The VPI HW-19 Mark III

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Wardsweb

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #40 on: 31 Aug 2006, 01:38 am »
Wardweb,

I disassembled the TT just now...that's the same one that's in there now (Model PB, 600rpm, P/N 3203-001).

You thinking of selling it...do you know if it works? I already got a shot one, I want one that works  :wink:

PM me, if you'd like to.

Thanks, John / TCG

John pics of eveything and the motor running sent in PM. Got a VPI bearing assembly if you need one.

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #41 on: 31 Aug 2006, 02:47 am »
Thanks wardsweb...have answered your PM.  Will take the whole she-bang on the motor.

I have a good bearing (I take it you mean main bearing for the spindle/platter?) assembly...the heavy platter spins and spins disconnected from the belt now using Tufoil lubricant.   

Wardsweb

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #42 on: 31 Aug 2006, 03:14 am »
...the heavy platter spins and spins disconnected from the belt now using Tufoil lubricant.   

Are you talking about the engine treatment? You just use it straight out of the bottle? Wondering because they make one for cars, motorcycles, handy oiler, etc...

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #43 on: 31 Aug 2006, 01:50 pm »
Are you talking about the engine treatment? You just use it straight out of the bottle? Wondering because they make one for cars, motorcycles, handy oiler, etc...

The very same, wardsweb  :wink:  It's been used now on three turntables quite successfully...a layer of rumble that you don't think could be removed suddenly is...leaving you with more music.    VPI themselves recommends using Slick 50 for spindle oil (I think it's even in the HW-19 manual I have), but Tufoil is a much purer formulation of PTFE teflon lubricant.  What makes the worlds most efficient lubricant (Guinness Book of Records) excellent for your Mazda Miata and Suzuki (I read your web page  :wink:) is amazing for your spindle bearing. It'll never go to waste either...just use the balance in your crankcase after your next oil change and reduce engine operating temps (I can't verify and increase in power or fuel numbers...but the engine operating temps are easy to track using your dashboard guage).

http://www.tufoil.com/

The effect on my VPI was good (as it probably has a pretty good/fine/high tolerance bearing/spindle assembly), but the difference on my $50 JVC DD table I picked up on ebay a while back and my old Thorens TD-316 was actually a goosebump kinda' difference in musical pleasure.  If you can find your arm bearing on your Rega 250 tonearm...a squirt there might improve things rather dramatically, too. If you do find it, let me know where the heck I can find it on my 250  :scratch: It was easy to find on the $50 JVC tonearm (it was far away from the arm assembly underneath the table), but the difference was likewise goosebump city after the application of Tufoil to it (not quite the improvement as in the spindle bearing, but nonetheless an superlative improvement).

See here, http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22938.0, for my $50 JVC on ebay odyssey a year ago.

$15 in Tufoil goes a long way in improving vinyl performance and your enjoyment thereof.

I PayPal'ed you on the VPI motor...many thanks, John.
« Last Edit: 31 Aug 2006, 07:39 pm by TheChairGuy »

Wardsweb

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #44 on: 31 Aug 2006, 04:46 pm »
Thanks John- I'll have to get me some Tufoil.

I will get the parts boxed up and sent out first of the week. I'm headed out of town for the long weekend with my wife for our anniversary. I'll send you the tracking number when I get it.

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #45 on: 1 Sep 2006, 02:04 am »
Thanks John- I'll have to get me some Tufoil.

I will get the parts boxed up and sent out first of the week. I'm headed out of town for the long weekend with my wife for our anniversary. I'll send you the tracking number when I get it.

A-okay, Luther.  I'm away, out of the US, from Friday nite thru Thursday, anyhow (as mentioned previously).

Try the Tufoil...I've probably turned 3-4 (known) folks on to it and they all raved about it. It's slick - literally and figuratively.

creativepart

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 10
Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #46 on: 12 Sep 2006, 03:37 am »
I built a different DIY SAMA this past weekend with $8 worth of stuff from Home Depot. I thought you might like to see this. It's something to try with  your new motor.


TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #47 on: 14 Sep 2006, 12:28 am »
Nice, creativepart...I just got my motor in the other day (thank you Luther/wardweb...fantastic overkill pack job, too!)

I got to work on my version of the SAMA.

Originally, I received my VPI a few months ago and it looked like this (former owner picture):


Tho it wasn't the butt ugliest table out there....I just didn't love that wood/oak surround.  I also knew that it must be more prone to stored energy than the acrylic and stainless steel plinth...eventually, I'd ditch it to make it more modern looking (and perhaps sounding).  With it would go the springs...easy to do when you hook up a stand-alone-motor assembly on a VPI HW-19 series table.

Last night I built my 'new' VPI....

The pillar/leg supports with about 6 lbs of #8 lead shot inside each.  Formerly (organic) 'Fresh from the Field' pea cans  :thumb:


The top most motor pod.  Formerly my cat's Wellness-brand individual serve can


Motor pod, bottom showing the bolts/nuts holding it down


Motor pod with electrical taped bottom ballast (filled with 3.5 lbs lead shot)


Motor pod filled with 1.5lb lead shot and bottom ballast attached.


It ultimately needed two ballast units and the motor pod to be the same height as the pillar/let supports.  The 3 pc motor unit, filled with shot and the motor itself, weighs 10 lbs  :) It ain't going too far. That's Plast-i-Clay on the bottom...tightens things up nicely.


The final look of the new set-up





WEEZ

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1343
Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #48 on: 14 Sep 2006, 01:24 am »
I sure hope it sounds good, 'cause it looks sort of...well, um...ahhh.....

....like I said, I hope it sounds good...

WEEZ (who's always been fond of turntables with wood bases!)

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #49 on: 14 Sep 2006, 03:52 am »
It looks like a Basis table now, actually.

It's better looking than my last table, the ebay cheapie with 10 lbs of Plast-i-Clay gobbed all over it, I assure you :)

It looks better than the shots indicate.....you're just seeing the underside....never the prettiest place to show on a TT.

Besides, she has a nice personality  :wink:

creativepart

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 10
Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #50 on: 14 Sep 2006, 04:04 am »
I think I've found that the VPI sounds better in my setup with the DIY SAMA motor and the TT resting in it's base with the stock sorbothan pucks. Better that is, than it used to sound with the plinth supported by the individual "canisters." But you my be on to something. I don't know.

I really would like to try the springs suspension with the DIY SAMA. I'll need to get some.

Have Fun.
Paul green

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #51 on: 14 Sep 2006, 04:36 am »
I think I've found that the VPI sounds better in my setup with the DIY SAMA motor and the TT resting in it's base with the stock sorbothan pucks. Better that is, than it used to sound with the plinth supported by the individual "canisters." But you my be on to something. I don't know.

I really would like to try the springs suspension with the DIY SAMA. I'll need to get some.

Have Fun.
Paul green

Paul/creativepart,

Forgot to mention, and did not show up in pics, is that on top of my pillars/support legs, now filled with lead shot, are 4 squishy little absorptive 'puds' that I have around from LAT International.  They are called Vibra Killers and they are the most effective vibration killing products I've ever used.

http://www.latinternational.com/index.php/product/vibra-killers.html

You can't see them, but they are there, under the plinth and on top of each pillar/leg. I coulda' sworn the ones I bought supported up to 12 lbs each...these say only 7 lbs. If only 7 lbs each, they are probably not as effective as they could be as they are overtaxed right now.  I've tried sorbothane in the past (don't know if there is differnt formulations now) and found it to be far less effective than these little VibraKillers in a variety of instances.

Tapping with the top of the plinth anywhere or the wood shelf it sits on renders nothing noticed in term sof feedback.....so, I'm on to something  :wink: Or, maybe I'm on something  :scratch:

I need to change my belt, it's loose, and I think the erratic speed is more noticeable now that the noise floor has dropped with the DIY SAMA


Wardsweb

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #52 on: 16 Sep 2006, 03:24 am »
So you fired that puppy up yet? What do you think?

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #53 on: 18 Sep 2006, 06:40 pm »
So you fired that puppy up yet? What do you think?

Yeah, but I left the next day for 8 days of business and pleasure away from home.  Not much time to review it initially.

So, further review of it will happen next week.  I also ordered a new belt as it seemed really flaccid  :wink: and a new one will surely help matters.


TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #54 on: 23 Sep 2006, 01:08 am »
Alllright, put on the new belt (and talc as recommended by VPI) today and fired 'er up.

The noise floor really is lower now with the DIY SAMA...and it sounds a bit more solid due to new belt (old belt likely to have added speed fluctuations to the proceedings).

I like lots of what is going on...but I'm going to swap out cartridges some day soon (I have Ortofon X5-MC and AT440ml as backups ) to see if that's what's keeping me from really jumping with joy when its playing.

My previous JVC DD cheapie, with 9 lbs of mortite in and out, sounded more solid...perhaps a function of superior speed control of Direct Drive (JVC's version of it, at least).  My fave cartridge on that table was the redoubtably excellent value AT440ml to these ears.

Still, it's easier to listen long term to then any CD player I've heard or owned.


creativepart

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 10
Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #55 on: 23 Sep 2006, 03:12 am »
Try that AT cart. It is supposed to be a real sleeper.

I've been experimenting with lots of different carts, some of them really highly regarded (Shelter 501 II and others). But put a 20+ year old AT MM cart on my VPI  a couple of weeks ago and I'm loving the sound. Really, you can pick up these 1980's ATs on Ebay for $45 and they smoke today's $800 carts. Think about it. Some of the best cartridge designs were coming out at the end of the vinyl lifecycle before CDs. And, once LPs took off again, where do you think everyone started from with their new audiophile cartridges -- from the best designs of 1983 or so. All these new cartridge companies certainly didn't start from scratch.

I like my VPI on the stock base with sorbothane puck suspension and the DIY SAMA of course. So you might try yours back on the base.

Enjoy.

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #56 on: 24 Sep 2006, 08:01 pm »
Well, as I ponder my next move....I thought back to earlier experimentation last year with the JVC DD cheapie that brought me back to vinyl.

First thing this morning, I completely re-leveled my setup (since install of the DIY SAMA).  It was indeed out of whack...and things improved afterwards.  Funny, I found little differece at all with the direct driver level or not....belt actuated drive needs to be absolutely level while direct drive does not (?)

In fact, levelling (with bubble level) was found to be more overall effective in improving the sound than any combination of ultra fine adjustments to VTA, VTF, azimuth, tracking force or any combination of clamps or mats I've tried on my old Thorens TD-316 or this VPI HW-19 Mark III.  Again, on the JVC direct driver, it didn't improve things notably at all (possibly only a smidge).

After achieving some betterment by levelling the rig, I still was finding some sibilance from the rig with the VDH re-tipped Sumiko Blue Point that I have it attached to. I remember similar sibilance on the JVC last year (which I attributed to it's cheap design), but it went 'bye-bye' after I rigged up a damping trough (with a semi-circle of aluminum foil in front of the arm pillar/post)) with 10,000 cst silicone bath and an outrigger made of a snip of paper clip.  There was no better tweak I did than that one....bass tightened up notably (better damped), imaging fell into place, instruments took on greater space, clicks and pops were reduced in volume, it helped it track better (I don't remember one glitch on even records that had them previously after the install of the trough/paddle :drums:), it offered up a much lower noise floor (improving dynamics along the way),  highs were more extended (or sounded better, at least) and it removed the upper midrange glare that I had attributed to cartridge and or rig and or cheap arm and or........whatever (you know the audiophool game  :wink:

Frankly, nearly every weakness you attribute to vinyl in the debate with digital technologies was improved.  It sounded more 'digital' with the organic sonic virtues of vinyl still in tact.

It was pretty much the full monty upgrade...greater perceived improvement than 9 lbs of mortite inside and out, the van Alstine Longhorn mod, any platter mat I settled upon eventually, any clamp, any arm geometry I twiddled with - and doing all of the above did indeed help matters.  Guys like Max Townshend (of the 'Rock' TT fame) and Kevin Barrett of KAB (and SME and Eminent Technology, of course) that keep spouting the virtues of damped arms ain't joshing, folks, it's the real deal upgrade :)  Among or intertwined with the benefits was that it made any arm work with any cartridge, practically.  The AT440ML and the Ortofon X5-MC both benefitted equally and likewise made them sound more similar (better) yet differences were perceived more readily.

Soooo, ever the tweeker, I rigged a new trough and paddle from a a cut bottom of a flat plastic bottle and another paper clip snip.   This time I mounted it in back of the arm pillar; between the arm pillar/post and counterweight.  It was just easier to install there - much easier. (the snip was adhered to the arm with a small dot of Plast-i-Clay) and, of course, Vertical Tracking Force was re-set afterwards.

I'm listening to it now.  Despite only filling maybe a 1/5 of the trough with 10000 cst silicone, and the balance with 1000 cst that I had around, the benefits were profound and immediately noted: bass tightened up notably (better damped), clicks and pops were reduced in volume, imaging fell into place, instruments took on greater space, it helped it track better (I don't remember one 'glitch' on even records that had them previously after the install of the trough/paddle), it offered up a much lower noise floor (improving dynamics along the way),  highs were more extended (or sounded better, at least) and it removed the upper midrange glare.  All for $10.00 (the cost of a syringe of the silicone from TurnTableBasics.com)  :) 

I think greater benefit may be had as far forward on the arm as you can (ideally, Townshend's Rock tables have a silicone bath and paddle attached to the headshell...and produced the most fantastic bass I've ever heard on a TT when I owned one in 1987-1988).  But, installing it anywhere seems to be of benefit. I'm going to buy more 10000 cst and also 20000 cst silicone to see if this further improves matters....but I am now a HUGE believer in damped arms....no matter how good or expensive they are or what cartridge you have on them.

I'll take a couple pics to show everyone....but it's a tweek all of you can do and it will improve your vinyl listening sessions quite measurably for measly kinda' money. 

UPDATE: I forgot which one of you turned me on to Tower Hobbies (many thanks!), but I just bought some silicone there.  I ended up buying 30000 and 50000 cst weights as I noticed SME recommends 30000 cst and KAB supplies 60000 cst with their custom damping trough for the SL1200.  With 1000 cst already here, I can customize until I get the right damping needed from 1 - 50000, but I'll likely settle in at 30 or 50000 to just streamline things.  Best of all, it's twice as much in each bottle (vs. TurntableBasics; Tim is a nice fella' btw, I buy my record sleeves from him) for 75% of the cost and it ships from nearby Reno, NV for only $3.99 us Left Coasters  :)

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0097P
« Last Edit: 24 Sep 2006, 10:15 pm by TheChairGuy »

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #57 on: 25 Sep 2006, 12:34 am »
Pics....that's the bottom of either a water bottle (Fiji Water, I think) or a bottle of auto water remover (isopropyl alcohol) as the tray, a snip of a paper clip sized to reach into the trough, and some rug underlay grippy stuff to keep it from moving.  You can't even see it facing the table...it's all but invisible to the eye, but quite noticeable to the ear  :thumb:







The counterweight has a penny taped to it as the arm / counterweight didn't support the fairly heavy Sumiko cartridge festooned with the van Alstine Longhorn outrigger (in case you were wondering what that copper colored thing is on the back of the counterweight :))

And the white tape is teflon plumbers tape (maybe $4.00 at the hardware store in town); it did a so-so job of damping the arm tube and counterweight...but it's far outshined in value by the damping trough.  So, I may remove it in the future. 


jpv

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 29
Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #58 on: 26 Sep 2006, 04:03 pm »
I have a few questions. I have a hw-19 jr for 16 years now and it is still running like new.
1) I have never changed the oil on the bearing - shame on me. How do you do it, how much oil do you put back in?
2) I have a grado Platinum ref. on a Sumiko Premier FT-3 arm. There is a place to put silicone but I have
never used it. Would the Grado benefit from using dampening this way?

I have made a DIY sama and sandbox. The two working together really made a large diff in sound, the backgroung it really quiet.

John
 

TheChairGuy

Re: The VPI HW-19 Mark III
« Reply #59 on: 26 Sep 2006, 04:45 pm »
Hey John,

Welcome to AC...and the Vinyl Circle, in particular.

Pull out all that gunk in your bearing well with isopropyl alcohol and a long qtip (Radio Shack sells them with long wood handles and lintless for cheap).  Then fill it until it spills over when you re-insert the platter spindle into it...and sop off the extra that pools on top. You don't need much - a good TT like the VPI has pretty close tolerances inside, so there is not a whoe lotta' room to put oil in there.

Tufoil (about $15 online) is the best I've ever used in the bearing...it's super slick nature reduces a whole layer of grunge you never knew existed.  There are less expensive alternatives, and easier to find ones, but that's the best that I've found.

Grado's, I have heard and read, benefit rather dramatically to silicone damping.  Harry Weisfeld, Mr. VPI, recommends adding silicone to his JMW arms that offer them....

<< Fluid damping is available for cartridges that require it (Grado, Clearaudio)>>
http://www.vpiindustries.com/jmw10_5.htm

John/TCG

I have a few questions. I have a hw-19 jr for 16 years now and it is still running like new.
1) I have never changed the oil on the bearing - shame on me. How do you do it, how much oil do you put back in?
2) I have a grado Platinum ref. on a Sumiko Premier FT-3 arm. There is a place to put silicone but I have
never used it. Would the Grado benefit from using dampening this way?

I have made a DIY sama and sandbox. The two working together really made a large diff in sound, the backgroung it really quiet.

John