DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones

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BrassEar

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DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« on: 22 Apr 2008, 05:20 pm »
Research so far indicates the following components in the CS2:

4 x 15-inch Eminence Alpha-15A Drivers

2 x Selenium D220Ti-8 1" Titanium Horn Driver

2 x 12" Round Waveguide 1" Threaded

48 x 18.5 x 2.5-inch baffle

Behringer DCX2496, 1 kHz xover, 48 db/octave. One would have to replicate the DSP settings that Emerald is using on the Behringer. Does anyone have any additional info on this?

Dmason

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #1 on: 22 Apr 2008, 05:52 pm »
Why replicate, when you can improve?

Something like

4X AE Speakers IB15   www.aespeakers.com
2X B&C DE250 compression driver www.bcspeakers.com
2X DDS 90' Waveguide  www.ddshorns.com 

Software based, low latency active crossover with future upgradeability

www.thuneau.com   

That is just for starters. Removing the crossover from 1000Hz in itself would make for a vast improvement, IMO. Using a dedicated wideband driver between 200-4000Hz would be another, and if one intended to do a 2.5 way, I would strongly recommend avoiding completely, metallic diaphragms in compression drivers, favouring those with polyester units, which are ALOT easier on the ears, and the good ones these days require no equalization. The metal units are designed for high output, long throw applications, using alot of power AND equalization. But if I were to clone the Emerald, I would likely use those components. The AE bass drivers and the T Huneau XO, for sure. -Which I intend to use, as well as the DDS waveguide horn, whose geometry was calculated by Dr Earl Geddes apparently. The pro audio B&C, and Beyma wideband/midband drivers look VERY interesting.
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2008, 06:03 pm by Dmason »

ebag4

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #2 on: 22 Apr 2008, 06:29 pm »
Those AE IB15s are nice drivers.  I use 4 of the previous generation in my IB for my HT.  THe units I have used the chrome phase plugs that AE uses in some of their other drivers currently.  Here is a pic of the AE IB15s in my IB:

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/page3IB-Gallery3.html

Mine is the second system down.  Fantastic bass!

BrassEar

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #3 on: 22 Apr 2008, 07:08 pm »
>>You mean like this?
>>Jeff

YES!!!!!
What drivers did you use? And are you using the Behringer xover?

TIA

rajacat

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #4 on: 22 Apr 2008, 07:32 pm »
Hmmmm....these designs are very interesting. Now I just have to find the time. :scratch: Definitely the woodworking aspects of OB construction are less complex, cheaper and less time consuming than box speakers. It would be really nice to have solid wood baffles.

Roy

JeffB

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #5 on: 22 Apr 2008, 07:34 pm »
jkelly,

Those look nice.
Are the baffles supported by any braces on the back?
Or is there simply a slot in the base they slip into?

ebag4

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #6 on: 22 Apr 2008, 07:37 pm »
.... Definitely the woodworking aspects of OB construction are less complex, cheaper and less time consuming than box speakers.

Roy

That depends on the OB, these took me longer than any box speakers I ever built:



Of course YMMV :wink:

Russell Dawkins

Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #7 on: 22 Apr 2008, 07:40 pm »
They look great - how do they sound?

If the upper baffle were tapered, wider at the top, like the Lyngdorf DP 1s (which apparently sound great as part of his radical system), these would be reminiscent of an exclamation point! I say radical because with a 300 Hz crossover to the "sub" the woofer is not really a "sub" and is an integral part of the design.

http://tinyurl.com/5waw6r
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2008, 07:54 pm by Russell Dawkins »

ebag4

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #8 on: 22 Apr 2008, 08:01 pm »
Hi Russell,
I checked out the Lyngdorf site, those are pretty cool, thanks for pointing them out.  My 15s aren't truly a subwoofer either, they are crossed at 200hz.  As for the sound, I am really enjoying them.  I have been using them for about 4 months.  I love the OB alignment, it's sound is effortless.  This is about the 5th OB speaker I have built and so far these are the most "full range" although there is an intimacy that a full/wide range driver gives you that I sometimes miss.

My apologies to the OP, I seem to have taken this thread off track, now back to the original topic.

Victor

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #9 on: 22 Apr 2008, 08:45 pm »
I am also in the process of cloning the CS2's. They are not available in the Netherlands, but I have allready all the drivers, the waveguide and the the DCX 2496.  The only thing I am looking for, are the settings of the crossover. I am looking for somebody who can mail me the config file for the DCX 2496.

BrassEar

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #10 on: 22 Apr 2008, 09:06 pm »
I am also in the process of cloning the CS2's. They are not available in the Netherlands, but I have allready all the drivers, the waveguide and the the DCX 2496.  The only thing I am looking for, are the settings of the crossover. I am looking for somebody who can mail me the config file for the DCX 2496.

Can you confirm that the drivers that I listed are correct for the stock CS2's?

Regarding the xover settings, I thought I read somewhere that this information is included in the CS2 user guide. Maybe someone who owns the CS2's could post that?

BradJudy

Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #11 on: 22 Apr 2008, 09:33 pm »
That depends on the OB, these took me longer than any box speakers I ever built:



Of course YMMV :wink:

Very nice.  I can envision the next step up with two 15" drivers and a speaker designed to look like an acoustic guitar.  :D

Ric Schultz

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #12 on: 22 Apr 2008, 09:48 pm »
Drivers are correct.  However, as Dave said....there are far better choices.

The CS2 settings are not in the user guide.

I am sure Clayton feels his Behringer settings are proprietary.  He has spent a lot of time there.  You are a naughty boy if you email these settings to someone.....go to your room!  However, you can do a pretty good job yourself. Position the speakers in the room as you would to listen, with the axis crossing slightly in front of the listening position.  Set the xover at 1000hz (48db per octave) and get/borrow/buy/rent a measurement tool......the Behringer equalizer with calibrated mic will do (I also have a "bouncing ball" Audio Control third octave thang that is very easy to see, but the Behringer equalizer/mic will show you the same thang).  Play pink noise and notice the deviation from flat.....now using the EQs in the Behringer xover set them until pink noise measures flat at listening position.  You might want to play with delay as well.  Of course, you might like a setting other than flat.  Have fun!
« Last Edit: 23 Apr 2008, 12:05 am by Ric Schultz »

TomS

Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #13 on: 22 Apr 2008, 11:32 pm »
I also consider the DCX settings proprietary to Emerald Physics unless Clayton says otherwise.  While I appreciate the DIY angle as much as anyone, it simply isn't appropriate to copy them from a legitimately purchased EP DCX and provide them to someone who has not purchased the speakers.  I've been asked several times by mail and PM already, and refused to do this  :nono:

jkelly

Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #14 on: 23 Apr 2008, 01:14 am »
>>You mean like this?
>>Jeff

YES!!!!!
What drivers did you use? And are you using the Behringer xover?

TIA


I used the Parts Express package.
I plan to play with a 1st order passive design with a L pad but will most likely go the active route.

I am also starting a second cabinet to redo my B200 and Alpha 15.

I plan to have a removable mdf plate on the top third that will allow me to build different
full range driver panels (B200, 103, 108) that I can swap in and out.




dorokusai

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #15 on: 23 Apr 2008, 02:00 am »
Awesome. I'd love to hear about them in contrast to the EP product.

Mark

ttan98

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #16 on: 23 Apr 2008, 02:30 am »
Jkelly,

I for one welcome you to give us a progress report of how you go with this CS2 clone project.

cheers..

BrassEar

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #17 on: 23 Apr 2008, 04:31 pm »
I also consider the DCX settings proprietary to Emerald Physics unless Clayton says otherwise.  While I appreciate the DIY angle as much as anyone, it simply isn't appropriate to copy them from a legitimately purchased EP DCX and provide them to someone who has not purchased the speakers.  I've been asked several times by mail and PM already, and refused to do this  :nono:

Yea, that seems fair. I think Clayton has already disclosed more about the design than most people would. What is most amazing about the CS2s is the quality of their overall presentation using fairly cheap drivers. I think I will take the Dr. Mason approach and instead of cloning the CS2s, just build something better.

My apologies to Emerald Physics and Clayton if I was inciting something unethical.  :oops:

TomS

Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #18 on: 23 Apr 2008, 05:27 pm »
I also consider the DCX settings proprietary to Emerald Physics unless Clayton says otherwise.  While I appreciate the DIY angle as much as anyone, it simply isn't appropriate to copy them from a legitimately purchased EP DCX and provide them to someone who has not purchased the speakers.  I've been asked several times by mail and PM already, and refused to do this  :nono:

Yea, that seems fair. I think Clayton has already disclosed more about the design than most people would. What is most amazing about the CS2s is the quality of their overall presentation using fairly cheap drivers. I think I will take the Dr. Mason approach and instead of cloning the CS2s, just build something better.

My apologies to Emerald Physics and Clayton if I was inciting something unethical.  :oops:
No worries at all.

I think in true the spirit of DIY, if you can learn by measuring yourself, tweaking, substituting, and trying alternatives to make a design better yet, then full steam ahead.  Clayton took the risk of starting with off the shelf parts anyway, other than the tuning itself.  I've seen lots of great suggestions here already, so it should be interesting to see what everyone comes up with!  Those prototypes look mighty nice for sure.

Dmason

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Re: DIY Emerald Physics CS2 Clones
« Reply #19 on: 23 Apr 2008, 06:19 pm »
I always support the idea of DIY innovation, however, the idea of cloning Clayton's thang, verbatim, is not on. There is a very sacred principle of intellectual property here, and I would like to know that that will be respected. The finished product Clayton has come up with is smooth as glass, and ALOT of people like it. Incidently, I think the asking price is more than fair

..It is pretty easy stuff to come up with a tuning for anyone's "cloned" rig here without all that, and the intelligence quotient on AC is pretty damn high, I would say; plenty of help about. How about something original?

 While I wish Clayton, and EP all the success they genuinely deserve, and endless hours of boxless magic to those happy owners, the dual big-cone + treble idea is not new, and in my opinion, it is an inherently flawed design, trying to mate big cones to small diaphragms.. I am not targeting EP here, but including JAMO, Hawthorne Duet, and any other of this kind.

The magic is in the message with speakers, and this is why the purest, "purist?" approach deviates from this concept, -abit- at least, and would include a dedicated wideband driver from below Middle C, (250Hz) or ideally, 150Hz, to at least two octaves above high C, which would be 2000Hz, with 3500Hz + being nice. There are several very musical options that reach cleanly much higher than that. This way, there are no bass frequency-induced IM distortions placed on the WB cone. The treble radiator can be tied in where the two driver's polar responses match, the higher up, the less critical an issue this becomes. Bass is just plain easy to implement, and can be done on just about any budget.

My own idea which has been brewing awhile has more to do with a sort of nearfield OB set up, using a single Lamdba IB15 per side, a 6-8 inch wideband mid driver, possibly the new Tone Tubby 6.5, or whizzerless EF8, both of which look VERY interesting, pending published specs, and unsmoothed FR measurements, ...but get some without the whizzer, which has been indicated as a possibility, [think group buy] and tie in some teensytweet that was copacetic with the hempster. The higher up you go, the less you need to concern yourself with the "quality" of the treble driver... Below 40Hz or so, use a fast, sealed sub, to fill in the fundamentals. This way you could have a low profile 18 X 30 sized OB well proven down to 40Hz even on an 18 X 18 baffle, a la Dave Leonard, Bob in St Louis, et al, all complete with dedicated drivers for their respective passbands, and no contamination in the middle. -And a sub, as an option. One high powered plate amp will do fine for both channels, providing lethal amounts of smack and slam. Once relieved of bass duty, even the most modest wideband driver, like my beloved 1997 Pioneer car 6 X 9's, and the most modest single ended tube amp will become real little monsters, with decently sensitive mains drivers.
« Last Edit: 23 Apr 2008, 08:30 pm by Dmason »