High sensitive speakers advice please.

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crossroadazn

High sensitive speakers advice please.
« on: 25 Aug 2006, 04:58 pm »
Hi all. I just purchase a 10w EL84 tube intergrated and need a high sensitive speakers around $300 new or used for bed room, any suggestion is greatly appreciated.

Wardsweb

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #1 on: 25 Aug 2006, 05:03 pm »
Are looking for small bookshelf or stand speakers or floor standing? Have you thought about DIY?  My buddy in Houston builds a pair almost every month. http://fredt300b.smugmug.com/gallery/132721


crossroadazn

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #2 on: 25 Aug 2006, 05:21 pm »
Bookshelf is what i'm looking for.Thanks.


Bemopti123

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Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #4 on: 25 Aug 2006, 06:13 pm »
some narrow TL speakers take as much RE as monitors in stands.  These tower speakers will give you a much better presentation than Hi efficiency monitors.  An excellent pair of medium sensitivity, but extremely easy to drive speakers that sounded great was my olden pair of Epos ES11s.  They can be driven with just 10 watts.  Sounds punchy and fast.  Hard to fetch them used. 

Wardsweb

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #5 on: 25 Aug 2006, 06:57 pm »
With tubes and flea power, speaker choice will make the difference in joy or pain. I purchased the speakers on the far right in the picture above for $250 and drive them with a 6DN7 SET amp pushing a whole whopping 1.5 watts. They produce an amazing amount of bass and are very articulate.

JLM

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Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #6 on: 26 Aug 2006, 10:27 am »
crossroad,

IMO its better to have shopped for the high efficiency speaker first, but here you are, so lets start by asking good questions:

1. How big is the room?
2. How far back will you be listening?
3. What kind of music will be played?
4. How loud will you be listening?
5. Are you willing/able to DIY?
6. Are you interested in used?
7. What is the design of the amp (SET, push-pull, etc.)?

When I think bedroom system, a smallish room, sitting on the bed, can't play too loud (late night, neighbors/family considerations) come to mind.  So high spl's and deep bass are out, but higher efficiency with fairly tall driver placement would be in order.  Throw in your $300 budget and you'll be hard pressed to get decent sound even going DIY or used. 

For $300 plus shipping, assembly, and finishing (and using my assumptions above) you could get a very nice pair of Bob Brines FT-1600 Mk II:

http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/FT-1600_MkII/Main.html

wendell

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #7 on: 27 Aug 2006, 06:01 am »
Wardsweb,

Where to get more info on the Studio One Pi towers? 

crossroadazn

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #8 on: 27 Aug 2006, 07:05 am »
Well the bed room's about 10'x12'x8' and I listen to jazz and vocal only at low valume, most important is vocal and was thinking about single full range speakers like Omega, Tekton etc..
Thanks to all.

JLM

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Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #9 on: 27 Aug 2006, 10:22 am »
cross,

Even the smallest Omega, the mini-me, is $389/pair and you still need stands.  I've not heard them, but the Super 3 sounded very nice.  They obviously lack the bottom octave, but my guess is that they would integrate easily with a sub.

That small Fostex driver the Omega's use in the "3 series" is the FE127E and cost $36.50 each (plus shipping) from Madisound.  They're fairly efficient and synergize well with tubes.  Go the Fostex site and look for recommended enclosures.  If you can't do much DIY go to Parts Express and get the next larger pre-finished cabinet and fill the excess volume (ideally with damping material).  Total cost, about $200/pair plus stands.


wendell,

Here's the link to Pi speakers:  http://www.pispeakers.com/  The 2 Pi are good performers, especially for the money.  BTW the 2 Pi towers can be built from 12 and 16 inch pre-laminated MDF shelving with very few cuts.  IMO Pi speakers work best on rock music.

FredT300B

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Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #10 on: 27 Aug 2006, 11:56 am »
Wardsweb, Where to get more info on the Studio One Pi towers? 

I built the Studio One Pi towers using Pi Speakers' stock Studio One kit ($150/pr) in a tower enclosure I designed using WinISD. The objective was to build a nice looking, high WAF, high sensitivity, and very affordable speaker in a tower enclosure that coaxes good bass from the Eminence Alpha 8 without the loss of sensitivity that would result from baffle step compensation. The stock One Pi standmount enlosure's smaller volume limits the bass extension a bit, and I've found it's just as easy and cheap to build a floorstander when you're DIY'ing it. The result is about 95dB sensitivity and bass extension into the 40's for a total cost of about $250/pr, a good speaker solution for anybody having a SET amp in the 2 to 8 watt range who can't quite afford any of the high sensitivity speakers that are commercially available. The latest version I built is 36" high, 9.5" wide, 13.25" deep, with a 4" by 4" port.

JLM mentioned the Brines Acoustics FT-1600 as another alternative. Bob's design would be a very good choice for a 10 watt EL84 amp. I wasn't a Fostex fan until I heard the FT-1600. This speaker combines a baffle step filter to compensate for the weak bass of the Fostex FE-167E driver along with a MLTL design that further enforces the low bass. The result is the only Fostex based speaker I have heard that didn't sound bass-shy and overly bright - Bob demos it with a recording of the Bach D Minor Toccata to emphasize the fact that it will do pipe organ pedal tones with good authority. If you DIY, you can build the FT-1600 for about the same cost as the Pi One tower. The Pi wins out over the Brines with greater sensitivity and the "air" that results from a separate tweeter, but the Brines wins out with the cohesiveness of a single driver.

If you were looking for speakers for a 3 watt SET amp I would say you need at least 95dB sensitivity, but with a 10 watt PP amp you have more options. Just about any speaker in the 90dB and above range will do as long as it doesn't present a complex load to the amp. The Vandersteen 1C, with its 90dB sensitivity, first order crossover, and 6.8 ohms (+/- two ohms) impedance would be a good choice. These speakers typically sell used on Audiogon for about $400. I own a pair and recommend them highly.

zybar

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #11 on: 27 Aug 2006, 12:01 pm »
They aren't the most efficient speakers out there (but I don't think that really should be an issue for the environment you described), but you could get a pair of AV123 x-ls + stands and stay within budget.

If you wanted to, down the road you could have them upgraded as well.

I have a few pairs and the fit and finish is silly good for the money and they actually sound pretty good as well.

Here is a link to one of the very positive reviews:

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/Onixxlsp1.php

George

tvad4

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Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #12 on: 27 Aug 2006, 02:59 pm »
Wardsweb, Where to get more info on the Studio One Pi towers? 

I built the Studio One Pi towers using Pi Speakers' stock Studio One kit ($150/pr) in a tower enclosure I designed using WinISD. The objective was to build a nice looking, high WAF, high sensitivity, and very affordable speaker in a tower enclosure that coaxes good bass from the Eminence Alpha 8 without the loss of sensitivity that would result from baffle step compensation. The stock One Pi standmount enlosure's smaller volume limits the bass extension a bit, and I've found it's just as easy and cheap to build a floorstander when you're DIY'ing it. The result is about 95dB sensitivity and bass extension into the 40's for a total cost of about $250/pr, a good speaker solution for anybody having a SET amp in the 2 to 8 watt range who can't quite afford any of the high sensitivity speakers that are commercially available. The latest version I built is 36" high, 9.5" wide, 13.25" deep, with a 4" by 4" port.


What's the frequency response of the One Pi Tower?

rajacat

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Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #13 on: 27 Aug 2006, 04:05 pm »

FredT300B

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Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #14 on: 27 Aug 2006, 09:20 pm »
According to WinISD the F3 of the One Pi Tower would be 45hz and the F10 is 38hz. My only mesauring tool is a Radio Shack sound meter, which isn't very accurate, but it seems to verify the theoretical calculation - strong response down to 50hz, a bit down at 40. This speaker wouldn't be my first choice for classical organ music reproduction, but the bass extension is much better than most Fostex based speakers I have heard, and more importantly, the midbass is quite strong. It's a good speaker for jazz, blues, classical rock, etc.

tanchiro58

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #15 on: 28 Aug 2006, 12:15 am »
Hi,

I need help to build my own crossover for my high sensitive speakers, which have a pair of JBL LE175 16 Ohms, a pair of woofers JBL D131 12 inches 16 Ohms and a pair of Jensen RP-302A tweeters 16Ohms. The cabinet is like a JBL L100. Thanks in advance.

JoshK

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #16 on: 28 Aug 2006, 12:39 am »
tanchiro...check htguide.com/forum >>mission diy possible>>  there is a recent thread about JBL re-xo.  Dennis Murphy did an update on a pair of L100's.  He got reasonably good results with a new xo.  The owner is quite happy. 

I just won a pair of JBL 2123H 10" 100db midrange drivers on ebay.  Assuming they are in good condition (ad said they were) then I will be building a hi-eff pair of speakers.  I plan to mate them with BMS 4050ND compression drivers on DDS Eng-90 waveguides (Geddes style) and for the woofer, something like 18Sound 18" drivers...I forget the model off the top of my head. 

...But first I have to finish my Arvo Parts....which I am currently working on.   I cut over half the pieces for the woofer baffles.

Scott F.

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #17 on: 28 Aug 2006, 01:28 am »
Hey Josh,

Watch the impedance spike at the JBL's Fs. You may need to add a swamping resistor to flatten it out some. Are you planning on a PP or SET amp? If it's a PP, a little negative feedback will also help boost the amps damping factor just a smidge.

Bill Baker

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #18 on: 28 Aug 2006, 01:33 am »
Quote
You may need to add a swamping resistor to flatten it out some.

 yes, I agree. If using a tube amp of any design, I would recommend a simple impedance correction network be employed. Most tubes amps work at more of their potential when they see a flat impedance curve. A simply circuit would consist of a capacitor and resistor paralleled across the terminals right at the driver.

JoshK

Re: High sensitive speakers advice please.
« Reply #19 on: 28 Aug 2006, 03:45 am »
Hey Josh,

Watch the impedance spike at the JBL's Fs. You may need to add a swamping resistor to flatten it out some. Are you planning on a PP or SET amp? If it's a PP, a little negative feedback will also help boost the amps damping factor just a smidge.

I don't want to derail this thread, but thanks for the tip.  I don't plan to operate them that close to Fs.  I have a DEQX that I will use to toy around with different xo topologies before I commit to anything. 

As far as amps, the napkin sketches of an amp I am designing now is PP triode with NFB only around the output stage (partial FB).  I wanted to build a pair of hi-eff speakers to take advantage of tube amps I plan to build.  Its backwards from my normal logic to system building but its a secondary system, so what the heck.

I am not a fan of single driver speakers, just not my cupa.  I value dynamics, tonal balance and clarity above hyper detail, imaging and soundstage.  I also mostly listen to loud rock not jazz club or chamber music.  So I wanted to build a broadband non-horn hi-eff brute.