Recommendations for Speaker for all tube system?

Cheers! · « **on:** 7 Dec 2006, 03:16 am »

This will be my 1st venture into the realm of Hi-Fi so to speak. I find the quality/type of sound of tubes to be very appealing after listening to a couple (a Marantz 8B and a couple of Chinese tubed ones designed and manufactured in Hong Kong).

I'm thinking of picking up the Maple Tree Audio Stealth 60B as I enjoy Jazz a lot. Can someone point me into the right direction or give some model/manufacture suggestions for speakers under the 1000 USD mark?

I read the TNT-audio review on their sub 1000 dollar speakers and found it very interesting. From my limited experience I believe I prefer the front row, some what tighter bass note. I find I enjoy listening to music with the bass biased a little stronger.

From the review it seems the Dynaudio Audience 42 are a good match for what I want. However I'm very much a DIY guy. I work as a aerospace engineer, and have built countless boards/prototypes of electronics and cables so the thought of putting a speaker together doesn't really phase me nor does building a tube amp from just a schematic and parts list.

Any suggestions? What should I look for in a speaker meant for a tube amp system? How much a difference will a 1000 dollar speaker be compared to say a 2000 dollar one?

Thanks,
Jason

JoshK · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 03:25 am »

Sounds like you would like the Modula MTM's...check them out at www.htguide.com/forum >> Mission DIY Possible >> If you build them in a 50L floor stander (unlike my pair) you will get a bit deeper bass than I have. They would be great for Jazz, even though I dislike jazz and I still love them.

Cheers! · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 03:35 am »

Josh are you referring to Jon Marsh Modula MTM thread over here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11321

I have only gotten to page 3. I'm curious to know if this speaker design is more towards the back hall sounding speaker or the front row sounding speaker?

JoshK · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 03:39 am »

Exactly!

Mine are mid hall but a lot has to do with how much baffle step you use. I used a lot which moves you back in the hall. Use less (3db instead of 6db) and you'll have front hall. They are very detailed and tight without being harsh.

If you construct the xo's outside the box then you can experiment with baffle step correction until you get what you like and then install them inside.

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 04:00 am »

Well, I used to own DynAudio 42s and they were very, very good speakers in that price range. 40W of push-pull tube power will power them well.

Scott F. · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 04:22 am »

Hi Cheers!

I wrote those articles over at TNT a few years ago. sense then I've listened to a number of other sub-$1000 speakers. Since you are looking for something that is a bit more of a 'front row' presentation and is tube friendly, you may want to take a look at the Usher X-708. Heres the link to an article I wrote on them.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0904/usherx708.htm

These are a very nice, moderately sized bookshelf speaker. They are clean, have ample bass plus they seemed to play very well with tubes. With an 88db sensitivity and assuming you have a moderate sized room, a reasonably priced push pull EL34, KT88 or maybe even a EL84 (if you don't crank it too hard) should do quite nicely driving these speakers.

Besides liking them myself, the guys in the Gateway Audio Circle all seemed to like them the best from the three or four different pairs of monitors we listened to at a gathering back in August of 04.

Cheers! · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 05:11 am »

wow. Thanks for all the replies I have a lot of reading to do. It is true every single hobby at the high level as endless reading material. Restoring cars, mountain biking, road biking, traveling. You name it.

I guess I should also add a little bit about the listening area. It's not so good. The room is basically concrete and glass, as it's a condo on the 11th floor. with a whole wall basically all glass. Now I don't know anything about Hi-Fi or very little for that matter at the moment, I do remember my physics degree. Glass = reflections of sound waves = interference = nodes and anti-nodes = bad for Hi-Fi.

What I'm curious to know is are there certain speakers that do better in situations like my? Or do all speakers behave the same in apts/condos?

Thanks.

Canyoneagle · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 05:22 am »

FWIW, I have seen many tube enthusiasts who seem to love the synergy of tubes with Omega loudspeakers.

Although I have no personal experience with tubes driving Omegas, I thought I would at least highlight another possibility.

For context, I do own a pair of Omega Compact Hemps, which I am currently driving with a Yamaha Integrated amp (not the best match), and the sound is pleasantly forward in the midrange. I have looked into tubes, but have decided to go with a Red Wine amp (very tube-like, apparently) due to my off-grid plans.

The Omegas are very well priced and (from my experience) very well made. You can frequently find used Omegas at Audiogon.com, and Louis is cooking up some great new speakers.

Any comments from those who drive their Omegas with toobz?

Warmly,
Michael

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 10:51 am »

Tube amps typically exhibit poor damping factors, meaning that the bass gets flabby (exagerated and uncontrolled) especially deep bass.

If you want deep bass and tubes, I'd look at using a powered subwoofer. This has the additional benefits of taking load off the main speakers and amp which will allow smaller amps and increased system dynamics while allowing you to generate both bass and the rest of the frequency spectrum from both of their ideal room locations.

Look around AC for good tube amp options. Partsexpress.com just introduced a couple of affordable tube amps too (don't know anything about them).

The Omega Super 3 would mate well to a sub, OTOH you may not "need" a sub with the floor based version. IMO the small floorstanders make a delicate balance between more bass, poorer imaging, and getting lost behind furniture (enter with caution). Almost all Fostex drivers prefer (thrive under) tube amplification.

Try to set the room up placing the glass opposite the speakers. The room probably needs absorption, when selecting product keep in mind that this means board spectrum material (like high density fiberglass). Check out the Acoustics Circle below.

playntheblues · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Dec 2006, 01:13 pm »

If you are a DIY guy I would recommend following the link below, sound for dollar they are very hard to beat, they have built in stereo subs that are run with plate amps. so you tubes only have to handle the mids and tweeters which are 96 db eff.

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/speakers.htm

Imperial · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Dec 2006, 12:03 pm »

The internet was made to expand our horizons.
Therefore I'm gonna tell about a speaker most likely not found in the US.
Diz here...

Its called the Patos Symphonic II.
It has a paper mid/bass unit and a reworked AMT unit.
This AMT is handmade by the constructor, made inhouse!
It has a radiating surface of 10 in(squared). (Thats like 10 normal tweeters.)
This AMT is the best by FAR that I have ever heard.
I believe that this AMT unit cost something like 800-1000$ each.
Its not available to others I'm told. No chance.
No other speaker maker has this level of tweeter excellence at the moment IMHO!!!
Not even the Burmester B100 does what this unit does!!! That's insane!!!
It eats even the Raidho tweeter raw this here AMT unit by Patos. (The Raidho is spectacular to begin with)

Anyway...
Specs:
- 41-30000 Hz
Z: 8 ohm
Sensitivity: 87 dB,
Amp: 50-130W. (but will also work with 10W tube or more.)
But I reckon a good 20w+ EL-34 og something is really gonna make it sing!
(wxhxd) 19.5x98x31cm.
25 Kg /55 lbs a piece.

Its not cheap of course: some 4300$ the pair in norway, were it is manufactured.
I have of course no affiliation with them. Heard it, loved it, have to recommend it!
In no uncertain terms: This is a fantastic performer!
The sound is warmish, so a good strong neutral amp is best.

The Aliante Pininfarina and the Proac 1SC are other goodies for tubelovers!

Imperial.

Cheers! · « **Reply #11 on:** 8 Dec 2006, 02:50 pm »

Quote from: Scott F. on 7 Dec 2006, 04:22 am

Hi Cheers!

I wrote those articles over at TNT a few years ago. sense then I've listened to a number of other sub-$1000 speakers. Since you are looking for something that is a bit more of a 'front row' presentation and is tube friendly, you may want to take a look at the Usher X-708. Heres the link to an article I wrote on them.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0904/usherx708.htm

These are a very nice, moderately sized bookshelf speaker. They are clean, have ample bass plus they seemed to play very well with tubes. With an 88db sensitivity and assuming you have a moderate sized room, a reasonably priced push pull EL34, KT88 or maybe even a EL84 (if you don't crank it too hard) should do quite nicely driving these speakers.

Besides liking them myself, the guys in the Gateway Audio Circle all seemed to like them the best from the three or four different pairs of monitors we listened to at a gathering back in August of 04.

Scott, Do you have any experience with the Usher Audio X-718? I found a distrubitor/store here in Toronto, Ontario, Canada that sells them. I emailed the owner inquiring if he sold the X708s. He replied by saying, "I carry X-718 and X-719. X-718 is a better model than X-708. Cost is the same $950.00 Can."

I still have not scratched the DIY MTM speakers off my list yet. But the parts alone is going to be around 700 USD to build the x-overs, drivers, cabinent... etc... So Dynaudios for 1000, X718s for 1000 aren't bad.

Thanks,
Jason

Scott F. · « **Reply #12 on:** 8 Dec 2006, 04:17 pm »

Jason,

I haven't heard the Usher 718's but Bill at Response Audio has plenty of experience with them (he used to be an Usher dealer). Bill should be able to accurately describe the difference between the two. I'd suggest contacting him (see the Response Audio Circle to PM him). Bill has always been straight forward, helpful and one of the true good guys in audio.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #13 on:** 8 Dec 2006, 05:36 pm »

Quote from: playntheblues on 7 Dec 2006, 01:13 pm

If you are a DIY guy I would recommend following the link below, sound for dollar they are very hard to beat, they have built in stereo subs that are run with plate amps. so you tubes only have to handle the mids and tweeters which are 96 db eff.
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/speakers.htm

I'll second that.
I've DIY'd myself a pair of Solo's. Wonderful Machines they are!!
Currently working on the "bottom half" of the Duets (another DIY)

Bob

nodiak · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Dec 2006, 05:32 pm »

Cheers! I have very little tube amp experience, a medium amount with speakers, and a lot with reflective rooms. So here goes.
For jazz I guess you might mean to keep things smooth and somewhat warm, but still pretty clear and capable of strong dynamics. I like to hear the instruments range fully and love the tone of strings esp. in the lower regions - cello ,acoustic guitar, big hollow boby electrics, upright and electric bass. Strong percussion and warm reeds too ( I love Ornette Coleman but can't stay with his sonics for long). I love to feel the room acoustics where they are playing so tubes work for all that for me.
From "what I've heard" "generally" seems like the EL34 PP Mapletree would be good for that. Some recommend passsive pre's to maintain an amps characteristics. "Imo" preamp choice would be really important before moving on. A Mapletree forum member should have much to say about the amp and a pre to match.
Speakers are all over the place but I've found a larger cone to work best for dynamics at lower midrange/upper bass frequencies. I'm not challenging any of the recommendations so far but the Visaton B200 and 8" Hempcones have strong dynamics here, both are >93db so you would have tons of headroom (wouldn't want a preamp with any gain). I've tried both with open baffles and subs, work very great for very full and very dynamic - if that's what you want. The Hemp is used in 40-90 liter vented cabs too. The weaknesses are less refined treble, single drivers in open baffles need bass help and take some time for break in. This is the land of diy tho, for better or worse.
Otherwise I'm with Josh about MTM's - amazing headroom and dynamic ability and much more effortless than a single driver. From my experience mtm's are the easiest solution for all in onespeakers, sub can be optional. (For my non critical listening friends I have made 8" mtm's that are dynamic monsters and sound great, except the singer is 10' tall.) Here also is an easy and affordable TMM that might work: http://www.zaphaudio.com/Waveguidetmm.html
I think with a reflective room tho you will be in the boat I am in. It's hard to work on synergising the components without taming the room. In fact the more I do this the more obvious it is this is #1. I have a narrow room with hard painted plaster walls and a large window behind the speakers and am working on bass traps, absorption, and diffusers ( http://pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm and http://pmerecords.com/Broadband.cfm ) . The Acoustic Circle is a great source for this problem.
Good luck, I'm interested in what you come up with!

Don

Cheers! · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Dec 2006, 09:28 pm »

Thanks to all who have replied giving me their comments. I'm going to definitely research everyone's comments before making a final decision.

So far my system plans are:

Preamp: Mapletree audio - I need to discuss with Dr. Lloyd about his recommedations.
Amp: Mapletree audio Stealth 60B
CD player: Marantz CD5001 Single Disc CD Player <--- I'm open to suggestions here
Speakers: ???

So far my top picks for speaker based on reviews are:
1.) Dynaudio Audience 42
2.) Josh's Modula MTM's (I really like the cauer-elliptic filter he used for the crossovers. I'm after all supposed to be an expert in signal processing as that is what I took in university).... BUT I'm not sure about my craftsmanship
3.) User Audio X708s. But I have to find out what the difference is between the 708s and 718s first.

Part of the reason why I'm choose Mapletree is I like tubes. I listened to a bunch of chinese tube amplifers on a trip to Hong Kong just a while back. They were all Audio Space brands and they sounded pretty good. I'm not expert though. I surfed around trying to find schematics to build my own. I kinda still want to build this, a marantz 8B replica (http://www.plitron.com/PDF/702kobayashi1817.pdf)

I went to Queen's University for engineering. Dr Lloyd was my 3rd year professor for ELEC-353 Electronics II back in 2003. I remember he had a tube amp club thing he did a while back. I was hoping to buy one of his kits... but it seems not all his products are available in kit form.

THe idea for me is: Entry level, but with solid well picked components that will last a while. I want to enjoy music rather than the non stop pursuit of trying to one up and upgrade to the latest and greatest. I also want to keep it simple with only two speakers, a CD player, and feed in MP3s from a computer (yes yes I know, mp3 quality is no good, but I have a huge collection).

Double Ugly · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Dec 2006, 10:09 pm »

Quote from: Cheers! on 9 Dec 2006, 09:28 pm

CD player: Marantz CD5001 Single Disc CD Player <--- I'm open to suggestions here

Quote from: Cheers! on 9 Dec 2006, 09:28 pm

I also want to keep it simple with only two speakers, a CD player, and feed in MP3s from a computer (yes yes I know, mp3 quality is no good, but I have a huge collection).

If you have or can afford sufficient hard drive space, I recommend you consider a Slim Devices Squeezebox 2 or 3, rip your CDs to your computer and enjoy the luxury of having all your music available at the push of a few buttons. The sound of the Squeezebox (SB) can very, very good with modifications (see Bolder Cable), even rivaling some of the best, most expensive digital playback systems available for a small fraction of their price.

I apologize for the diversion from your expressed topic of interest, but you did say you're open to suggestions...

Regards,

-Jim

rajacat · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Dec 2006, 10:29 pm »

I'll second the Squeezebox recommendation. My SB3 is off being modded by Wayne and I'm going through serious withdrawal symptoms

. Once you are accustomed to the convenience of computer based music, it is hard to do without especially since there is no sound quality penalty assessed.

Raja

WEEZ · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 Dec 2006, 10:51 pm »

Cheers!,

Before you buy, do yourself a favor and consider one of the monitor offerings from Selah right here on AudioCircle. Available as kits or assembled, your choice. Or Ellis Audio, also right here @ AC. Again, kit or assembled- either from Dave, or from Jim Salk (also here @ AC).

Any of these would offer great sound and value without dipping into your 401k; or forcing the neighbors in your condo to call the cops.

(btw, if you pursue the Stealth amplifier, please post your thoughts here @ AC....many would love to hear your comments, I'm sure..)

g'luck!

WEEZ

JLM · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Dec 2006, 11:55 am »

Agree with Don, treat the room first. BTW highly directional speakers would help. Most designers go for wide dispersion to increase soundstage, but they interact more with the room. By directional speakers I'm thinking of front loaded horns, larger (8-inch) extended range drivers, and dipole designs (like the AMT tweeter above, planars, or open baffles).

Agree with the Squeeze Box route, if you're halfway computer savy. I'm not, and am part of a local network I can't control, so I had to give it up. But ripped music is the future, it provides high quality and convenience for cheap. You can start out with just a SB ($300 for the wireless version), power amp, and speakers (like I had, the SB has it's own volume control plus it connects to internet audio streaming). Then add a pre-amp and DAC down the road, or have the SB modded, to enhance the sound. If networking and being tied to a PC doesn't work for you, for 3 times the price Olive sells basically the same thing, but it includes a CDP and hard disk to replace the PC (except you still need a PC for the internet radio it offers).

Mapletree seems like a no brainer in your case. When selecting amps and speakers I start with two considerations, amp damping and combined output. Tube amps typically exhibit poor damping characteristics, in other words bass (especially deep bass) gets flabby (exagerated and uncontrolled). This is where limited bass response of the speakers and use of a powered subwoofer can be most beneficial. My rule of thumb for combined power is to keep the rated speaker efficiency plus amp gain at 105 dB or higher. Amp gain goes like this: 1 watt = 0 dB; 2 watts = 3 dB; 4 watts = 6 dB; 10 watts = 10 dB; 20 watts = 13 dB; 40 watts = 16 dB; 100 watts = 20 dB (see the pattern?). So an 89 dB/w/m speaker would need 40 wpc while a 95 dB/w/m speaker only needs 10 wpc.

Regarding speakers:

I've never liked Dynaudio speakers, but perhaps I've never heard them properly fed. IMO they're hard to drive (need lots of power and exhibit low impedance, really bad for most tube amps), are not dynamic (to be expected of inefficient designs using small woofers), have constipated bass (typical of many European designs), and are tipped way into the analytical (great for picking nits in the recording studio) versus musical (emotional enjoyment) scale. Most published reviews indicate the best results with Dynaudio speakers are acheived with 150 wpc or more of solid state power.

OTOH Fostex extended/full range drivers are tube friendly, relatively efficient, musical, and affordable. The Omega Super 3 (see vendor circle below) is a standmount from a wonderful guy, has great workmanship, and does amazing things with just a (secretly modded) $37 4-inch Fostex driver. For a couple hundreds bucks more you can extend the bass and go with the Super 3 XRS small floorstanders. By all means talk to Louis first before buying Omega.

Bob Brines offers very affordable plans, panelized kits, unfinshed assembled cabinets, or fully completed versions of a couple of different designs that use larger Fostex drivers. His transmission line based speakers provide strong bass response and his website can give you headaches as he tries to explain the math behind the Martin King transmission line MathCad design.

The Cain and Cain Abby is a tall, narrow design of impecable workmanship that uses a choice of two nice Fostex drivers. This speaker is wonderful for small ensemble musical forms and human voice.

If you're open to DIY Fostex has recommended enclosures for many of their drivers that are deceptively simple looking (perform beyond expectations).

But there are many possibilities. For example the DeCapo i (see A/C circle below) is distributed in Canada and has no crossover between the woofer and amp (and the tweeter has only a capacitor to protect it). It is about 92 dB/w/m efficient and well liked.

Good hunting and have fun.