflection points and a couple of tri-corners in those front two wall/ceiling junctions.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,
Jake

[bpape]

I think that's a much better arrangement - though I'd still want to get the seating a bit more away from the wall behind you to mitigate some of the boundary bass buildup. 

The treatment plan sounds good to me.

Bryan

[JakeJ]

Thanks for chiming in Bryan. So move the entire equilateral triangle forward toward the front wall centering it between the front and back walls?

[bpape]

Don't know how much space you have to work with.  The SIZE of the equilateral triangle may have to change too but as long as you prefer nearfield listening - that's not an issue.  A couple things to try to avoid:

- Distance from front baffle to wall behind speaker the same as distance from center of baffle to side wall

- Distance from front baffle to wall behind speaker the same as your ear to the wall behind you. 

- Ears closer than 3' to the wall behind you.

Bryan

[JakeJ]

Right, too much symmetry can be bad. It's funny that the Cardas placement calculator places the speakers at 57.95" from the side wall and 56.86" from the "front" wall (the wall behind the speakers).  One thing I forgot to mention is that we are dealing with Quad 988's here so the Cardas calculations given are for dipoles.

Rough measurements put ~4' behind the listening position and ~5' behind the speakers. The triangle ends up at ~8' per side. Might think about some treatment behind my head too, eh?

Jake

[Ethan Winer]

I think the "proposed" setup is what is what you are referring to. I get busy.

See, great minds think alike.

I also agree with Bryan to not be right up against the wall behind you. But even if you're several feet away from that wall, you still need to treat that wall.

--Ethan

[bpape]

Agreed.

Also, with Quads, the game changes a little bit.  You WANT a little bass reinforcement from them so I'd likely swap it and be 3-4' from the wall behind them and you farther out into the room to maintain the equilateral.  You can get a bit bigger soundstage and kill a lot of comb filtering off the wall behind them by using diffusion.  Use absorption on the front wall in the middle between them. 

Also, with the Quads, there is a natural cancellation directly to the sides of the speakers so that distance isn't as critical to keep different as you don't get nearly the nasty boundary effects in the bottom end that you do with a standard type speaker.

Bryan

[JakeJ]

Thanks all who have contributed!

Just to make sure I am on the same page as everyone else. When I refer the "front" wall I am referring to the wall behind the speakers. This would be the wall in front of me when seated to listen. I have added another image with a directional reference,

[bpape]

That's the way I was referencing it.  The front is the wall you're looking at when you're seated and listening.

Bryan

[Ethan Winer]

The front is the wall you're looking at when you're seated and listening.

Thank you!

I don't know where the idea of calling the front wall the rear wall came from, but probably by someone who says, "I could care less" when what's really meant is I couldn't care less.

--Ethan

[saisunil]

Nice discussion! It is especially nice to have Bryan and Ethan providing useful help and education not only to the OP but also to all readers - so we understand why? not only just what!

Keep up the peace and harmony - we can use more of it for our hobby to survive the next generation

[JakeJ]

What? My mind is working like an acoustics manufacturer?

Hmmm...maybe I didn't get a defective unit after all! 

Uh, that was in reference to my brain. 

Thanks guys, I will post again with the final measurements of placement and how the "triangle of sound" comes out. One last question, Ethan you mentioned placing the rack elsewhere.

>snip<

The put the rack anywhere that's not at a reflection point. Behind you is best if possible.

--Ethan

I see this as a change in the way systems are setup today as witnessed by so many images of people's systems where the rack is centered between the speakers. Do you advocate moving the rack out of the sound field the speakers are trying to recreate? I guess a few more feet of wire is preferable to placing an acoustically damaging obelisk in the sound field? Which approach do you good folks advocate, long I/C and short speaker cable (I have mono blocks) or short I/C and long speaker cables? All opinions are welcome!

This just reminded me of my early years in Seattle as a young adult out on my own. [insert harp music] I found many apartments with built-in cabinetry for vanities, china storage, and even bookcases. For the better part of two decades I always looked for places with these features as I used it for stereo equipment. Ha! Who needs a rack? During those years quests only saw my speakers and my records. More importantly I always remember my stereo sounded great even though as a cook I could only afford mid-fi gear. My gear is much better now, thanks to a career change, and I can tell there in much more information on my favorite recordings than was being delivered by the old gear, but I have not experienced localized information, i.e. imaging where sounds appear outside the outside planes of the speakers, if that make sense. What I mean is sounds coming from a location to the right of the right speaker and left of the left speaker. Of further interest is I purchased my first home a year ago and it has an old-fashioned coat closet! Hmmm...with added ventilation this could be my stereos new home! Well everything except amps and TT.

This thread chats about one cd in my collection that I have heard do the imaging thing...just not on my system!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=47877.0

Also I apologize now for my sporadic responses as I work graveyard and I cannot use my computer at work to do more than lurk. If I log-in and start posting on shift I might get fired. Can't afford that right now so bear with me please.

Thanks all,
Jake

[Ethan Winer]

I see this as a change in the way systems are setup today as witnessed by so many images of people's systems where the rack is centered between the speakers. Do you advocate moving the rack out of the sound field the speakers are trying to recreate?

Actually, the middle of the front wall - the wall you face! - is a fine place for a rack. It keeps the front of the room symmetrical, and it's out of the line of fire for your speakers. It's also better for aiming your remote. I should have said only "not at a reflection point."

--Ethan

[JakeJ]

Hi,

Thought I'd update this thread. Areas of improvements are imaging and bass. This set up has the equilateral triangle at about 9' 3" (as big as I could get it) and there is ~3' between the back of a Quads and the front wall and ~4' between my head and the back wall. Normally the door is shut and there is a corner bass trap column there. With treatments I hope to reverse those numbers as the rack is in the front plane of the speakers and messes with the image a bit. Hmmm...me thinks I will have to consider moving the equipment into the coat closet and run long I/C's to the amps and dump the rack, TT on a wall mounted shelf.





The floor is open for further suggestions on treatments.

Thanks,
Jake

[bpape]

Better bass control, side wall reflection panels, area rug on the floor between you and the speakers.

As for the rack, if it were me, I'd get some good stands for the quads and get them up a bit higher and use a low, wide rack.  That lets you get it out of the way and still keep things short.

Bryan

[JakeJ]

Better bass control, side wall reflection panels, area rug on the floor between you and the speakers.

As for the rack, if it were me, I'd get some good stands for the quads and get them up a bit higher and use a low, wide rack.  That lets you get it out of the way and still keep things short.

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

Thanks for checking in. First, by better bass control do you mean what I have is no good or simply not enough? Second, on the sidewall reflections, my GIK swatch book is on the way! 

And last, the area rug. I have been agonizing over this for more than a year. I really wanted to buy this cool rug by Momeni:
http://www.rugs-direct.com/rugsdirectory/results.aspx?N=4294945973+4294963724+125&color_id=114119
But the reality is that I need to scale back, for practicality as much as financial. Now that I have pets it doesn't make sense to buy a $1000+ thing to walk on (and possibly have cat pee on).

[bpape]

What you have is OK - just not good enough to reach down really low in the bass.  You can certainly use them as part of the plan - just not the whole thing

That rug is really sweet but probably doesn't work any better for acoustics than a cheap one 

Bryan

[JakeJ]

What you have is OK - just not good enough to reach down really low in the bass.  You can certainly use them as part of the plan - just not the whole thing

Bryan

I kinda figured that's what you meant. The DAAD's do work and even my non-audiophile friends can hear their effect when I move them in and out of a corner. C'mon swatch book!

That rug is really sweet but probably doesn't work any better for acoustics than a cheap one 

Bryan

Yup, my feelings 'zactly! Another variable of the practicality factor.