To bi-wire or not to bi-wire. That is the question...

Jonathan · « **on:** 15 Jun 2003, 03:17 pm »

Hi guys,
Just looking to get some feedback on the pros and cons of biwiring vs. not biwiring my De Capos (I have the originals, not the 'i' model), as well as how much improvement might be gained from upgrading the jumpers to something different from the awful ones that come with the speakers (in spite of being reasonably handy, it sometimes takes me more than five minutes to get one of those damn jumpers in--sheesh).

To be honest, in my system I have not heard a dramatic difference in sound whether they're biwired or not, but I was interested to see if there might be a concensus opinion about it out there amongst other De Capo owners.

I'll be using my usual humble system: Unico integrated (allegedly en-route from Italy as I write this), Pioneer Elite PD-65 CD player, Sony NS500V SACD, NAD 533 with Sumiko BP. Interconnects are Kimber PBJ, speaker cables are 3 runs of braided Cat5 cable separated into a biwire configuration (as per an old TNT-Audio recipe).

Thanks for the feedback,

Jon

brucegel · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Jun 2003, 08:35 pm »

The decapos have no crossover so the logic of biwiring escapes me.I dont think it makes any difference except when the designer deliberately wants it to vis a vis the design.As for the jumpers ,I have the new model which comes with cardas copper jumpers.Give them a shout and they will sell you some,just tell them you have the decapo's.

cyounkman · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Jun 2003, 11:57 pm »

Hey Jonathan.
I feel your pain about those jumpers. They are truly awful. I recommend bi-wiring, if for no other reason than to get rid of them.

Whe I first got my de capo's, I was using shotgunned Kimber 8TC, so I was 'bi-wiring' in the sense that I had two sets of leads at one end, but it was still a single cable. The dealer who came and installed them for me wasn't happy with the sound, and recommended I upgrade the cable.

I first upgraded to a single run of Van den Hul D-352 Hybrid. I had to put the jumpers back on, but the improvement was impressive. Everything was fuller, harmonics were better, dynamics and bass improved significantly. Part of that was probably the result of a lower noise floor since the VdH's are shielded.

When I added another run of the D-352, the treble, in particular, improved--air and body. (The single run had been connected to the bottom pair of posts). The difference here, though, was not nearly as great as upgrading from an iffy/decent cable (Kimber) to a fairly good one (VdH). I don't know anything about the cable you're using, but if it's a choice between a better single cable and a lesser biwired, I would definitely go with the better single. You can probably get four 6" lengths (even unterminated would work) to bridge to the tweeter until you can afford to biwire.

Terry · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Jun 2003, 02:06 pm »

I agree with Chris; my experience has been somewhat similar.

I have been using the Magnan Signature speaker cable for a number of years now. When I went from the single wire Gallo Reference spks. to the DeCappos I did not plan on purchasing more Magnan - it is very expensive and ugly as sin. Nevertheless, I quickly discovered that running the Magnan to the DeCappo woofers and an old Tara Labs to the tweeter did noticeably improve the sound over the jumpers. Then I made a big mistake - I borrowed a second pair of Magnans. Well, with the Magnans in a biwire configuration, the sound improves quite dramitically. You do not have to strain to hear this improvement at all. So, I have ordered a second pair of the Magnans (ouch!). But I would definitely agree with Chris that one good pair of speaker wire is better than two pair of significantly less quality.

avahifi · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 01:40 pm »

In essense, the value of bi-wiring would be to move the common ground point of the drivers in the speakers from the ouput terminal on the speaker cabinet back to the ground terminal on the power amplifier. In theory, there would be a very small error signal on the common ground side across the speaker wire on a non-bi-wired system, (reduced as the impedance of the speaker wire is reduced (heavier wire). This error signal would cause unwanted interaction between the woofer and tweeter, etc. A rational approach would be to measure this error signal and find out how far down it is in level relative to the actual music signal, and more important figure out if it is a worse case error. For example, the interaction caused by the vibrations in the cabinet from the woofer actually moving the tweeter assembly on a small signal basis are likely much more significant. Not to mentions cross coupling of crossover parts such as the design blunder we discovered and reported on years ago in the B&W 801 speakers.

The way to get a better audio system (without throwing money at it) are to be willing to care to learn and fix the worse case problems first (which likely for almost all of you, are the acoustics of your listening room).

The worse and most silly way is to throw money at magic accessories and blessed magic parts and wires. Hey the real main reason to bi-wire is so that you can spend twice as much as you aleady did for gonzo speaker wires. Oh well.

Hey, you want better sound from you system cheap? Get a couple of 50 pound patio bricks, wrap it in nagahyde, and sit them on top of your speakers. (A sand bag will work too). Magic, better sound. Try it, you will like it. Got Maggies or similar big panels -- anchor the top end to the ceiling or back wall. You will like that too. Got horns -- wrap the outsides of the horn surfaces in black friction tape. More free magic. Of course you won't try this cause free magic cannot be any good.

Frank Van Alstine

brucegel · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 05:53 pm »

Frank, you can post here anytime since I am in the same camp you are.I have been feeling the way you do for longer than I care to remember that common sense has been trumped by mumbo jumbo and not that there aren't many mysteries of audio to still unravel but that they are smeared and twisted by ridiculous posits and goofy assertions backed by nothing more than slick ads.

nathanm · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 06:22 pm »

Am I correct in assuming that these speakers which have two sets of binding posts have a passive crossover with two separate inputs? Meaning that if you send a full range signal to either one it will be low-passed or high-passed accordingly? Or are you supposed to send them an already band-limited signal to start with?

Bi-amping makes sense to me, but bi-wiring does not. Isn't that just using two speaker cables in parallel from a single amp to the speaker instead of the jumper on the binding posts tying them together? Who came up with this idea in the first place? Quite odd. Heck, what will happen if I gang up 8 sets of speaker cables between the amp and one speaker? Octo-wiring!?

cyounkman · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Jun 2003, 09:39 pm »

Well hello everyone!

Nate: Thanks for stopping by. Is it just me or does dissension follow you wherever you go? [This is where I'm supposed to diffuse my aggressive sarcasm by inserting a silly emoticon -- here; this one :

Was that right? ]

I will answer your questions to the best of my knowledge, which is by no means definitive. The big-deal unique design feature of the De Capos and most (all?) other R3A speakers is the lack of any crossover on the main driver. The driver takes the signal directly from the bottom binding post and starts pumping. (It rolls off, mechanically at 40 hz or so and at around 3 khz.)

The tweeter has a single capacitor (I think) that acts as a high-pass around 3 khz.

As such, there is no 'crossover network' to speak of, so the old argument against bi-wiring that is based on two cables just connecting you to the same crossover doesn't really attach.

The only thing I can really 'prove' here (and I mean prove in the purely colloquial "I heard a difference" sense; not the "I bought an oscilliscope and wrote a whitepaper" sense) is that the foil connector doodads that come with the DC's are bad news; and getting rid of them, whether by bi-wiring or by using higher-quality jumpers (which I haven't tried), is to be advised. For what it's worth, Aaron Shatzman, who reviewed the DC's for The Absolute Sound a couple years back (and now uses them as his reference), came to the same conclusion. (With the assistance of set-up man Scott Markwell, who is now also writing for Hi Fi + and incidentally since I'm already rambling made up his own award to give to the De Capo's big brother the Royal Virtuoso)

For what it's worth, Reference 3A has seen fit to include fancier Cardas-sourced jumpers on the new De Capo i. Anyone out there played with bi-wiring those?

Anyone want to take a shot at the idea that using 4" jumpers between the two binding posts will make the tweeters a couple nanoseconds late?

Frank: Thanks for stopping in, too. We're always happy to get opinions from professionals.

Being of a decidedly non-technical bent, a lot of your post went over my head and I certainly won't try to debate it on that level. Your point with regard to fixing worst case problems is definitley a good one, and I agree that in most cases it is indeed the room. I know that in my case, acoustic treatment has made some important differences, but I am prevented from going whole-hog to get it ~80% fixed by constraints on room decor, etc. I have 4'x7' persian rug hanging on my rear wall, which damps the room considerably (with its wood floors and plaster walls); but I'm not aware of too many other acoustic treatments that I can pass off as art. (well it is art...) In my situation (which I doubt is uncommon), it's often easier to spend money on a cable or vibration tweak or whatever that makes a small/medium step in the right direction than to address a huge issue like room acoustics (or changing amps or whatever)--for reasons of economy, and of inertia.

My little illustration notwithstanding, though, your point is well taken. I am baffled by people who nearly re-spend their equipment investment on expensive cords, vibration gizmos, etc., when they still have some pretty crappy components.

Oh. Free tips are always welcome. I havent' really done patio bricks.. I have placed 11kg bags of #9 lead shot on the speakers. Didn't hear much of a difference, although I didn't do the critical listening audiophile dance. I have definitely gotten audible benefits by damping speaker cabinets in the past--the De Capos are reasonably solid given their price point.

Free magic, and its friendlier cousin cheap magic, are definitely the best kind. See my little vibration sink here...

brucegel · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 03:15 pm »

Well you may be accurate to say that the tweeter is late scientifically but in real world conditions I can't buy it.Great post on prima tweaks,essentially I am using vibrapods and sand bags all around my capitole player with nice results and a 35 dollar replacement power cord from subaruguru on "that other site" audiogon which gave the system a little more bass which is what I was looking for.

cyounkman · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 04:25 pm »

Quote from: brucegel

...Great post on prima tweaks,essentially I am using vibrapods and sand bags all around my capitole player with nice results and a 35 dollar replacement power cord from subaruguru on "that other site" audiogon which gave the system a little more bass which is what I was looking for.

I have a couple of the Absolute Power Cords on order from GTT. They are about $50, which I think is a reasonable price. I can report back on how they compare to my current Van den Hul MainsStream if anyone's interested.

Tube cd players are big-time tweakable. Are you using just vibrapods underneath? Experiment wth hard footers and constrained layers as well--I got better results that way.

John Casler · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 06:01 pm »

Quote

Hey, you want better sound from you system cheap? Get a couple of 50 pound patio bricks, wrap it in nagahyde, and sit them on top of your speakers. (A sand bag will work too). Magic, better sound. Try it, you will like it. Got Maggies or similar big panels -- anchor the top end to the ceiling or back wall. You will like that too. Got horns -- wrap the outsides of the horn surfaces in black friction tape. More free magic. Of course you won't try this cause free magic cannot be any good.

Frank,

100% in agreement with this. I have 135# sitting on my Sub.

It does three things:

1) it adds mass to reduce reactive movement from speaker movement
2) it dampens and controls cabinet resonances
3) it mechanically couples the cabinet to the floor

All three "do" seem to offer advantages in the physics of sonic transmission.

It would seem to allow the speakers (especially larger speakers like woofers) to actively create a "cleaner" wave form.

Thank goodness my "real job" is in exercise and fitness so I have thousands of pounds of dumbbells and barbell plates lying around

Terry · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Jun 2003, 11:05 pm »

Frank, thanks for your comments. As Chris has pointed out, it is always good to see a manufacturer chime in on important (?) topics.
I certainly agree with you about getting the room and speaker set up right. I struggled with the DeCappos for a couple of months (getting them to sound good but not as good as I thought they could be) until I finally decided to try the Audio Physics approach. A little judicious damping on the front and back walls, and some diffusion on the side walls, and I am very pleased with the results I have obtained. Probably the best set-up I have had in this room.

As far as biwiring is concerned, I really have no idea why manufacturers take this approach and I wish they would not. Nevertheless, Divergent Tech. recommends biwiring ("because they sound better this way") and there is no question that, in my system, biwiring is far superior to the supplied jumpers. And as far as the Magnan is concerned, well, I just have not found anything better or even close. Yes, it is expensive but it has beat out several other cables that are considerably more expensive (Nordost SPM, Cardas Golder Reference, to name a few).

I tried mass loading the DeCappos and did not like the result. Go figure!

Once again, thanks for responding to my original post.