[Katonoma]

Hello All  and greetings from Old Europe

Dear MR TANNER,

I've been reading for some time now the Bryston topics here ; I'm quite entousiasmed by  your  brand , it's quality and all the engineering you put in developping your products.

So I 'd like to jump in and ask for your (very!) wise advice and there's a question for which I'd like some help

I want to upgrade coming from a PASS LABS X1  preamp + X250.5 power amp  to a pair of Bryston 7B or 28B monoblocks to drive my  THIELS CS3.7.

The question is shall I go all the way to the 28BSST  and keep my X1 preamp or would the 7BSST but combined with your BP26 be a wiser evolution. Do any have some experience in combining X1 to either monoblocks.

A friend of mine advised the 7B should be PLENTY enough, and with the money saved go for the BP combination simultaneously.

I'm looking for some tight bass but keep the openness, flow and ease I have in the mid and highs Ithe PASS combo offers.

My drive is a CEC TL51X with separate Audiomat Maestro DAC

What are your suggestions and recommendations? I just don't know which path I shall take....

Any ideas welcomes, thanks for your help.

Chris

[Katonoma]

Hi all,

Any other comments that could lighten my choice are welcome 

[James Tanner]

Hello All  and greetings from Old Europe

Dear MR TANNER,

I've been reading for some time now the Bryston topics here ; I'm quite entousiasmed by  your  brand , it's quality and all the engineering you put in developping your products.

So I 'd like to jump in and ask for your (very!) wise advice and there's a question for which I'd like some help

I want to upgrade coming from a PASS LABS X1  preamp + X250.5 power amp  to a pair of Bryston 7B or 28B monoblocks to drive my  THIELS CS3.7.

The question is shall I go all the way to the 28BSST  and keep my X1 preamp or would the 7BSST but combined with your BP26 be a wiser evolution. Do any have some experience in combining X1 to either monoblocks.

A friend of mine advised the 7B should be PLENTY enough, and with the money saved go for the BP combination simultaneously.

I'm looking for some tight bass but keep the openness, flow and ease I have in the mid and highs Ithe PASS combo offers.

My drive is a CEC TL51X with separate Audiomat Maestro DAC

What are your suggestions and recommendations? I just don't know which path I shall take....

Any ideas welcomes, thanks for your help.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I have the Thiel 3.7 speakers setup in one of my soundrooms and I will have some thoughts for you.

james

[James Tanner]

Hi Chris,

Well first --- welcome to the circle!

I have the Thiel CS3.7's - in fact there is a review on the circle which may help.

As for the 7B's vs the 28B's there is a difference in sound on the 3.7's. 

The 7B sounds fast and open on the Thiels with excellent bass and the soundstage is at the plane of the speakers and projects slightly forward and back. The 28B sounds a bit more laid back with the soundstage starting at the plane of the speaker and moving back and away. The 28B's have a greater ability to 'flesh out' the Thiels. If your Thiels sound forward and in your face in your setup then I would go with the 28B's. If you feel the Theils are a little laid back and you want a more up-front perspective then go with the 7B's.

We shared a demo room with Thiel at the recent Vegas Hi-Fi show in January (CES 2008) and used the 28B's on the Thiel CS 3.7's. Jim Thiel himself told me that it was the best sound they had ever had at a show.  Also George Cardas of Cardas cables was so impressed with the setup he was sending people to our demo as his quote was - 'that's the best sound I have heard at a show in 20 years'

So I hope this helps but recognize that every room is different and these are just general guidelines.

james
 

[Katonoma]

Thanks a lot James for this  helpful information.

By "Flesh out", I understand you mean you feel the amps have the ability to get more of the THIELs, to go way up to the CS3.7 extreme possibilities ? In other words they like "dissapear" more than with the 7B?? Am I right?

Also, I was wondering if you had any experience  in a PASS X1 preamp / 7B or 28B amp combination and do you think I would still get the improvement I'm looking for in keeping my X1 instead of going for the BP26?

Thiel CS3.7 are I believe having some success here  in France , I guess the fact that they are often demoed with Bryston amps/preamps in various shows is a reason by itself for a CS3.7 owner like me to want to look closer....and probably want to switch to Bryston . The impressions like the ones you quote from Cardas take certainly great part in our subconcious to always want to improve what we already have....I think this just nevers ends.

But since " the better is the enemy of the good " (quote translated from French) , it has played me tricks in the past.
Sometimes by wanting to improve just one part of our system we end up feeling it was maybe not worth the sacrifice....

Anyway , at this point, I guess everything makes a difference :the drive,DAC, cables, room etc...

Thanks again for your time in helping me make the right choices , it's really a pleasure (and a first as far as I'm concerned) experience.

Chris

[James Tanner]

Thanks a lot James for this  helpful information.

By "Flesh out", I understand you mean you feel the amps have the ability to get more of the THIELs, to go way up to the CS3.7 extreme possibilities ? In other words they like "dissapear" more than with the 7B?? Am I right?

Also, I was wondering if you had any experience  in a PASS X1 preamp / 7B or 28B amp combination and do you think I would still get the improvement I'm looking for in keeping my X1 instead of going for the BP26?

Thiel CS3.7 are I believe having some success here  in France , I guess the fact that they are often demoed with Bryston amps/preamps in various shows is a reason by itself for a CS3.7 owner like me to want to look closer....and probably want to switch to Bryston . The impressions like the ones you quote from Cardas take certainly great part in our subconcious to always want to improve what we already have....I think this just nevers ends.

But since " the better is the enemy of the good " (quote translated from French) , it has played me tricks in the past.
Sometimes by wanting to improve just one part of our system we end up feeling it was maybe not worth the sacrifice....

Anyway , at this point, I guess everything makes a difference :the drive,DAC, cables, room etc...

Thanks again for your time in helping me make the right choices , it's really a pleasure (and a first as far as I'm concerned) experience.

Chris

Hi Chris,

By 'flesh out' I mean it gives the Thiels a bit more 'body' to the sound.  Thiels can sound a little 'sterile' and 'forward' in their presentation so system compatibility is very important.

I am not all that familiar with the Pass preamp but Pass builds an excellent product and I would assume it would work just fine with the Bryston amps.


james

[Katonoma]

James,

Would you have the link to the review of the Thiels 3.7 you mentionned earlier?

Thks

Chris

[James Tanner]

James,

Would you have the link to the review of the Thiels 3.7 you mentionned earlier?

Thks

Chris

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=43966.msg426534#msg426534

[Katonoma]

Interesting article, James. I understand better what you meant earlier....

I was going through the specs sheets of the 28B and their appears to be a difference in Damping factor value beetween the one given on the manual (>500 at 20Hz, 8 Ohms ref. )  and the one taken out of the spec sheet/brochure (>300 at 20 Hz, 8 Ohms ref.) both downloaded at   http://www.bryston.ca/BrystonSite05/BrystonDocs.html

Is there a specific  importance on this value (usually the higher the better,no? ) as I understand it in resulting better "speed" and more body specially in the lower frequencies ? 

[James Tanner]

Interesting article, James. I understand better what you meant earlier....

I was going through the specs sheets of the 28B and their appears to be a difference in Damping factor value beetween the one given on the manual (>500 at 20Hz, 8 Ohms ref. )  and the one taken out of the spec sheet/brochure (>300 at 20 Hz, 8 Ohms ref.) both downloaded at   http://www.bryston.ca/BrystonSite05/BrystonDocs.html

Is there a specific  importance on this value (usually the higher the better,no? ) as I understand it in resulting better "speed" and more body specially in the lower frequencies ? 

Hi Chris,

I believe it is 500 but I will confirm.  It is not a big issues in the real world beyond a certain point as can be seen from this article I did for one of our newsletters a few years ago.

DAMPING FACTOR: is a measure of the amplifier's ability to control the woofer, and is measured by dividing the speaker impedance, (normally 8 ohms), into the amplifier's output impedance, (usually in the range of 0.02 ohms). The lower the amplifier's output impedance, the less the amplifier's output level is affected by variations in the speaker impedance. Also, since the woofer's voice-coil can act as a generator, within its magnet structure, the amplifier needs a low output impedance to act as a method of damping the woofer's tendency to keep moving after the signal has stopped. In the example above, the damping factor would be 8/.02 = 400.

Bryston amplifiers have output impedance slightly below 0.01 ohms, and therefore have a calculated damping factor of over 800, (though we conservatively rate them at 500). This parameter is affected by the speaker cable resistance. Even heavy 12- gauge wire has a resistance of about 0.0016 ohms per foot. (Remember we need to double that for twin-lead speaker cable). Thus, it would require only 6.25 feet of 12 gauge per speaker to have a total resistance of 0.02 ohms, (.0016 X 2 X 6.25 = 0.02), cutting a damping factor of 400 in half, to 200. Bryston recommends keeping speaker lead length to a minimum for this reason.

Keep in mind that damping factor is also affected by other real-world impedances, including the speaker-cable resistance, and the varying resistance of the speaker's own voice-coil. The voice-coil of a typical 8-ohm loudspeaker has a DC resistance of between 4 and 6 ohms. This resistance increases with temperature by 0.4%/Deg. C. It would thus require only a 25-degree rise in voice-coil temperature to increase its impedance by 10%. If it started with a DC resistance of 4 ohms, the extra 10%, (0.4 ohms), would reduce the actual damping factor to twenty, (8/0.4=20)!

It is worth noting that it would probably take only about 5-10 Watts to raise the voice-coil temperature by that amount. Add in the likely speaker-cable resistance of about 0.1 ohms, (10 feet of 16 gauge. cable), and it is obvious that the amplifier's contribution to the overall, real-world damping factor of the system is close to nil.

Whether the amp measures 300 or 3,000,000 under ideal conditions, the actual damping factor of the system will almost never exceed 100 anyway.

[Srajan Ebaen]

Hello James,

as a matter of personal curiosity and seeing it was my reviewer John Potis who reviewed your 28BSST and I never heard 'em... if a bloke wanted the sonics of the 28 as he described 'em but didn't need that kind of power: what else in your present lineup would deliver that? Or is part of the 28s' sonics tied to their very power?

Put differently, will Bryston (or have you already) scaled down the circuitry of the 28 to trickle into lower-power Bryston amps to give the same performance into lesser power requirements? If so, which model/s  would give that kind of sound?

Best.

[Panelman]

James,

do Magnepan woofers present the same damping issue as a voice coil woofer? I assume it is a least different but wonder how much of the, in my opinion, more detailed bass response of the Magnepan is related to a more controlled woofer panel due to different damping issues.

Thanks
Sean

[James Tanner]

Hello James,

as a matter of personal curiosity and seeing it was my reviewer John Potis who reviewed your 28BSST and I never heard 'em... if a bloke wanted the sonics of the 28 as he described 'em but didn't need that kind of power: what else in your present lineup would deliver that? Or is part of the 28s' sonics tied to their very power?

Put differently, will Bryston (or have you already) scaled down the circuitry of the 28 to trickle into lower-power Bryston amps to give the same performance into lesser power requirements? If so, which model/s  would give that kind of sound?

Best.

Hi Srajan,


Yes the 28B has incorporated some current ideas we have about power amps and it will filter down. We are looking at that now.

james

[James Tanner]

James,

do Magnepan woofers present the same damping issue as a voice coil woofer? I assume it is a least different but wonder how much of the, in my opinion, more detailed bass response of the Magnepan is related to a more controlled woofer panel due to different damping issues.

Thanks
Sean

Hi Sean,

I assume the lower mass of the panel would be the reason the woofer responds (stop/starts) faster so I do not know if the larger damping capability of a specific amplifier would be as much an issue.  I will ask Magnepan for you.

james

[KeithA]

Hi Srajan,


Yes the 28B has incorporated some current ideas we have about power amps and it will filter down. We are looking at that now.

james

Yeah, I'm waiting for the announcement of a balanced-design (BRIDGED) 300 WPC monoblock amp that is based on the 28B

I know the logical trickle-down point is the 7B & 14B...but an all-new balanced (BRIDGED) 300 watt monoblock design would be sweet

Keith

[James Tanner]

James,

do Magnepan woofers present the same damping issue as a voice coil woofer? I assume it is a least different but wonder how much of the, in my opinion, more detailed bass response of the Magnepan is related to a more controlled woofer panel due to different damping issues.

Thanks
Sean

Hi Sean,

I assume the lower mass of the panel would be the reason the woofer responds (stop/starts) faster so I do not know if the larger damping capability of a specific amplifier would be as much an issue.  I will ask Magnepan for you.

james

Hi Sean,

Magnepan says give them a call - (651) 426-1645 - ask for Wendell

So I assume Panelman means your sold on panels?

james

[Eric]

Hello James,

as a matter of personal curiosity and seeing it was my reviewer John Potis who reviewed your 28BSST and I never heard 'em... if a bloke wanted the sonics of the 28 as he described 'em but didn't need that kind of power: what else in your present lineup would deliver that? Or is part of the 28s' sonics tied to their very power?

Put differently, will Bryston (or have you already) scaled down the circuitry of the 28 to trickle into lower-power Bryston amps to give the same performance into lesser power requirements? If so, which model/s  would give that kind of sound?

Best.

That was my question exactly

[James Tanner]

Hello James,

as a matter of personal curiosity and seeing it was my reviewer John Potis who reviewed your 28BSST and I never heard 'em... if a bloke wanted the sonics of the 28 as he described 'em but didn't need that kind of power: what else in your present lineup would deliver that? Or is part of the 28s' sonics tied to their very power?

Put differently, will Bryston (or have you already) scaled down the circuitry of the 28 to trickle into lower-power Bryston amps to give the same performance into lesser power requirements? If so, which model/s  would give that kind of sound?

Best.

That was my question exactly

Yes the 28B has incorporated some current ideas we have about power amps and it will filter down. We are looking at that now.

james

[Panelman]

Hi Sean,

Magnepan says give them a call - (651) 426-1645 - ask for Wendell

So I assume Panelman means your sold on panels?

james

James,

Thanks for the info.  I am at least sold on Magnepans.  I've had them for 20 years now.

[James Tanner]

Which model?

I have owned all of them over the years all the way back to the Tympani series.

james